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Allen Deckard	Posted - 2005.07.04 00:37:00 - [931] Am kinda disapointed with the change on test as from my own personal tests it seemed the torp was still the only key that fit the slot per say. Fit torps still get the best damage of any type against all rats that I found. Still no reason to use cruise missles as from what I found they were fairly ineffective as compared to torps. The cruise might be ok though for pvp but duno didn't get to test any of that.
Kelcen	Posted - 2005.07.04 10:46:00 - [932] missile nerf will just make missions take longer to finish. and this is the only point which is really not necesary.
Tortoise	Posted - 2005.07.04 12:28:00 - [933] I have now finished testing my Raven on the test server with a number of options, smart bom: has not got the range even with a Weber fitted a guardian veteran will orbit out of range and pick you off. Using rockets as recommended as the main defence against frigates a guardian veteran can virtually tank a rocket attack. Using missiles will work but the damage done even with high skill level is so pitiful and costly if has become unviable. I am now at a point where I have exhausted what I see as options for defence against frigates failing to find a suitable option for my Raven. In desperation, I have now dusted off my old Dom. and set it up with drones and cruiser rails.
Rawthorm	Posted - 2005.07.04 13:39:00 - [934] Edited by: Rawthorm on 04/07/2005 13:39:22 I took my Navy Issue Raven on the test server (with full Navy loadout) to see how things stack up and with the high damage setup a Player Controled Cruiser was able to tank me at range indefinatly. I'm sorry but can you point me to a single turret ship that would find itself in that position? The values MUST have a low end cap or a formula more in line with turrets (maybe based on transveral rather than velocity?) because atm the formula for missile damage has no baring on the skill of the pilot you are facing, where as turrets your success or failure is largely dependant on how smart the enemy pilot is and how he fights you. (Bottom line is if the cream of the missile boat crop cant take down a cruiser then its broken and needs fixing.)
keepiru	Posted - 2005.07.04 14:08:00 - [935] Just took a carcal to shoot at a stiletto, with all the skills (including caldari cruiser & light/heavy missiles) @ 3 end result. Heavy: 6.3 Light: 6.4 Painters: No difference. Painters currently have no effect on MWD'ing targets on SISI. [reported] Interestingly he had to set his speed to TQ value manually because the speed boost maths are currently broken on SISI. [also reported] -------------
zaltock	Posted - 2005.07.04 23:01:00 - [936] sorry for being lazy cant read the whole thread but i wanna see smart launchers or missiles that you can adjust payloads right click so you get option for slow and powerful [bs] or fast and lower damage [inty or frigs] my biggest concern is ive tried all lev 4 missions using the 4 races bs and guns vers drones and most missions if i cant use torps and missiles i cant do it lol well its patch day tomorow lets see how it goes
Dark Big	Posted - 2005.07.05 02:52:00 - [937] Edited by: Dark Big on 05/07/2005 02:52:55 Originally by: keepiru Just took a carcal to shoot at a stiletto, with all the skills (including caldari cruiser & light/heavy missiles) @ 3 end result. Heavy: 6.3 Light: 6.4 Painters: No difference. Painters currently have no effect on MWD'ing targets on SISI. [reported] Interestingly he had to set his speed to TQ value manually because the speed boost maths are currently broken on SISI. [also reported] then why are thay releasing the patch then. if it is buged shouldent it be delayed?
Octavios	Posted - 2005.07.05 05:03:00 - [938] i do not read good things!!!! I'm a Caldari Specializd Pilot, and after the patch all my ships will be rendered obsolete. From what i read i'll be doing like 20 damage on a frigate with a Torpedo!!!!!!!! That is just not a acceptable to me. First of all torpedo's take alot of place in the cargohold, and that means after every 750k spawn with 5 frigates or cruisers i will have to go back and reload my Raven? Second, idk about you but turret battle ships rip up frigates with one or two volleys ( which are like 5 sec intervals), trust me i've lost one too many kestrels that way, inagine if 3 ceptors engage me raven in PVP (i prefer them outrunning my torps) Than i gota use a target painter? On a shiled tanking race?? that means less cap, and i dont get enough anyways, ets hope, those new shield changes compensate somehow I think 2-2.5 torp volleys should destroy any frigate class (exept maybe for ceptors). and i like the idea of spash damage better but torps destroying each ther is not good, maybe a fix for that? lol too late for changes anyway, i hope CCP increases base torp/crise damage on frigaes to something like 50, and go about 70 average with some skills, that ought to take a volley and a half to knock down a 5k rat lol ...... just my 2 cents
Vilserx	Posted - 2005.07.05 21:52:00 - [939] It seems Heavy and Light Missiles are kinda broken. They're doing very small amounts of damage to Cruisers and Frigates when they're supposed to be the missile weapon to take those types of ships out. I'm doing more damage using Cruise Missiles than the above missile types. I think at the moment, the explosion radius and velocity penalties are exactly the same for each missile - it's just the value in which it takes effect varies. Which means that, as soon as an enemy breaks one of the barriers, even a Light Missile (on a frigate) does very little damage. If it's not like this...please explain why light/heavy missiles seem to do so little damage. Skills shouldn't be an issue here - Gunnery users can hit frigates with frigate guns and cruisers with cruiser guns for decent enough damage/accuracy much skills. --------------------------- VSX EVE Design
Ristonhawk	Posted - 2005.07.05 22:44:00 - [940] How about some FoF Torps???
Kyoko Sakoda	Posted - 2005.07.05 22:54:00 - [941] I just made a post in which I was describing the behavior of gunnery specialists towards missile users. In the post I was describing how a couple people I've run across, who will go unnamed, have been harassing missile users (including myself) in channels, on forums, and the like. It's been unsportsmanlike and totally out of line. I didn't know where else to put it, so I put it in this thread. I did this because I wanted to make the issue known to the public, otherwise I would have just filed a petition. My post was deleted in less than 30 seconds (which probably couldn't have been enough time to read the entire post) Now, if the moderators wish to keep the post out of this thread, they may go ahead and delete it, because I understand we're talking about foul play more than the recent changes here. However, if it is deleted, I hope to be contacted by a member of ISD on the issue. Thank you
Kickass	Posted - 2005.07.06 00:31:00 - [942] In Eve right now... Torpedoes have misteryosly went from 562.5 damage to 520.3? 450x25%=562.5, why is the damage output being nerfed? Torpedoes run away from fast frigates/ceptors, this is players not NPC's. Torpedoes hit frigates/ceptors for .2-11.5 damage, please explain to me which large gun hits for 11.5 damage? Cruise missles speed and tracking seems to be good, but that is about it. Damage is obsurd, a pod can take several volleys of cruise missles before having to warp out. If you want us to NOT use missles then please just let us put our skill points into something else, and get rid of missles all together.
TaoFade Mero	Posted - 2005.07.06 04:27:00 - [943] Originally by: Kickass In Eve right now... Torpedoes have misteryosly went from 562.5 damage to 520.3? 450x25%=562.5, why is the damage output being nerfed? Torpedoes run away from fast frigates/ceptors, this is players not NPC's. Torpedoes hit frigates/ceptors for .2-11.5 damage, please explain to me which large gun hits for 11.5 damage? Cruise missles speed and tracking seems to be good, but that is about it. Damage is obsurd, a pod can take several volleys of cruise missles before having to warp out. If you want us to NOT use missles then please just let us put our skill points into something else, and get rid of missles all together. Amen Brother.
Morbeus	Posted - 2005.07.06 05:14:00 - [944] Edited by: Morbeus on 06/07/2005 05:14:23 Ok so you "Balance" missile so they can barely be used, THEN you increase the powergrid needed to use one of the launchers in the first place?? This results in my setup not having enough powergrid so I have to switch my Power Diagnostic System for a Reactor control System and for what? A USELESS MODULE Captain of the Firemist Morbeus
Kiwimagic	Posted - 2005.07.06 05:53:00 - [945] Edited by: Kiwimagic on 06/07/2005 05:54:42 Are you guys crazy!! You haven't balanced the missile at all, you've stuffed them completely, I was expecting the worst but what you have delivered is far worse than i even expected. I think you are suffering from the jovian brain disease. I'd like a response i'd also like to know exactly what turrets missiles are balanced to and what game are they in because its not eve. You had months of testing and this is what you come up with. The impact of the new skills on missiles, once trained is gonna make minimal difference. So now the range the fittings and the damage on missiles is really really crap and the added speed well its pointless because you can't hit anything at any range because they won't get there. Try doing your maths again maybe you forgot to move a decimal point or something, until then i'll be looking for a new game
Hakera	Posted - 2005.07.06 06:03:00 - [946] Originally by: Kiwimagic The impact of the new skills on missiles, once trained is gonna make minimal difference. lol - someone's not doing their homework Dumbledore - Eve-I.com
Dark Caress	Posted - 2005.07.06 06:07:00 - [947] Ok i understand that missles need a change, however what they have become is absurd. balance vs turrets, are you balancing launchers to SMALL turrets? i mean if a frigate is sitting still a turret regardless of size hits for full damage, however if a torpedo hits an immobile frigate they take about 6% of the damage that a torpedo can deal. The Powergrid Changes are as hard if not harder on non caldari ship pilots as they are to caldari. The 'Stealth' Nerf of removing the highway gates is ridiculous, Why even have agents when you guys apparently support the pirates more than the agent running player. Now in order to get to youre agents, you have to fly thru low sec space to get there. Being a non Raven pilot, this is my 2 isk on the patch. The OVER nerf of the missles and launchers is INSANE.
Kiwimagic	Posted - 2005.07.06 06:13:00 - [948] Originally by: Hakera Originally by: Kiwimagic lol - someone's not doing their homework 2% damage per level of warhead upgrade so at lvl 5 that makes 10% and 10% of bugger all is still bugger all. Projectiles will be next.
TaoFade Mero	Posted - 2005.07.06 06:47:00 - [949] Don't you guys know yet? They don't want us to use missles or guns in this game. They want us to use the self destruct option and blow up our ships in an attempt to waste each other. They'd rather have us mine all day long then build more ships to self destruct again. I'll suggest again. Readjusting the %'s sound sound and adding an anti-missle component such as FLAK ammo to confuse missles or break a lock is a much better idea.
Hakera	Posted - 2005.07.06 06:53:00 - [950] Edited by: Hakera on 06/07/2005 06:53:02 Originally by: Kiwimagic Originally by: Hakera lol - someone's not doing their homework 2% damage per level of warhead upgrade so at lvl 5 that makes 10% and 10% of bugger all is still bugger all. If you really were a missle specilist and had done some homework you would know: Warhead Upgrades & Rapid Launch - directly affect your straight dps when fully trained giving a bonus of 10% and 15% respectivelly Missile Specialisation skills such as heavy missile specialisation give another 2% dmg per lvl as well as let you use T2 launchers Not to mention Target Navigation prediction & Guided Missile Precision which increase the dmg caused to smaller targets below the normal explosion radius. So lets take your raven equipped with Arbalest seige (soon to be T2 which appear to have a dmg bonus) Rof 19.2 * 0.75 (caldari bs 5) = 14.4 * 0.88 (Rapid launch 4) = 12.67 base Dmg = 450 * 1.25 (Torpedo V) * 1.08 (Warhead Upgrades 4) * 1.08 (Torpedo Spec 4) = 656.1 hp. 656.16/12.67 = 310.7dps Torpedo base sig radius = 400m, BS base sig radius = 400m, with a torpedo explosion velocity of 250m/s (you want your target to be larger and slower than those two figures) Missile Bombardment & Missile Projection Skills increase the range and speed of your missiles to the point where your good up to 100k with torpedos. Re: npc's or smaller targets, Target Navigation prediction & Guided Missile Precision decrease the missiles base sig radius and increase its explosion velocity making you more effective vs smaller targets such that vs npc's you should be looking at 4seige and 2cruiser imo. Just to compare that base dps to 'pre nerf': using torpedos is a boost for them, its just a matter of using them against the right targets and having the extra skills trained your getting an extra 16% + dps. The TNP & GMP skills will make cruise effective vs cruisers and tops to a lesser degree Against a turret bs your dps has been increased once you have those skills trained. What you have to watch for now however is ships using mwd/ab as the speed factor is weighted more over the sig radius factor in my experience. All in all - wait till you got the new skills tbh (and yes I fly raven, who doesnt, it 'used' to take sweet fa skills to fly one) Dumbledore - Eve-I.com*
TaoFade Mero	Posted - 2005.07.06 07:11:00 - [951] Specific missles for specific ships is a farce. If a torp hits a frig or a BS it doesn't differentiate as long as it get to discharge it's payload. I'll agree with making it harder to hit frigs with torps but if an npc or player gets hit by one there should be no difference. Explosions do not choose who to blow up, they blow up everything. Also, as you stated, just placing an AB2 or MWD on even a BS changes the whole format dramatically. From what I understand, from playing the game and reading the posts here, unless a frig is the topic AB's and MWD's really don't hinder turret based fighting as badly as it does for missles at this moment. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't remember this many complaints or problems when the advanced turret skills were put in place. Anybody?
Hakera	Posted - 2005.07.06 07:13:00 - [952] Originally by: TaoFade Mero Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't remember this many complaints or problems when the advanced turret skills were put in place. Anybody? you ever tried hitting a frig with a bs turret? One would think that if a 1400mm shell directly hit a frigate it would vaporise it. Welcome to the turret users world tbh :) Dumbledore - Eve-I.com
TaoFade Mero	Posted - 2005.07.06 07:18:00 - [953] Yes, that's why I excluded frigates from the topic. They're too fast to hit, that's why I'd be ok if they made it hard for frigs to be hit by torpedoes. And I have had frigs vaporize with one shot, hence the reason why I want frigs to vaporize from time to time if a torp happens to hit one. Also, another topic, if torps and missles are doing the same damage or less compared to turret ammo, can we expect a balanced price decrease in torp/missle cost since they deal the same damage now?
Khaldun	Posted - 2005.07.06 08:17:00 - [954] So I pick up a level two agent mission to test out the new missiles. First off, I can't fit four standard missiles on my missile-boat-Kessie anymore, and using rockets with a range of 4.5km (2.25km/s speed, 2sec flight time?!) would be suicide just to deal 25 damage. So instead I grumble and make do with two standard missiles and one rocket launcher with Defenders. The first enemy I come across is a missle-drone. I set my orbit distance to 18km (7km shorter than pre-patch, forcing me into a range where Defenders are useless, see below) and get down to spamming some missiles. They do very little damage, whilst his missiles are taking chunks out of my shields and consistantly hitting, despite me spitting out defenders. I'm not entirely sure what was wrong there, but he was beating me and several times I had to warp-out. Defenders.. they don't seem to work with these high missile speeds. Either the module doesn't have time to activate before the rocket hits or they just don't hit enemy missiles. I have had no problems with them pre-patch, now it seems that they're broken completely at short range. I don't think EVE works well with this faster pace of things. It doesn't work when the missile has hit me before my Defenders have activated, or when I can't see the missile animation hitting me because it's moving so fast. All of these missile changes are just nerf upon nerf to my short ranged Kestrel.
TaoFade Mero	Posted - 2005.07.06 08:22:00 - [955] Someone has a powertrip problem and they know who they are. How are all these post not violating rule 5 but mine are? (talking to myself no one else in general) Must be I have some good ideas that might actually generate constructive talk on the subject at hand. Ideas: 1) Flak ammo to disrupt target locks and fof tracking 2) Different formula for proximity explosions and direct contact explosions. 3) Adjusted price for missles to a fair market price. 4) % chance encounter for better damage from bigger ammo against frigs. (comparable to turret chance %)
Crazy Smith	Posted - 2005.07.06 09:29:00 - [956] I tried my caracal on smugler right after the patch with one new missile skill rapid launch at level 1. all that happened that my heavy missiles were flying really fast and making lots of noise. I didn't do a single point of damage. I launched 10 heavy scourges and 10 hydras... luckily i had 2 acolytes and 1 warrior that killed the smuggler with ease.
Sherkaner	Posted - 2005.07.06 10:36:00 - [957] Now that the missile patch has arrived on TQ, the moderation rules for this thread will be relaxed. Of course, all the normal forum rules still apply, but we won't remove posts anymore that are slightly offtopic or not directly related to TomB's first post. Thanks to everyone who participated in this thread so far with constructive criticism forum rules \| [email protected]
Gunship	Posted - 2005.07.17 22:22:00 - [958] CONGRATULATIONS TOMB, YOU HAVE MANAGED TO MAKE THE RAVEN COMPLETELY USELESS BOTH FOR NPC AND PVP!! OHH AND WHILE IM AT IT, THE STEALTH BOMBERS ARE EVEN WORSE NOW !!! GOOD NEWS ALL ROUND !!!
ELECTR0FREAK	Posted - 2005.07.18 02:26:00 - [959] Originally by: Gunship CONGRATULATIONS TOMB, YOU HAVE MANAGED TO MAKE THE RAVEN COMPLETELY USELESS BOTH FOR NPC AND PVP!! OHH AND WHILE IM AT IT, THE STEALTH BOMBERS ARE EVEN WORSE NOW !!! GOOD NEWS ALL ROUND !!! Anyone want to make bets that the above post will dissapear? Nice job buddy. Yelling at the Devs wont accomplish anything. Come back with a nice post, NOT all in caps, stating some data and your reasoning in a mature fashion, and MAYBE it will be worth TomB's time. Until then, you're making life harder for those of us who are actually trying to achieve a change through more constructive means.
Gaskin Ravenwing	Posted - 2005.07.18 03:12:00 - [960] Edited by: Gaskin Ravenwing on 18/07/2005 03:35:18 First things first i apologise for being a whiney runt in advance A few (genuine?) greivances with the new system and hopefully some constructive criticism 1. you just made my level 5 missile operation equivalent to itself at level 2 (thats 5% x 5 = 25% compared to 2% x 5 = 10%) is it just me or is everyone else asking for their skill points back sure ml5 is needed for torps but considering i wont be using torps anymore i would much rather have level 5 of either guided missile prediction or target navigation compensation so i can actually do level 3 missions again. (yes i know about the rapid launch skill but i still feel i have wasted time on a l5 skill i wouldnt have bothered with nowadays) 2. Removing the capability to fire cruise missiles from siege launchers now, now of all times. Now caldari bs have 2 settings, anti-bs or anti everything else... isnt the decreased rof on siege launchers a bad enough disadvantage? i know guns are similar but they can hit frigs, granted rarely but they can hit them, with torps youd have to sit up all night to see any damage done. also why is there no hybrid bs for the caldari? it would be nice if i could switch to guns but when all my bonuses are in missiles and ew and i have bs4 what sane person would? 3. next time ccp decide to decimate a certain weapon type and add new skills to compensate having those skills on the market before putting the patch in place would be nice, i didnt spend sp on missiles before because i couldnt, to bust me down to noob state all of a sudden was a real kick in the knackers for me, if you gave me the skills a few months ago i would have them at 4 by now and wouldnt have minded missing out on trade skills. as to realism arguments (which are obviously irrelevant to eve) 4. this one is not really a reasonable criticism but for those thinking it i would just like to point out that this is in no way realistic to missile combat, small ships hit by large explosions would be torn to pieces, not suffer less than larger ones, when a 1 km explosion (radius 500m) hit a similar size ship i wouldnt bet on the pilot surviving, also missiles that fly after someone then explode close by allowing them to get away isnt at all reasonable (conceptually) even in the modern day missiles bury themselves in their target usually exploding outwards from the inside, unsurprisingly it helps do more damage. I think the new missile rules are more balanced and will be interested to see if my criticism subsides when i am engaging at 200km with my new ubergimped skills. my main complaint has got to be point 3 in the list though. its really not fair that i have to sit in the hanger for the next 2 weeks training skills to be balanced with the people who've had theirs for years. any chance i could trade in those gunnery skills i've had time to train now that missiles finally have their equivalent? sorry again for the whining and any repetition i may have made from earlier posts but i must say these things have agitated me Edit: eureka, i have an idea... how about a new missile type designed to kill frigates, call them sticky missiles, based on cruise (ie fits in cruise launcher) negates or reduces the negative for velocity regarding explosion escape, travel slower than normal cruises, less range (or even a minimum range), far less damage, seperate skill and we'd need to carry them seperately and reload to use them, i know lrge guns dont get the same but considering they can fly to rnge to negate the effects of radial velocity and missile users cant i think its reasonable

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