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Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2005.05.02 16:03:00 - [1] topic edited - Sherkaner Everyone snip knows the Zealot was built around the heavy pulse laser - a gun that used to rock, but now no longer qualifies. It was created as a miniature gankageddon, fully expected to be equipped with four HPLs, a ton of heatsinks, and used as a gank platform. That's why it has one less turret than Deimos, that's why it has no drones whatsoever. But hey, here comes the pulse laser nerf. Suddenly, HPLs with multifrequency have barely over blaster range, but no comforting fifth turret slot or 1000m3 drone bay. Give this ship -something- to cope with the amputation of its mojo - even 500m3 drone bay would suffice. trolling removed - Sherkaner
Meridius	Posted - 2005.05.02 16:14:00 - [2] Just use an ArmageddonÖ Only ship we have left so use it till it gets nerfed. ________________________________________________________
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2005.05.02 16:16:00 - [3] Drone space please. Both the Sacrilege and the Zealot should have 1.000 m3. **** diversity, bring on balance. /Elve New Video out! Watch me!
Meridius	Posted - 2005.05.02 16:30:00 - [4] Edited by: Meridius on 02/05/2005 16:31:58 Originally by: Elve Sorrow Drone space please. Both the Sacrilege and the Zealot should have 1.000 m3. **** diversity, bring on balance. I disagree. I see Amarr ships as pure turret machines. It shouldn't have missles and it shouldn't have drones. It was given less turrets for a reason, this ship was created with 'overpowered' heavy pulse. Now they they are 'balanced'; it should get a 5th turret. Something needs to be done. Until then, Armageddon for the win It's ridiculous that non-amarr ships have more turrets in the first place. Minmatar, Gallente having more turrets as well as Caldari having the same amount throws RP out the door completely. As TomB put it a long time ago, amarr are the 'turret humpers' of eve. ________________________________________________________
F4ze	Posted - 2005.05.02 16:34:00 - [5] 10-33km range for HPL II is right where a short range laser SHOULD be. If you want range, fit beams.
LUKEC	Posted - 2005.05.02 16:35:00 - [6] Originally by: Elve Sorrow Drone space please. Both the Sacrilege and the Zealot should have 1.000 m3. ** diversity, bring on balance. Then Ishtar needs 5k m3 basic & deimos like 2k m3... Amarr ships really suck with pulse nerf(they nerfed amarr, arma still works good enough)... but still you can hit with Heavy pulseII like 20km+falloff with standard ammo(it used to be UV, now it is standard, dunno if it is any good), so you get like 30km range with long range ammo. Now tell me what ship you cannot hit at 20km with heavy pulse. And zealot does more dmg than deimos, as there is no need to tank it all that much as deimos(deimos can put like 3dmg mods max as you need to have 1x hardener, 1x aru, 1x pduII if you want to fit ionsII). Zealot with 5x dmg mods does more dmg than deimos. And you can any inty messing around etc. Oh and some more details: zealot can use AB in combat, flying like 400m/s with 125m sig. Deimos is slow *** with biggest HAC sig... and can only approach like huge moon(800m sig minimum.). And just a little nagging detail: zealot hits deimos on 1000m orbit, 500m orbit with cruiser means that you will have speed like 0m/s most of the time. The ships that are most nerfed are probably malediction & apoc(npc setups, tach sniper is ok). Retribution actually can fit t2 medium beams with webby and tank on low. HACs are ok. Every has its uses, even t2 caracal bastard - It is best t2 npc ship(and that's what 50% of eve population does most of the time(and another 35% are mining)).
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2005.05.02 16:41:00 - [7] So because Zealot with 5 damage mods does more damage than Deimos with none, it should be left alone? Love your logic.
theRaptor	Posted - 2005.05.02 16:42:00 - [8] Originally by: Meridius Edited by: Meridius on 02/05/2005 16:31:58 Originally by: Elve Sorrow Drone space please. Both the Sacrilege and the Zealot should have 1.000 m3. **** diversity, bring on balance. I disagree. I see Amarr ships as pure turret machines. It shouldn't have missles and it shouldn't have drones. It was given less turrets for a reason, this ship was created with 'overpowered' heavy pulse. Now they they are 'balanced'; it should get a 5th turret. Something needs to be done. Until then, Armageddon for the win It's ridiculous that non-amarr ships have more turrets in the first place. Minmatar, Gallente having more turrets as well as Caldari having the same amount throws RP out the door completely. As TomB put it a long time ago, amarr are the 'turret humpers' of eve. 100% Agree (And I dont even fly Zealots). I still weep for my heavy pulse --------------------------------------------------
Hellek	Posted - 2005.05.02 16:43:00 - [9] a grid and cpu upgrade, so that it has no difficulties fitting 4 heavy beam II would be another possibility to boost it a bit / give it more versatility.
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2005.05.02 16:46:00 - [10] Quote: 10-33km range for HPL II is right where a short range laser SHOULD be. If you want range, fit beams. Ummmm. 10-33km range for HPL II is the range it gets with the Zealot's 40% optimal range bonus for HAC L4 skill. Without said bonus the max range should be around 24km for radio, and around 7km for MF. Tell me there isn't something wrong, please.
Waagaa Ktlehr	Posted - 2005.05.02 16:47:00 - [11] Yup, operational range with MF within 10k means webbing range, means you're better off fitting blasters on a blasterboat anyway. This thing is useless 'cept for a sniping-ish setup, but then again with the back tracking and stuff it's almost better to just use a geddon with megapulses. ------------------------------------------ I am a love machine, feeding my fantasy, give me a kiss or three, have fun!
Kaeten	Posted - 2005.05.02 16:53:00 - [12] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Everyone with two brain cells to rub together knows the Zealot was built around the heavy pulse laser - a gun that used to rock, but now no longer qualifies. It was created as a miniature gankageddon, fully expected to be equipped with four HPLs, a ton of heatsinks, and used as a gank platform. That's why it has one less turret than Deimos, that's why it has no drones whatsoever. But hey, here comes the pulse laser nerf. Suddenly, HPLs with multifrequency have barely over blaster range, but no comforting fifth turret slot or 1000m3 drone bay. Give this ship -something- to cope with the amputation of its mojo - even 500m3 drone bay would suffice. oo plz, what range do blasters have compared to pulses? ___________________________________ Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante
F4ze	Posted - 2005.05.02 16:58:00 - [13] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Quote: 10-33km range for HPL II is right where a short range laser SHOULD be. If you want range, fit beams. Ummmm. 10-33km range for HPL II is the range it gets with the Zealot's 40% optimal range bonus for HAC L4 skill. Without said bonus the max range should be around 24km for radio, and around 7km for MF. Tell me there isn't something wrong, please. I fought HAC vs HAC with Nilkarus in his Sacriledge using HPL II's and I used electron blaster II's. If he webs me @10km there is no way I can get in blaster range before I die, even if I have him webbed too. Throw me another one of your arguments please.
Meridius	Posted - 2005.05.02 17:07:00 - [14] Edited by: Meridius on 02/05/2005 17:07:32 Originally by: Kaeten oo plz, what range do blasters have compared to pulses? oo plz, what damage to blasters do compared to pulses and you have an extra turret + 1000m3 of drones + around 550 more overall HP + an mwd bonus so you can use mwd plus tank + better armour resist bonus's ect ect. Originally by: F4ze 10-33km range for HPL II is right where a short range laser SHOULD be. If you want range, fit beams. Yes use beams and lose your 70m ship to an interceptor. Yes seriously, you won't be able to hit an inty period without a web and even that isn't 100% effective. If you use rails on a Deimos you have drones, if you use rails on an Eagle you missles, if you use howitzers on a Muninn you have drones + missles. A Zealot's core defense is it's turrets, it has nothing beyond that. Interceptors being as common as they are, if you do not have a setup that can properly deal with them, you will die. Sadly, it's far easier to just use a Armageddon. ________________________________________________________
F4ze	Posted - 2005.05.02 17:13:00 - [15] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu snip You were the first one to point at the HPL range without the zealot's bonuses, so I used the example with the sacriledge. Second of all, you didn't have all the information from that fight, I was in an Ishtar. We were both using an AB and both had a 90% webifier. A 500m¦ drone bay for the Zealot could be an option, but your main point imo was that the HPL is worthless since the nerf. And I am trying to show you that it isn't.
Meridius	Posted - 2005.05.02 17:14:00 - [16] Originally by: F4ze I fought HAC vs HAC with Nilkarus in his Sacriledge using HPL II's and I used electron blaster II's. If he webs me @10km there is no way I can get in blaster range before I die, even if I have him webbed too. Throw me another one of your arguments please. Wait, did you get killed by a Sacrilege on the field? No you didn't, you got beaten by the ultimate tank cruiser in a controlled situation with a corp mate. That ship is near useless when it comes to pvp because it does less damage then a ***** Taranis. Oh but it can tank great, oh joy to the ***** world... The only reason it's gets any waves as being good is because of naive people getting impressed by the fact that it tanks so well. I bet if it had 1 turret point people would still sing love stories about it based souly on it's tanking ability. It's sad really. ________________________________________________________
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2005.05.02 17:20:00 - [17] Ok, fine, I'll let you have that one. Heavy Pulse Lasers do, in fact, inflict damage. Now that we've gotten past that, let's look at the facts: The Zealot - Has HPLs. - Has HBLs. The Deimos - Has weapons which are just as good if not better than HPLs. - Has 20% more of said weapons. - Has weapons which are just as good as HBLs. - Has 20% more of those weapons. - Has 1000m3 drone bay on top of that. Now do you see what I'm getting at? I don't want the Zealot's HPLs to once again hit out to 45km, I just want it to compete with the Deimos, bloody handed war god of HACs. You simply can't argue that the Zealot wasn't built around HPLs, and with their nerfing, it finds itself drastically weakened. Zealot getting 500m3 drone bay won't render Deimos obsolete. It won't render anything obsolete, it just won't suck as much as it does now - hence my amazement that some people would stand there and oppose this.
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2005.05.02 17:23:00 - [18] I was going to write something constructive but FireFox didnt agree and i cant be assed doing it. From both an RP perspective and just the coolness factor, i would agree with you Meridius. Hell, i would give it 6 turrets, like the Maller should've had all along anyway. Different argument. However, from a balance perspective, drones would be better as it gives you an option to deal with frigates. Beams cant do that, pulse need a web to land a hit once in a blue moon. /Elve New Video out! Watch me!
Icomeinpeace	Posted - 2005.05.02 17:39:00 - [19] Even worse than the zealot is the crusader, which got hit much harder as now having an optimal in webby range with tech II pulse.
DARKKK	Posted - 2005.05.02 17:40:00 - [20] war good of HACs is maybe ishtar, deimos certainly is not. Wanna meet geddon at 15km? i doubt. Wanna meet inty at 20km? i doubt. Those light drones are just a joke. And if you don't like that, go fly geddon.
Blind Fear	Posted - 2005.05.02 18:03:00 - [21] Originally by: DAR*** war good of HACs is maybe ishtar, deimos certainly is not. Wanna meet geddon at 15km? i doubt. Wanna meet inty at 20km? i doubt. Those light drones are just a joke. And if you don't like that, go fly geddon. Am i the only one who is lost by this post? I also believe that the zealot should get either drones or another turret hardpoint since the laser nerf renerds this ship almost usless
Selim	Posted - 2005.05.02 18:37:00 - [22] The deimos and ishtar could do with a nerf, especially the ishtar. Zealot doesnt need a boost, though. It still has its niche, a niche it performs quite well.
Parallax Error	Posted - 2005.05.02 18:41:00 - [23] Edited by: Parallax Error on 02/05/2005 18:40:53 Originally by: Selim The deimos and ishtar could do with a nerf, especially the ishtar. Zealot doesnt need a boost, though. It still has its niche, a niche it performs quite well. Oh I don't know about that, maybe bring all the other HAC's upto par with the Ishtar and Deimos?
Selim	Posted - 2005.05.02 18:48:00 - [24] Sounds good to me, but do you really think the devs would do it right? They'd end up doing something like boosting the cerberus too much, the eagle not enough, the sacrilege wouldn't change, the vagabond would get nerfed 'accidentally', and the muninn would be impossibly uber. Giving them only two ships to work with gives them less room for error. And to be honest, HAC's should not be silly like the gallente ones. I'd say the amarr ones are a rough marker of where HAC's should be at in terms of offense vs speed vs defense vs fitting. Overall, all the HAC's need a boost, as well as cruisers, in the agility department, of course.
Sabine Borgia	Posted - 2005.05.02 18:52:00 - [25] i tried out alot of setups but in that point i disagree with meridus the zealot is atm way lesser usefull then the sacri the sacri still can tank goodly but what can the zealot still do??i can still gank yeah but not alone anymore and it lost also a bit of his power in my eyes amaar cruiser always where udnerpowered yeah for sure bit more ammo bit more resis but always lacked in drones and also in turret slots most tier 3 cruiser can fit 5-6 wepons the maller can do 4 why that? cause the goodlike non existing drone bay?? and then the less wepons we got left on that ship now got lesser range lesser dmg and still need to much grid for that .. to fit a sacri or zealot with tech II beams means also needing way more grid.. they really need love
Sangxianc	Posted - 2005.05.02 18:53:00 - [26] Not meaning to sidetrack the thread, but why does the Ishtar need a nerf? - Any man's death diminishes me, as I am involved in mankinde; And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee.
Kaeten	Posted - 2005.05.02 18:58:00 - [27] Originally by: Blind Fear Originally by: DAR*** war good of HACs is maybe ishtar, deimos certainly is not. Wanna meet geddon at 15km? i doubt. Wanna meet inty at 20km? i doubt. Those light drones are just a joke. And if you don't like that, go fly geddon. Am i the only one who is lost by this post? I also believe that the zealot should get either drones or another turret hardpoint since the laser nerf renerds this ship almost usless go train up gallante and see how blasters preform agisnt pulses. another pulse nerf whiner, how do oyu thin kwe felt when your pulses where ownining the battlefield, they ain't nerfed jsut BALANCED. If you want to be leet and uber go cheat in another game. ___________________________________ Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante
Azmodaus	Posted - 2005.05.02 19:04:00 - [28] The zealot may need one more turret, other than that its fine. I'm sick of hearing about how pulses suck now....THEY DON'T!! Just because pulses don't kick arse over everything else anymore doesn't mean they suck. They are just a laser equivalent to blasters or autocannons which is what they were supposed to be in the first place. Load up the lows with heat sinks, get in close and shred them, just like the galenti have had to do with blasters from the beginning, problem solved.
Dionysus Davinci	Posted - 2005.05.02 19:14:00 - [29] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Everyone snip knows the Zealot was built around the heavy pulse laser - a gun that used to rock, but now no longer qualifies. It was created as a miniature gankageddon, fully expected to be equipped with four HPLs, a ton of heatsinks, and used as a gank platform. That's why it has one less turret than Deimos, that's why it has no drones whatsoever. Everyone snip knows that Gallente are the kings of up close and personal warefare by design. Also, blasters require you to be up close and peeking into your targets windows to looking for that girl that doesn't believe in blinds. Pulse lasers do not. They hit pretty hard and fire faster and because of their ability to go mostly emp and switch emp can erase an armor tanks shields while it will still be working on yours and hence having to work its tank sooner. In other words, stop trying to make a deimos Part Duex and just because you feel it should it be fitted with nothing but heatsinks because at one time it guarrented you an easy gank doesn't mean it will still work after a 'balance'. trolling removed - Sherkaner
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2005.05.02 19:22:00 - [30] So, bare with me here, you think it should not be fitted with Heatsinks? /Elve New Video out! Watch me!
Dionysus Davinci	Posted - 2005.05.02 19:30:00 - [31] Originally by: Elve Sorrow So, bare with me here, you think it should not be fitted with Heatsinks? No, maybe not, but my major point is a pulse user can start hitting first, instantly change his ammo types range and eat through an armor tanks shields super fast. It is not a crap ship, the Deimos has the extra gun and drones perhaps to make up for these short falls. In fact, it would seem since a gallentte likes blasters, needs to be close to use blasters, and a single web can **** that all up perhaps you should die pretty quick to blasters if you let a blaster boat get within its optimal.
Meridius	Posted - 2005.05.02 19:30:00 - [32] Edited by: Meridius on 02/05/2005 19:32:44 Originally by: Kaeten go train up gallante and see how blasters preform agisnt pulses. another pulse nerf whiner, how do oyu thin kwe felt when your pulses where ownining the battlefield, they ain't nerfed jsut BALANCED. If you want to be leet and uber go cheat in another game. Taranis = facerape inty, the best if not only 2nd to the crow. Don't argue, killboards agree with me. Thorax = king of cruisers, hands down Deimos = facerape Ishtar = EW + drone gang bang cruiser, it's drones alone do more damage then a full rack of heavy pulse II on a Zealot Yes, you get 2 great HAC's, one of the best inties and the best cruiser and you talk about hybrids sucking? Pulses never owned the battlefield, Armageddons did (and still do). This nerf was sloppy, anybody with half an IQ point can see that. Here is a point that not one person has been able to contest. To justify a pulse nerf you have to justify nerfing the punisher/crusader/malediction/retribution/vengeance/coercer/omen/maller/sacrilege/zealot. None of these ships were overpowered pre-nerf. Once again, killboard stats agree with me. Don't bother arguing. ________________________________________________________
Dionysus Davinci	Posted - 2005.05.02 19:33:00 - [33] Edited by: Dionysus Davinci on 02/05/2005 19:35:16 Originally by: MeridiusNone of these ships were overpowered pre-nerf. Once again, killboard stats agree with me. Don't bother arguing. Yes they where, because before the patch you had no reasons to use beams and could flip flop with on gun type for range and closer fights. While any other race would have to refit. Now you do, welcome to my word.
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2005.05.02 19:33:00 - [34] Except, for a blaster boat not to get within its optimal, you would need an MWD and a Web of your own. And hey, then ya might aswell go point blank eh? /Elve New Video out! Watch me!
Sangxianc	Posted - 2005.05.02 19:36:00 - [35] Edited by: Sangxianc on 02/05/2005 19:36:29 I agree that the Pulse nerf wasn't justified for Medium/Small weapons. I always though that sounded off :/ - Any man's death diminishes me, as I am involved in mankinde; And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee.
Dionysus Davinci	Posted - 2005.05.02 19:37:00 - [36] Originally by: Elve Sorrow Except, for a blaster boat not to get within its optimal, you would need an MWD and a Web of your own. And hey, then ya might aswell go point blank eh? MWD sucks a lot cap, ABs and a web don't. True story.
Dionysus Davinci	Posted - 2005.05.02 19:38:00 - [37] Originally by: Sangxianc Edited by: Sangxianc on 02/05/2005 19:36:29 I agree that the Pulse nerf wasn't justified for Medium/Small weapons. I always though that sounded off :/ They do when no one would ever fit beams.
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2005.05.02 19:42:00 - [38] Yea, thats coz a single Medium Beam II takes 18 grid. And MWD hurts a Zealot ALOT more then that shiny Deimos. /Elve New Video out! Watch me!
Letifer Deus	Posted - 2005.05.02 20:04:00 - [39] Edited by: Letifer Deus on 02/05/2005 20:04:57 zealot 4x HBLIIs 1x 10mn AB II 1x sensor booster II 1x web 7x dmg mods 10km falloff 42km base optimal w/ lvl4 HAS 0.04125 tracking 483 dmg/sec deimos 5x 250 railgun II 2x sensor booster II 2x <32 (total) cpu modules 6x mag stab II 1x RCUII 21km falloff w/lvl 4 HAS 40km optimal 0.037375 tracking 387 dmg/sec (+ 35-78 dmg/sec for drones w/ lvl4 drone skills) So zealot with heavy beam 2s has better dmg/sec, about 25% not including drones and still better if drones are included, better tracking and better optimal, but significantly lower falloff. Oh, and not to mention it can fit a 10mn ABII on as well, whereas the deimos won't be able to. There is a reason why zealot only has 4 turret hardpoints: it does plenty of damage as is. Stop whining. I am the OG PIIIIIMP
LUKEC	Posted - 2005.05.02 20:05:00 - [40] Edited by: LUKEC on 02/05/2005 20:08:51 still i can easily fit 4x medium beams II to retribution... cannot put neutrons II to deimos(not even by chance, deimos has 1075pg, 5x neutrons II = 1180pg... you need another 325 for aruII & mwd, so maxium is 5x ionsII with one hi slot empty). Maybe, just maybe there are other guns than biggest. I wonder how focused medium beams work. Make t2 BPO owner happy and try some. Not everything is about dmg mod number but also rof & tracking. When fitting biggest gun just remember that some people still use electron blasters on megathron... with really good results. EDIT: OMG just read the last post... yes, 7. low slot on deimos. (all mine have six only). If any amarr HAC needs love, then sac needs it. But also that has its uses. Just remember, amarrs are supposed to be punching bags, able to take lots of dmg.
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2005.05.02 20:11:00 - [41] Originally by: Letifer Deus Lots of numbers but no experience. You fail to see something. Once a single Taranis gets on that Zealot, Zealot dies. Once a single Taranis gets on that Deimos, the Deimos laughs at it and kills it with drones. As for fitting 4 Med Beam IIs on a Retribution. You cant without a MAPC. But, the Wolf, Enyo and Harpy can all fit 4 of their biggest longrange guns and have grid spare. /Elve New Video out! Watch me!
Gariuys	Posted - 2005.05.02 20:25:00 - [42] Edited by: Gariuys on 02/05/2005 20:29:04 Originally by: Icomeinpeace Even worse than the zealot is the crusader, which got hit much harder as now having an optimal in webby range with tech II pulse. Staying well away from this thread... hiya Meridius... ( it isn't like this topic hasn't been discussed before, this topic was discussed at nosium when the zealot was released. ) But can't resist this one, OMG a interceptor using short range weapons has to fight inside web range? wow that's like amazing, none of the other interceptors need to do that... no sirrreeeee. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Letifer Deus	Posted - 2005.05.02 20:26:00 - [43] Originally by: Meridius Thorax = king of cruisers, hands down Deimos = facerape Ishtar = EW + drone gang bang cruiser, it's drones alone do more damage then a full rack of heavy pulse II on a Zealot Yes, you get 2 great HAC's, one of the best inties and the best cruiser and you talk about hybrids sucking? -Yes, thorax is overpowered, nerf the drone bay. -Ishtar with 14x heavies and lvl4 drone skills does 296 dmg/sec, zealot with 4 heavy pulse II does 227 dmg/sec, so yeah, you're right. But I know that you know how unreliable drones are in combat. They can be shot and killed, they can be smartbombed. And 2 dmg mods will put you well over the drones damage. I am the OG PIIIIIMP
Gariuys	Posted - 2005.05.02 20:27:00 - [44] Originally by: Elve Sorrow Originally by: Letifer Deus Lots of numbers but no experience. You fail to see something. Once a single Taranis gets on that Zealot, Zealot dies. Once a single Taranis gets on that Deimos, the Deimos laughs at it and kills it with drones. As for fitting 4 Med Beam IIs on a Retribution. You cant without a MAPC. But, the Wolf, Enyo and Harpy can all fit 4 of their biggest longrange guns and have grid spare. And that's probably cause a standard deimos setup is well perfectly setup to take care of interceptors, if zealot would run a similiar setup... goodbye taranis. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2005.05.02 20:29:00 - [45] Those other Interceptors can actually fit a web though. :\| Although, i think a Crusader isn't that bad. Needs a bit of skill, but it works fine if you know what you're doing. /Elve New Video out! Watch me!
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2005.05.02 20:31:00 - [46] Yea. So within a Taranis' web range, without a web yourself, you can pretty much forget about killing that Taranis. /Elve New Video out! Watch me!
Gariuys	Posted - 2005.05.02 20:31:00 - [47] Originally by: Elve Sorrow Those other Interceptors can actually fit a web though. :\| Although, i think a Crusader isn't that bad. Needs a bit of skill, but it works fine if you know what you're doing. He ment that he had to get in his target web range. Not his own. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2005.05.02 20:33:00 - [48] Originally by: Gariuys And that's probably cause a standard deimos setup is well perfectly setup to take care of interceptors, if zealot would run a similiar setup... goodbye taranis. Oh i know. The point im trying to make here is a Zealot has only its guns. The Deimos has another way of defense, ie drones. Originally by: Letifer Deus -Yes, thorax is overpowered, nerf the drone bay. So you want to nerf the only semi-usefull cruiser? Boost the other to the Thorax's level, rather. /Elve New Video out! Watch me!
Tragar	Posted - 2005.05.02 20:33:00 - [49] TBH I think the whole of the amarrian race got screwed with T2 :\ none of my t2 large lasers (beams and pulse) can compare to a 1400 II, dual 650 II, 425 II, Ion II it makes me cry :\
LUKEC	Posted - 2005.05.02 20:34:00 - [50] true, it takes low slot for MAPC, but you dont have cpu for anything else. And i wonder what taranis can take out zealot? If you are not fitting web, that is your problem. Crow can also mess with deimos big time... medium drones don't hit crap, lights are killed to easily. It is like comparing geddon & blasterthron at 25km. (oh maybe blasterthron lives, but he surely has electrons and insane tank, but chances of survival are like 10%)... and in the end you find out that it was *****geddon with 2stabs. About isthar... it is good till you meet bs with smartbomb.(and from what i've heard from caldari whiners, also zealot can fit 1 mediumII = dead drones in 4 activations.) I'll hear now about nosfing and not beeing able to activate smartbombs... fit injectors is all i can say. (remember some of us have ammo, amarrs dont, so you can use cargo for something except loot(too much experience from gankas causing this loot trauma i guess)).
Dionysus Davinci	Posted - 2005.05.02 20:36:00 - [51] Originally by: Elve Sorrow Once a single Taranis gets on that Deimos, the Deimos laughs at it and kills it with drones. If he is packing lights maybe, last time I tried to beat of a Taranis with Med Drones and then Heavies (He blew up my med, then Heavy) he just turned on MWD and targeted the drones till they where gone. In the in I got him with a torp.
Gariuys	Posted - 2005.05.02 20:37:00 - [52] Originally by: LUKEC true, it takes low slot for MAPC, but you dont have cpu for anything else. And i wonder what taranis can take out zealot? If you are not fitting web, that is your problem. Crow can also mess with deimos big time... medium drones don't hit crap, lights are killed to easily. It is like comparing geddon & blasterthron at 25km. (oh maybe blasterthron lives, but he surely has electrons and insane tank, but chances of survival are like 10%)... and in the end you find out that it was *****geddon with 2stabs. About isthar... it is good till you meet bs with smartbomb.(and from what i've heard from caldari whiners, also zealot can fit 1 mediumII = dead drones in 4 activations.) I'll hear now about nosfing and not beeing able to activate smartbombs... fit injectors is all i can say. (remember some of us have ammo, amarrs dont, so you can use cargo for something except loot(too much experience from gankas causing this loot trauma i guess)). You're forgetting that all ammarrian pilots are firm believers in the uselessness of utility highs and think smartbombs are demon spawn. And that OMG use cargo space for something other then loot is defiance of the gods. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Gariuys	Posted - 2005.05.02 20:38:00 - [53] Originally by: Tragar TBH I think the whole of the amarrian race got screwed with T2 :\ none of my t2 large lasers (beams and pulse) can compare to a 1400 II, dual 650 II, 425 II, Ion II it makes me cry :\ T2 is the exact same bonus for lasers as it is for any other gun. So you either say all lasers suck... or they don't, but just the t2 flavors sucking is practically impossible. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2005.05.02 20:47:00 - [54] Heavy Beam IIs will not hit a webbed Interceptor. Not will 720mm II nor will 250mm II. That is a fact i can accept. But the Deimos and the Muninn have another way of dealing with this, Zealot does not. And please. Carrying cap charges would defeat the entire purpose of the no-ammo argument. I could live with having to use cap charges, but they'd need some work to last longer then a single fight, and lasers would need a boost to make up for having to use ammo. Do i need to link you to all the threads saying lasers use no ammo and have to pay for it? I've better things to carry in my hold, and they don't involve cap charges nor loot. /Elve New Video out! Watch me!
Gariuys	Posted - 2005.05.02 20:47:00 - [55] Originally by: Elve Sorrow Originally by: Gariuys And that's probably cause a standard deimos setup is well perfectly setup to take care of interceptors, if zealot would run a similiar setup... goodbye taranis. Oh i know. The point im trying to make here is a Zealot has only its guns. The Deimos has another way of defense, ie drones. Originally by: Letifer Deus -Yes, thorax is overpowered, nerf the drone bay. So you want to nerf the only semi-usefull cruiser? Boost the other to the Thorax's level, rather. The only reason those drones are actually a nice addition too interceptor defense is the web, ( and for the smart deimos pilot the nos ) not cause drones are interceptor eaters. Not even with maxed out drone skills. And if all you got is guns, would it not make sense to capatilize on that. Fact is, if you run short range weapons, you run a mwd and a web as well. I know this doesn't come naturally too pulse users. But that's the fact of life for a short range, mwd and web. And a constant battle for cap. Which for a deimos isn't as much the mwd as it is the blasters, while a zealot takes a punch in the cap but with only 4 lasers and a very nice bonus to it's cap usage doesn't have all that much too worry about when it comes to running it's guns. ( 4x pulse, mwd, web, injector, rep, thermic harnder and heat sinks/relays is a devastating ship which retains a lot of flexibility ) ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
LUKEC	Posted - 2005.05.02 20:49:00 - [56] Edited by: LUKEC on 02/05/2005 20:51:00 Originally by: Tragar TBH I think the whole of the amarrian race got screwed with T2 :\ none of my t2 large lasers (beams and pulse) can compare to a 1400 II, dual 650 II, 425 II, Ion II it makes me cry :\ They can... just are no more insta win button. lets compare some: Heavy pulse II vs. IonII: dmg mod 3.6 vs 3.375 rof: 5.25 vs 4.5 optimal: 12km vs 3km falloff: 4km vs 4km tracking: 0.065 vs 0.11 normalized dmg: 0.68 vs 0.75 normailzed tracking: 780 vs 330 (tracking x optimal... this is actually calculated in hit formula and compared to transversal speed) I guess Heavy pulseII is not inferior to t2 ions. (and amarrs can fit t2 heavy pulses easily on zealot with pg left for nosf, ab, med aruII, gallente have to squeeze ionsII and t1 mwd..., but thats just details as i'll probably start to use 1600mm plate & electrons on deimos soon as i'd like to survive mwd trip sometimes). And too many perfectionist posting here... most ships in eve are fitted crappy, sitting in 0.9 and doing lvl3 missions. just 1 more little detail: what does 20% better range help blasters? Lasers actually get some bonus from that, blasters have like 200m more optimal.
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2005.05.02 20:50:00 - [57] Right, now pulse lasers are suddenly shortrange. :\| Pulse lasers are medrange guns, if they have to use both an MWD and a Web, which shortrange guns have to aswell, you might aswell start fitting shortrange guns. I could remind you though that my suggestion for pulse changes was making them like blasters. Ie, 4km optimal, slightly higher tracking and damage. /Elve New Video out! Watch me!
LUKEC	Posted - 2005.05.02 20:58:00 - [58] nah, pulses are just med range guns, hitting too much in short range. I agree amarr intys are f***ed. Amarr hacs are not. You have 24+km optimal on zealot with microwave. Just you wont win much 1vs1 against minmater & gallente. But when i look at bs situation, i feel quite good about that. And 2x zealot vs 2x deimos i wonder who wins. If you get 500m drone bay, give deimos 2000 or maybe a way to hit inty orbiting at 18km and scrambling.
Meridius	Posted - 2005.05.02 21:09:00 - [59] Originally by: Letifer Deus -Ishtar with 14x heavies and lvl4 drone skills does 296 dmg/sec, zealot with 4 heavy pulse II does 227 dmg/sec, so yeah, you're right. But I know that you know how unreliable drones are in combat. They can be shot and killed, they can be smartbombed. And 2 dmg mods will put you well over the drones damage. Wow, i didn't actually know it was that bad. I have to use 4 tech 2 guns and 2 tech 2 damage mods to outdamage an Ishtars drones which are only at lvl 4 Not even taking into account an ishtar can in fact fit some decent guns to add even more DPS as it gets a 25% dmg bonus Drones not reliable? I depend on drones quite a bit when using my arma, can't say i've ever had any problems with them being destroyed. The main problem i've had involves me leaving them when i have to warp out Oh, and medium drones + web = erased inty. ________________________________________________________
Meridius	Posted - 2005.05.02 21:16:00 - [60] Originally by: Gariuys But can't resist this one, OMG a interceptor using short range weapons has to fight inside web range? wow that's like amazing, none of the other interceptors need to do that... no sirrreeeee. I'd be fine fighting in a crusader at close range if i had 3 mids and 3 lows. Thats not the case and having inties warp out with like 20% hull has to be the most frustrating thing ever. Nothing makes you go limp faster then that :/ Thats why fighting above 10km is crucial in a Crusader. ________________________________________________________
LUKEC	Posted - 2005.05.02 21:19:00 - [61] i just wonder how many inty pilots ever get webbed? none... so drones are not really solution vs inys, as lighs are more joke than not.
Reatu Krentor	Posted - 2005.05.02 21:20:00 - [62] Wouldn't it be better to just lower the drone bay of Thorax (and thus also it successor, the Deimos), like transfer part of that drone bay(1000m¦ of Thorax to Vexor, lower drone bay of Deimos to 500m¦) to the Vexor which is supposed to be drone king cruiser? Perhaps also raise Zealots drone bay to the level of the T1 Omen (300m¦), might not be much but its something, enough to fit 6 light drones. small boost to Zealot, nerf to thorax and deimos ------------------------------------------ The ammatar are not the enemy, they are the smoke and mirrors of the amarr.
Meridius	Posted - 2005.05.02 21:24:00 - [63] Originally by: LUKEC i just wonder how many inty pilots ever get webbed? none... so drones are not really solution vs inys, as lighs are more joke than not. No inties get webbed? Do you play EVE? ________________________________________________________
Tragar	Posted - 2005.05.02 21:25:00 - [64] Originally by: Gariuys Originally by: Tragar TBH I think the whole of the amarrian race got screwed with T2 :\ none of my t2 large lasers (beams and pulse) can compare to a 1400 II, dual 650 II, 425 II, Ion II it makes me cry :\ T2 is the exact same bonus for lasers as it is for any other gun. So you either say all lasers suck... or they don't, but just the t2 flavors sucking is practically impossible. Your forgetting everyone else has 5% dmg bonus per bs level added on top :\
Meridius	Posted - 2005.05.02 21:26:00 - [65] Originally by: Reatu Krentor Wouldn't it be better to just lower the drone bay of Thorax (and thus also it successor, the Deimos), like transfer part of that drone bay(1000m¦ of Thorax to Vexor, lower drone bay of Deimos to 500m¦) to the Vexor which is supposed to be drone king cruiser? Perhaps also raise Zealots drone bay to the level of the T1 Omen (300m¦), might not be much but its something, enough to fit 6 light drones. small boost to Zealot, nerf to thorax and deimos The Thorax should get a drone bay nerf, that's been a long time coming. I do not think the Deimos should get nerfed, it's fine as is. ________________________________________________________
Gariuys	Posted - 2005.05.02 21:27:00 - [66] Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Gariuys But can't resist this one, OMG a interceptor using short range weapons has to fight inside web range? wow that's like amazing, none of the other interceptors need to do that... no sirrreeeee. I'd be fine fighting in a crusader at close range if i had 3 mids and 3 lows. Thats not the case and having inties warp out with like 20% hull has to be the most frustrating thing ever. Nothing makes you go limp faster then that :/ Thats why fighting above 10km is crucial in a Crusader. Then don't fit pulses... ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Meridius	Posted - 2005.05.02 21:27:00 - [67] Originally by: Tragar Your forgetting everyone else has 5% dmg bonus per bs level added on top :\ The geddon has a 5% rof bonus and the apoc is the strongest bs tank. ________________________________________________________
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.05.02 21:28:00 - [68] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 02/05/2005 21:31:11 Originally by: Icomeinpeace Even worse than the zealot is the crusader, which got hit much harder as now having an optimal in webby range with tech II pulse. waaaaaa. Gee, take a look at small autocannon sometime. ALLWAYS had a really short range, and you wanna argue ppl can't kill with them? Get over yourselves. Wow, the Zealot can't kill everything in sight anymore. And? No other HAC can either. Arguing that a HAC should be able to defend itself if tackled AND have massive firepower is just AMUSING. If anything, halve the Deimos's drone bay. "As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade"
Reatu Krentor	Posted - 2005.05.02 21:30:00 - [69] Originally by: Tragar Originally by: Gariuys Originally by: Tragar TBH I think the whole of the amarrian race got screwed with T2 :\ none of my t2 large lasers (beams and pulse) can compare to a 1400 II, dual 650 II, 425 II, Ion II it makes me cry :\ T2 is the exact same bonus for lasers as it is for any other gun. So you either say all lasers suck... or they don't, but just the t2 flavors sucking is practically impossible. Your forgetting everyone else has 5% dmg bonus per bs level added on top :\ Armageddon gets Rate of Fire bonus, which is practically the same. The only bs that gets a bigger bonus is the Tempest because it gets double bonus, damage and rate of fire, but it does need it, projectile turrets aren't as good without these bonuses tbh ------------------------------------------ The ammatar are not the enemy, they are the smoke and mirrors of the amarr.
Gariuys	Posted - 2005.05.02 21:31:00 - [70] Originally by: Elve Sorrow Right, now pulse lasers are suddenly shortrange. :\| Pulse lasers are medrange guns, if they have to use both an MWD and a Web, which shortrange guns have to aswell, you might aswell start fitting shortrange guns. I could remind you though that my suggestion for pulse changes was making them like blasters. Ie, 4km optimal, slightly higher tracking and damage. Med range for a frigate, is well short range. ( if you go by the definition of short range being inside web ) There are exceptions, but trully short range for a frigate is a couple of 100meters of optimal, not kms. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.05.02 21:34:00 - [71] Originally by: Meridius Oh, and medium drones + web = erased inty. Have you SEEN my setup? heh "As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade"
Gariuys	Posted - 2005.05.02 21:38:00 - [72] Originally by: Elve Sorrow Heavy Beam IIs will not hit a webbed Interceptor. Not will 720mm II nor will 250mm II. That is a fact i can accept. But the Deimos and the Muninn have another way of dealing with this, Zealot does not. And please. Carrying cap charges would defeat the entire purpose of the no-ammo argument. I could live with having to use cap charges, but they'd need some work to last longer then a single fight, and lasers would need a boost to make up for having to use ammo. Do i need to link you to all the threads saying lasers use no ammo and have to pay for it? I've better things to carry in my hold, and they don't involve cap charges nor loot. The drawback lasers used to have for not using ammo has LOOOONG ago been removed. It was cap usage. And god don't we all have stuff we'd like to carry round. But you can't say my ship sucks, cause I don't use the options i available cause I got more important things to stuff in my cargo hold. That don't work. If you won't use that option. You pay the price. If I stop carrying the stupid amounts of antimatter m i need, or stocking up on moronic drones that are more trouble then they're worth. Then that's hardly a reason to boost the deimos now is it? ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2005.05.02 21:54:00 - [73] Ok, fine. So remove the -10% cap use per level and give every single amarr ship a new bonus. I'm all for it, it's a boring bonus anyway. For the love of god, even our Missile boat had this bonus untill last patch which fixed this. (It's still crap, but thats a different matter.) /Elve New Video out! Watch me!
Meridius	Posted - 2005.05.02 21:56:00 - [74] Originally by: Maya Rkell i am the bestest claw pilot in teh world Ok, please use something other then a Claw and maybe i'll actually read your post. ________________________________________________________
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2005.05.02 21:58:00 - [75] Quote: Wow, the Zealot can't kill everything in sight anymore. And? No other HAC can either. K, now stop spitting all over yourself, calm down and think about this: Will giving the Zealot 500m3 drone bay enable it to 'kill everything in sight'? Quote: Arguing that a HAC should be able to defend itself if tackled AND have massive firepower is just AMUSING. Not as amusing as the realization that every other HAC besides the Zealot can do just that.
Seto Mazzarotto	Posted - 2005.05.02 23:29:00 - [76] I hope the people reading this thread keep in mind that missiles, as they stand now, aren't behaving as they should. This whole motion prediction nonsense has got to go, and one shouldn't base ship balance around it. Which means that they're not the answer for dealing with the scrambing inty. Or at least won't be once they're actually working as intended. Which pretty much leaves drones as the one viable anti-frigate defense out there. For those so worried about frigate defense, have you tried such radical steps as using a med slot or two to counteract the small sig radius & high-velocity antics of those pesky interceptors? There's modules out that can tip such things in your favor, you know. Maybe even pack a wingman. But hey, that's unheard of. I mean, who wants to fly a 60mil ship with no insurance into battle with something so completely redundant as backup? That said... yes, I think the Zealot could use a drone bay. But so could every other HAC that's been robbed of theirs in the transition to Tech II. ----------- Fighting for the ideals of freespace, posthuman ethics, and rock & roll.
Meridius	Posted - 2005.05.02 23:42:00 - [77] Edited by: Meridius on 02/05/2005 23:44:50 Originally by: Seto Mazzarotto I hope the people reading this thread keep in mind that missiles, as they stand now, aren't behaving as they should. This whole motion prediction nonsense has got to go, and one shouldn't base ship balance around it. I hate to break it to you but missle balance has been in CCP's que for like a year. I will take things how they stand now and until CCP figures out what they are actually going to do with missiles. ________________________________________________________
Shayla Sh'inlux	Posted - 2005.05.03 00:54:00 - [78] Quote: 'bla bla Pulse Laser never hit inties bla bla not even when webbed' 2005.04.24 19:05:00 Victim: Shayla Sh'inlux Corporation: Millennium Destroyed Type: Taranis <-- look it's an Inty Solar System: SL-YBS System Security Level: 0.0 Involved parties: Name: Arathian Evasion (laid the final blow) Security Status: 1.0 Corporation: M. Corp Ship Type: Prophecy <-- look not even a HAC but a Proph Weapon Type: Heavy Pulse Laser II <-- look HPL II This was between 300m and 500m without me running MWD. It also was with a single (one; 1) target painter. Now stop whining. ------------------------------------------------------- "Do you really think that's air you're breathing?"
Liu Kaskakka	Posted - 2005.05.03 02:22:00 - [79] I cannot fly this ship, thus I conclude that it does not need a boost of any sort!
keepiru	Posted - 2005.05.03 02:24:00 - [80] Originally by: Liu Kaskakka I cannot fly this ship, thus I conclude that it does not need a boost of any sort! Lol Liu ahem. clears throat I very much want to fly this ship, thus I conclude it should be made uber! ------------- Originally by: Gnauton It was purely accidental. We really don't have a sense of humour at all.
Meridius	Posted - 2005.05.03 02:51:00 - [81] Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux Quote: 'bla bla Pulse Laser never hit inties bla bla not even when webbed' 2005.04.24 19:05:00 Victim: Shayla Sh'inlux Corporation: Millennium Destroyed Type: Taranis <-- look it's an Inty Solar System: SL-YBS System Security Level: 0.0 Involved parties: Name: Arathian Evasion (laid the final blow) Security Status: 1.0 Corporation: M. Corp Ship Type: Prophecy <-- look not even a HAC but a Proph Weapon Type: Heavy Pulse Laser II <-- look HPL II This was between 300m and 500m without me running MWD. It also was with a single (one; 1) target painter. Now stop whining. Who said heavy pulse can't hit an inty while webbed? I sure didn't. ________________________________________________________
brentgod	Posted - 2005.05.03 02:58:00 - [82] Look at the grid difference between the zealot and the deminos. Try fitting railguns + med armor rep to a deminos for long range. Then fit Beams and armor rep to a zealot and see which one has enough low slots left for dmg mods. Deminos realy struggles at long range. Zealot is more versitile in its set-ups. Just my opinion flam away
Selim	Posted - 2005.05.03 04:30:00 - [83] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Quote: Arguing that a HAC should be able to defend itself if tackled AND have massive firepower is just AMUSING. Not as amusing as the realization that every other HAC besides the Zealot can do just that. Hahahahahaha.
Letifer Deus	Posted - 2005.05.03 04:37:00 - [84] Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Letifer Deus -Ishtar with 14x heavies and lvl4 drone skills does 296 dmg/sec, zealot with 4 heavy pulse II does 227 dmg/sec, so yeah, you're right. But I know that you know how unreliable drones are in combat. They can be shot and killed, they can be smartbombed. And 2 dmg mods will put you well over the drones damage. Wow, i didn't actually know it was that bad. I have to use 4 tech 2 guns and 2 tech 2 damage mods to outdamage an Ishtars drones which are only at lvl 4 Not even taking into account an ishtar can in fact fit some decent guns to add even more DPS as it gets a 25% dmg bonus Drones not reliable? I depend on drones quite a bit when using my arma, can't say i've ever had any problems with them being destroyed. The main problem i've had involves me leaving them when i have to warp out Oh, and medium drones + web = erased inty. I also forgot to add in that it is 296 dmg/sec if you use ONLY Ogres, it drops significantly with other drone types. 240 dmg/sec if one were to use all berserkers. Not to mention drone dmg has by far the largest damage delay of anything (especially with Ogres.) There are quite a few downsides to having the majority of your damage being in drones, I don't see how you can overlook that. I won't be so silly as to say Ishtar is not one of the better HACs, it is, but it is not in any way "uber." And let's be honest, the zealot in no way shape or form "blows" I am the OG PIIIIIMP
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2005.05.03 04:50:00 - [85] Ok, whatever. Answer this: Would adding 500m3 drone bay to Zealot make it overpowered, or merely somewhat on par with others?
Vex Seraphim	Posted - 2005.05.03 04:51:00 - [86] Haven't read the whole thread, but why not a huge range bonus? ------------------- :: finite horizon :: killboard :: :: bio :: blog ::
Selim	Posted - 2005.05.03 04:56:00 - [87] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Ok, whatever. Answer this: Would adding 500m3 drone bay to Zealot make it overpowered, or merely somewhat on par with others? It wouldn't make it overpowered, but it doesn't need it. Does that make sense? The zealot as it is has a niche it performs well - a medium range gankship. It performs this better than any other heavy cruiser. The downside to its incredible fitting ease, is its lack of versatility (no drone bay or missiles).
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2005.05.03 05:16:00 - [88] Does the Deimos need its 1000m3 drone bay? Without it, it would perform quite similarly to a Zealot, yet it still has the drone bay. How can you simply say it doesn't need it? I think it does.
Sadist	Posted - 2005.05.03 05:21:00 - [89] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Does the Deimos need its 1000m3 drone bay? Without it, it would perform quite similarly to a Zealot, yet it still has the drone bay. How can you simply say it doesn't need it? I think it does. Dont want to interrupt the hot-heated discussion, but wasnt the problem in the first place about not doing enough DPS? Do the 9 medium drones really make a difference from "omg,suxors" to "omfg,uber,nerf it plz plz plz" ? _______________________________________________
keepiru	Posted - 2005.05.03 07:06:00 - [90] Originally by: Selim Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Ok, whatever. Answer this: Would adding 500m3 drone bay to Zealot make it overpowered, or merely somewhat on par with others? It wouldn't make it overpowered, but it doesn't need it. Does that make sense? The zealot as it is has a niche it performs well - a medium range gankship. It performs this better than any other heavy cruiser. The downside to its incredible fitting ease, is its lack of versatility (no drone bay or missiles). ..depends on your def of med range... seems to me its more along the lines of - but not completely - a med range gank ship that now suddenly has to use short-range weapons. Youre not in blaster-level short range, but since you need multis to gank something, that puts you very close to web range - which is to all intents and purposes short range - in a ship that doesent really have the cap to use MWD to keep at that range. Your em will kill an eagle, but any eagle pilot that sees you AB at him and hangs around probably deserves what's coming to him... Or anyway, that's what it looks like to me from here. ------------- Originally by: Gnauton It was purely accidental. We really don't have a sense of humour at all.
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2005.05.03 07:12:00 - [91] Pulse lasers and gank setups have done more to screw with balance than anything else in this game. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
keepiru	Posted - 2005.05.03 07:29:00 - [92] Originally by: Gunsnroses gankagedon nerf was needed. But as usual CCP ****s up. Arma still owns all, but you screwd everyother amarr ship in game. Apoc is useless, ints are useless, omen useless, maller useless, zealot useless........ Why? well.. it's not QUITE* that catastrophic... but they werent particualry useful before, and this certainly hasnt helped... it was a compound of many things... for one med beam fitting requirements are BROKEN. this could be handily ignored while med pulse could hit outside of web range, but now the fact that amarr tech II figates are incapable of any decent fitting with long-range weapons comparable to the other races abilities is sadly apparent. the sacrilege has always been a hopeless case damage-wise, and 'nuff said. the zealot was... balanced, surprisingly enough. and now its not. not by THAT much. but its not. literally every amarr tech I ship without a damage mod - which is to say, all bar the geddon and omen - were weak before hand, bar a sniperpoc, and now they.. theyre just meh. and the geddon is till the only bs i'd fly in pvp, if i didnt so hate being strapped into something that handles like a mobile home with armor plating and worn tires. ------------- Originally by: Gnauton It was purely accidental. We really don't have a sense of humour at all.
AlphA13	Posted - 2005.05.03 11:11:00 - [93] It¦s not about creating a second pre-nerf gankageddon, it¦s about making the Zealot a ship that can defend it¦s self against smaller ships. It¦s not the dmg/s that needs a boost, it¦s the versability ( correct spelled ??). deimos is ok as it is imo ishtar aswell.. but Zealot( 300-500m¦drone) eagle (5th turret slot but keep the 6 high)needs this small boost.. Hell if I train for a ship a long time it should be be perform close to the race equivalents.. not uber omg pwne, but ok . In two days tomorrow will be yesterday
Ithildin	Posted - 2005.05.03 11:46:00 - [94] I am looking at the Zealot't fitting. I cannot for the life of me figure out what is wrong with it's fitting capacity. It has 200 more PG than Deimos, and it has about the same CPU (considering pulse lasers use about same PG but less CPU than blasters...). More low slots, and same med slots. It doesn't need an MWD. If you add a hardpoint, then it'll absolutely******any other cruiser sized ship in game. And if it is given 1000 m3 drones... well sooner or later you'll all realize that drones aren't all that great. Considering how many actually forget to launch them, how unreliable they are, as well as how easy to loose (most people loose them by warping out) - go ahead, give it a drone bay of less than 1000 m3! Oh, and it's longer ranged as well as faster. The devs did state there's a reason they did nothing to it when they changed the pulses... I think it was something about owning TomB's Deimos or something. Now, the Caldari Eagle has some issues worth discussing. And the Cerberus will get rebalanced along with all missile ships (such as Sacriledge) -- If TC causes you discomfort that you feel is unwarranted or may be outside TC's current contract - contact me, please.
LUKEC	Posted - 2005.05.03 12:06:00 - [95] Edited by: LUKEC on 03/05/2005 12:08:45 look, who can fend intys better? Depends on inty, really. Blastertaranis going after deimos is just uber stupid or has some ace in sleeve(dunno what, though). In 99% he will just die. Same situation with railtaranis going after zealot. Orbit at 11km and you get wtf nosfed... orbit at more - you actually get hit. If zealot gets drone bay, it should be 300m3 max. Enough for 6light drones. Oh and don't forget that you get like 15x range of deimos with zealot.(1800m vs 26km... and you can switch ammo, which is not really the case with blasters). Oh and with x-ray you have like 15km optimal and with gamma like 13km+ 4km falloff. And dmg done with gamma is not all that lower than that of multis. And blasters on deimos are damaging only under 5km, but true dmg comes only under 2.5km. Now if 13km is just above blaster range... And zealot with beams >>>deimos with rails. More dps, better tracking, better range... better everything. And they actually fit better than 250mm rails on deimos.(Though fitting those to deimos is sin) And about five guns on eagle: forget it. 4 are just enough, you can tank that ***** better than raven. And just one more little thing: which race has best bs-s? Gallente definitely not. So let em have best HACs. EDIT: eagle is just fine, just fit into role caldari bs-s should be in. Let the flaming begin.
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2005.05.03 12:28:00 - [96] Just a question. Why are you comparing Blasters with Antimatter to Heavy Pulse with Infrared (Radio, if its not on a HAC) Whats the range with Heavy Ion IIs, on a Deimos with lvl4 HAC and using Iron ammo? (I know Zealot gets roughly 37 with HAC 5) /Elve New Video out! Watch me!
Kaeten	Posted - 2005.05.03 12:33:00 - [97] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Does the Deimos need its 1000m3 drone bay? Without it, it would perform quite similarly to a Zealot, yet it still has the drone bay. How can you simply say it doesn't need it? I think it does. err gallante are famous for drones maybe? ___________________________________ Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2005.05.03 12:35:00 - [98] Yes, and Amarr are famous for turrets. /me points at Zealot /me points at Deimos /me points at Muninn /Elve New Video out! Watch me!
Kaeten	Posted - 2005.05.03 12:37:00 - [99] Originally by: Elve Sorrow Yes, and Amarr are famous for turrets. /me points at Zealot /me points at Deimos /me points at Muninn Is it my fault you get caught within 10km of webbing range of a demoius. Instead fit the following things to counter, web & mwd. And also try not to get close. Your asking for death if you get close to a demios, warp out if hes close. I don't beleive how lazy amarr pilots are ___________________________________ Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante
Kaeten	Posted - 2005.05.03 12:38:00 - [100] Originally by: Joshua Calvert Pulse lasers and gank setups have done more to screw with balance than anything else in this game. too true. ___________________________________ Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante
Kaeten	Posted - 2005.05.03 12:40:00 - [101] Originally by: Elve Sorrow Just a question. Why are you comparing Blasters with Antimatter to Heavy Pulse with Infrared (Radio, if its not on a HAC) Whats the range with Heavy Ion IIs, on a Deimos with lvl4 HAC and using Iron ammo? (I know Zealot gets roughly 37 with HAC 5) about that, it's pointless using any other ammo with blasters. Pulses however get the extra range. The blaster pilots need mwd's to get close while the pulses guys can fit something else cause they can choose their range. Fit an mwd problem solved. ___________________________________ Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2005.05.03 12:42:00 - [102] Edited by: Elve Sorrow on 03/05/2005 12:43:18 Originally by: Kaeten Is it my fault you get caught within 10km of webbing range of a demoius. Instead fit the following things to counter, web & mwd. And also try not to get close. Your asking for death if you get close to a demios, warp out if hes close. I don't beleive how lazy amarr pilots are So, to counter the downsides of a shortrange setup, i have to start fitting thesemyself. Yes, that makes sense. /Elve New Video out! Watch me!
Kaeten	Posted - 2005.05.03 12:43:00 - [103] Originally by: Elve Sorrow Originally by: KaetenIs it my fault you get caught within 10km of webbing range of a demoius. Instead fit the following things to counter, web & mwd. And also try not to get close. Your asking for death if you get close to a demios, warp out if hes close. I don't beleive how lazy amarr pilots are [:roll: So, to counter the downsides of a shortrange setup, i have to start fitting thesemyself. Yes, that makes sense. thats what we gallante pilots have done for the last err whole game. ___________________________________ Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante
MadGaz	Posted - 2005.05.03 12:53:00 - [104] Originally by: Kaeten Originally by: Elve Sorrow Originally by: KaetenIs it my fault you get caught within 10km of webbing range of a demoius. Instead fit the following things to counter, web & mwd. And also try not to get close. Your asking for death if you get close to a demios, warp out if hes close. I don't beleive how lazy amarr pilots are [:roll: So, to counter the downsides of a shortrange setup, i have to start fitting thesemyself. Yes, that makes sense. thats what we gallante pilots have done for the last err whole game. Do you actually fly a zealot?? No???? exactly... ------------------------------------------
Kaeten	Posted - 2005.05.03 12:56:00 - [105] Originally by: MadGaz Originally by: Kaeten Originally by: Elve Sorrow Originally by: KaetenIs it my fault you get caught within 10km of webbing range of a demoius. Instead fit the following things to counter, web & mwd. And also try not to get close. Your asking for death if you get close to a demios, warp out if hes close. I don't beleive how lazy amarr pilots are [:roll: So, to counter the downsides of a shortrange setup, i have to start fitting thesemyself. Yes, that makes sense. thats what we gallante pilots have done for the last err whole game. Do you actually fly a zealot?? No???? exactly... hes complaining about that zealots can't gank everything liek they did. He now has to use his head instead of f1, f2... etc. ___________________________________ Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante
Dash Ripcock	Posted - 2005.05.03 13:06:00 - [106] This whole nonsense about the Ishtar being over-powered - drones might be reliable in a one-on-one situation, but what if a friend warps in? What if you have to quickly warp out and fight somewhere else? Are you going to wait for your sluggish drones to meander all the way back to the mother-craft? The Ishtar is a fantastic tactical ship, and extremely useful against other HAS in a one-on-one, just don't bring it to the fight if you know they're gonna have their friends with them... Battle Angels Inc - The Movie
Kaeten	Posted - 2005.05.03 13:29:00 - [107] Originally by: Dash Ripcock This whole nonsense about the Ishtar being over-powered - drones might be reliable in a one-on-one situation, but what if a friend warps in? What if you have to quickly warp out and fight somewhere else? Are you going to wait for your sluggish drones to meander all the way back to the mother-craft? The Ishtar is a fantastic tactical ship, and extremely useful against other HAS in a one-on-one, just don't bring it to the fight if you know they're gonna have their friends with them... another example to why gallante hacs are not over powering. ___________________________________ Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2005.05.03 13:52:00 - [108] Kaeten, would adding 500m3 drone bay to Zealot enable it to 'gank everything'?
Bad'Boy	Posted - 2005.05.03 13:54:00 - [109] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Kaeten, would adding 500m3 drone bay to Zealot enable it to 'gank everything'? would not adding screw it totaly up and leave ubeg *** pointless noob ship that cant kill a thing? B.A.D.B.O.Y.: Biomechanical Android Designed for Battle and Online Yelling "Bad Boys,Bad Boys, what you gonna do, what you gonna do when WE come for yoU"
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2005.05.03 14:09:00 - [110] Edited by: Istvaan Shogaatsu on 03/05/2005 14:18:51 Quote: would not adding screw it totaly up and leave ubeg *** pointless noob ship that cant kill a thing? I think so, yes (nicely dodged question though). Every other ship comes with inty defense in the form of drones or missiles, and some of those have better weapons than the Zealot - I can't see a reason why it shouldn't get something to level the playing field. I love how these threads bring out people who have absolutely nothing worthwhile to add, but will shoot down a proposed boost just because they don't want to face the boosted ship. Does 500m3 drone bay scare you all so much? Would adding 500m3 drone bay to Zealot make it 'gank everything'?
Gariuys	Posted - 2005.05.03 14:17:00 - [111] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Quote: would not adding screw it totaly up and leave ubeg *** pointless noob ship that cant kill a thing? I think so, yes. Every other ship comes with inty defense in the form of drones or missiles, and some of those have better weapons than the Zealot - I can't see a reason why it shouldn't get something to level the playing field. I love how these threads bring out people who have absolutely nothing worthwhile to add, but will shoot down a proposed boost just because they don't want to face the boosted ship. Does 500m3 drone bay scare you all so much? /me looks at thread title.... ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Seto Mazzarotto	Posted - 2005.05.03 14:18:00 - [112] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu I think so, yes. Every other ship comes with inty defense in the form of drones or missiles, and some of those have better weapons than the Zealot - I can't see a reason why it shouldn't get something to level the playing field. I love how these threads bring out people who have absolutely nothing worthwhile to add, but will shoot down a proposed boost just because they don't want to face the boosted ship. Does 500m3 drone bay scare you all so much? <-- fears the 5 Hammerheads of Doom. ----------- Fighting for the ideals of freespace, posthuman ethics, and rock & roll.
Bad'Boy	Posted - 2005.05.03 14:22:00 - [113] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Edited by: Istvaan Shogaatsu on 03/05/2005 14:18:51 Quote: would not adding screw it totaly up and leave ubeg *** pointless noob ship that cant kill a thing? I think so, yes (nicely dodged question though). Every other ship comes with inty defense in the form of drones or missiles, and some of those have better weapons than the Zealot - I can't see a reason why it shouldn't get something to level the playing field. I love how these threads bring out people who have absolutely nothing worthwhile to add, but will shoot down a proposed boost just because they don't want to face the boosted ship. Does 500m3 drone bay scare you all so much? Would adding 500m3 drone bay to Zealot make it 'gank everything'? dude...look at Eagle, no dronebay..dont dont come here with HE GOT missile thing, they are useless vs MWD frigs, same goes for cerberus... B.A.D.B.O.Y.: Biomechanical Android Designed for Battle and Online Yelling "Bad Boys,Bad Boys, what you gonna do, what you gonna do when WE come for yoU"
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2005.05.03 14:31:00 - [114] Edited by: Istvaan Shogaatsu on 03/05/2005 14:33:35 Wrong. Missiles can be hell for an inty, if you say different, you're delusional. Answer that one question. Would adding 500m3 drone bay make Zealot own everything snip? trolling/flaming removed - Sherkaner
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2005.05.03 14:42:00 - [115] Yeah but you're not backing your reasoning with anything, so your argument doesn't really hold water. It's firmly established that a Deimos has better firepower than a Zealot, and still gets 1000m3 drones. Muninn is brutal and it gets both drones and missiles. It's also firmly established that every HAC but the Zealot gets some form of anti inty weaponry along with its primary weapons and here you are with your fingers in your ears screaming "NO NO NO" for no reason I can discern. Oh well, about status quo for my threads.
Bad'Boy	Posted - 2005.05.03 14:46:00 - [116] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Yeah but you're not backing your reasoning with anything, so your argument doesn't really hold water. It's firmly established that a Deimos has better firepower than a Zealot, and still gets 1000m3 drones. Muninn is brutal and it gets both drones and missiles. It's also firmly established that every HAC but the Zealot gets some form of anti inty weaponry along with its primary weapons and here you are with your fingers in your ears screaming "NO NO NO" for no reason I can discern. Oh well, about status quo for my threads. what does deimos got to do with it?? zealot Got much longer range, momental ammo swap, great tank/damage, much faster then deimos... ok, whats eagles defence agains frigs? cerb? and NO missiles sux vs frigs(intys especialy) B.A.D.B.O.Y.: Biomechanical Android Designed for Battle and Online Yelling "Bad Boys,Bad Boys, what you gonna do, what you gonna do when WE come for yoU"
Bad'Boy	Posted - 2005.05.03 14:50:00 - [117] and yes zealot go defence agains frigs, ever heard of tracking mods? target painters? or even webs? B.A.D.B.O.Y.: Biomechanical Android Designed for Battle and Online Yelling "Bad Boys,Bad Boys, what you gonna do, what you gonna do when WE come for yoU"
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2005.05.03 14:51:00 - [118] It has everything to do with it. See, the way you answer the following question shows us whether you're arguing out of genuine concern for game balance, or whether you just want to make a proposed boost sound as bad as possible so it doesn't happen to serve your own purposes. So answer. Would adding 500m3 drone bay to Zealot make it overpowered? It's half the drone bay a Deimos has, and no-one has problems with the Deimos, even though its primary weapon (blaster) firepower is like, 40% higher than a Zealot according to TomB's graphs.
Eyeshadow	Posted - 2005.05.03 14:57:00 - [119] Edited by: Eyeshadow on 03/05/2005 15:02:06 flaming removed - Sherkaner any missile smaller than a cruise is no problem to any ceptor at all. If u get caught by hvy/lights out of web range u deserve to be shot. Your entire basis for this argument is that zealot has no ceptor defense. Is that correct? Cos if it is, stfu now. I want some way to kill claws/stilletos/crows and any other long range ceptor that hangs outside web range when im in my blaster setup deimos if you get ur 500 drone bay. And please dont give me the medium drone bull**. Without a web, medium drones are of absolutely no use against long range ceptors. damage output of zealot is on a par with deimos but you have the extra range to play with. If we're talking real life setups, the deimos will run anti matter, not iron or any other ammo (unless their a noob or think it may provide some advantage cos it dont). that gives him an optimal of ~2km and a fairly tasty fall off of ~7km with decent skill. Zealot can hit at 25km+. THAT is the single most important thing to remember. Yes ur dmg output may blow at that range with radio/microwave BUT you can do dmg at that range, my blaster setup deimos is still sucking cap to try and get in range and chances are it wont. I really dont see this argument having valid points. They both do what they do, and do it well. Both deal shed loads of damage for a cruiser. Zealot v deimos in a real life battle prolly aint gonna happen and even it did, an ishtar, 1on1, would****the pair of them easily which isnt overpowered. Its main offense is easily destroyed with 1 smartie or if the ishtar has to bail out quickly it will lose it all. THAT is the price you pay for the dmg output that it can dish. The price the zealot pays for not having deimos dmg is that it can deal it at a lot longer range. As for 500m3 drone bay being overpowered? Probably not, but its also pointless as the zealot doesnt need it Forums: Sharks - MC
Bad'Boy	Posted - 2005.05.03 14:58:00 - [120] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu It has everything to do with it. See, the way you answer the following question shows us whether you're arguing out of genuine concern for game balance, or whether you just want to make a proposed boost sound as bad as possible so it doesn't happen to serve your own purposes. So answer. Would adding 500m3 drone bay to Zealot make it overpowered? It's half the drone bay a Deimos has, and no-one has problems with the Deimos, even though its primary weapon (blaster) firepower is like, 40% higher than a Zealot according to TomB's graphs. and you'r awoidning this " why doez zealot need dronbay when there are other who doesnt have it either?" and have firepower like 90%less then zealot B.A.D.B.O.Y.: Biomechanical Android Designed for Battle and Online Yelling "Bad Boys,Bad Boys, what you gonna do, what you gonna do when WE come for yoU"
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2005.05.03 15:04:00 - [121] Edited by: Istvaan Shogaatsu on 03/05/2005 15:10:25 Originally by: Eyeshadow Your entire basis for this argument is that zealot has no ceptor defense. Is that correct? Cos if it is, stfu now. I want some way to kill claws/stilletos/crows and any other long range ceptor that hangs outside web range when im in my blaster setup deimos if you get ur 500 drone bay. And please dont give me the medium drone bull***. Without a web, medium drones are of absolutely no use against long range ceptors. snip* Mediums not good enough? So use lights. The key difference here is, you have the option in your Deimos, and a Zealot doesn't. snip Originally by: Bad'Boy and you'r awoidning this " why doez zealot need dronbay when there are other who doesnt have it either?" and have firepower like 90%less then zealot I'm not avoiding it, I must have answered it five times now - because it has no form of inty defense, whereas other HACs do. Btw, you still haven't answered my question yet. Every time I ask it, you just deflect it with another question. Yes or no answer please. flaming/trolling removed - Sherkaner
Arud	Posted - 2005.05.03 15:10:00 - [122] one question Was the Zealot overpowered compared to the Demios before the pulse nerf?
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2005.05.03 15:12:00 - [123] Not nearly.
Dionysus Davinci	Posted - 2005.05.03 15:15:00 - [124] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Hi, I like to cry that I can no longer use pulse long range and now have a reason to use beams. Also, it isn't fare that blasters do more damage, even though I can start shooting at them much sooner and eat away their shields while they will still not even be within attacking range of me. I also fail to relieze that because blasters require you to be so damn close, use a lot of energy with the ships small core, I fail to reliaze that this makes the Gallente ships far from overpowered. In fact, if I stopped whining for 5 minutes I might actually figure out they are quite the pain in the ass because blasters are either a clear make or a quick break setup. I mean jesuses, I wish blasters had longer optimal then around 2.5-3km (using antimatter because any other heavy shortrange is just silly) and had nice base optimal of 12km that allowed me to warp in at 15km and start shooting up the place right away.
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2005.05.03 15:15:00 - [125] Edited by: Istvaan Shogaatsu on 03/05/2005 15:17:11 Quote: woooo there boyo, this entire thread is comparing dmg output of a deimos with 10 mediums to a zealot with no drone bay. if u want me to carry lights then lets not take the drone bay into the equation cos the dmg output of lights is little over zero. Um, no, this entire thread is about getting the Zealot a measure of defence against interceptors that it lacks when compared to other heavy assault cruisers without any reasonable justification for that deficit. Let's not lose sight of that, shall we? So hey, by the way, let's get this straight: Medium drones according to you are worthless against interceptors. So are lights. Apparently, drones are completely worthless against interceptors. Why are you arguing again?
Kaeten	Posted - 2005.05.03 15:16:00 - [126] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Yeah but you're not backing your reasoning with anything, so your argument doesn't really hold water. It's firmly established that a Deimos has better firepower than a Zealot, and still gets 1000m3 drones. Muninn is brutal and it gets both drones and missiles. It's also firmly established that every HAC but the Zealot gets some form of anti inty weaponry along with its primary weapons and here you are with your fingers in your ears screaming "NO NO NO" for no reason I can discern. Oh well, about status quo for my threads. range my friend a demoius NEEDS to get close to do its stuff. A zealot can gank a demoius at range. If the demoius gets close warp out. You amarr lovers are too lazy to do anything except press the f(x) buttons ___________________________________ Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante
Oberon Oblique	Posted - 2005.05.03 15:18:00 - [127] The pulse "fix" hit the zelot hard, tru dat. I would suggest a boost in grid to amarr frigs and cruisers (HAC's too) to permit the fitting of beams. Im not talking a crazy boost, just like 5-10% to ease the pain of that nasty pulse "fix" pill shoved where the sun dont shine. -The mind is strong and the flesh is weak, but oh the flesh...
Eyeshadow	Posted - 2005.05.03 15:19:00 - [128] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Um, no, this entire thread is about getting the Zealot a measure of defence against interceptors that it lacks when compared to other heavy assault cruisers without any reasonable justification for that deficit. Let's not lose sight of that, shall we? compared to the eagle it has no more defense against ceptors. Not many eagle pilots will fit a web and it has no drone bay (or does it have the 250 of moa? either way its as good as zero). and heavy missiles wont hit a long range interceptor (blaster ranis v any ship carrying missiles is suicide). Hell even heavy missiles from a cerberus wont hit a long range ceptor. So its not zealot < any other hac on the inty defense front Forums: Sharks - MC
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2005.05.03 15:19:00 - [129] Instead of coming up with new ways to squeeze a few new insults into your posts, I challenge any of you to answer the following question: Would adding 500m3 drone bay to the Zealot make it overpowered? I don't think you can.
Eyeshadow	Posted - 2005.05.03 15:21:00 - [130] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu So hey, by the way, let's get this straight: Medium drones according to you are worthless against interceptors. So are lights. Apparently, drones are completely worthless against interceptors. Why are you arguing again? lights in quantity will kill a ceptor (like 10+ so only an ishtar/domi) but even then it takes a long time. I just dont see why ur zealot should have option for everything. It should have an achilles heel, this is it Forums: Sharks - MC
Eyeshadow	Posted - 2005.05.03 15:22:00 - [131] Edited by: Eyeshadow on 03/05/2005 15:22:23 Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Instead of coming up with new ways to squeeze a few new insults into your posts, I challenge any of you to answer the following question: Would adding 500m3 drone bay to the Zealot make it overpowered? I don't think you can. i answered ur question (and i only insulted u in one of my posts). It wont make it overpowered, its just i dont see any reason why it should be given it Forums: Sharks - MC
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2005.05.03 15:31:00 - [132] Yes, Gariuys, I am truly interested in balance. I have made my proposal while trying to keep in line with other heavy assault cruisers and firmly believe the addition of a 500m3 drone bay would do much to restore a ship which has been hurt by the nerf of weapons it was clearly built around. I feel that my proposal doesn't upset the balance of power in ships, nor does it give the Zealot any sort of unfair advantage over existing HACs.
Julien Derida	Posted - 2005.05.03 15:32:00 - [133] Well, here's my little contribution to this thread. 1. Try to play nice everybody (especially you Eye ;) ) 2. Against a smart interceptor pilot, medium drones are only effective if you are also running a web. If you are flying a Blasterranis and turn off your MWD when there are drones about, you deserve to die. 3. Light drones cannot catch any decent long-range interceptor (i.e. Crusader, Claw, Malediction or Crow) when orbitting at 15km. 4. 500m3 drone space on the Zealot would not overpower it, and therefore I think it's a fairly reasonable request. 5. Just because the Zealot was amazing pre pulse-nerf doesn't mean it is now. It was hit very hard by that nerf. Please remember that before you start shouting "OMG Zealot is uber". ---------------------------------------- Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK
Kaeten	Posted - 2005.05.03 15:34:00 - [134] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Instead of coming up with new ways to squeeze a few new insults into your posts, I challenge any of you to answer the following question: Would adding 500m3 drone bay to the Zealot make it overpowered? I don't think you can. how about if zealot gets an extra 500m3 drones bay a demoious gets an extra bounes, after all we have an mwd bounes, right? Which means if we don't have an mwd we would lose out? So the mwd is out the window meaning the demoius goes fast. Your zealot however can warp out at any sign of a demoius or just gank when hes trying to get close. The 500m3 drones space will not make a diffrence. And also why should the zealot be good at everything eh? The demoius sure isnt. ___________________________________ Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante
Gariuys	Posted - 2005.05.03 15:42:00 - [135] Well I don't think it was hit hard by the pulse nerf, and it makes a nice beam platform as well. You're assuming it was build around pulses, while it has a optimal bonus. The state of pulses was such that fitting beams was pointless. Not anymore. Is a Zealot currently weaker then the other HACs? And no bull about frig defense pls. Cause we are all aware that neither heavy missiles or drones are effective frig counters without aid from other modules that can be used as effectively by a Zealot as by any other HAC. Would 500m3 drone space mess with things, perhaps not when used with lights. For frigate defense. But exactly how many people will do that... right noone. It will be used for 5 meds. Or even if you can use 10 lights, ( unlikely for a amarr pilot, 8 is probably best, maybe 9 ) It's added dps against the stuff it's build to fight. And that's not frigates. And it doesn't need any dps added. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Darken Two	Posted - 2005.05.03 15:45:00 - [136] Istavaan almost everyone in this thread disagrees with you, so maybe its time to quit arguing for something that isn't necessary. I mean I'm happy for you to get you 500m3 drone bay if my deimos can get 24km ranged blasters and 7 lowslots and more speed. That would be fair wouldnt it. On a more serious note, Zealot doesnt need a drone bay, so there no need for it even tho it might not make it overpowered. And btw deimos as has many weak spots especially considering its fighting style taht just looking at its dmg output means feck all in a real combat situation. Why dont you just DIE DIE DIE !!!!
Gariuys	Posted - 2005.05.03 15:46:00 - [137] He does have a point though, you want flexibility, and use a deimos as a example. But just how much flexibility does a deimos have. Amarr get their flexibility from different source then missiles or drones. Utility higs, lotsa lows, crystal swappping. Medium range guns, that still do VERY respectable damage. HACs are specialized ships, with Muninn as the only real exception with a mix of missiles guns and drones. But that's a minnie ship. Not a amarr one. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2005.05.03 15:46:00 - [138] Do you fly one?
Gariuys	Posted - 2005.05.03 15:47:00 - [139] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Do you fly one? Do you? Fly a deimos that is, or a Muninn. Or... ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2005.05.03 15:48:00 - [140] Yep.
Darken Two	Posted - 2005.05.03 16:12:00 - [141] I fly the caldari and gallente ones and I think both have their uses. The observation is that people are so frickin obsessed with DPS that they never take into account any actual combat situations before comin on here and spouting some half formed idea or the other. Ok fine suppose you do get the drone bay what then? are you going to be using it as a drone carrier or going to depend on the drones to increase your dps by a massive asmount? I think not, so why add something thats not really necessary. And if you so badly want to hit intys, I suggest a target painter that will do the work just fine. And what about the utility slot for nos? that doesnt count I guess. Next thing you know theer will be deimos pilots asking for missile slots, eagle pilots asking for a mwd bonus and so on and so forth. Diversity is the lifeblood of this game, I am totally against anything that makes all ships alike but with different skins. Why dont you just DIE DIE DIE !!!!
Meridius	Posted - 2005.05.03 16:13:00 - [142] You know whats funny. After cruisers get an agility fix, the Deimos is going to kick even more ass because covering distance won't be such an issue. It will become more like a Crusader vs Taranis. ...except that this Taranis has a drone bay that matters, 500+ more HP, more guns, more cap and next to no MWD penalty... Gallente get 2 kick ass HACs, 1 EW ship that can still deal a great amount of damage and another that does a back breaking amount of damage. We had one good hac that nobody ever complained about being overpowered and it got nerfed. GG ________________________________________________________
Sherkaner	Posted - 2005.05.03 16:21:00 - [143] Thread cleanup complete. Please be nice to each other now, don't want to have to do that again forum rules \| [email protected]
Darken Two	Posted - 2005.05.03 16:53:00 - [144] Originally by: Meridius You know whats funny. After cruisers get an agility fix, the Deimos is going to kick even more ass because covering distance won't be such an issue. It will become more like a Crusader vs Taranis. ...except that this Taranis has a drone bay that matters, 500+ more HP, more guns, more cap and next to no MWD penalty... Gallente get 2 kick ass HACs, 1 EW ship that can still deal a great amount of damage and another that does a back breaking amount of damage. We had one good hac that nobody ever complained about being overpowered and it got nerfed. GG That might be but lets worry about it when we get to it eh? Its like teh missile overhaul its always on teh horizon but never quite gets here. Why dont you just DIE DIE DIE !!!!
Meridius	Posted - 2005.05.03 16:57:00 - [145] Originally by: Darken Two That might be but lets worry about it when we get to it eh? Its like teh missile overhaul its always on teh horizon but never quite gets here. Well not quite, missile changes have been in que for like 1year+. TomB said that cruiser changes would be in with the next patch fairly recently ________________________________________________________
Darken Two	Posted - 2005.05.03 17:02:00 - [146] Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Darken Two That might be but lets worry about it when we get to it eh? Its like teh missile overhaul its always on teh horizon but never quite gets here. Well not quite, missile changes have been in que for like 1year+. TomB said that cruiser changes would be in with the next patch fairly recently Comeon Meridius we both been playin this game long wnough to know what Tomb means when he says stuff like that. Why dont you just DIE DIE DIE !!!!
Dionysus Davinci	Posted - 2005.05.03 17:02:00 - [147] Edited by: Dionysus Davinci on 03/05/2005 17:05:01 Originally by: Elve Sorrow Whats the range with Heavy Ion IIs, on a Deimos with lvl4 HAC and using Iron ammo? (I know Zealot gets roughly 37 with HAC 5) You are looking at a really, really ****ty range still with ammo that sucks total ass doing more then half the damage of antimatter. And with such a low opitmal, % bonuses don't make much differnace. Anyone that uses iron on blasters deserves to die.
Meridius	Posted - 2005.05.03 17:05:00 - [148] Originally by: Darken Two Comeon Meridius we both been playin this game long wnough to know what Tomb means when he says stuff like that. ________________________________________________________
AlphA13	Posted - 2005.05.03 17:11:00 - [149] Edited by: AlphA13 on 03/05/2005 17:12:27 I completly agree with Istevaan + Meridus.. Zealot needs a dronebay( just 500m¦) for all the mentioned reason = interceptor defence. And why are all Deimos users crying?? this change is not meant to take the dmg/s Throne...and why are u compairing things like indy defence with blasters with 12 km range.. thats just Bull**** to say it kind. some pvp is actually done 1vs1 its sad that a ship like Zealot will fall to a taranis 1vs1 (if u have a proper pvp setup= not only meant to kill frigs) What is so hard to see the necessarity to to boost the Zealot a bit after the pulsenerf?? I mean none of us asks to make the zealot 1000 dps .. but to make it ok for fights against 2 interceptors. And I really don¦t see the point in saying.. you can warp out cause u choose distance in a zealot.. gainst a normal interceptor pilot u will be scrambled before u "choose" your range. In two days tomorrow will be yesterday
Darken Two	Posted - 2005.05.03 17:19:00 - [150] Originally by: AlphA13 Edited by: AlphA13 on 03/05/2005 17:12:27 I completly agree with Istevaan + Meridus.. Zealot needs a dronebay( just 500m¦) for all the mentioned reason = interceptor defence. And why are all Deimos users crying?? this change is not meant to take the dmg/s Throne...and why are u compairing things like indy defence with blasters with 12 km range.. thats just Bull**** to say it kind. some pvp is actually done 1vs1 its sad that a ship like Zealot will fall to a taranis 1vs1 (if u have a proper pvp setup= not only meant to kill frigs) What is so hard to see the necessarity to to boost the Zealot a bit after the pulsenerf?? I mean none of us asks to make the zealot 1000 dps .. but to make it ok for fights against 2 interceptors. And I really don¦t see the point in saying.. you can warp out cause u choose distance in a zealot.. gainst a normal interceptor pilot u will be scrambled before u "choose" your range. Why dont you just use a target painter or a web and shoot the inty with your pulses? Does it take that much effort to think of a web? Why dont you just DIE DIE DIE !!!!
AlphA13	Posted - 2005.05.03 17:22:00 - [151] Edited by: AlphA13 on 03/05/2005 17:23:34 @ darken Two serious think about what I have wrote, and then post again... In two days tomorrow will be yesterday
Sangxianc	Posted - 2005.05.03 17:22:00 - [152] Originally by: Elve Sorrow I've better things to carry in my hold, and they don't involve cap charges nor loot. Exotic dancers ftw \o/ - Any man's death diminishes me, as I am involved in mankinde; And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee.
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2005.05.03 17:23:00 - [153] Originally by: Sangxianc Originally by: Elve Sorrow I've better things to carry in my hold, and they don't involve cap charges nor loot. Exotic dancers ftw \o/ Who told you that? 0.o /Elve New Video out! Watch me!
Darken Two	Posted - 2005.05.03 17:25:00 - [154] Originally by: AlphA13 Edited by: AlphA13 on 03/05/2005 17:23:34 @ darken Two serious think about what I have wrote, and then post again... I dont get it. Why is my suggestion bad? Any long range inty isnt really a threat to a zealot. Your only problem is possibly the taranis which can be countered using a web or a target painter combined with a Nos. I dont see why you need a drone bay to be effective against intys. Why dont you just DIE DIE DIE !!!!
Gariuys	Posted - 2005.05.03 18:37:00 - [155] Edited by: Gariuys on 03/05/2005 18:44:37 Edited by: Gariuys on 03/05/2005 18:42:06 Originally by: AlphA13 Edited by: AlphA13 on 03/05/2005 17:12:27 I completly agree with Istevaan + Meridus.. Zealot needs a dronebay( just 500m¦) for all the mentioned reason = interceptor defence. And why are all Deimos users crying?? this change is not meant to take the dmg/s Throne...and why are u compairing things like indy defence with blasters with 12 km range.. thats just Bull**** to say it kind. some pvp is actually done 1vs1 its sad that a ship like Zealot will fall to a taranis 1vs1 (if u have a proper pvp setup= not only meant to kill frigs) What is so hard to see the necessarity to to boost the Zealot a bit after the pulsenerf?? I mean none of us asks to make the zealot 1000 dps .. but to make it ok for fights against 2 interceptors. And I really don¦t see the point in saying.. you can warp out cause u choose distance in a zealot.. gainst a normal interceptor pilot u will be scrambled before u "choose" your range. IF 500m3 drone bay is your defense against 2 interceptors, you're dead. That's where the argument for it fails. So far there's been no argument that holds ground for giving it a drone bay. Pulses where nerfed. So Zealot should get something else ( then why where pulses nerfed? ) Zealot can't defend against inties ( which ain't true, and 500m3 drone bay ain't gonna save you ) And by god, so every ship should be able to counter any other ship. My deimos dies to Muninn, dies to blasterthron. Dies to smart inties, dies to so many things it's not even funnny. But it's good at it's thing, same for Zealot. And a taranis killing of cruisers, well. Yeah it's good at that. If they don't have nossies, webs, painters, smartbombs, and when webbed, missiles, good tracking turrets, any and every drone. But OMG if you only bring turrets cap rechargers and heat sinks you're gonna die to inties, cause you don't have a drone bay. And it is hard to see the necesitty to boost the zealot, cause I don't think it needs it. Doesn't take a rcket scientist to figure that out. If i thought it was necessary a drone bay isn't a bad idea for a zealot really. Background wise it might be a bit problematic. But looking at the arma, it's not too far fetched. ( compaired too a 5th turret and more grid for instance lol ) ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Meridius	Posted - 2005.05.03 19:08:00 - [156] Originally by: Gariuys IF 500m3 drone bay is your defense against 2 interceptors, you're dead. That's where the argument for it fails. So far there's been no argument that holds ground for giving it a drone bay. Pulses where nerfed. So Zealot should get something else ( then why where pulses nerfed? ) Zealot can't defend against inties ( which ain't true, and 500m3 drone bay ain't gonna save you ) First off, i don't want a drone bay. Thats mundane. I do not mind being completely vulnerable to snipers as long as i have something to compensate for that. It's an Amarri ship, it needs more turrets or at the very least as many turrets as other races. The way RP has been thrown out the door is utter crap. Do you see Gallente ships with more launchers then Caldari? Do you see Amarr ships with bigger drone bays then the Gallente? Do you see any other class of ship where the Minmatar have more turrets then Amarr? No of course not, each race has it's thing. We are turret ***s. Pulses for nerfed for Zealot? Please do not tell me you actually believe the devs thought that every Amarr ship using pulses were overpowered. You really think they sat down and discussed how the punisher/malediction/crusader/retribution/vengeance/maller ect ect were overpowered? They didn't, it was a quick and sloppy nerf to please people whining about the Armageddon, you know, that 40page thread that had no mention of anything but the use of mega pulse on Armageddons. The Zealot is a ranged fighter, it is not meant to fight at close range. It gets a 10% range bonus per lvl so if the devs though heavy pulses for overpowered in terms of range why the ** did they give it that range bonus in the first place The Zealot should get a 5th turret, no drone bay, no missles and it's grid is fine as is. It will be able to mount a rack of heavy pulses but it won't be able to mount much else. ________________________________________________________
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.05.03 19:09:00 - [157] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 03/05/2005 19:15:11 Quote: Arguing that a HAC should be able to defend itself if tackled AND have massive firepower is just AMUSING. Not as amusing as the realization that every other HAC besides the Zealot can do just that. Heh. Cerebrus can't kill at long range. Eagle gets MELTED 1v1ing a BS. Two cruisers destroy a Vagabond. I've SEEN these things happen If you want a drone bay, what are you going to give up for it? Because I don't see it needs an ADDITION. Some armour? Some cap? Some grid? "As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade"
Darken Two	Posted - 2005.05.03 19:13:00 - [158] Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Gariuys IF 500m3 drone bay is your defense against 2 interceptors, you're dead. That's where the argument for it fails. So far there's been no argument that holds ground for giving it a drone bay. Pulses where nerfed. So Zealot should get something else ( then why where pulses nerfed? ) Zealot can't defend against inties ( which ain't true, and 500m3 drone bay ain't gonna save you ) First off, i don't want a drone bay. Thats mundane. I do not mind being completely vulnerable to snipers as long as i have something to compensate for that. It's an Amarri ship, it needs more turrets or at the very least as many turrets as other races. The way RP has been thrown out the door is utter crap. Do you see Gallente ships with more launchers then Caldari? Do you see Amarr ships with bigger drone bays then the Gallente? Do you see any other class of ship where the Minmatar have more turrets then Amarr? No of course not, each race has it's thing. We are turret ***s. Pulses for nerfed for Zealot? Please do not tell me you actually believe the devs thought that every Amarr ship using pulses were overpowered. You really think they sat down and discussed how the punisher/malediction/crusader/retribution/vengeance/maller ect ect were overpowered? They didn't, it was a quick and sloppy nerf to please people whining about the Armageddon, you know, that 40page thread that had no mention of anything but the use of mega pulse on Armageddons. The Zealot is a ranged fighter, it is not meant to fight at close range. It gets a 10% range bonus per lvl so if the devs though heavy pulses for overpowered in terms of range why the did they give it that range bonus in the first place The Zealot should get a 5th turret, no drone bay, no missles and it's grid is fine as is. It will be able to mount a rack of heavy pulses but it won't be able to mount much else. I think the real problem with the 5th turret is what happens when people use 5 turrets and stack a load of dmg mods in lows. That could cause a lot of imbalance. And I really dont want any kinda limit on how many dmg mods can be put on a ship. Maybe a good compromise would be to give it a bit more grid so it could fit beams but then deimos users would be **ed that they cant fit a full rack of neutrons. Why dont you just DIE DIE DIE !!!!
Gariuys	Posted - 2005.05.03 19:20:00 - [159] Edited by: Gariuys on 03/05/2005 19:21:51 oopsie ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Gariuys	Posted - 2005.05.03 19:20:00 - [160] Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Gariuys IF 500m3 drone bay is your defense against 2 interceptors, you're dead. That's where the argument for it fails. So far there's been no argument that holds ground for giving it a drone bay. Pulses where nerfed. So Zealot should get something else ( then why where pulses nerfed? ) Zealot can't defend against inties ( which ain't true, and 500m3 drone bay ain't gonna save you ) First off, i don't want a drone bay. Thats mundane. I do not mind being completely vulnerable to snipers as long as i have something to compensate for that. It's an Amarri ship, it needs more turrets or at the very least as many turrets as other races. The way RP has been thrown out the door is utter crap. Do you see Gallente ships with more launchers then Caldari? Do you see Amarr ships with bigger drone bays then the Gallente? Do you see any other class of ship where the Minmatar have more turrets then Amarr? No of course not, each race has it's thing. We are turret ***s. Pulses for nerfed for Zealot? Please do not tell me you actually believe the devs thought that every Amarr ship using pulses were overpowered. You really think they sat down and discussed how the punisher/malediction/crusader/retribution/vengeance/maller ect ect were overpowered? They didn't, it was a quick and sloppy nerf to please people whining about the Armageddon, you know, that 40page thread that had no mention of anything but the use of mega pulse on Armageddons. The Zealot is a ranged fighter, it is not meant to fight at close range. It gets a 10% range bonus per lvl so if the devs though heavy pulses for overpowered in terms of range why the ** did they give it that range bonus in the first place The Zealot should get a 5th turret, no drone bay, no missles and it's grid is fine as is. It will be able to mount a rack of heavy pulses but it won't be able to mount much else. Maybe cause it's supposed to use heavy beams? By god man, pulses aren't supposed to be your bloody long range weapons. On a Zealot they have very nice range, but they made beams obsolete. You know beams, the thingies that have more range them pulses for less damage. The trade off point where beams do more damage then pulses is now shorter. And a quick and sloppy nerf? How many months ago was this introduced, you call half a year a quick nerf? Pulse nerf was not because of the arma, the arma was the biggest show case of what was wrong. And fine, remove ROF bonus. And you can have your 5th turret slot. Can't believe your argument boils down too, I don't like only having 4 turrets even though my bonuses and slot layout turn those 4 turrets into enough destructive power for 8 turrets. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Gariuys	Posted - 2005.05.03 19:22:00 - [161] Oh and fitting a RCU on a Zealot is not considered to be criminal you know. Most long rangers do it. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Meridius	Posted - 2005.05.03 19:29:00 - [162] Originally by: Darken Two I think the real problem with the 5th turret is what happens when people use 5 turrets and stack a **load of dmg mods in lows. That could cause a lot of imbalance. And I really dont want any kinda limit on how many dmg mods can be put on a ship. Maybe a good compromise would be to give it a bit more grid so it could fit beams but then deimos users would be ed that they cant fit a full rack of neutrons. A fifth turret would give it a greater damage output then a Deimos in full gank setup. It comes with penalties, want to hear? Less cap, lowest resist is thermal which is the most common damage type in game, no defense, less 1000m3 drone bay, 718.75 less hp. 718.75** less HP. All for 5km more range, sounds balanced to me. ________________________________________________________
LUKEC	Posted - 2005.05.03 19:35:00 - [163] jaik... 5more km with multis... and 10 with xray... and 24 with microwave... sounds like all in wonder... and now you want 5. gun and possibly some more dmg... c'mon
Isonkon Serikain	Posted - 2005.05.03 19:42:00 - [164] Why a drone bay on the zealot? Meridius is right, its silly. Zealot is fine as it is. You can still fit 4 pulses, and if you want to hit from afar 4 beams... Stop whining about not being able to take on everything in your Uber zealot. stuff happens.
Meridius	Posted - 2005.05.03 19:44:00 - [165] Originally by: LUKEC jaik... 5more km with multis... and 10 with xray... and 24 with microwave... sounds like all in wonder... and now you want 5. gun and possibly some more dmg... c'mon Wow and microwave does really good damage right? EM armor hardner > lasers You guys might want to check crystal stats again, you'll see that thermal damage has gone down the tube and EM is up. This makes tanking against lasers ridiculously easy on armor. ________________________________________________________
Gariuys	Posted - 2005.05.03 19:52:00 - [166] Edited by: Gariuys on 03/05/2005 19:59:42 Nope if you're using microwave in pulses, you should be using beams. But you can go too 24km and still do damage, try that with blasters. And tanking explosive is ridiculously easy on shields. Your point? That lasers against people that armor tank and fit a EM hardener specifically to reduce damage from lasers don't take much damage from low damage ( EM heavy ) crystals. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Gariuys	Posted - 2005.05.03 19:58:00 - [167] Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Darken Two I think the real problem with the 5th turret is what happens when people use 5 turrets and stack a **load of dmg mods in lows. That could cause a lot of imbalance. And I really dont want any kinda limit on how many dmg mods can be put on a ship. Maybe a good compromise would be to give it a bit more grid so it could fit beams but then deimos users would be ed that they cant fit a full rack of neutrons. A fifth turret would give it a greater damage output then a Deimos in full gank setup. It comes with penalties, want to hear? Less cap, lowest resist is thermal which is the most common damage type in game, no defense, less 1000m3 drone bay, 718.75 less hp. 718.75** less HP. All for 5km more range, sounds balanced to me. Lowest resist is thermal, but it's your only low resist, argueint that a amarr hac is poor tank cause it has a single reasonably low base resist, is well nvm. Oh and stop counting structure. And why do we only get deimos vs zealot in here anyway. And you got a nag for making things sound unbalanced. You manage to turn strenghts into supposed weaknesses. ( the resists thingie for instance ) ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Gariuys	Posted - 2005.05.03 20:03:00 - [168] For a thread I planned on staying away from I sure do reply a lot. Oh well, can't be helped. Nite thread, be sure to get lotsa nice replies while I'm sleeping. Work is boring. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Meridius	Posted - 2005.05.03 20:37:00 - [169] Originally by: Gariuys Edited by: Gariuys on 03/05/2005 19:59:42 Nope if you're using microwave in pulses, you should be using beams. But you can go too 24km and still do damage, try that with blasters. And tanking explosive is ridiculously easy on shields. Your point? That lasers against people that armor tank and fit a EM hardener specifically to reduce damage from lasers don't take much damage from low damage ( EM heavy ) crystals. Whats more common, explosive or thermal? They are on opposite sides of the spectrum ffs. EMP, minmatards most used ammo does 45% EM with the rest split between explosive and kinetic. Amarr don't deal explosive. Gallente don't deal explosive. So yeah, i have great resists to the least common damage type ingame, yay. So yes i am going to use this because everything factors into balance, especially something as significant as this. Amarr hacs are the only ones not to get any racial bonus to thermal. You should know this stuff ________________________________________________________
Darken Two	Posted - 2005.05.03 20:59:00 - [170] Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Darken Two I think the real problem with the 5th turret is what happens when people use 5 turrets and stack a **load of dmg mods in lows. That could cause a lot of imbalance. And I really dont want any kinda limit on how many dmg mods can be put on a ship. Maybe a good compromise would be to give it a bit more grid so it could fit beams but then deimos users would be ed that they cant fit a full rack of neutrons. A fifth turret would give it a greater damage output then a Deimos in full gank setup. It comes with penalties, want to hear? Less cap, lowest resist is thermal which is the most common damage type in game, no defense, less 1000m3 drone bay, 718.75 less hp. 718.75** less HP. All for 5km more range, sounds balanced to me. Dont count structure thats really not a basis for comparison. If you look at it that way, Megathron is the ship with most HP. Another thing, Blaster users just dont have the option for changing range because even the long range ammo isnt going to make any significant range difference from AM ammo. Where as Zealot does have the option of varying range even tho its at the expense of Dmg. As for the Cap issue, yea deimos got more cp, but it also MUST use an mwd plus the fact the blasters for some bizzare reason use more cap than lasers on an amarr ship. Please a Zealot has a higher base speed meaning if the Zealot were to put on an mwd, it would be faster than a deimos. And for the lowest thermal resist thing, that means that when you tank, no matter how you tank it, that particular resist ends up being the most tanked for, because of the whole stackign calculation thing. I dont see why the Zealot should do more dmg than a deimos to be absolutely honest especially since the deimos pilot has got to get in close, which usually means kill or be killed. The margin for error when you're piloting a deimos is very very small whereas a zealot has a lot more options. Why dont you just DIE DIE DIE !!!!
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2005.05.03 22:02:00 - [171] So like, I tried equipping heavy beam IIs on the Zealot. Now if I want to keep my MWD, I have to chuck out my armour repairer, no hope of fitting it.
Morimo Gariushi	Posted - 2005.05.03 23:41:00 - [172] remind me again, heavy beams are equivalent to what gun in minnie terms? Cos no minnie hac can fit a full load of 720's without pg mods, and thats without putting anything in mids or lows. Autocannons are the way to go with them, and they are 4 steps down the med projectile ladder. Thats if you want to tank half decently. I shouldnt get involved in these ship discussions tho, only fly minnie, and everyones ship sounds better than mine anyway :) P.S. Amarr people, stop winging. Its not becoming of haughty arrogant race, crying like that.
Meridius	Posted - 2005.05.03 23:55:00 - [173] Originally by: Morimo Gariushi Cos no minnie hac can fit a full load of 720's without pg mods, and thats without putting anything in mids or lows. 1) There is no cruiser sized Tachyon Beam (wish there was). 2) You get missles and drones for frigate defense 3) You can fit 4x 720 IIs w/out grid upgrades, the same amount we can ________________________________________________________
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2005.05.04 00:05:00 - [174] My heavy beam II and your 650mm artillery II are about on par. No problems fitting those then, eh?
Dionysus Davinci	Posted - 2005.05.04 00:36:00 - [175] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu So like, I tried equipping heavy beam IIs on the Zealot. Now if I want to keep my MWD, I have to chuck out my armour repairer, no hope of fitting it. Translation: I want to be invinciable and make it completely impossiable for an blaster boat to catch me, in fact devs. Please wipe out any and all cons.
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2005.05.04 00:52:00 - [176] Originally by: Dionysus Duhvinci Translation: I want to be invinciable and make it completely impossiable for an blaster boat to catch me, in fact devs. Please wipe out any and all cons. Translation: I am a trendy halfwit who cannot come up with anything reasonable to post, so I throw in my insults blindly to be cool and participate. Also, my mother drank during pregnancy.
Dionysus Davinci	Posted - 2005.05.04 01:30:00 - [177] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Translation: I am a trendy halfwit who cannot come up with anything reasonable to post, so I throw in my insults blindly to be cool and participate. Also, my mother drank during pregnancy. Trendy is True Story. PS :words:
Selim	Posted - 2005.05.04 02:22:00 - [178] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu My heavy beam II and your 650mm artillery II are about on par. No problems fitting those then, eh? Wholly untrue. Considering of all cruiser weapons, 650mms do the least damage even with standard minmatar bonus, and considering the zealot gets two very NOT standard damage bonuses, heavy beam is better than 650mm any time, especially when the beam is on a zealot. By the way, zealot must be the easiest heavy assault to fit - if it has a little problem fitting its beams, multiply your frustration by (1.5)*(hours spent thinking of how to fit the damn thing). The result is how difficult it is to fit any other heavy cruiser.
Takrolimus	Posted - 2005.05.04 02:25:00 - [179] I dont understand why we would argue about the zealot (which IS underpowered when compared to the Deimos, agreed), When the Sacrilege is such a big pile of ass****. People go on and on about its "great tank". With lev 5 everything, and a Thermal Hardener and a T2 Adaptive Nano you get approx 80, 90, 80, 80 resists with <1000 armor WOW. That means that you can survive 4 volleys of torps, NOT 3!!!!!
Letifer Deus	Posted - 2005.05.04 03:04:00 - [180] Edited by: Letifer Deus on 04/05/2005 03:43:11 I said it in another thread, and I will say it again here: Next person to suggest a 5th turret for Zealot gets a free slap in the face. =] Not to mention whining that Deimos has more HP than zealot is utterly stupid. Compare Zealot hp to Ishtar or Vagabond HP. And compare Sac HP to Deimos... Also, how many Deimos pilots carry light drones? Anyone? No? Didn't think so... One could run lights, but 9-10 lights isn't going to do much of anything to an inty. So that leaves medium drones and web as anti-frig defence. Thus both Deimos and zealot need a web/some module to kill frigs/inties. Also, as far as explosive damage. I have found a lot of missle users use explosive missles, and explosive drones are quite popular as they are the fastests yet have better damage mod than EM drones. Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu So like, I tried equipping heavy beam IIs on the Zealot. Now if I want to keep my MWD, I have to chuck out my armour repairer, no hope of fitting it. So like, I tried equipping 250mm railgun IIs on the deimos. Now if I want to enable them, I have to run a PDU. Do you see how rediculous it is for you to whine that you can't fit a full set of heavy beam 2s, mwd, and armor repairer w/o PG mods? Besides, why do you need a MWD on a beam zealot anyways? Not to mention putting a MWD on any tanker except Deimos is silly. I am the OG PIIIIIMP
Meridius	Posted - 2005.05.04 03:38:00 - [181] Edited by: Meridius on 04/05/2005 03:37:59 Originally by: Letifer Deus Not to mention whining that Deimos has more HP than zealot is utterly stupid. Compare Zealot hp to Ishtar or Vagabond HP. And compare Sac HP to Deimos... Why? They are both damage dealing ships. The Sacrilege is a piece of ****, also. Only naive people get impressed by its tanking ability. We really only have 1 usefull HAC. I know the Deimos and Ishtar rock, i've heard people say good things about the Muninn and Vagabond. You know the Eagle is good and the Cerb = missile changes. ________________________________________________________
Liet Traep	Posted - 2005.05.04 03:42:00 - [182] I'd much rather see zealot get another turret slot and more pg and cpu so it can fit 5 heavy beam 2's.
Letifer Deus	Posted - 2005.05.04 03:46:00 - [183] Edited by: Letifer Deus on 04/05/2005 03:52:08 Originally by: Meridius Edited by: Meridius on 04/05/2005 03:37:59 Originally by: Letifer Deus Not to mention whining that Deimos has more HP than zealot is utterly stupid. Compare Zealot hp to Ishtar or Vagabond HP. And compare Sac HP to Deimos... Why? They are both damage dealing ships. Because that is how ALL of the HACs are setup. The HACs based on the higher tier cruisers have more HP. On top of this the Deimos ONLY has more HP than zealot because of structure, and let's be honest, structure is crap (especially crap because HACs have bonus to armor/shield resistances.) Zealot has the most armor, and more armor = more effective armor tanking. OK, so the HP whining should be done now, ok? Originally by: Liet Traep I'd much rather see zealot get another turret slot and more pg and cpu so it can fit 5 heavy beam 2's. So you want to have a HAC that can to 320dmg/sec with a single heat sink 2 with MF from outside of 20km? Yeah, that is real balanced. I don't have my stacking penalty spreadsheet here, but I can only imagine the DOT on 5x heavy beam 2s and 7x heat sink 2s. I am the OG PIIIIIMP
Selim	Posted - 2005.05.04 04:14:00 - [184] I truly can't believe that people think the zealot is underpowered. 7 lowslots, extremely easy to fit (almost to the point of absurdity), great damage and indeed it has good tanking potential, which is always, always overlooked. Its definitely a better tank than the vagabond, and probably the cerberus, for example, while outdamaging both and indeed its actually the second fastest/lightest heavy cruiser (to the vagabond (actually, maybe third - to the muninn - cant remember offhand)).
Letifer Deus	Posted - 2005.05.04 05:18:00 - [185] Originally by: Selim I truly can't believe that people think the zealot is underpowered. 7 lowslots, extremely easy to fit (almost to the point of absurdity), great damage and indeed it has good tanking potential, which is always, always overlooked. Its definitely a better tank than the vagabond, and probably the cerberus, for example, while outdamaging both and indeed its actually the second fastest/lightest heavy cruiser (to the vagabond (actually, maybe third - to the muninn - cant remember offhand)). I agree I am the OG PIIIIIMP
Gariuys	Posted - 2005.05.04 05:42:00 - [186] You have 7 low slots, wth is the problem with running a RCU and thermal hardener in those lows. a RCU to get a med armor rep, all long range weapons and a MWD is pretty much a given on any ship going for long range. Which is good, cause a long ranger has to sacrifice something to fit a mwd. It's a short rangers module. And yes Amarr don't get a free hardener for thermal. So you have to fit a hardener. Which HAC doesn't need to fit atleast one hardener to round out their damage types? ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Cracken	Posted - 2005.05.04 06:13:00 - [187] Edited by: ***en on 04/05/2005 06:14:52 look at the numbers they clear it up rather nicely zealot still has an insane dps and you want too make it more insane jesus talk about throwing balance out the window. someone calc dps with 5 hpII and radio and mf crystals. The thing is with the zealots current dps why are you complaining who wants a 700 dps! zealot not me we don't need another a minigankageddon. (Yes I pulled the dps out of my ass too prove a point.)
Julien Derida	Posted - 2005.05.04 06:23:00 - [188] Pulling numbers out of your ass is a really crappy way of proving a point. ---------------------------------------- Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK
Minuz1	Posted - 2005.05.04 06:31:00 - [189] Originally by: Julien Derida Pulling numbers out of your ass is a really crappy way of proving a point. ROFLMAO -Win if you can, lose if you must, but always cheat!!!!!
Cracken	Posted - 2005.05.04 06:35:00 - [190] Edited by: ***en on 04/05/2005 06:34:48 Originally by: Julien Derida Pulling numbers out of your ass is a really crappy way of proving a point. nuff said
Minuz1	Posted - 2005.05.04 07:14:00 - [191] back to the topic, how about getting the cap useage decrease switched out for a tracking boost on the zealot, or a "reduce signiture resolution of medium lasers" As someone said, I'm a lazy amarr pilot who just uses f1-f8 on my poc.....which is totally unfair because Raven pilots only have to use f1-f6! -Win if you can, lose if you must, but always cheat!!!!!
Sherkaner	Posted - 2005.05.04 07:19:00 - [192] Locked because of continued flaming/trolling after thread cleanup. forum rules \| [email protected]

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