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Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2005.05.02 16:03:00 - [1] topic edited - Sherkaner Everyone snip knows the Zealot was built around the heavy pulse laser - a gun that used to rock, but now no longer qualifies. It was created as a miniature gankageddon, fully expected to be equipped with four HPLs, a ton of heatsinks, and used as a gank platform. That's why it has one less turret than Deimos, that's why it has no drones whatsoever. But hey, here comes the pulse laser nerf. Suddenly, HPLs with multifrequency have barely over blaster range, but no comforting fifth turret slot or 1000m3 drone bay. Give this ship -something- to cope with the amputation of its mojo - even 500m3 drone bay would suffice. trolling removed - Sherkaner
Meridius	Posted - 2005.05.02 16:14:00 - [2] Just use an ArmageddonÖ Only ship we have left so use it till it gets nerfed. ________________________________________________________
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2005.05.02 16:16:00 - [3] Drone space please. Both the Sacrilege and the Zealot should have 1.000 m3. **** diversity, bring on balance. /Elve New Video out! Watch me!
Meridius	Posted - 2005.05.02 16:30:00 - [4] Edited by: Meridius on 02/05/2005 16:31:58 Originally by: Elve Sorrow Drone space please. Both the Sacrilege and the Zealot should have 1.000 m3. **** diversity, bring on balance. I disagree. I see Amarr ships as pure turret machines. It shouldn't have missles and it shouldn't have drones. It was given less turrets for a reason, this ship was created with 'overpowered' heavy pulse. Now they they are 'balanced'; it should get a 5th turret. Something needs to be done. Until then, Armageddon for the win It's ridiculous that non-amarr ships have more turrets in the first place. Minmatar, Gallente having more turrets as well as Caldari having the same amount throws RP out the door completely. As TomB put it a long time ago, amarr are the 'turret humpers' of eve. ________________________________________________________
F4ze	Posted - 2005.05.02 16:34:00 - [5] 10-33km range for HPL II is right where a short range laser SHOULD be. If you want range, fit beams.
LUKEC	Posted - 2005.05.02 16:35:00 - [6] Originally by: Elve Sorrow Drone space please. Both the Sacrilege and the Zealot should have 1.000 m3. ** diversity, bring on balance. Then Ishtar needs 5k m3 basic & deimos like 2k m3... Amarr ships really suck with pulse nerf(they nerfed amarr, arma still works good enough)... but still you can hit with Heavy pulseII like 20km+falloff with standard ammo(it used to be UV, now it is standard, dunno if it is any good), so you get like 30km range with long range ammo. Now tell me what ship you cannot hit at 20km with heavy pulse. And zealot does more dmg than deimos, as there is no need to tank it all that much as deimos(deimos can put like 3dmg mods max as you need to have 1x hardener, 1x aru, 1x pduII if you want to fit ionsII). Zealot with 5x dmg mods does more dmg than deimos. And you can any inty messing around etc. Oh and some more details: zealot can use AB in combat, flying like 400m/s with 125m sig. Deimos is slow *** with biggest HAC sig... and can only approach like huge moon(800m sig minimum.). And just a little nagging detail: zealot hits deimos on 1000m orbit, 500m orbit with cruiser means that you will have speed like 0m/s most of the time. The ships that are most nerfed are probably malediction & apoc(npc setups, tach sniper is ok). Retribution actually can fit t2 medium beams with webby and tank on low. HACs are ok. Every has its uses, even t2 caracal bastard - It is best t2 npc ship(and that's what 50% of eve population does most of the time(and another 35% are mining)).
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2005.05.02 16:41:00 - [7] So because Zealot with 5 damage mods does more damage than Deimos with none, it should be left alone? Love your logic.
theRaptor	Posted - 2005.05.02 16:42:00 - [8] Originally by: Meridius Edited by: Meridius on 02/05/2005 16:31:58 Originally by: Elve Sorrow Drone space please. Both the Sacrilege and the Zealot should have 1.000 m3. **** diversity, bring on balance. I disagree. I see Amarr ships as pure turret machines. It shouldn't have missles and it shouldn't have drones. It was given less turrets for a reason, this ship was created with 'overpowered' heavy pulse. Now they they are 'balanced'; it should get a 5th turret. Something needs to be done. Until then, Armageddon for the win It's ridiculous that non-amarr ships have more turrets in the first place. Minmatar, Gallente having more turrets as well as Caldari having the same amount throws RP out the door completely. As TomB put it a long time ago, amarr are the 'turret humpers' of eve. 100% Agree (And I dont even fly Zealots). I still weep for my heavy pulse --------------------------------------------------
Hellek	Posted - 2005.05.02 16:43:00 - [9] a grid and cpu upgrade, so that it has no difficulties fitting 4 heavy beam II would be another possibility to boost it a bit / give it more versatility.
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2005.05.02 16:46:00 - [10] Quote: 10-33km range for HPL II is right where a short range laser SHOULD be. If you want range, fit beams. Ummmm. 10-33km range for HPL II is the range it gets with the Zealot's 40% optimal range bonus for HAC L4 skill. Without said bonus the max range should be around 24km for radio, and around 7km for MF. Tell me there isn't something wrong, please.

Waagaa Ktlehr	Posted - 2005.05.02 16:47:00 - [11] Yup, operational range with MF within 10k means webbing range, means you're better off fitting blasters on a blasterboat anyway. This thing is useless 'cept for a sniping-ish setup, but then again with the back tracking and stuff it's almost better to just use a geddon with megapulses. ------------------------------------------ I am a love machine, feeding my fantasy, give me a kiss or three, have fun!
Kaeten	Posted - 2005.05.02 16:53:00 - [12] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Everyone with two brain cells to rub together knows the Zealot was built around the heavy pulse laser - a gun that used to rock, but now no longer qualifies. It was created as a miniature gankageddon, fully expected to be equipped with four HPLs, a ton of heatsinks, and used as a gank platform. That's why it has one less turret than Deimos, that's why it has no drones whatsoever. But hey, here comes the pulse laser nerf. Suddenly, HPLs with multifrequency have barely over blaster range, but no comforting fifth turret slot or 1000m3 drone bay. Give this ship -something- to cope with the amputation of its mojo - even 500m3 drone bay would suffice. oo plz, what range do blasters have compared to pulses? ___________________________________ Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante
F4ze	Posted - 2005.05.02 16:58:00 - [13] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Quote: 10-33km range for HPL II is right where a short range laser SHOULD be. If you want range, fit beams. Ummmm. 10-33km range for HPL II is the range it gets with the Zealot's 40% optimal range bonus for HAC L4 skill. Without said bonus the max range should be around 24km for radio, and around 7km for MF. Tell me there isn't something wrong, please. I fought HAC vs HAC with Nilkarus in his Sacriledge using HPL II's and I used electron blaster II's. If he webs me @10km there is no way I can get in blaster range before I die, even if I have him webbed too. Throw me another one of your arguments please.
Meridius	Posted - 2005.05.02 17:07:00 - [14] Edited by: Meridius on 02/05/2005 17:07:32 Originally by: Kaeten oo plz, what range do blasters have compared to pulses? oo plz, what damage to blasters do compared to pulses and you have an extra turret + 1000m3 of drones + around 550 more overall HP + an mwd bonus so you can use mwd plus tank + better armour resist bonus's ect ect. Originally by: F4ze 10-33km range for HPL II is right where a short range laser SHOULD be. If you want range, fit beams. Yes use beams and lose your 70m ship to an interceptor. Yes seriously, you won't be able to hit an inty period without a web and even that isn't 100% effective. If you use rails on a Deimos you have drones, if you use rails on an Eagle you missles, if you use howitzers on a Muninn you have drones + missles. A Zealot's core defense is it's turrets, it has nothing beyond that. Interceptors being as common as they are, if you do not have a setup that can properly deal with them, you will die. Sadly, it's far easier to just use a Armageddon. ________________________________________________________
F4ze	Posted - 2005.05.02 17:13:00 - [15] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu snip You were the first one to point at the HPL range without the zealot's bonuses, so I used the example with the sacriledge. Second of all, you didn't have all the information from that fight, I was in an Ishtar. We were both using an AB and both had a 90% webifier. A 500m¦ drone bay for the Zealot could be an option, but your main point imo was that the HPL is worthless since the nerf. And I am trying to show you that it isn't.
Meridius	Posted - 2005.05.02 17:14:00 - [16] Originally by: F4ze I fought HAC vs HAC with Nilkarus in his Sacriledge using HPL II's and I used electron blaster II's. If he webs me @10km there is no way I can get in blaster range before I die, even if I have him webbed too. Throw me another one of your arguments please. Wait, did you get killed by a Sacrilege on the field? No you didn't, you got beaten by the ultimate tank cruiser in a controlled situation with a corp mate. That ship is near useless when it comes to pvp because it does less damage then a ***** Taranis. Oh but it can tank great, oh joy to the ***** world... The only reason it's gets any waves as being good is because of naive people getting impressed by the fact that it tanks so well. I bet if it had 1 turret point people would still sing love stories about it based souly on it's tanking ability. It's sad really. ________________________________________________________
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2005.05.02 17:20:00 - [17] Ok, fine, I'll let you have that one. Heavy Pulse Lasers do, in fact, inflict damage. Now that we've gotten past that, let's look at the facts: The Zealot - Has HPLs. - Has HBLs. The Deimos - Has weapons which are just as good if not better than HPLs. - Has 20% more of said weapons. - Has weapons which are just as good as HBLs. - Has 20% more of those weapons. - Has 1000m3 drone bay on top of that. Now do you see what I'm getting at? I don't want the Zealot's HPLs to once again hit out to 45km, I just want it to compete with the Deimos, bloody handed war god of HACs. You simply can't argue that the Zealot wasn't built around HPLs, and with their nerfing, it finds itself drastically weakened. Zealot getting 500m3 drone bay won't render Deimos obsolete. It won't render anything obsolete, it just won't suck as much as it does now - hence my amazement that some people would stand there and oppose this.
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2005.05.02 17:23:00 - [18] I was going to write something constructive but FireFox didnt agree and i cant be assed doing it. From both an RP perspective and just the coolness factor, i would agree with you Meridius. Hell, i would give it 6 turrets, like the Maller should've had all along anyway. Different argument. However, from a balance perspective, drones would be better as it gives you an option to deal with frigates. Beams cant do that, pulse need a web to land a hit once in a blue moon. /Elve New Video out! Watch me!
Icomeinpeace	Posted - 2005.05.02 17:39:00 - [19] Even worse than the zealot is the crusader, which got hit much harder as now having an optimal in webby range with tech II pulse.
DARKKK	Posted - 2005.05.02 17:40:00 - [20] war good of HACs is maybe ishtar, deimos certainly is not. Wanna meet geddon at 15km? i doubt. Wanna meet inty at 20km? i doubt. Those light drones are just a joke. And if you don't like that, go fly geddon.

Blind Fear	Posted - 2005.05.02 18:03:00 - [21] Originally by: DAR*** war good of HACs is maybe ishtar, deimos certainly is not. Wanna meet geddon at 15km? i doubt. Wanna meet inty at 20km? i doubt. Those light drones are just a joke. And if you don't like that, go fly geddon. Am i the only one who is lost by this post? I also believe that the zealot should get either drones or another turret hardpoint since the laser nerf renerds this ship almost usless
Selim	Posted - 2005.05.02 18:37:00 - [22] The deimos and ishtar could do with a nerf, especially the ishtar. Zealot doesnt need a boost, though. It still has its niche, a niche it performs quite well.
Parallax Error	Posted - 2005.05.02 18:41:00 - [23] Edited by: Parallax Error on 02/05/2005 18:40:53 Originally by: Selim The deimos and ishtar could do with a nerf, especially the ishtar. Zealot doesnt need a boost, though. It still has its niche, a niche it performs quite well. Oh I don't know about that, maybe bring all the other HAC's upto par with the Ishtar and Deimos?
Selim	Posted - 2005.05.02 18:48:00 - [24] Sounds good to me, but do you really think the devs would do it right? They'd end up doing something like boosting the cerberus too much, the eagle not enough, the sacrilege wouldn't change, the vagabond would get nerfed 'accidentally', and the muninn would be impossibly uber. Giving them only two ships to work with gives them less room for error. And to be honest, HAC's should not be silly like the gallente ones. I'd say the amarr ones are a rough marker of where HAC's should be at in terms of offense vs speed vs defense vs fitting. Overall, all the HAC's need a boost, as well as cruisers, in the agility department, of course.
Sabine Borgia	Posted - 2005.05.02 18:52:00 - [25] i tried out alot of setups but in that point i disagree with meridus the zealot is atm way lesser usefull then the sacri the sacri still can tank goodly but what can the zealot still do??i can still gank yeah but not alone anymore and it lost also a bit of his power in my eyes amaar cruiser always where udnerpowered yeah for sure bit more ammo bit more resis but always lacked in drones and also in turret slots most tier 3 cruiser can fit 5-6 wepons the maller can do 4 why that? cause the goodlike non existing drone bay?? and then the less wepons we got left on that ship now got lesser range lesser dmg and still need to much grid for that .. to fit a sacri or zealot with tech II beams means also needing way more grid.. they really need love
Sangxianc	Posted - 2005.05.02 18:53:00 - [26] Not meaning to sidetrack the thread, but why does the Ishtar need a nerf? - Any man's death diminishes me, as I am involved in mankinde; And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee.
Kaeten	Posted - 2005.05.02 18:58:00 - [27] Originally by: Blind Fear Originally by: DAR*** war good of HACs is maybe ishtar, deimos certainly is not. Wanna meet geddon at 15km? i doubt. Wanna meet inty at 20km? i doubt. Those light drones are just a joke. And if you don't like that, go fly geddon. Am i the only one who is lost by this post? I also believe that the zealot should get either drones or another turret hardpoint since the laser nerf renerds this ship almost usless go train up gallante and see how blasters preform agisnt pulses. another pulse nerf whiner, how do oyu thin kwe felt when your pulses where ownining the battlefield, they ain't nerfed jsut BALANCED. If you want to be leet and uber go cheat in another game. ___________________________________ Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante
Azmodaus	Posted - 2005.05.02 19:04:00 - [28] The zealot may need one more turret, other than that its fine. I'm sick of hearing about how pulses suck now....THEY DON'T!! Just because pulses don't kick arse over everything else anymore doesn't mean they suck. They are just a laser equivalent to blasters or autocannons which is what they were supposed to be in the first place. Load up the lows with heat sinks, get in close and shred them, just like the galenti have had to do with blasters from the beginning, problem solved.
Dionysus Davinci	Posted - 2005.05.02 19:14:00 - [29] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Everyone snip knows the Zealot was built around the heavy pulse laser - a gun that used to rock, but now no longer qualifies. It was created as a miniature gankageddon, fully expected to be equipped with four HPLs, a ton of heatsinks, and used as a gank platform. That's why it has one less turret than Deimos, that's why it has no drones whatsoever. Everyone snip knows that Gallente are the kings of up close and personal warefare by design. Also, blasters require you to be up close and peeking into your targets windows to looking for that girl that doesn't believe in blinds. Pulse lasers do not. They hit pretty hard and fire faster and because of their ability to go mostly emp and switch emp can erase an armor tanks shields while it will still be working on yours and hence having to work its tank sooner. In other words, stop trying to make a deimos Part Duex and just because you feel it should it be fitted with nothing but heatsinks because at one time it guarrented you an easy gank doesn't mean it will still work after a 'balance'. trolling removed - Sherkaner
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2005.05.02 19:22:00 - [30] So, bare with me here, you think it should not be fitted with Heatsinks? /Elve New Video out! Watch me!



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