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Jason13 Anzomi
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2012.12.06 06:10:00 -
[31] - Quote
Before the new release I read the upcoming change list. One of the items I saw was the upcoming changes to NPC agro regarding switching of targets. Since I primarily use drone boats I realized what this would mean and immediately switched my skill training to dedicate towards skilling for a T3 cruiser combined with weapons instead of drones. At the moment I'm still short on both sets of skills so I picked up a T2 Assault Frigate and am using that to train my playstyle to fit the upcoming T3 cruiser once the skills are trained.
In the past I used drone platform ships that were tuned with ship bonuses to handle drones. Now I've sold those ships along with the drones, receiving a small percentage of the original cost for the ships and gear - since nobody seems to want drones now. And I've gone from running L3 and L4 missions to running L2 missions in my AF gun boat.
The long and the short of it? The changes made by CCP resulted in a nearly unplayable game due to breaking the drone boat gameplay that bonuses and gear fostered. One small change resulted in a nearly unplayable result. A very simple statement that any drone boat pilot that runs missions will undoubtedly agree with.
Yes, there are ways to deal with it and continue using drones. Drop sentry drones, stay close enough to insta-scoop them the moment you see any of them get damaged and do NOT move away from them. Or launch combat drones set to Passive, only use them to attack targets within a couple of km of your boat and be ready to instantly pull them in the moment you see any damage to any drone. Is this a feasible usage of drone boats? Obviously it is a way to cope with an impossible situation and not a way to actually utilize the drone platforms that the game is designed to foster.
So, I adapt. I'm training skills (both game skills and playstyle skills) for an entirely different type of play. I've written off the time spent skilling up T2 drones (small, medium and large). And I'm seriously having doubts about continuing to play Eve when the developers are willing to make such radical gameplay changes. (And no, you cannot "haz my stuff").
Are CCP designers free to make any change they want? Certainly they are. Whether it's a change to ship spinning and inflated prices for monacles, or whether it's changes to make drone boats dysfunctional. It is the right of CCP to make any change they wish for any reason they choose. However I will also point out that making players write off massive drone training skill training investments and require other skill training prior to continuing to play - may result in changes to the subscription base, the same as when the monacle ship spinning changes resulted in a public apology to the customer base.
CCP, please rethink your ideas and find better ways to vet your ideas prior to testing them on the paying customer base. The economy is tight, companies are hurting for revenue and your decisions are sometimes not the wisest. |
Eli Green
The Arrow Project
91
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Posted - 2012.12.06 06:15:00 -
[32] - Quote
Jason13 Anzomi wrote: find better ways to vet your ideas
Numerous mass tests and dev blogs not good enough for ya? wumbo |
Jason13 Anzomi
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2012.12.06 06:21:00 -
[33] - Quote
Eli Green wrote:Jason13 Anzomi wrote: find better ways to vet your ideas
Numerous mass tests and dev blogs not good enough for ya?
There was quite a lot (30+ pages?) of customer feedback on the test server showing how disliked the idea was. Yet CCP did not allow this to influence their choice.
They need a better way to vet their ideas. Currently they make choices and ignore customer feedback until their revenues start going into the toilet. Then they issue a public apology and make changes. My plea is for them to find a better way than dealing with mistake afterwards! My plea is for them to figure out how to discover it's a mistake PRIOR to making it onto the live servers.
Read what people post - don't try to make up ways to try to make them look foolish. The goal here is to address a problem with the game, not to look for ways to act childish. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
942
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Posted - 2012.12.06 06:31:00 -
[34] - Quote
Jason13 Anzomi wrote:Eli Green wrote:Jason13 Anzomi wrote: find better ways to vet your ideas
Numerous mass tests and dev blogs not good enough for ya? There was quite a lot (30+ pages?) of customer feedback on the test server showing how disliked the idea was. Yet CCP did not allow this to influence their choice. They need a better way to vet their ideas. Currently they make choices and ignore customer feedback until their revenues start going into the toilet. Then they issue a public apology and make changes. My plea is for them to find a better way than dealing with mistake afterwards! My plea is for them to figure out how to discover it's a mistake PRIOR to making it onto the live servers. Read what people post - don't try to make up ways to try to make them look foolish. The goal here is to address a problem with the game, not to look for ways to act childish. I think the primary problem lies in peoples perceptions
Yes L4's used to be really easy, now they are more in line with other things of a similar income level, yes they are still easier for those using expendable ammo and conscious decisions on how to attack.
The largest problem is for people to adapt to change.
And no L4s are nothing like sleeper sites they are still easier for the cash you get. C2's can be done in a BC really easily but when you get into the money making stuff like C4s, you are dividing the cash by 3 as you need at least 3 RR Tengus and then C5-C6 where you need a massive array of logistics, battleships, dread and carriers.
Oh and you can wake up one morning and find you home is only 30 hours from complete destruction. So no L4s are probably still a better risk vs reward than sleeper sites, you just need to think differently or do L3s Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
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Acac Sunflyier
Burning Star L.L.C.
269
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Posted - 2012.12.06 07:12:00 -
[35] - Quote
The fact of the matter is drones went from really bad to completely useless. Drone management is bad (lol carriers?), drone usage is bad, drone performance is bad, drone stats are bad, they've been nerfed (while it was bad server side before loosing a drone since the change the interfacing means more), etc. They only had 2 real viable uses:
1) Structure bashing- Having a lot of drones on pos guns, caps, and super caps did help the killing go faster. (Note only sentries worked on bashing the actual pos with the shields up)
2) PVE- The ai (except in wormholes and sometimes incursions) would generally ignore the drone making them an effective long term applied damage on a target, assuming the target was around for a while and the drone managed to get all the way over there.
Now, the drones are only good at bashing. C.C.P. has said that they're not against drones. That they want to fix drones. But their actions speak otherwise. Whatever happened to that drone thing that would go on your f2 button? Why does CCP never mention a fix for drones except one time once in fan fest almost a year ago?
I think it's time CCP seriously considers the future of drones even if they remove them all together and ships adjusted to compensate. Too long have drones gone ignored. There just isn't anything intresting on the front page of the GD anymore. Yawn! |
Acac Sunflyier
Burning Star L.L.C.
269
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Posted - 2012.12.06 07:14:00 -
[36] - Quote
Don't get me wrong, it's nice they added drone damage amplifier. But I mean, come on, token drake much? There just isn't anything intresting on the front page of the GD anymore. Yawn! |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
5380
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Posted - 2012.12.06 07:19:00 -
[37] - Quote
Jas Dor wrote:With the new AI drones are getting popped easily. There are several interrelated problems.
Missions are not W-Space.
Sleeper AI works OK in W-Space. Missions are not W-Space. Instead of a few sleeper missions can throw 30 or more low HP NPCs at the player. If missions were revamped to be a couple high HP NPCs, like sleepers, this would be less of a problem.
New AI is Alphaing drones.
Drones are getting instapopped soon after deployment. This includes sentry drones. Under the new AI everything from BC on down will go after sentries.
Missions are balanced for weak NPC EWAR and drones.
This is actually a number of interrelated problems. NPCs were originally designed to drop EWAR against the player. As a result they still use the old, un-nerfed, EWAR stats from several years ago. This is a particular problem with Damps and Tracking Disruptors. These are non-change based and can render a ship unable to fight. Further, tohe new AI has caused NPCs to orbit outside of weapons/lock range after EWARing. The normal counter to this, dropping drones, is now unavailable. The presence of a far greater number of EWAR capable ships in missions then in the equivalent W-Space encounters further exacerbates the problem.
Battleships canGÇÖt hit frigs.
Yeah most battleship fits canGÇÖt hit frigs when they get up close (or ever for missile setups). With the EWAR changes this makes the most useful setup for missioning a Tengu with the option to use FoF HMs. This change is directly affecting many newer PvPers who are training either Amarr or Minmater. These changes mean having to place additional SP into skills simply to carebear for isk to PvP with. Yeah, yeah, people should have good missile skills anyway. Not always the case, especially for people who are PvPing somewhere other than PC controlled 0.0.
Gallente Ships already had problems.
The Dominix was one the last few useful Gallente ships. Other Gallente ships also relied on drones for part of their PvE strategy. Now that drones have been nerfed for PvE Gallente have major problems on both the PvP and PvE front.
Where did you get the idea that sleeper sites dont have up to 30 rats? MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Zagdul
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
1145
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Posted - 2012.12.06 07:24:00 -
[38] - Quote
This thread is awesome.
"F" = Drones Attack "R" = Return To Drone Bay Dual Pane idea: Click!
CCP Please Implement |
dexington
Push button receive bacon
220
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Posted - 2012.12.06 07:35:00 -
[39] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Where did you get the idea that sleeper sites dont have up to 30 rats?
While i guess the drone mechanics are relevant to the carrier, i don't think it's possible to spawn 30 rats without warping in capitals, and i don't think it's possible except for C5 and 6 class wormholes. As i understand it using capitals to spawn additional sleepers are done i a controlled manner, you don't just spawn all at once. GÇ£The best way to keep something bad from happening is to see it ahead of time, and you can't see it if you refuse to face the possibility.GÇ¥ |
Akiyo Mayaki
Industrial Justice Corporation
20
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Posted - 2012.12.06 07:52:00 -
[40] - Quote
Yes, there are quite some issues with drones. They should revamp it slightly imo. Some good suggestions have been made in this thread. |
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Kiteo Hatto
Equanimity Order
319
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Posted - 2012.12.06 07:59:00 -
[41] - Quote
LOL@ sleeper runners telling mission runners to HTFU. You CAN'T compare sleeper sites with mission sites.
There are more ships in missions at the "start" unless you are obviously jumping into a sleeper site with caps......
Sleeper ai and sleeper sites were designed to go with each other, putting sleeper ai into missions that are OLD is just stupid.
Please please please sleeper runners go do a WC or Assault that doesn't involve blitzing or a tengu now and make a video of you surviving on warp in with your turret battleship and i will gladly eat my words. "That's okay it annoys me when people pile on new definitions to the word sandbox every time CCP does something they don't like." - Alara IonStorm GD is where 60% of threads make you dumber and 10% which provide you with entertainment, the remaining 30% is a mix of both. |
Ripperljohn
New Eden Renegades Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
46
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Posted - 2012.12.06 08:04:00 -
[42] - Quote
Kiteo Hatto wrote:Abloo-bloo
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1842
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Posted - 2012.12.06 08:15:00 -
[43] - Quote
Ripperljohn wrote:Kiteo Hatto wrote:Abloo-bloo These forums are full of amazing things today. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Kiteo Hatto
Equanimity Order
319
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 08:19:00 -
[44] - Quote
6/12/2012 must be a trollday or something, wow. Don't think i'll even bother with forums/eve today.
Also, CCP, can you add "ignore user and hide their posts" feature to your forum. "That's okay it annoys me when people pile on new definitions to the word sandbox every time CCP does something they don't like." - Alara IonStorm GD is where 60% of threads make you dumber and 10% which provide you with entertainment, the remaining 30% is a mix of both. |
Souisa
WESCORP 2.0
70
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Posted - 2012.12.06 08:23:00 -
[45] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:Aside from that, there's a large number of other issues that are years old.
1. Drones still split damage (that is, attack multiple targets), even with focus fire enabled.
2. Drone UI does not tell you the condition of the drone (SH/AR/HULL) before it is deployed. As such, you often deploy a near-dead drone and lose it instantly.
3. There's no way to see if your drones are being targeted, it is only visible after they begin taking damage, again a UI issue.
4. Drone stats make no sense. 100 signature radius? When a ship holding several of these drones has a sig radius of 120? When drone is 0.02% of the ship's mass and 0.03% of that ship's size/volume? Armor tanked extra-slow Gallente blaster drone has the same sig radius as an extra-fast shield tanked Minmatar drone? On what planet does that make sense?
5. Overabundance of modules - Omni, Nav, Link, Damage. Some of these need to be merged into a single module.
6. Lack of rigs and implants - we still have very few drone rigs and no drone implants that I know of. By comparison, turret and missile implants were introduced when? 2008? Yeah, it's about time.
7. It takes one click to fire all of the ship's turrets/launchers. It takes 5 clicks to deploy a flight of drones and see their HP. Which do you think is faster? Plus drones travel slower than both turret ordinance and missiles. Meaning not only are they slower to deploy, they take far longer to apply their damage compared to any other weapon system in the game.
There's lots and lots of other reasons why drones underperform. Most of these are years old.
But we got boyuntihjs system and safety systejgm! much needed! o/ |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1842
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 08:26:00 -
[46] - Quote
Kiteo Hatto wrote:6/12/2012 must be a trollday or something, wow. Don't think i'll even bother with forums/eve today.
Also, CCP, can you add "ignore user and hide their posts" feature to your forum. Ironically, you can hide posts by a user. Allow me to demonstrate. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Funky Lazers
Shin-Ra Ltd
17
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Posted - 2012.12.06 08:31:00 -
[47] - Quote
Kiteo Hatto wrote:6/12/2012 must be a trollday or something, wow. Don't think i'll even bother with forums/eve today.
Also, CCP, can you add "ignore user and hide their posts" feature to your forum.
Yep. Click the name below the avatar and use "Hide posts"
You know, few years ago you could actually read nullbear's posts/trolls. Now it's just tears and mindless babbling. |
Kiteo Hatto
Equanimity Order
320
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 09:14:00 -
[48] - Quote
Funky Lazers wrote:Kiteo Hatto wrote:6/12/2012 must be a trollday or something, wow. Don't think i'll even bother with forums/eve today.
Also, CCP, can you add "ignore user and hide their posts" feature to your forum. Yep. Click the name below the avatar and use "Hide posts" You know, few years ago you could actually read nullbear's posts/trolls. Now it's just tears and mindless babbling.
Brilliant! :O Thanks. "That's okay it annoys me when people pile on new definitions to the word sandbox every time CCP does something they don't like." - Alara IonStorm GD is where 60% of threads make you dumber and 10% which provide you with entertainment, the remaining 30% is a mix of both. |
Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
399
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 09:19:00 -
[49] - Quote
I am running things exactly the same as before and still haven't lost a drone, i think you guys are just trying to afk or something. |
Funky Lazers
Shin-Ra Ltd
18
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Posted - 2012.12.06 09:23:00 -
[50] - Quote
Doddy wrote:I am running things exactly the same as before and still haven't lost a drone, i think you guys are just trying to afk or something.
You forgot to tell us to "Adapt". "Adapt" - means you have to stop using ship you like and start flying Drake or Tengu like the rest nullbear newbs. |
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Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
399
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Posted - 2012.12.06 09:25:00 -
[51] - Quote
Funky Lazers wrote:Doddy wrote:I am running things exactly the same as before and still haven't lost a drone, i think you guys are just trying to afk or something. You forgot to tell us to "Adapt".
I would rather you didn't tbh, everyone is in competition after all.
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TheBlueMonkey
Don't Be a Menace That Red Alliance
211
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Posted - 2012.12.06 09:27:00 -
[52] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:Aside from that, there's a large number of other issues that are years old.
1. Drones still split damage (that is, attack multiple targets), even with focus fire enabled.
2. Drone UI does not tell you the condition of the drone (SH/AR/HULL) before it is deployed. As such, you often deploy a near-dead drone and lose it instantly.
3. There's no way to see if your drones are being targeted, it is only visible after they begin taking damage, again a UI issue.
4. Drone stats make no sense. 100 signature radius? When a ship holding several of these drones has a sig radius of 120? When drone is 0.02% of the ship's mass and 0.03% of that ship's size/volume? Armor tanked extra-slow Gallente blaster drone has the same sig radius as an extra-fast shield tanked Minmatar drone? On what planet does that make sense?
5. Overabundance of modules - Omni, Nav, Link, Damage. Some of these need to be merged into a single module.
6. Lack of rigs and implants - we still have very few drone rigs and no drone implants that I know of. By comparison, turret and missile implants were introduced when? 2008? Yeah, it's about time.
7. It takes one click to fire all of the ship's turrets/launchers. It takes 5 clicks to deploy a flight of drones and see their HP. Which do you think is faster? Plus drones travel slower than both turret ordinance and missiles. Meaning not only are they slower to deploy, they take far longer to apply their damage compared to any other weapon system in the game.
There's lots and lots of other reasons why drones underperform. Most of these are years old.
Please stop pointing out the actual issues with drones in the op's post, you're making him look stupid.
Rather than him just being stupid and complaining about not being able to drop drones and wander off anymore. |
Rordan D'Kherr
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
233
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Posted - 2012.12.06 09:33:00 -
[53] - Quote
So what's the point here? PVE micromanagement for drones needed now? I think that's a good thing. _______________________________________ Don't be scared, because being afk is not a crime. |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
2696
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 09:52:00 -
[54] - Quote
dexington wrote:baltec1 wrote:I wonder why it is that high sec bears are so bad at adapting to changes... Because null players bad at pve/eve and never learned to use drones, while more skilled hi-sec players constantly try to maximize their performance by utilizing every tool at their disposal. The problem is not adapting to change, it's the complete and absolute refusal of accepting any decrease in personal performance. While any clueless noob can excel in null, blobing and camping gates, it takes a true maestro to shine in hi-sec. Any dumb child can fool himself into believing he is playing the piano, while only using the white keys, it's takes a lot more to understand importance of using both the black and white keys.
Oh god I'm crying.
Please please please come out to null someday. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
1147
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Posted - 2012.12.06 10:06:00 -
[55] - Quote
Just finished a bunch of missions in a Rattlesnake (last mission was Angel Extravaganza). Seemed pretty simple: I used an armor rep on my drones (mostly Ogre II and Garde II). The NPC soon gave up on them and returned to shooting me.
No problem with light drones to get rid of webbers (I typically do them last, so I guess I have accumulated a lot of threat by then).
Didn't lose any drones. Nothing insta-popped.
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baltec1
Bat Country
3060
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Posted - 2012.12.06 10:31:00 -
[56] - Quote
Also chiming in again to say my light, med and sentries are all still heathy after running anoms. The problem with this change to missions is between the chair and keyboard. |
Funky Lazers
Shin-Ra Ltd
19
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Posted - 2012.12.06 10:32:00 -
[57] - Quote
I just finished doing Assault mission. I used Ogres II. Each time they used MWD I yelled "Go faster my servants! Go!". If you yell at them like that they fly 231% faster. Then they killed the whole pocket within 5 mins. The aggro was on me the whole time because I used my Taunt and Guard abilities.
Drones are fine, it's just no one has the right skills and experience of using them. I think CCP should reduce drone damage at least 2 times and their HP by 52.5%.
Adapt you newbs and use your verbal skills to increase drone performance! "Adapt" - means you have to stop using ship you like and start flying Drake or Tengu like the rest nullbear newbs. |
Borlag Crendraven
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
116
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 10:44:00 -
[58] - Quote
dexington wrote:Borlag Crendraven wrote:If 5 mouse clicks is too much effort to ask, maybe, just maybe you shouldn't be playing computer games. If CCP decided that guns no longer was able to group or auto reload, and randomly would stop firing, forcing the player to constantly watch them to see of they were active, would you also think that was a good idea? at times that how it feels to use drones.
Seeing that the point was apparently completely lost, let's see what drone users have done so far compared to the turret users shall we? Rattlesnake warps on grid, ctrl-click for one of them, f1 follows to draw agro. Drones launched to handle everything in the pocket. Player goes afk for the duration of the mission.
Turret user warps on grid, ctrl-clicks every one of them, or at least as many as they can lock. Pressing of f1 follows for each and every single critter one at a time. Player stays at the computer for the duration of the entire mission.
Tell me again how drone users have had it so incredibly hard when they've had to click so many times? |
Borlag Crendraven
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
116
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 10:48:00 -
[59] - Quote
TharOkha wrote:Borlag Crendraven wrote:If 5 mouse clicks is too much effort to ask, maybe, just maybe you shouldn't be playing computer games. Dude... you just win "dumbest post of the month"....and its just early december According this post . Perfectly written. Drone UI and logic are terrible, no mater if you PvP or PvE.
Drone UI are terrible yes, but again, if 5 mouse clicks is too much effort to ask, you shouldn't be playing games. Interacting with the controller used to play the game, whether it's mouse or keyboard, is quite neccessary for the game to be worth playing in the first place. If you seriously prefer "games" that require only one click to start and finish it, I'd recommend trying these things called "movies". They don't require much interaction at all, just sit on your ass and see what happens. |
Jandice Ymladris
Order Of Steel
107
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Posted - 2012.12.06 10:55:00 -
[60] - Quote
Several solutions have been added in this thread already. I'll sum them up:
In short, NPC AI now works with priority lists. Damage < Drones < E-war/logistics (not yet sure what ranks higher)
Bringn a friend: it's a MMO after all
-equip E-war/logi modules.
People have reported good succes with fitting modules like Target painters, webs, remote reppers (fix your drones & get the aggro yourself!), NOS (get energy & aggro!)
So you do have to slightly adapt your missionfit, but most missionships got either a midslot they can swap out, or got a highslot spare. |
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