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GMs take action against ISK sellers!

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Wrangler	Posted - 2005.06.24 11:28:00 - [1] I know that many of you might not always believe us when we say that the GMs actively look for ebayers and other scum of the MMOG world, but here it is! GM Arkanon posted a news item where he tells us they just banned 80 accounts! Please remember that discussing activities that are against the EULA such as ebayers and selling in game items and accounts are not allowed, this post is merely a way for us to let you know that Things Are Being DoneÖ! You can of course report this kind of behavior to the GMs by petitioning in game or Ask A Question on this website. Emailing the moderators will get it forwarded to the GMs, but we prefer if you petition it to them directly. [Read the Rules!] - [Email the Moderators]
Vistilantus	Posted - 2005.06.24 11:29:00 - [2] Edited by: Vistilantus on 24/06/2005 11:29:43 yay, go us! I have no sympathy. ~Vistilantus ~I don't Have an attitude problem, YOU have a perception problem.
mirel yirrin	Posted - 2005.06.24 11:30:00 - [3] Good job guys. ------------------------------------------- 05.05.05 16:22 [Notify} Combat Your Mega pulse Laser 2 strikes bunny, wrecking for 983.2 dmg . ... <<< Now Bunny is made of ash >:D ..
Rhaegar	Posted - 2005.06.24 11:31:00 - [4] Hell hath no fury like GM Arkanon Rhaegar Captain, ISD STAR
Sarkos	Posted - 2005.06.24 11:33:00 - [5] Awesome job people! Either free the slaves or we will come and get them.
Vinyl Pants	Posted - 2005.06.24 11:34:00 - [6] Good work!
Avon	Posted - 2005.06.24 11:40:00 - [7] Phew, glad I've never had enough isk to sell. Way to go Arkanon! ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Viceroy	Posted - 2005.06.24 11:43:00 - [8] Hmmm 80 accounts? So snip finally got banned? No naming people and no speculation on who got banned, thats between us (CCP/GMs) and the players - Wrangler __________________________ Finite Horizon Your end is our beginning.
Avon	Posted - 2005.06.24 11:47:00 - [9] Originally by: Viceroy Hmmm 80 accounts? So snip finally got banned? No naming people and no speculation on who got banned, thats between us (CCP/GMs) and the players - Wrangler ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Lanu	Posted - 2005.06.24 11:47:00 - [10] Originally by: Viceroy Hmmm 80 accounts? So snip finally got banned? No naming people and no speculation on who got banned, thats between us (CCP/GMs) and the players - Wrangler boo "You are most like the Cat, lazy and quiet. You aren't very exciting yet everyone notices your presence."
Omber Zombie	Posted - 2005.06.24 12:03:00 - [11] pwned ----------- I have a blog
Feronia	Posted - 2005.06.24 12:08:00 - [12] Let it be known that GM Arkanon is very persistent in his quest against macro miners and Ebayers. Nice work !!
Tommy X	Posted - 2005.06.24 12:11:00 - [13] You guys should look in your own back yard before casting the stones. The difference with this scheme is you are making the cashà clicky
Akilah Ashaki	Posted - 2005.06.24 12:14:00 - [14] Good job ! show no mercy
Akilah Ashaki	Posted - 2005.06.24 12:17:00 - [15] Originally by: Tommy X You guys should look in your own back yard before casting the stones. The difference with this scheme is you are making the cashà clicky This char are selled for ingame isk between player. CCP charge only a transfer fee to prevent abuse and even if it's profitable for them, Have you a problem with CCP gaining money for their work ?
Tommy X	Posted - 2005.06.24 12:24:00 - [16] Edited by: Tommy X on 24/06/2005 12:32:52 Originally by: Akilah Ashaki This char are selled for ingame isk between player. CCP charge only a transfer fee to prevent abuse and even if it's profitable for them, Have you a problem with CCP gaining money for their work ? But if I have 3 accounts and build characters to sell you are making isk from paying money for the accounts and transfer fee. CCP are making the money and the sellers are getting isk from paying money. Hey I'm, cool with that - just not that far from selling isk on eBay is it? Its just CCP are the pimps and the character runners are the users
gameforce	Posted - 2005.06.24 12:33:00 - [17] All do my account was banned to, but great way ban the isk sellers ccp doing a great job again ssssth, can i have the isk and stuff from the banned accounts
Akilah Ashaki	Posted - 2005.06.24 12:40:00 - [18] Originally by: Tommy X Originally by: Akilah Ashaki This char are selled for ingame isk between player. CCP charge only a transfer fee to prevent abuse and even if it's profitable for them, Have you a problem with CCP gaining money for their work ? But if I have 3 accounts and build characters to sell you are making isk from paying money for the accounts and transfer fee. CCP are making the money and the sellers are getting isk from paying money. Hey I'm, cool with that - just not that far from selling isk on eBay is it? Indeed but I see 3 major differences : 1¦/ There is no agreement, you wont have x isks for y SP 2¦/ The char sellers isn't assured to get a deal (in your linked thread the seller seems to have probleme to sell his char) 3¦/ (and most important) It's CCP benefiting of the RL cash not a random leech. More cash for CCP = greater EvE support and happy Oveur and TomB. Every serious eve players know the importance of the last point on their game experience
SinBin	Posted - 2005.06.24 12:41:00 - [19] I was anti ebay 1's but since I moved to pure pvp it was a handy sorce of isk without having to leave the battle field. Thats gunno push the the prices up for pvpers that dont mine & do ebay to buy isk & encorage more effort from ebayers but still impressive effort by 1 GM. Why cant you name & shame if you have the evidance to ban ?. _______________________________________ Ill Shutup when CCP remove bookmarks
Karol Kei	Posted - 2005.06.24 12:42:00 - [20] Job well done. Thanks.
Wrangler	Posted - 2005.06.24 12:45:00 - [21] Well, interesting to see how this thread gets off topic. The thing is, selling in game items and in game money for real life money is not allowed and will get you banned. Selling characters for in game money is allowed and will not get you banned. And that should end the discussion on that topic, at least in this thread. Meaning all future posts about it will get deleted. [Read the Rules!] - [Email the Moderators]
Eris Discordia	Posted - 2005.06.24 12:47:00 - [22] I'm very glad that this announcement was made and now you all have an idea how hard the GM's work to stop behaviour that is against the rules. GM Arkanon is watching you I ♥ my pink dreadnought of pwnage Mail [email protected] if you have any questions.
Solusar	Posted - 2005.06.24 12:48:00 - [23] Great work GM's o7
Typherin laidai	Posted - 2005.06.24 12:55:00 - [24] Originally by: Eris Discordia I'm very glad that this announcement was made and now you all have an idea how hard the GM's work to stop behaviour that is against the rules. GM Arkanon is watching you /me looks sheepish... Ebaying sucks... enough said. Eris can I have your dreadnaught please ... Or i file a complaint of sexual assault /emote points below \/ Originally by: Eris Discordia gives Typherin some loving
GM Arkanon	Posted - 2005.06.24 12:56:00 - [25] Originally by: Tommy X You guys should look in your own back yard before casting the stones. The difference with this scheme is you are making the cashà clicky Hello everyone and thanks for your feedback. I really do not want to get into an argument about whether our policy of allowing character sales from ISK is tantamount to selling ingame items on Ebay. But please consider, before making such allegations, that behind an ebay operation such as the one just ahem CRUSHED by the GMs (que maniacal laughter), there are typcally also macro miners, possibly even operated by people hired to do so for dismal pay. We have banned accounts that are obviously some sort of business venture, with accounts numbered (XXX1, XXX2, etc) and that, amongst other things makes you think that this must be some sort of "sweatshop" operation. And we don't want it in EVE. Macroers and those who deal in ingame items are not contributing anything to this game or it's community. Rather, they feed off it and will happily ruin it, as long as they are making profit. I have no sympathy for these people and neither should you. By the way, I know I posted the news article, since it's in my job description to grab as much glory as I can, but credit where credit is due: It was GM Rendo who handled the research and investigation and a darn good job he did too. We ban ebayers all the time, we just thought we'd brag about this one GM Arkanon Senior Game Master EVE CSS
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2005.06.24 13:01:00 - [26] OWNED. Good job, Arkanon. <3 GMs/Devs. -- Dark Shikari: POS Consultant! Want your POS to make money like mine do? I've designed POSs that make upwards of 50 million a day in profit--each! Just call me up--no ubermoons required!
Skarsnik	Posted - 2005.06.24 13:02:00 - [27] Good going guys, lets get the evil do-ers out of the game. While this thread will obviously get some attention from Forum mods and GM's can I ask the following :- In light of this, is there anything, we the players, can look out for in an attempt to help you weed these evil do-ers out. If you could give us some guidelines on what to look out for we could be a great asset at times (although I might expect you'd have more info to go through) Anyone else have any thoughts on this? --------------------------------- No Slugs were harmed in the creation of this signature ---------------------------------
Nom Anor	Posted - 2005.06.24 13:03:00 - [28] Congrats GMs, good job! I think Ebaying is totally ghey, and people who buy isk from it for new chars miss out on a lot of the game imo. Nice to see you guys are actively seeking out the ebayers and the job you do is a massive help to the community and the eve economy. Keep bustin' them macros!
EXZODIER	Posted - 2005.06.24 13:07:00 - [29] Now lets see CCP contact E-bay and tellthem not to allow people to post there auctions on there site surley there is copywrite or something that means they cant
Tarm	Posted - 2005.06.24 13:09:00 - [30] We thank you for your hard work for the community. PIE salutes you. -------------------
Jim Steele	Posted - 2005.06.24 13:13:00 - [31] Glad to hear CCP are looking after us, I wouldnt pay people so i didnt have to play the game i pay for and love. It seems illogical to me, and being skint is part of the fun, since whatever i own, i have spent time accumulating Death to the Galante
Azryen	Posted - 2005.06.24 13:25:00 - [32] look on ebay to discover names, and send them true petition window great job guys go futher with this
John Blackthorn	Posted - 2005.06.24 13:25:00 - [33] I'm a bit disapointed. I don't see any harm in selling on e-bay. Some people are making there only living by playing games and selling for real money. I've contemplated it myself :P
Zandramus	Posted - 2005.06.24 13:32:00 - [34] Good Job, Cant stand E-Bayers Zandramus Homeless And Clueless S.A.S
Grimster	Posted - 2005.06.24 13:41:00 - [35] w00t! CCP for the ******* win!! These people are not fans of the game, they just want to direct things so they can fleece us all. Well done guys, I was wondering if this would ever happen.
Omatje	Posted - 2005.06.24 13:44:00 - [36] Great work! Now that's what we call an isk sink Why dont we all f1f2f3 eachother?
Siri Danae	Posted - 2005.06.24 13:48:00 - [37] Wow. Its like the FBI guys in the Untouchables... This is a raid, you're busted for isk bootlegging! ...I'm suddenly seeing Sean Connery and Kevin Costner running around with rayguns.
Graelyn	Posted - 2005.06.24 13:53:00 - [38] Hi-yaah! Minister - Public Affairs AEGIS MILITIA ATCR Forums
mahhy	Posted - 2005.06.24 13:55:00 - [39] Originally by: Eris Discordia GM Arkanon is watching you /me moons GM Arkanon
altofamain	Posted - 2005.06.24 14:00:00 - [40] the motherland is dwindling.
Winterblink	Posted - 2005.06.24 14:05:00 - [41] Good job, CCP. (I don't think much else needs to be said ;) ) ___winterblink/warp_drive_active/eve_nature_vraie//
Demetrius Carnigie	Posted - 2005.06.24 14:08:00 - [42] nice one guys, are the buyers being banned aswell? sellers are only half the problem. oh and if you tilt your head to the left, and squint Winterblink looks kinda like a jove! :p
Winterblink	Posted - 2005.06.24 14:09:00 - [43] Originally by: Demetrius Carnigie oh and if you tilt your head to the left, and squint Winterblink looks kinda like a jove! :p Is it the eyes, or the hair? :) ___winterblink/warp_drive_active/eve_nature_vraie//
FireFoxx80	Posted - 2005.06.24 14:25:00 - [44] Are pyramid schemes kept in line through blackmail, threats, and downright lies still ok? ex P-TMC If you think you can do a better job, go find yourself a datacentre to host a box, get a copy of Visual Studio, and STFU.
DigitalCommunist	Posted - 2005.06.24 14:26:00 - [45] Kickass work! I wish to have GM Arkanon's love child _____________________________________ Perpetually driven, your end is our beginning. "Can I be a consultant for EVE II?" - WhiteDwarf
Roshan longshot	Posted - 2005.06.24 14:34:00 - [46] THANKS CCP!!! Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter,pirate[/i] or mixture of them all. [i]As read from the original box and from this site.
Wrangler	Posted - 2005.06.24 14:35:00 - [47] Originally by: FireFoxx80 Are pyramid schemes kept in line through blackmail, threats, and downright lies still ok? Pyramid schemes are illegal in some countries at least, I don't know if they are in EVE, you'd have to check with the GMs. [Read the Rules!] - [Email the Moderators]
Taz Devlin	Posted - 2005.06.24 14:37:00 - [48] Excellent work GM's!!! Respect!
WhiskeyDP	Posted - 2005.06.24 14:41:00 - [49] /me salutes GM Rendo and the others for a very well done job ================== wts Zealot - @ 75m wts BPC's - check my bio ingame(i have a huge selection of ships/modules)
DeODokktor	Posted - 2005.06.24 14:52:00 - [50] Originally by: Wrangler Well, interesting to see how this thread gets off topic. The thing is, selling in game items and in game money for real life money is not allowed and will get you banned. Selling characters for in game money is allowed and will not get you banned. And that should end the discussion on that topic, at least in this thread. Meaning all future posts about it will get deleted. Ebay Selling $ 4 isk = PLayer gets $$$ Selling Chars 4 isk = CCP gets 20$ Selling ETC 4 isk = ccp get Time Card $$$ So players can easily still buy isk .. Just buy a time card and sell it in game..
Connor Llewllyan	Posted - 2005.06.24 14:56:00 - [51] Originally by: Beldaws I'm glad to see the isk sellers banned, but my one concern is what happens to the Tech II BPO's that may have been on these accounts? They banned the isk sellers and the providers of isk. You can pretty much bet that some of those isk providers were getting most of their isk from Tech II sells. Will these Tech II BPO's be put back into the lottery? Or even better, handed over to the pour directly? entering poverty mode
Rutoo	Posted - 2005.06.24 14:57:00 - [52] Good Job CCP. _______________________________________________ Dreams are like stars, you choose them as your guides, and following them you will reach your destiny.
Wrangler	Posted - 2005.06.24 14:59:00 - [53] As Oveur has stated, many times, they keep a close eye on the tech 2 BPOs in game, they see how they are used or not used etc. If tech 2 BPOs gets inactive or lost, they make sure the agent system gives out another one. [Read the Rules!] - [Email the Moderators]
CursedAngel	Posted - 2005.06.24 15:00:00 - [54] is there any way i can convince you to release the ingame names of the banned bastards? <- just realy realy hates ebayers
Lyra VX	Posted - 2005.06.24 15:03:00 - [55] I really have to question the logic of this. 80 fewer accounts in Eve and for what? Really, what's gained by this move? I think SOE had the right idea about this tbh :/
Wrangler	Posted - 2005.06.24 15:03:00 - [56] Originally by: CursedAngel is there any way i can convince you to release the ingame names of the banned bastards? <- just realy realy hates ebayers Its the policy of everyone involved in EVE, including CCP, Siminn and ISD, to never reveal information like that. [Read the Rules!] - [Email the Moderators]
Ebedar	Posted - 2005.06.24 15:06:00 - [57] Warning! One Step Further
Crato	Posted - 2005.06.24 15:08:00 - [58] nice job ccp :-D now go take the rest out there :-D
Altai Saker	Posted - 2005.06.24 15:09:00 - [59] No wonder theirs so little resistance in cache... bye ebayers
Hllaxiu	Posted - 2005.06.24 15:17:00 - [60] Originally by: Wrangler Pyramid schemes are illegal in some countries at least, I don't know if they are in EVE, you'd have to check with the GMs. Hmmm... someone needs to register freeraven.com and put up some annoying banner ads in their sig... ("shoot the ibis and win a free raven!")
QwaarJet	Posted - 2005.06.24 15:19:00 - [61] I don't particularly agree with this.If people want to sell ISK for real money, I say let them. "Hobbes, she stepped into the Perimter Of Wisdom.Run!"
Ithildin	Posted - 2005.06.24 15:25:00 - [62] Originally by: QwaarJet I don't particularly agree with this.If people want to sell ISK for real money, I say let them. Nope, you pay CCP to play the game and CCP provides you with the game and the access. The game contains all the tools that are to be used in game, besides a few tools that are supported or encouraged out of game. The game and access also comes with rules, naturally, and it is CCP as the producer who makes these rules. If you don't agree with the rules, then you don't buy the product. This is why it's so important to read the EULA. sorry for the disallowed discussion, mods and GMs -- If TC causes you discomfort that you feel is unwarranted or may be outside TC's current contract - contact me, please.
Admiral Pieg	Posted - 2005.06.24 15:34:00 - [63] Originally by: Altai Saker No wonder theirs so little resistance in cache... bye ebayers bye ru.. eh, ebayers ______________________ Pod from above.
Corvus Dove	Posted - 2005.06.24 15:35:00 - [64] Originally by: Lyra VX I really have to question the logic of this. 80 fewer accounts in Eve and for what? Really, what's gained by this move? I think SOE had the right idea about this tbh :/ When SOE has a right idea, humans will start laying eggs instead of giving live birth. Here's what they do that is bad for EVE: 1. Promote inflation by putting noobs in rich positions to start out with. 2. Promote inflation by lowering risk. 3. Promote inflation by preventing items from reaching regular market. 4. Speed newer players through various stages of growth in the game, leading to early quits/boredom quits/OMGIDONTKNOWWHATIMDOINGBUTIPAIDTOBEUBERANDIDIEANYWAY quits. 5. Create further attachment to EVE items for players, which is always bad, because fear of loss in EVE hurts EVE. 6. Otherwise prevent CCP from getting paid 7. Other things that I can't list because my boss is coming and I have to close this window. "You Griefer!!!" = "You Doodyhead!!!"
Laendra	Posted - 2005.06.24 15:37:00 - [65] Originally by: GM Arkanon We ban ebayers all the time, we just thought we'd brag about this one It would actually be nice to know how often accounts are banned because of this....would have more effect on potential ebayers if they could see a report page that shows something to the effect of: Accounts banned in the last 24 hours due to selling ingame items for cash: 2 Accounts banned in the last week due to selling ingame items for cash: 24 Accounts banned in the last month due to selling ingame items for cash: 262 Accounts banned since launch due to selling ingame items for cash: 2,036 :) -------------------
Wrangler	Posted - 2005.06.24 15:37:00 - [66] Selling in game money and or in game items for real life money is not allowed, there is no discussion. Further posts discussing it will get deleted. [Read the Rules!] - [Email the Moderators]
Rath Amon	Posted - 2005.06.24 15:41:00 - [67] hahaha
nostredumbass	Posted - 2005.06.24 15:44:00 - [68] Are these characters still existing on the servers or will they be deleted also? Not naming any names, just wanted to verify certain characters for myself :) As a certain seller seems to be missing in action from ebay totally. Cough any HAC + t2 modules cough
solosnake	Posted - 2005.06.24 16:05:00 - [69] Well done CCP! I imagine all transactions of the banned accounts have been logged. I would suggest contacting the players who benefitted by buying the ISK (and so encouraged the ISK sellers) and warn them that their activities have been noted, and that although no action will be taken this time, they had in fact breached their terms of agreement with CCP.
HUGO DRAX	Posted - 2005.06.24 16:28:00 - [70] Originally by: John Blackthorn I'm a bit disapointed. I don't see any harm in selling on e-bay. Some people are making there only living by playing games and selling for real money. I've contemplated it myself :P Get a real job. This type of activity ruins the economy and hurts the game. This is supposed to be a fantasy space game, when you involve changing real hard currency for in game ISK you unbalance the whole game mechanics and ruin it for everyone involved. And this could potentially ruin the game for everyone if inflation gets out of control and people leave.
Jaabaa Prime	Posted - 2005.06.24 16:34:00 - [71] Well done CCP -- Intergalactic Teeth Pullers "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2005.06.24 16:35:00 - [72] I won't believe these accounts have been banned until we're told the names and amounts involved, tbh. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
DigitalCommunist	Posted - 2005.06.24 16:37:00 - [73] Originally by: Lyra VX I really have to question the logic of this. 80 fewer accounts in Eve and for what? Really, what's gained by this move? I think SOE had the right idea about this tbh :/ You're joking, right? SOE can go to hell :\| _____________________________________ Perpetually driven, your end is our beginning. "Can I be a consultant for EVE II?" - WhiteDwarf
Wrangler	Posted - 2005.06.24 16:37:00 - [74] Originally by: Joshua Calvert I won't believe these accounts have been banned until we're told the names and amounts involved, tbh. What you really mean is that you're curios and really want to know that, and you'll post anything to get the information, even though you know thats not going to happen. Right? [Read the Rules!] - [Email the Moderators]
Swanee	Posted - 2005.06.24 16:53:00 - [75] Originally by: Tommy X You guys should look in your own back yard before casting the stones. The difference with this scheme is you are making the cashà clicky Ahem I was wondering why I was having so many hits :p Just for the record, I am not in breach of the EULA like ebayers are - all the trading I do stays in game and for me, the cost of transferring and paying the subs on the accounts of the characters I train is money well spent, it goes back into the development of the game we all love - i choose to pay extra to CCP so I would be grateful if my name wasnt dragged through the mud. :)
OffBeaT	Posted - 2005.06.24 16:55:00 - [76] yea, this had too be stoped. the ebay selling was starting too drive game mod prices in isk too high for anyone on the eve markets. it was almost as if they where ploting too push us too ebay buying. hopfuly ccp wont lose too many accounts over this, but it has too be done. these guys arn't in this for the game but too cash in on it.
Galk	Posted - 2005.06.24 16:57:00 - [77] Originally by: Eris Discordia I'm very glad that this announcement was made and now you all have an idea how hard the GM's work to stop behaviour that is against the rules. Where do you want me to start... *Hands out the halo's to the eve moderation team. If only i was allowed to show the truth, people would im sure join me in setting fire to said halo's. I realy don't care about isk sellers, all i realy care about is being called numerious nasty things by a few eve subscibers (half of which now is known not to be true) sort that out.. and i might. ------------------------
Deja Thoris	Posted - 2005.06.24 17:08:00 - [78] Job well done.
Cmdr Sy	Posted - 2005.06.24 17:09:00 - [79] Edited by: Cmdr Sy on 24/06/2005 17:10:16 Originally by: Galk I realy don't care about isk sellers, all i realy care about is being called numerious nasty things by a few eve subscibers (half of which now is known not to be true) sort that out.. and i might. Off-topic (sorry!), but I have to ask...whatever it is, eve-mail me. You keep referring to some dark and mysterious vendetta, and keep pwning some guy in Aunia, (loved the barge kill vid BTW), I've got to know the score now. To maintain some relevance to topic, well done Devs, j00 pwn 411, etc etc.
zincol	Posted - 2005.06.24 17:09:00 - [80] About time...
Carbon Zee	Posted - 2005.06.24 17:27:00 - [81] Ok, I think I was banned along with the 80 accounts, for I am unable to login since that post, account says active under My Account, I did NOT purchase any ISK, thats so ******* lame to do anyways, I wasnt even emailed about it, whats going on? Some GM please reply.
Nostradamu5	Posted - 2005.06.24 17:28:00 - [82] Yes the GMÆs did the right thing but, 80+ heavy duty miners wiped out along with equipment and other resources, who is going to fill the void of these highly motivated roid busters? What will the effect to the economy be? I would be willing to take isk not to mine and to further study what effect this action may or may not have on the Eve economy. Faulty testing kept me from delivering the "Logic Editor" earlier. I was using my own post and it kept blanking everything out.
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2005.06.24 17:29:00 - [83] Originally by: Wrangler Originally by: Joshua Calvert I won't believe these accounts have been banned until we're told the names and amounts involved, tbh. What you really mean is that you're curios and really want to know that, and you'll post anything to get the information, even though you know thats not going to happen. Right? ::makes mental note; reverse psychology failed. Try new tactic!:: LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Astarte Nosferatu	Posted - 2005.06.24 17:39:00 - [84] Originally by: Carbon Zee Ok, I think I was banned along with the 80 accounts, for I am unable to login since that post, account says active under My Account, I did NOT purchase any ISK, thats so ******* lame to do anyways, I wasnt even emailed about it, whats going on? Some GM please reply. As I remember, I think you can't post on these forums when your banned. At least I couldn't when my account ran out, but not exactly sure tbh. Great job guys, let them lamers burn! ------------------------------------------ Follower of the Blood Revolution. Sani Sabik.
Carbon Zee	Posted - 2005.06.24 17:42:00 - [85] Originally by: Astarte Nosferatu Originally by: Carbon Zee Ok, I think I was banned along with the 80 accounts, for I am unable to login since that post, account says active under My Account, I did NOT purchase any ISK, thats so ******* lame to do anyways, I wasnt even emailed about it, whats going on? Some GM please reply. As I remember, I think you can't post on these forums when your banned. At least I couldn't when my account ran out, but not exactly sure tbh. Great job guys, let them lamers burn! I couldnt, I had to use a proxy to access the forums.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.06.24 17:47:00 - [86] Originally by: Wrangler Originally by: FireFoxx80 Are pyramid schemes kept in line through blackmail, threats, and downright lies still ok? Pyramid schemes are illegal in some countries at least, I don't know if they are in EVE, you'd have to check with the GMs. Many of the uhhh...economic reasons why they don't work very well arn't valid in Eve. It's also very easy for someone to walk away with a lot of isk, so running one relies on trust. I don't see the problem :) (equally, I'm not going to start one. Waste of my time...) And without getting into dangerous waters, I completely agree that company-type organised ebay sweatshops and item farming are bad and should not be tolerated. Say NO to target painters
Naos Zapatero	Posted - 2005.06.24 17:52:00 - [87] Nice one, thank you for your hard work for the community.
Gerome Doutrande	Posted - 2005.06.24 17:55:00 - [88] Originally by: Carbon Zee Originally by: Astarte Nosferatu Originally by: Carbon Zee Ok, I think I was banned along with the 80 accounts, for I am unable to login since that post, account says active under My Account, I did NOT purchase any ISK, thats so ******* lame to do anyways, I wasnt even emailed about it, whats going on? Some GM please reply. As I remember, I think you can't post on these forums when your banned. At least I couldn't when my account ran out, but not exactly sure tbh. Great job guys, let them lamers burn! I couldnt, I had to use a proxy to access the forums. you wouldn't be able to login via a proxy either, as your account (login/pw) would be disabled i am sure. so no, you are not most likely. anyway please contact a gm, as this is not the right place to get an answer to that.
Wrangler	Posted - 2005.06.24 17:57:00 - [89] Originally by: Carbon Zee Originally by: Astarte Nosferatu Originally by: Carbon Zee Ok, I think I was banned along with the 80 accounts, for I am unable to login since that post, account says active under My Account, I did NOT purchase any ISK, thats so ******* lame to do anyways, I wasnt even emailed about it, whats going on? Some GM please reply. As I remember, I think you can't post on these forums when your banned. At least I couldn't when my account ran out, but not exactly sure tbh. Great job guys, let them lamers burn! I couldnt, I had to use a proxy to access the forums. Probably some DNS problem or whatever, I'm not that technical, but contacting your ISP could be a good idea. If you were banned you wouldn't be able to post at all, not even using a proxy. And there would be a message telling you that when you tried to log in. [Read the Rules!] - [Email the Moderators]
Monstrous Issue	Posted - 2005.06.24 18:12:00 - [90] Unfortunately they'll all have new accounts by now and be back grinding out cash. Being banned is just a minor occupational hazard to 'professional' MMOers.
Allen Deckard	Posted - 2005.06.24 18:13:00 - [91] Originally by: HUGO DRAX Originally by: John Blackthorn I'm a bit disapointed. I don't see any harm in selling on e-bay. Some people are making there only living by playing games and selling for real money. I've contemplated it myself :P Get a real job. This type of activity ruins the economy and hurts the game. This is supposed to be a fantasy space game, when you involve changing real hard currency for in game ISK you unbalance the whole game mechanics and ruin it for everyone involved. And this could potentially ruin the game for everyone if inflation gets out of control and people leave. Personally I think buying isk for real money is just cheeting yourself out of a game. I have enough real $ that I could buy enough isk to never worry about it but then again why play the game then? HOWEVER Your assumption that it ruins the economy is false I believe. Why? Well if we are soley speaking of buying isk on ebay the isk came from the game and is simply returing to the game. If I decide to quit the game and give all my stuff to another player in my corp it is not huring the economy it is simply the transfer if isk from one person to another. However if you are speaking of macro miners then yes I would have to agree with you that using a third party program in order to bring a product into the game world does ruin the economy. But the simple purchase of a character or isk does nothing to change the economy and unless you can make me think of something I haven't thought of I hold to my statement.
H0ot	Posted - 2005.06.24 18:13:00 - [92] To the person who said: "I think SOE had the right idea about this tbh :/" You obviously didn't play EQII Before AND After the sale policy change. Everyone in that game now has dollar signs in their eyes, it has totally ruined the spirit of the game, try going on a raid some time to find out why. Should something similar happen with EVE i'm sure lots of people would quit out of protest.
Imbrogli0	Posted - 2005.06.24 18:19:00 - [93] I happen to agree with Laendra. You know why even non-combatants carry weapons in a war time situation? Someone will think twice about atacking. Dont see why at least the number of banned acounts would not be published somewhere. It is a proven deterent.
Aitrus	Posted - 2005.06.24 18:24:00 - [94] Originally by: Monstrous Issue Unfortunately they'll all have new accounts by now and be back grinding out cash. Being banned is just a minor occupational hazard to 'professional' MMOers. Yeah, but the skill training loss will be a nasty setback. There is no powerlevelling in Eve. (Thank god)
Embattle	Posted - 2005.06.24 18:32:00 - [95] I've never been that bothered about people selling isk, items, etc.
Jess Tamblyn	Posted - 2005.06.24 18:37:00 - [96] Your policy on not giving the banned ingame names will hurt the community. I'v seen 4 posts that insinuated that members of RA and more specific the ru section, is the guilty Party. Either you should drop the Names or you should moderate your tread better, the way it goes now people including me will asume that members of the RA did the dirty deed, and many inocent players will get a bad name!
Maxon	Posted - 2005.06.24 18:42:00 - [97] Excellent News :D
Corvus Dove	Posted - 2005.06.24 18:48:00 - [98] I'm not sure why everyone's spazzing about the lack of name-n'-shame. Just see who of the Yulai regulars is consistently absent from local these days. "You Griefer!!!" = "You Doodyhead!!!"
DeODokktor	Posted - 2005.06.24 19:06:00 - [99] Originally by: HUGO DRAX Originally by: John Blackthorn I'm a bit disapointed. I don't see any harm in selling on e-bay. Some people are making there only living by playing games and selling for real money. I've contemplated it myself :P Get a real job. This type of activity ruins the economy and hurts the game. This is supposed to be a fantasy space game, when you involve changing real hard currency for in game ISK you unbalance the whole game mechanics and ruin it for everyone involved. And this could potentially ruin the game for everyone if inflation gets out of control and people leave. The only "Economy" it hurts is CCP's Bottom Line.. If it's so "Game" Destroying then why dont we see the other ways this is done removed. Character Transfer. ETC. Everyone seen the GM's do something and they say "Good Moral stand". I think all of you do-gooders need to look at what's been done and who it will help. I am not saying I support players using ebay (or that I am against it).. Just that you guys feel it's okay for ccp to sell you isk for $$ but not for a player to sell you isk for $$
Canthus Prime	Posted - 2005.06.24 19:09:00 - [100] Woot, go CCP.
Rover Vitesse	Posted - 2005.06.24 19:11:00 - [101] Way to go CCP. Although i like nubs buying lots of expensive ships, then coming back for more 3 minutes later, I do agree it is against the spirit of the game. Its a game guys....Real Life is imbalanced, at least let me enjoy a virtual world where everybody starts off with the equal chance to be great and powerful, or suck....instead of how big Daddys wallet is.
Imbrogli0	Posted - 2005.06.24 19:15:00 - [102] hey DeODokktor, Ever worked hard on a project only to have some else profit from it. Its thier game. Sink or Swim, it's CCP's Pride and Joy. They have every right to keep other people from making money off thier own work and dedication.
theos phobou	Posted - 2005.06.24 19:24:00 - [103] it can't be about ccp's bottom line. 1 - any community that entrenches itself around selling in-game items to other players for isk or cash is a community of paying customers who enhance the game for other players, thus keeping them paying for game time as well. killing 80 accounts is revenue LOSS for ccp. i don't see the damage to the game in buying/selling on ebay, but that is just my opinion and i honor the eula. 2 - buying/selling time-codes for isk in game is currently kosher, but again its not bad for ccp's bottom line either because when A buys a timecode and sells it to B for isk, ccp wins. B is most likely not buying timecodes directly from ccp because he can't afford it in real life. therefore without middleman A, ccp would never make a sale to B. this way B is buying timecodes through A and both A and B are happy. no harm no foul. 3 - the only complaint i see could be from the role-players who are averse to going outside the game for anything. nevermind that they are paying cash for time in the game. but i see their point. if you are a pureist then it sucks when others can get an advantage over you by tapping resources outside the game. theos phobou ceo, dark templars http://www.thereverend.org/eve/ (yeah i know)
Ikvar	Posted - 2005.06.24 19:25:00 - [104] This is a good thing, as it will help reduce inflation ftw. Go banning people! _________________
Wrangler	Posted - 2005.06.24 19:27:00 - [105] I thought I made myself clear! Discussing if selling in game items and or money for real life money is not permitted on these forums! It isn't allowed, life with it! [Read the Rules!] - [Email the Moderators]
Allen Deckard	Posted - 2005.06.24 19:43:00 - [106] Not gonna argue but isn't that what this thread infact is wrangler? I mean the even the title?
kieron	Posted - 2005.06.24 20:08:00 - [107] Replying to a bunch of different questions that have popped up in this thread. Q: Who were the accounts/players? A: Their names will not be released by a representative of CCP, Siminn or ISD. Even though they were exploiting the game, they are still entitled to their privacy. Q: Do the characters still exist in the game? A: The accounts were banned, but the characters were not deleted. Deleting characters causes major problems if a character is removed and it is discovered that a mistake was made. Q: How can I identify players like this and what should I do to help? A: Quite often, macro'ers and ISK farmers will have a number of characters named <name>1, <name>2, <name>3, etc. This makes writing a macro easier than for a list of unique names. Also, repeated actions with little variation, like watching a video set on replay. The pattern may take some time to see, but it will be there. Often, there will be no response to a chat request. To help with situations like this, an e-mail to [email protected] is generally the best course of action. Q: What about the BPOs that may have been on these accounts? A: The Devs are looking into the accounts to see if there are any BPOS or like items. If there are, the Devs will work out a fair distribution system. Q: They probably have all started up new accounts and are merrily farming ISK again. Is there anything you can do to stop them? A: There are a variety of options available to the GM team to prevent repeat offenses, including an IP ban, banning an IP range, just flat out banning an ISP and much more. Q: I can't log into the game but I can post here. Am I one of the accounts that were banned? A: If you can post on the fourms, you were not banned. A game ban immediately removes your forum access as well. Your problem with logging in lies elsewhere. Q: Can I have their stuff? A: No!!! kieron Community Manager, EVE Online
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2005.06.24 20:16:00 - [108] Quote: Q: What about the BPOs that may have been on these accounts? Every day I don't get a tech II BPO, a kitten dies somewhere in Eve. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Ryctor	Posted - 2005.06.24 20:24:00 - [109] Sadly I am on agreement with Joshy. There is no harm in releasing the player names of these asshats. Its not like your releasing the account names and home addresses. At the vary least it would be nice to know if any came out of "established" corporations. Public humiliation has always been a great way of making sure the rest of the peons lockstep and toe the line.
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2005.06.24 20:31:00 - [110] Originally by: Ryctor Sadly I am on agreement with Joshy. There is no harm in releasing the player names of these asshats. Its not like your releasing the account names and home addresses. At the vary least it would be nice to know if any came out of "established" corporations. Public humiliation has always been a great way of making sure the rest of the peons lockstep and toe the line. Our local newspaper contains a "Court Round-Up" which names and shames local offenders found guilty of public disorder crimes etc. The local metro company displays huge posters with names of the people who were caught travelling without paying fare etc. Local Police say it is a very good way to prevent offences. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Dionysus Davinci	Posted - 2005.06.24 20:55:00 - [111] Edited by: Dionysus Davinci on 24/06/2005 20:55:08 Originally by: Joshua Calvert Originally by: Ryctor Sadly I am on agreement with Joshy. There is no harm in releasing the player names of these asshats. Its not like your releasing the account names and home addresses. At the vary least it would be nice to know if any came out of "established" corporations. Public humiliation has always been a great way of making sure the rest of the peons lockstep and toe the line. Our local newspaper contains a "Court Round-Up" which names and shames local offenders found guilty of public disorder crimes etc. The local metro company displays huge posters with names of the people who were caught travelling without paying fare etc. Local Police say it is a very good way to prevent offences. Key differance, court records and police records are public property/knowledge. A private company is not your local municpal and hence must keep such details private. Espically if they have a privacy statement or such states like PA could seek an International Judgement on CCP.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.06.24 21:22:00 - [112] Originally by: Ryctor Sadly I am on agreement with Joshy. There is no harm in releasing the player names of these asshats. Its not like your releasing the account names and home addresses. At the vary least it would be nice to know if any came out of "established" corporations. Public humiliation has always been a great way of making sure the rest of the peons lockstep and toe the line. Yea, there's just the minor unfortunate issue of legality to consider. Privacy laws differ so wildly that it is, bluntly, NOT safe to disclose this sort of information if you are a commercial entity. Say NO to target painters
Corvus Dove	Posted - 2005.06.24 21:25:00 - [113] It's probably a legal thing. They do business in the USA> In the USA, if someone's character were named and shamed publicly, and someone felt that this defamed them personally (say someone IRL knew their main, especially a co-worker or boss), the company could be sued for breach of privacy and slander. Since CCP is based it Reykjavik(sp?), Iceland, I'm not sure that particular law applies. It may, since it seems to focus more on American citizens than with whom they do business, or there may be a similar law in Iceland. Either way, it's probably treading legal ground. "You Griefer!!!" = "You Doodyhead!!!"
Face Lifter	Posted - 2005.06.24 21:32:00 - [114] This is good news, the banning of isk sellers. Everything would be fine except for 1 thing - why can't people discuss it? GMs should have posted character names of all those banned accounts. That would have been nice. But instead they give good news and taint it with little absurd policies. It's like US government saying, "hey we captured the 10 most wanted terrorists! But we won't tell you who they are and if you discuss them, you will be taken to jail." Good news with nasty aftertaste.
Gungankllr	Posted - 2005.06.24 21:38:00 - [115] If you notice people not log on ever again, then there you go. www.hadean.org
Darkrydar	Posted - 2005.06.24 21:53:00 - [116] What we need is a Deep Throat in CCP. Feel free to mail, I can guarantee your annonyomity.
true sight	Posted - 2005.06.24 22:30:00 - [117] I think this is all the right decision, revealing the name makes no difference, I cant see CCP making this up, if they said they banned 80 accounts, then Im sure they banned 80 accounts. people only want to know the names to be nosey and interfering. Its also quite possible they started right up again, but at least they wont be all in covetors strip mining belts at speed. This benefits eve in MANY ways 1) Reduces inflation 2) Increases size of ore deposits in empire space (hey, to me thats a good thing!) 3) Makes eve more fair. if you want 50mil isk.. you have to go earn it. eve is a game, and peoples' real-life financial situation should not make them better than everyone else ingame. otherwise if i were rich (I wish), I could go on ebay, buy every single chunk of ISK... and be wealthier than everyone else.... how is that fair? True Sight
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2005.06.24 22:37:00 - [118] We're not asking for real names. Account names in a computer game have no place in any legal proceedings, surely? LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!

Chribba	Posted - 2005.06.24 22:57:00 - [119] Do the people who helped the GMs find these guys get rewarded or was this CCP solo work? EVE-Files \| EVE-Search \| Get Email if thread updates

Aelius	Posted - 2005.06.24 23:16:00 - [120] Hey Wrangler, Since they selled the isk can i have their stuff? Selling Raven BPC ME20 3M at Yulai 1st Station
The Shuffle	Posted - 2005.06.24 23:19:00 - [121] hahahaha you didnt get me!
Zarquon Beeblebrox	Posted - 2005.06.24 23:21:00 - [122] Well done. And lets hope even more isk sellers and macro miners are busted and banned for their actions to ruin our game. -- Lady Beeblebrox Teddybears: Forum - movies
Mari Y'Tuk	Posted - 2005.06.24 23:28:00 - [123] character names are a legal alias, anmd as such are protected just like a name is. My Production Spreadsheet, Most T1 Bp data, Located here.
Cosmic Dragon	Posted - 2005.06.24 23:41:00 - [124] Originally by: The Shuffle hahahaha you didnt get me! Well considering ccp has all pees info on servers im sure they do now
Ryctor	Posted - 2005.06.24 23:41:00 - [125] Edited by: Ryctor on 24/06/2005 23:41:19 Originally by: Mari Y'Tuk character names are a legal alias, anmd as such are protected just like a name is. Bull****. Please cite your sources.
Gojak	Posted - 2005.06.25 00:01:00 - [126] Good job CCP, It's good to see your trying to keep the game clean. Having said that, what about the stupid idiots who bought all the ISK that made it worth running such a big operation, what do they get? Warnings, Bans or what else? Thorjak Currently on extended Holiday
Ryctor	Posted - 2005.06.25 00:02:00 - [127] I still dont see the problem letting the general eve population know the CHARACTER names of these cheating *******s. Lots of other games do it. UO did it for a bit. CAL league posts cheaters on a weekly basis. Punkbuster's admins run a global ban list site for game that use their anti-cheat software. Like I said before, I'm with josh. Post their toons names and let the rest of EvE know who the lame asses are that fence ISK on ebay.
Face Lifter	Posted - 2005.06.25 00:04:00 - [128] Quote: I think this is all the right decision, revealing the name makes no difference, I cant see CCP making this up, if they said they banned 80 accounts, then Im sure they banned 80 accounts. people only want to know the names to be nosey and interfering. You know a society is getting itself into serious trouble when people at the top start thinking like this. Limiting what people know just because somebody doesn't think the knowledge will benefit them is another step towards oppression. The most successful countries of the world have always been the ones with least restrictions on information. And the most worst of them all have been the ones with most severe restrictions. It is always tempting to silence those who disagree with you. But the important lesson people should have learned by now is that those disagreements are needed for progress, and to keep things fair and balanced. Limiting discussions and restricting information based on what someone up there thinks you "don't really need to know" is very bad. heh Sorry for not being more eloquent, but you get my point.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.06.25 00:35:00 - [129] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 25/06/2005 00:37:13 Originally by: Joshua Calvert We're not asking for real names. Account names in a computer game have no place in any legal proceedings, surely? Unfortunately, the legal precidents on this are clear. If someone has a name in a game which can be linked elsewhere on the web to personal information.. UO stopped doing it abruptly and for good reason. You REALLY don't need to know. It's cause CCP problems, and for no good reason. And Ryctor? Punkbuster would be a good example if it wasn't an invasive, inaccurate piece of spyware crap I'll NEVER let anywhere near my PC. Say NO to target painters
Galk	Posted - 2005.06.25 01:00:00 - [130] Originally by: Mari Y'Tuk character names are a legal alias, anmd as such are protected just like a name is. Absolute rot. If it were the case id have grounds to have taken legal action against ccp. ------------------------
Wrangler	Posted - 2005.06.25 01:04:00 - [131] It doesn't matter if there are or aren't legal things regarding character names, CCP will not release them anyway. It's been the policy for a lot of years, it is a good policy for many reasons, and it will not change. Oh, and just for the record, this is a game, this is a privately owned site. This is not a country. Some people seem to have a tendency to mix the two up. [Read the Rules!] - [Email the Moderators]
Galk	Posted - 2005.06.25 01:17:00 - [132] Originally by: Wrangler Oh, and just for the record, this is a game, this is a privately owned site. Unfortunatley this is the case, sigh alas it can be used as a platform, while rules are in place to protect people from using this platform as a means of deforming ones character, as in the alias and obviously the person behind it, in the terms apon which and every one of us agreed upon. You ofcourse would expect these rules to be adirred to in there entirety. ------------------------
w0rmy	Posted - 2005.06.25 01:37:00 - [133] Originally by: Wrangler Oh, and just for the record, this is a game, this is a privately owned site. This is not a country. Some people seem to have a tendency to mix the two up. Which is still mandated by countrys laws.
Balistic Void	Posted - 2005.06.25 01:39:00 - [134] Whilst I applaud this action by CCP I have certain reservations... Is this action a smokescreen to hide the _REAL_ economic problems this game is experiencing? The ebaying (whilst horrid in that it changes the spirit of the game: SOE etc) has little economic impact. As other people have said before, the ebaying doesn't create/destroy isk and thus makes no ingame difference to the rest of us unbanned plebs (disclaimer: see aforementioned parenthesised statement). These days I make my humble isk with little effort (I am too lazy to stripmine the abundant crokite we sit on). People buy 'normal' named shield hardeners for 5 million on the open market ditrigonal/non-inertial etc). This was not the case a few months ago. This is only one example, there are many more. And it isn't people accidentally clicking buy, it's a trend. There are too many people with way too much money. Level 4 missions have ruined this game, and I sincerely hope things aren't too far gone. Flame on...
H0ot	Posted - 2005.06.25 02:04:00 - [135] "Level 4 missions have ruined this game, and I sincerely hope things aren't too far gone. Flame on..." Agreed, and it worries me to think CCP have said they won't do anything about mission balance until the next major update (Kali?) Meanwhile EVE is becoming Counterstrike in space more and more.. Why not just add a "respawn" button that gives you your ship/items/implants back on death, because its basically the same thing as L4's.
Face Lifter	Posted - 2005.06.25 03:03:00 - [136] Originally by: Maya Rkell Unfortunately, the legal precidents on this are clear. If someone has a name in a game which can be linked elsewhere on the web to personal information.. UO stopped doing it abruptly and for good reason. You REALLY don't need to know. It's cause CCP problems, and for no good reason. What happened in case of UO? I'm curious about the details. How come I am free to know the in game name of you and everyone else who posts here, but not some guy who got banned? If I was a hacker out to steal people's real names from some game server, why would you protect the names of those bad people but not the names of everyone who posts here? I fail to see the logic
Face Lifter	Posted - 2005.06.25 03:16:00 - [137] Originally by: Wrangler It doesn't matter if there are or aren't legal things regarding character names, CCP will not release them anyway. It's been the policy for a lot of years, it is a good policy for many reasons, and it will not change. What are the good reasons you speak of? I am criticizing current policy because I don't see those good reasons. It could be an issue of personal preferences, like when something can go either way without making any difference. But in case of information, it's always better to keep information free, no matter how useless it may seem to someone. Oh, and the point of my analogy about information freedom in countries was not to compare EVE to a county, jeez. The point was to compare communities and the rules that govern them, the effect of such rules.
DARTHEXIDOUS	Posted - 2005.06.25 03:50:00 - [138] Well done CCP. Shame you cant impliment some sort of new concord ship that can pickup on macro-miners and gank them thus ridding this scum from game.
Ryctor	Posted - 2005.06.25 03:51:00 - [139] Originally by: Face Lifter What happened in case of UO? I'm curious about the details. From what I remember, Origin stopped publishing the character names of banned players when EA bought them. No one knows the reason WHY, it just stopped all of the sudden.
Basileus	Posted - 2005.06.25 07:14:00 - [140] Hear! Hear!
DeMundus	Posted - 2005.06.25 10:23:00 - [141] Originally by: Wrangler I know that many of you might not always believe us when we say that the GMs actively look for ebayers and other scum of the MMOG world, but here it is! GM Arkanon posted a news item where he tells us they just banned 80 accounts! Please remember that discussing activities that are against the EULA such as ebayers and selling in game items and accounts are not allowed, this post is merely a way for us to let you know that Things Are Being DoneÖ! You can of course report this kind of behavior to the GMs by petitioning in game or Ask A Question on this website. Emailing the moderators will get it forwarded to the GMs, but we prefer if you petition it to them directly. So VOTF is no more? Just joking
Antic	Posted - 2005.06.25 11:55:00 - [142] Originally by: w0rmy Originally by: Wrangler Oh, and just for the record, this is a game, this is a privately owned site. This is not a country. Some people seem to have a tendency to mix the two up. Which is still mandated by countrys laws. Seen this discussion before not only in Eve. Fact is that outside the USA there really isnt that many countries, hosting online game servers, that has laws that can be aplied on a virtual property base like this. And many people tend to forget that said online games and the countries they are hostid in are NOT the USA :) For the record, legaly you do not own your character, you dont own jack in eve. You rent it from CCP.
JimmySav	Posted - 2005.06.25 12:54:00 - [143] Well done CCP. I for one was appalled when i first heard about selling things from REAL money on Ebay etc. Its a game, and the minute real money comes into it, fun is at risk, and so is trust... Keep up the good work. Jim'll Fix it For You. ( and you and you!)
Allen Deckard	Posted - 2005.06.25 13:57:00 - [144] Hmm will we see a massive rise in the cost of trit? How much trit did 80 24hr/day add to the market? will be interesting to find out.
Neon CEO	Posted - 2005.06.25 13:59:00 - [145] Not checked information but one person who wasn't involved in ISK trading and was yesterday banned.In a stressful condition he got drunk and it has gone by his car, now he is in a hospital reanimation branch.I know it just a game but I think CCP should to check closely instead to ban even those who is not guilty.
Hassis	Posted - 2005.06.25 14:35:00 - [146] thumbs up real money should not influence on game UA Industry :: We produce frags
HUGO DRAX	Posted - 2005.06.25 15:36:00 - [147] Isk buyers/sellers attract a different kind of player. Those whose sole purpose is to have the most toys in the game and not put any effort into it. Those kind of players add nothing to the game. Folks who bought from those 80 should also be banned.
Gwarnina	Posted - 2005.06.25 16:25:00 - [148] Interesting that someone brought up online sweatshops where poor kids slave away for ebayers. Reminded me of a Cory Doctorow short story, Anda's game. Makes an excellent reading. (No registration required if you choose the site pass).
Wrangler	Posted - 2005.06.25 16:40:00 - [149] We will not discuss specific cases here, wether you happen to know anyone or not. If a person who was banned feels that he or she didn't do anything wrong he is welcome to contact the GMs about it. This is still a matter between the GMs and the player(s) they banned, and quite frankly, it's not anyone else's business. [Read the Rules!] - [Email the Moderators]
takegami1	Posted - 2005.06.25 17:31:00 - [150] Originally by: Wrangler We will not discuss specific cases here, wether you happen to know anyone or not. If a person who was banned feels that he or she didn't do anything wrong he is welcome to contact the GMs about it. This is still a matter between the GMs and the player(s) they banned, and quite frankly, it's not anyone else's business. All this is remarkable but your employees do not answer petitions of those who is in banne concerning this case. And even if then they will answer that there will pass a plenty of time and training of skills to stop. As many at present it is valid not guilty people stay now in the suppressed mood personally I in depression from it. I fairly play and for me a shock that char ` s have sent mine in the block. And I think there is no sense to delete posts - a case with that person which you have cleaned - has really occured in Russia and all of us we hope that all will end with this person well.
High'Priestest'Consulate	Posted - 2005.06.25 18:17:00 - [151] Basically whats being said is: (1)Cheat and you will be found out. (2)You cant beat the system on here as theres ways and means of people in the know can look at certain things ingame. (3) What Wrangler said no ones buisness to what people were involved and eve gamers should respect that without constantly asking who the perpitrators are im certainly not bothered myself,you could say after reading this post myself is a warning to those who flaunt the rules.(Underlined is for those of Hard of Understanding)
Wrangler	Posted - 2005.06.25 20:28:00 - [152] Originally by: takegami1 All this is remarkable but your employees do not answer petitions of those who is in banne concerning this case. And even if then they will answer that there will pass a plenty of time and training of skills to stop. As many at present it is valid not guilty people stay now in the suppressed mood personally I in depression from it. I fairly play and for me a shock that char ` s have sent mine in the block. That's not true, if the person who was banned (not his friends) contacts the GMs they will look into it. Obviously it could take some time since it's a job for the senior GMs, and you also have to have a reason for it, meaning don't waste their time if you're guilty. Second, don't believe everything people tell you, the GMs can make mistakes, but in cases where the result is that they ban someone they will look into it very carefully first. And considering good real life friends have ripped each other off in MMOGs in the past, your friends might just not be telling you the truth. Originally by: High'Priestest'Consulate Basically whats being said is: (1)Cheat and you will be found out. (2)You cant beat the system on here as theres ways and means of people in the know can look at certain things ingame. (3) What Wrangler said no ones buisness to what people were involved and eve gamers should respect that without constantly asking who the perpitrators are im certainly not bothered myself,you could say after reading this post myself is a warning to those who flaunt the rules.(Underlined is for those of Hard of Understanding) Actually, I think we have to be honest and say that not everyone who breaks the EULA in any way gets caught. A lot does though, and there's a high probability it happens to you if you do something wrong, especially if you do it for some time. However, the policy is to not reveal any details, such as character names, since it is between CCP/SÝmmin and the player involved. Anyone can of course come up with their own arguments for why we should reveal that kind of information, but it won't really do much more than get you a post in this thread. The policy will not change. If you want to waste your time, have fun. [Read the Rules!] - [Email the Moderators]
takegami1	Posted - 2005.06.25 20:53:00 - [153] Edited by: takegami1 on 25/06/2005 20:53:47 Originally by: Wrangler Originally by: takegami1 All this is remarkable but your employees do not answer petitions of those who is in banne concerning this case. And even if then they will answer that there will pass a plenty of time and training of skills to stop. As many at present it is valid not guilty people stay now in the suppressed mood personally I in depression from it. I fairly play and for me a shock that char ` s have sent mine in the block. That's not true, if the person who was banned (not his friends) contacts the GMs they will look into it. Obviously it could take some time since it's a job for the senior GMs, and you also have to have a reason for it, meaning don't waste their time if you're guilty. Edited, please do not discuss bans on the forums, as my post said, contact the GMs - Wrangler
Masken	Posted - 2005.06.25 23:28:00 - [154] Is it true that Oveur has a char in WoW3 that are named Leeroy?? Great work whit those e-bayers .. Masken
Maxine Stirner	Posted - 2005.06.26 03:00:00 - [155] I'm almost as excited about this as when I read about US forces dropping defoliants in Columbia! GMs don't exist without rulebreakers, therefore profiteers rely on GMs to decrease their competition. Good job on your counter revenue assault, you're keeping yourselves in business! You've maintained control over your product and profits! Here's a hearty clap on the back! Go Corporate Iceland! Locking Times & Evil Asteroids
Naal Morno	Posted - 2005.06.26 03:36:00 - [156] Some know me, most don't (anti flame measure here), but: "A: The Devs are looking into the accounts to see if there are any BPOS or like items. If there are, the Devs will work out a fair distribution system." Why?? As far as I know, no T2 BPOs were re-issued for destroyed ones, so why doing this? Your Heavy Neutron Blaster II perfectly strikes Serpentis Chief Sentinel, wrecking for 660.4 damage.
Lorth	Posted - 2005.06.26 07:24:00 - [157] Originally by: Naal Morno Some know me, most don't (anti flame measure here), but: "A: The Devs are looking into the accounts to see if there are any BPOS or like items. If there are, the Devs will work out a fair distribution system." Why?? As far as I know, no T2 BPOs were re-issued for destroyed ones, so why doing this? Because often the people who sell isk, have lots of it. Tech BPO owners are some of the richest people in the game. So conecting the dots, we can assume that many of these people were owners of tech 2 BPO's. Going further, I know there are certain BPO's where one or two individuals have a large portion of them. So if one of these people were banned... well you do the rest.
ollobrains	Posted - 2005.06.26 09:06:00 - [158] Good work CCP - on another front if any of those banned accounts had tech 2 BPOs is it possible to reseed them into the game.
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2005.06.26 09:17:00 - [159] If the tech 2 BPO re-distribution is said to be "fair" then it won't be by the same means as all the other tech 2 BPO's were released i.e research agents. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
infused	Posted - 2005.06.26 09:58:00 - [160] Wow guys... leave it be... [World Domination]
Maxine Stirner	Posted - 2005.06.26 11:02:00 - [161] Originally by: infused Wow guys... leave it be... Why? Must we be cheerleaders for them as well as attempt to be part of the community? I've never been a sycophant in my life. I've walked away from countless jobs because of this. It's called self respect. It's called being honest. It's called trying to be a member of an emerging and strikingly valid form of community. If I played a game and wrote about it elsewhere, and it was bad, I would tell them all of it's flaws as well as it's good points, even if that entailed the developer's corporatist politics. Why should I have to lie just to be a part of that community? CCP are essentially bragging about exercising their complete monopoly of control over the playerbase and information. It's like they're running their own little private Carceral in order to achieve their perfect commercial eden. Sometimes I find their words and actions to be creepy. The art of EVE I like, the community of EVE I like. The game owners are not responsible or creditable for the likable virtues of the community. There are a few cheerleaders (not all) in this room that are happy about these actions for entirely racist or at least xenophobic reasons. Read through the comments yourself if you don't believe me. Also, I don't hear anything about buyers being pilloried by the community. Personally, I don't buy and sell anything in a game because 1) I don't need to, 2)I'm too busy playing or talking to people. Yeah yeah. It's just somebody's property and they can do whatever the hell they want with it right? Just like everything in my country has a price tag on it. Therefore, when one of my friends obeys some historically or biologically normative impulse, and some corporation's profits fluctuate infinitismally by it, it's OK that they get locked in a little cage because that violation was of some conventional rather than natural abstraction enforced by whomever has the most power or guns. Nozick, Rawls, and John Locke, I think would all find a unique yet similar set of problems with this violation of the common good. Any real philosopher on property tends to find faults as well. Just because somebody can do what they want and noone can stop them doesn't mean you have to applaud them for it. Ebaying doesn't hurt me, it doesn't hurt you, it's a victimless "crime" against property. I don't see the same penalty being applied against isk buyers. If CCP want's to claim they are doing it to protect the community rather than themselves.. well then they need to be reminded that they sure as hell aren't doing it with my blessings. It's their profits and theirs alone. As far as I am concerned, they are being perfectly hypocritical in this regard. Swaggering around doesn't glamourize their behaviour in my eyes. Their actions may just be a microcosm or caricature of real problems, but it is still wrong. If it is a problem represented in art and shared by a community, even a tremendously alienated community, it is simply that much easier for society's biting gnats to point out. So please excuse me as I wave some black and red pompoms over this disturbing spectacle. I don't enjoy it, but not all moral obligations and duties are enjoyable. Am I going overboard with this? No. I'm just making a brief anarchical essai on a forum. That's almost nothing at all. Think or scribble all the nasty adhominem bs you've been trained to.. you're not going to undermine my obsession and devotion to the emergence of community whereever it attempts to show itself, or to the disparagement of conventional and pointless abstractions. Locking Times & Evil Asteroids
Larno	Posted - 2005.06.26 11:08:00 - [162] A legitimate, CCP-run system for buying and selling items for rl cash will NEVER work, due to the culture of stealing and backstabbing within the game. It would literally be like stealing someone's paycheck.
Sokudo	Posted - 2005.06.26 11:26:00 - [163] Actually, it's not victim-less... it hurts all the guys in this game who play by the rules... they work hard and put in their hours, but because others are getting more money and more resources than them through not needing to, are being left behind - one example I can think of is a PVP corp buying through e-bay... it would free up their members to concentrate purely on combat and not on making money or gathering resources. Not something I'd like to see personally. I just feel sorry for those of us who are potentially affected through losing business partners or CEOs and don't even know if they're banned or if something's happened to them in Real Life.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.06.26 11:43:00 - [164] Originally by: Naal Morno Some know me, most don't (anti flame measure here), but: "A: The Devs are looking into the accounts to see if there are any BPOS or like items. If there are, the Devs will work out a fair distribution system." Why?? As far as I know, no T2 BPOs were re-issued for destroyed ones, so why doing this? Untrue. Whena T2 BPO is destroyed another one is issued to keep supply up. "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted."
Nyphur	Posted - 2005.06.26 11:56:00 - [165] It's about bloody time. However, the ahrder the GMs push, the further away they will push the ISK-sellers to the point where they start using legitimate characters to do the trades and those trades will be indistinguishable from legitimate ones. If I were trading ISK, I'd bet nobody in Eve would realise because I can think of a few discrete ways to do it and if I can think of those, so can the sellers. I'm wondering what limitations are placed on the activity. Would they check transaction logs dating back to the start of the character and ban everyone he's traded with? What if the character bought ISK once two years ago and had entirely forgotten about it and never done it since? Surely there should be some kind of limitation to give people a second chance and it's the repeat offenders and the sellers who really need to be stopped, not the people who bought the ISK once in a while. And do the GMs have access to transaction logs from characters which have been deleted, perhaps trial accounts? That would help identify people using the system so it seems like a pretty useful tool to have, if they can be given it.
Jim Steele	Posted - 2005.06.26 12:05:00 - [166] Originally by: Nyphur IWhat if the character bought ISK once two years ago and had entirely forgotten about it and never done it since? Surely there should be some kind of limitation to give people a second chance and it's the repeat offenders and the sellers who really need to be stopped, not the people who bought the ISK once in a while. As far as im aware buying isk for cash is still against the same rules that govern this game, thus should be banned, but i agree its the sellers that need to be stoped and often the best way to do this is to stop the buyers. I mean if there is no demand, people cant make money off it, scare tactics work!! if no-one buys e-bay isk then no-one will bother selling it. Real men, play Rugby
dreddish	Posted - 2005.06.26 12:11:00 - [167] I am ignorant to the problem after reading 9 pages - nor have i thought about it in any depth, what problems does sellin ships/isk/accounts on ebay cause? i always thought it was good that a kid could earn a few bucks playing games?? or a kid in china/eastern eurpoe could earn the same as his father in a few hours as he could in a month !!
Cocytus	Posted - 2005.06.26 12:39:00 - [168] Originally by: dreddish I am ignorant to the problem after reading 9 pages - nor have i thought about it in any depth, what problems does sellin ships/isk/accounts on ebay cause? i always thought it was good that a kid could earn a few bucks playing games?? or a kid in china/eastern eurpoe could earn the same as his father in a few hours as he could in a month !! Ignorant is an understatement. The problem is not "little Timmy" from wherever. Its the people that do it in large scale. Timmy isnt using 80-ish accounts to make his extra $. I do however see the problem in selling gamestuff (money, items characters) for real money, and I support CCP in this question. Everyone agrees to the EULA, we all play by the same rules. If you cant do that, and I quote Eddie Murphy on this one, "Get the fu** out". Keep those isk, items and character sellers out of here. Less lag for everyone. /Cocytus ============================================== Cocytus, the ninth circle of hell. (\_/) (O.o) (> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domina
dreddish	Posted - 2005.06.26 15:05:00 - [169] let me re-phrase my question in that case...what are the problems with a call centre in eastern europe employing 80 staff to mine/hunt and sell for real cash ?
Khatred	Posted - 2005.06.26 15:20:00 - [170] It's against the EULA, pure and simple. It's pros and cons are a totaly different topic, and I am for a limited allowance but CCP made the game, CCP makes the rules.
Famine Aligher'ri	Posted - 2005.06.26 18:48:00 - [171] Dear god man, some of the replies in this thread are really sad. I sure hope you guys arn't running my country in the future laugh. Famine Aligher'ri, of The Aligher'ri
Ruad	Posted - 2005.06.26 20:15:00 - [172] Well if you guys realy want to get them, do a goggle search for eve isk, buy some off website and ban everyone and anyone involved with the person and the transfer of the isk. If they use alt to transfer cash just look in account journal you can eventualy find the person that is the real money man, like a 1 bil isk zero trade deposit. With the journal you could probable figure out everyone quickly.
Dianabolic	Posted - 2005.06.26 21:29:00 - [173] Wrangler, my dear boy, first of all may I say: Woot to you and the GM team, those who bring RL in to our game are a scurge and should be purged from all the 0's and1's involved. Finally, may I say: Can I have their stuff?
Wrangler	Posted - 2005.06.26 21:46:00 - [174] Originally by: Dianabolic Finally, may I say: Can I have their stuff? I already asked if I could have it, CCP was strangley uncooperative.. [Read the Rules!] - [Email the Moderators]
Alerce	Posted - 2005.06.26 22:18:00 - [175] country laws>eula. But, if ingame items is income, then i would have to pay taxes over them. EEK, so in this case, i rather have the eula :)
Domalais	Posted - 2005.06.26 22:34:00 - [176] Originally by: Maxine Stirner Also, I don't hear anything about buyers being pilloried by the community. Personally, I don't buy and sell anything in a game because 1) I don't need to, 2)I'm too busy playing or talking to people. Buyers are harder to find than sellers. Originally by: Maxine Stirner Yeah yeah. It's just somebody's property and they can do whatever the hell they want with it right? It's CCP's property, not the account holder. This is specifically stated in the EULA. Originally by: Maxine Stirner Just because somebody can do what they want and noone can stop them doesn't mean you have to applaud them for it. Ebaying doesn't hurt me, it doesn't hurt you, it's a victimless "crime" against property. Incorrect. The buying and selling of isk for money decreases the purchasing power of isk ingame artificially, while increasing its value. It encourages teams of people to perform the task that is most isk-producing, and then sell that ISK for real currency. This decreases the in-game purchasing ability of other players, because they simply do not have the ability to sit all day making ISK with 12 characters. So what is their only option? To buy isk from these sellers, if they want to be able to purchase anything of value ingame. Those who do not purchase isk will be unable to compete, from both a market view and a PVP view. Originally by: Maxine Stirner Think or scribble all the nasty adhominem bs you've been trained to.. you're not going to undermine my obsession and devotion to the emergence of community whereever it attempts to show itself, or to the disparagement of conventional and pointless abstractions. The developers of this game are encourage the growth of a healthy and happy community. If some bad eggs need to be discarded to do this, then fine. All you are doing is defending up those whose actions would destroy the community that already exists.
Balistic Void	Posted - 2005.06.26 23:34:00 - [177] Edited by: Balistic Void on 26/06/2005 23:34:43 omg Dianabolic did they not catch you!?
Naal Morno	Posted - 2005.06.26 23:37:00 - [178] Quote: Incorrect. The buying and selling of isk for money decreases the purchasing power of isk ingame artificially, while increasing its value. It encourages teams of people to perform the task that is most isk-producing, and then sell that ISK for real currency. This decreases the in-game purchasing ability of other players, because they simply do not have the ability to sit all day making ISK with 12 characters. So what is their only option? To buy isk from these sellers, if they want to be able to purchase anything of value ingame. Those who do not purchase isk will be unable to compete, from both a market view and a PVP view. I would only want to remark that mentioned activities, eg. afk/macro mining bring EXACTLY 0 new ISK into game, unless sold to NPCs, which I doubt is happening . Therefore no shift in purchasing power takes place. In old days, chaining NPCs was the very activity you just described and some people were doing it on macro. This was bringing new ISK into game. Some got banned for it, CCP fixed rats, old story. Your Heavy Neutron Blaster II perfectly strikes Serpentis Chief Sentinel, wrecking for 660.4 damage.
w0rmy	Posted - 2005.06.27 00:10:00 - [179] All I really got to say... be greatfull CCP A: Does anything about this kind of thing B: Bothered to tell us at all this happened. Who it happened too, big deal, move on.
Domalais	Posted - 2005.06.27 00:18:00 - [180] Edited by: Domalais on 27/06/2005 00:19:40 Originally by: Naal Morno I would only want to remark that mentioned activities, eg. afk/macro mining bring EXACTLY 0 new ISK into game, unless sold to NPCs, which I doubt is happening . Therefore no shift in purchasing power takes place. In a capitalistic market, it doesn't matter how much money you make. It matters how much money you make in comparison to how much money everyone else is making. If your income is held constant while the income of others increases, you purchasing power decreases.
DarkStar251	Posted - 2005.06.27 00:29:00 - [181] Edited by: DarkStar251 on 27/06/2005 00:30:25 Originally by: Antic Edited by: Antic on 25/06/2005 11:58:48 Originally by: w0rmy Originally by: Wrangler Oh, and just for the record, this is a game, this is a privately owned site. This is not a country. Some people seem to have a tendency to mix the two up. Which is still mandated by countrys laws. Seen this discussion before not only in Eve. Fact is that outside the USA there really isnt that many countries, hosting online game servers, that has laws that can be aplied on a virtual property base like this. And many people tend to forget that said online games and the countries they are hostid in are NOT the USA and thus do not abide under US law no matter that americans play it :) For the record, legaly you do not own your character, you dont own jack in eve. You rent it from CCP. And if you do not abide by the End user licence agreement they got the right to terminate the rental contract with you. Time invested isnt an argument cus its still just ones and zeros you rented on a CCP server. If you go sell said things for your own RL profit you are selling stuff that isnt yours to begin with as of said agreement. Thank god! Sick of americans assuming thier laws and constitution applies to the whole world. While I dont know anything about Icelandic law, Tranq is hosted here in the UK, and I'd LOVE to see someone try this whole 'omg slander of mah ingame name' ****e on in a british court :)
w0rmy	Posted - 2005.06.27 00:44:00 - [182] Originally by: Antic Edited by: Antic on 25/06/2005 11:58:48 Originally by: w0rmy Originally by: Wrangler Oh, and just for the record, this is a game, this is a privately owned site. This is not a country. Some people seem to have a tendency to mix the two up. Which is still mandated by countrys laws. Seen this discussion before not only in Eve. Fact is that outside the USA there really isnt that many countries, hosting online game servers, that has laws that can be aplied on a virtual property base like this. And many people tend to forget that said online games and the countries they are hostid in are NOT the USA and thus do not abide under US law no matter that americans play it :) For the record, legaly you do not own your character, you dont own jack in eve. You rent it from CCP. And if you do not abide by the End user licence agreement they got the right to terminate the rental contract with you. Time invested isnt an argument cus its still just ones and zeros you rented on a CCP server. If you go sell said things for your own RL profit you are selling stuff that isnt yours to begin with as of said agreement. For the record, I am not in the USA, I am in New Zealand. And for the record, ANY service, be it real or virtual, sold to me, as a New Zealand resident, purchasing the service, in New Zealand, is still accountable to New Zealand trade laws. The Commerce Commision here, can still, place a restraint of trade against CCP, and prevent then for selling this service in New Zealand should they breech our Fair Trading act. I personally dont have a problem with CCP and the service I purchase from them, but implying they do not have to abide by our laws, is not 100% true.
JaegerX	Posted - 2005.06.27 03:05:00 - [183] I just think its weird that some people here think the IKS sellers were just a bunch of teenagers "making an extra buck". As I understand from the news item, they uncovered a VIRTUAL CRIME SYNDICATE. This tells me that the guys behind the "crime ring" are part of organized crime, and if you think isk selling is their only source of income, you better think again. Nice to know that the dollars you paid for some game currency is being used to smuggle enslaved teenage prostitutes to wherever by whatever mafia. THIS IS NOT JUST ABOUT THE EVE COMMUNITY AND REVENUE. As soon as real moneys enter the eqation, there are real life consequesnses, whatever they may be.
Tiberius Caesar	Posted - 2005.06.27 03:13:00 - [184] Originally by: JaegerX Nice to know that the dollars you paid for some game currency is being used to smuggle enslaved teenage prostitutes to wherever by whatever mafia. Drama Queen
Bhaal	Posted - 2005.06.27 13:04:00 - [185] Good job CCP. However, I think the names should be released once it is determined 100% that the characters & accounts were being used to sell in-game items for real $. There should be a grace period between the time of banning and the release of names so that mistakes can be taken care of b4 someone gets a bad rap, undeservedly. The names should be released. Privacy shmivacy, they are only characters names; you are not divulging any RL personal data. There should be an EVE banned board. Name of character and bannable offense next to their name. Because someone might know who their alts are from a different account, and that account may be the beneficiary in some way, so they should get banned as well... Release the names plz... ------------------------------------------------ "for piece sakes!"
Tobiaz	Posted - 2005.06.27 13:58:00 - [186] Stop complaining about CCP not making the names public. It's no use anyway. It are mostly the people with even less imaginative names then you can get from the hotmail random name generator. It's not like they are prominent players in the Eve community. These people don't hoard all the ISK to buy ships to blow them up, they exchange it for RL currency and other then that they don't play the game. If you're that curious to who where banned, ask the orethieves because they suddenly will have A LOT more trouble finding macrominers (preferrably called 'AFK jetcan miners' :P ). As for this being only a minor setback for these people, I doubt it. Yes it would only be a small blow if only the moneymakers were banned, but it's not unlikely that also the accounts functioning as stashes for all the stuff to be sold got banned as well. Just follow the money. One more thing though, I think at least in lonetrek the result of the disappearence of all the macroers starts to be noticable. 2 weeks ago there were still lots of big sell orders of trit below 3 isk/unit, and now there are none. Hate them or love them, I don't care, but they WERE keeping the price of low level minerals down, since there are few other miners left who can mine in similar quantities a week. Spacerats recruiting!
Eraza	Posted - 2005.06.27 14:00:00 - [187] another thing i am very concerned about.. limited edition items, being in posession of permabanned players... like for excample the opux luxury yacht.. afaik there is only one in exsitance now, and it sits in the hangar of a guy that has been permabanned.. more then that, i hear it was put there AFTER said player got banned it has for a long long time been a wet dream of mine, to own that ship.. but now it's compleately impossible for me to even see it, outside of old screenshots.. what would be so wrong, or problematic, for concord to auction off limited edition items, that sit in the hangars of characters that have been banned permanently? --- return the mines! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=190321&page=1
Matthew	Posted - 2005.06.27 14:46:00 - [188] Originally by: Maxine Stirner Just because somebody can do what they want and noone can stop them doesn't mean you have to applaud them for it. Ebaying doesn't hurt me, it doesn't hurt you, it's a victimless "crime" against property. What it does is redistribute wealth within the game based on out-of-game earning power. If you can't see how that ruins the whole incentive model and balance within the game, then maybe you should think on basic economics and game design as well as philosophy. The sort of Eve that would allow ebaying is the sort of eve that says instead of playing the game for an hour to make the isk for that new toy, just do an hour's overtime at RL work and buy the toys off e-bay. Or that it doesn't matter how industrious and organised one alliance is, if an opposing alliance has a few rich players to bankroll them. Competing in eve should be about who is better at playing the game, not how good a job you have in RL. Originally by: Naal Morno I would only want to remark that mentioned activities, eg. afk/macro mining bring EXACTLY 0 new ISK into game, unless sold to NPCs, which I doubt is happening . Therefore no shift in purchasing power takes place. Sure, macro-mining brings 0 new isk into the game, but it does have several effects: 1) Mineral prices are lower than they otherwise would be, so miners become comparatively poorer than other professions. 2) It distributes the isk (and thus the purchasing power) to those who have the RL money to afford it, rather than those who have the ability to earn it in-game. This breaks every profession. Surely it would be the ultimate nerf to 0.0 earning power if I could buy more isk with 1 hour of RL overtime than you could make in 1 hours 0.0 activity.
Mangold	Posted - 2005.06.27 15:21:00 - [189] Well done. Isk and RL money dont mix.
Nomen Nescio	Posted - 2005.06.27 15:35:00 - [190] Edited by: Nomen Nescio on 27/06/2005 15:36:22 Among all that cheers, i just want to note that 80 accounts is a lot. And i really really wish that all that 80 instances were INVESTIGATED and no innocent folks got banned. Because I heard that some people got offers for a "simple" isk transactions and item moves. And rumors also said that it were "ebayers" trying to move the assets around to avoid direct link between them and the buyers. Alhough I never actually saw it myself and cant get any specific details, I just want to point out that before any1 gets banned an accurate investigation of facts and details should be done. Otherwise, quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
takegami1	Posted - 2005.06.27 17:00:00 - [191] Why to those of whom banned 4 day do not answer. We protest and you are silent. Game already became deprived of civil rights? GM ` s manage an arbitrariness for the blessing that who it pays bribes?
Slaveabuser	Posted - 2005.06.27 18:11:00 - [192] Am I the ONLY one who wants to know what character got banned? I know a few, but it would be nice to get a full list. Cant see any harm in that,
Corvus Dove	Posted - 2005.06.27 18:40:00 - [193] Edited by: Corvus Dove on 27/06/2005 18:43:20 What really bothers me about this thread is that CCP did something that was incredibily good for both them and every single legitimate player in the game. And the same people who *** about CCP not giving them stuff back for X reason and doesn't do enough for the customers are the ones who now * that CCP is doing too much, too far for the game without naming names and risking violating individual countries' laws (internet-provided services are often subject to laws within the sovreignties for which they provide service; the USA had a bill in the House that actually named individual items in games like Everquest or EVE as actual property of the player, but this, in a rare act of governmental wisdom, was crushed and instead considered addressed in the EULA for games). Reading over the entirety of the thread, you can easily make your judgement on who has something worth contributing to EVE by the lineup. And a good guess on who hasn't been busted yet for doing some ISK selling themselves. "You Griefer!!!" = "You Doodyhead!!!"**
takegami1	Posted - 2005.06.27 18:47:00 - [194] Originally by: Slaveabuser Am I the ONLY one who wants to know what character got banned? I know a few, but it would be nice to get a full list. Cant see any harm in that, I too would like to know the full list. Here mine characters: 1. Burgui - PVP fighter - sat in empire and beat NPC pirates. 2. Irulan Korrino - PVP fighter - sat and trained skills all time from the moment of a birth anything more not being engaged. 3. takegami - industrial and resercher - worked on agents in empire. All characters have very small quantity of cashes (isk) since all that they earned always then went on war. I practically did not play last time any of them - only came to switch skills. And if to check up balance that it becomes visible that at me and the sums large pass that very seldom. Unless such characters can trade isk? When they even to earn normally not can. Under last data have most of all blocked people from Russia is smells as a racial discrimination - and quite probably we should resort to proceeding if will not return all on the places and to not apologize before us.
Corvus Dove	Posted - 2005.06.27 19:17:00 - [195] Originally by: takegami1 Originally by: Slaveabuser Am I the ONLY one who wants to know what character got banned? I know a few, but it would be nice to get a full list. Cant see any harm in that, I too would like to know the full list. Here mine characters: 1. Burgui - PVP fighter - sat in empire and beat NPC pirates. 2. Irulan Korrino - PVP fighter - sat and trained skills all time from the moment of a birth anything more not being engaged. 3. takegami - industrial and resercher - worked on agents in empire. All characters have very small quantity of cashes (isk) since all that they earned always then went on war. I practically did not play last time any of them - only came to switch skills. And if to check up balance that it becomes visible that at me and the sums large pass that very seldom. Unless such characters can trade isk? When they even to earn normally not can. Under last data have most of all blocked people from Russia is smells as a racial discrimination - and quite probably we should resort to proceeding if will not return all on the places and to not apologize before us. Umm....Russian is not a race any more than American is a religion (though it's been feeling like one over here lately). If you were unjustly spanked, you'd be handling it privately with CCP. If you're looking for public exposure, you're likely an ISKselling EQ2daddy. "You Griefer!!!" = "You Doodyhead!!!"
kieron	Posted - 2005.06.27 19:20:00 - [196] For reasons of privacy, CCP is not going to release the names of players that were banned. This has been a matter of policy for not only CCP, but the majority of other game companies in the industry. Debates over legality, a so called "right to know", and any other justifications in favor of releasing the names are not pertinent. Further off-topic discussion regarding the release of names will result in this thread being locked. kieron Community Manager, EVE Online
Bazzaye	Posted - 2005.06.27 19:37:00 - [197] /me applauds GM's I will personally deliver one box of cookies to iceland so ccp can distirbute cookies en masse to every single gm for every account banned! and a cuddly toy for every 100 accounts!! /me hugs gm's good show chaps!
takegami1	Posted - 2005.06.27 20:35:00 - [198] I see that many messages which leave do not arrange GM ` s but which specify their mistakes in this case. I wish to note that we do print screens all messages.
Corvus Dove	Posted - 2005.06.27 21:22:00 - [199] Originally by: takegami1 I see that many messages which leave do not arrange GM ` s but which specify their mistakes in this case. I wish to note that we do print screens all messages. CCP made EVE. Therefore, in EVE, CCP = God. Of course, one might ask, "What does God need with a Starship? Or 10000 of them?" but that's not relevant. You're essentially telling God that Sodom and Gemorrah was a bad idea. If one were to do this, it wouldn't prevent these two cities from being reduced to ashes and it certainly wouldn't prevent God from throwing holy fireballs of obliteration when he's annoyed (read, whine whine whine, you'll still get banned for selling ISK). All you can do is renounce your faith (read, stop paying for EVE) but then whatever God your God would be just stops giving you benefits (read, your skeezer-arse can't play no mo). Wouldn't hurt God, wouldn't hurt CCP. Now if they started banning/fireballing everyone in EVE whose name starts with the letter J, we'd have an issue with the player base, but as it stands, well done. "You Griefer!!!" = "You Doodyhead!!!"
s4mp3r0r	Posted - 2005.06.27 22:01:00 - [200] [gloomy remarks due to experience] finally ? Weren't there topics about macro miners more than a year ago (i know because i posted in that topic) that weren't looked at for well... 6-9 months (or more)??? Char names like abaddon[number] and christy commander something. I added these after a long winded topic about the GM's not doing anything about it, even hunted them with a guy who posted in that topic. I had some of them in my buddy list and that logged on for sooooo long i removed them from my buddylist. Congrats i guess........... 80 accounts out of ???? is a good start ? EVE is inflated how much because this ran out of proportion (and CCP only reacting now??) We will never know as CCP never gives us numbers. 80 could even be a fictional number. [end of gloomy remarks] [happy note] Good to see someone helps to improve the game.
Baldour Ngarr	Posted - 2005.06.27 22:09:00 - [201] Originally by: Mangold Well done. Isk and RL money dont mix. They do mix, and will continue to do so, albeit illegally. Look at the trade in illegal goods in the real world; because it's illegal, there are huge difficulties in getting your supply to your customers. But all that means is, the supply is reduced; the demand remains constant. Ergo, the price goes up. The price going up makes it worthwhile taking the risk of breaking the law. Kudos to CCP for trying to purify their game. But they won't, and CAN'T, succeed in doing so. _______ "Soon" is an ancient Icelandic word meaning "some time before the next Ice Age."
Shamis Orzoz	Posted - 2005.06.27 22:12:00 - [202] Awesome work guys. Banning ebayers protects those of us that actually want to "play" eve.
Wrangler	Posted - 2005.06.27 22:22:00 - [203] Originally by: s4mp3r0r [gloomy remarks due to experience] finally ? Weren't there topics about macro miners more than a year ago (i know because i posted in that topic) that weren't looked at for well... 6-9 months (or more)??? Char names like abaddon[number] and christy commander something. I added these after a long winded topic about the GM's not doing anything about it, even hunted them with a guy who posted in that topic. I had some of them in my buddy list and that logged on for sooooo long i removed them from my buddylist. Congrats i guess........... 80 accounts out of ???? is a good start ? EVE is inflated how much because this ran out of proportion (and CCP only reacting now??) We will never know as CCP never gives us numbers. 80 could even be a fictional number. [end of gloomy remarks] [happy note] Good to see someone helps to improve the game. This is almost an exact quote of what GM Arkanon said in IRC when this news item was first posted: We ban a lot of people for these things, but this time it was so many we felt like we had to brag a bit. Of course, it's not an exact quote, but fairly accurate. This is not a start, it is not a beginning, and it is not the end. Hunting down these people and banning them goes on a lot, just because they don't happen to tell you every time doesn't mean they're not doing anything. [Read the Rules!] - [Email the Moderators]
NAFnist	Posted - 2005.06.27 22:29:00 - [204] Originally by: kieron Q: They probably have all started up new accounts and are merrily farming ISK again. Is there anything you can do to stop them? A: There are a variety of options available to the GM team to prevent repeat offenses, including an IP ban, banning an IP range, just flat out banning an ISP and much more. I sure hope you're not serious about that one. Banning an entire ISP could hurt alot of innocent players Anyway, good to see that things are acctually being done to counter these scumbags. _____________
Archilies	Posted - 2005.06.28 03:56:00 - [205] I gotta say i have great repect for ccp/ISD, even tho ppl are in wrong ,breach of privacy is till theyr concern, especially wrangler BTW, wrangler can i take u to university with me. i start in september. Im sure they woodnt mind
Maxine Stirner	Posted - 2005.06.28 07:08:00 - [206] You administrating guys are pretty thin-skinned I guess. As Aeschylus would have said, you'll never get any smarter or wiser if you can't stand to suffer a little. It is one thing to exile from your community non-conformists. It is a sadder thing to be happy or even overjoyed about it. If what you say about isk sellers being low wage workers in other countries is true.. then how can you expect people to be overjoyed that they are now unemployed? Sure, our little westernized paradise is now free from whatever influence some of us can presume they had. Way to go fellow first worlders. You're doing a good job preserving the status quo in small, symbolic ways. So you don't want to acknowledge that there is some downside to this culling of non-conformists. Fine. Personally, I don't see how people can live without Pathos. I don't think your actions are wrong, or necessarilly unjust, but taking pleasure in them is unethical, and not humanly admirable. That's all I have to say. You can delete this comment too because it's your right, and a world of hollow rights is apparently all you have left. Unwanted or not, I feel sad for you and the people around you. Locking Times & Evil Asteroids
Jake Amen'Re	Posted - 2005.06.28 08:32:00 - [207] CCP 4TW, in order to protect ppl against cheats, thats ppl who chose to buy isk or, what ever for real money, they need to destroy the source. CCP are in the process of doing this, WELL DONE CCP Play the game according to the rules, or don't play at all. I ain't no killer, but don't push me. Revenge is like the sweetest joy next to getting p***y.
Matthew	Posted - 2005.06.28 09:38:00 - [208] Originally by: Baldour Ngarr Kudos to CCP for trying to purify their game. But they won't, and CAN'T, succeed in doing so. The police won't and can't succeed in catching every single criminal. Does that mean they should stop trying? No human endeavour can ever be perfect, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't make an effort to do as much as we can, and applaud that effort and any success it brings. Originally by: Maxine Stirner If what you say about isk sellers being low wage workers in other countries is true.. then how can you expect people to be overjoyed that they are now unemployed? Sure, our little westernized paradise is now free from whatever influence some of us can presume they had. Way to go fellow first worlders. You're doing a good job preserving the status quo in small, symbolic ways. Eve is an Massively Multiplayer Online Game, not a Massively Multiplayer Online Third-World Employment Agency. Don't get me wrong, poverty sucks, but letting anyone run roughshod over laws, agreements and principles just because they are poor is not the way to handle it. There are plenty of organisations devoted to tackling these issues, but CCP are not one of them, and they probably wouldn't be very good at it if they tried. Transferring your eve subscription fee to one of the organisations tackling poverty would likely do more long-term good to those in need than allowing isk-sweatshops to remain. Originally by: NAFnist Originally by: kieron Q: They probably have all started up new accounts and are merrily farming ISK again. Is there anything you can do to stop them? A: There are a variety of options available to the GM team to prevent repeat offenses, including an IP ban, banning an IP range, just flat out banning an ISP and much more. I sure hope you're not serious about that one. Banning an entire ISP could hurt alot of innocent players I'm pretty sure that's an example of the sort of powers they have avaliable, not necessarily ones they'd choose to use. They're obviously not going to ban everyone on AOL just because a few happen to be bad apples.
Slaveabuser	Posted - 2005.06.28 09:58:00 - [209] Originally by: kieron For reasons of privacy, CCP is not going to release the names of players that were banned. This has been a matter of policy for not only CCP, but the majority of other game companies in the industry. Debates over legality, a so called "right to know", and any other justifications in favor of releasing the names are not pertinent. Surely this cannot apply to ingame character names aswell?
Dahins alt	Posted - 2005.06.28 11:58:00 - [210] ummm, where are the rest of the 10+ pages I could see yesterday?
SinBin	Posted - 2005.06.28 12:08:00 - [211] I see my on topic post went missing. short version: that will get the prices backup for ccp nicly im shure. _______________________________________ Ill Shutup when CCP remove bookmarks
Kane Jacobs	Posted - 2005.06.28 12:15:00 - [212] Death to ebay ! _______________________________________________
dreddish	Posted - 2005.06.28 12:38:00 - [213] i would never buy or sell my precioooous loot/ships or isk for any cash hehe - but this thread does fascinate me - in theory a call centre in india could hunt npc's for one day and earn enough isk to buy 17 tons of rice with those US dollars. With that amount of cash i dont think this is going to go away - it is a multi million $ world market, may be best to embrace and control it, that push it under the carpet.
SinBin	Posted - 2005.06.28 12:54:00 - [214] Edited by: SinBin on 28/06/2005 12:57:53 I aint got no isk to sell on ebay but see i could make a good few quid off all my named items iv hored over time. Now check this out , thats all 1 guy. I dont see way its hard for ccp to find that guy ?. You buy 1 from him at that small cost & then I assume he will use an alt to send it BUT who sent the money to alt & so on till you find the non alt. You can even ask player why we transerd large amounts & any non dodgy player will be happy to answer ?. edit took out a % & add i dont realy see a problem with peeps selling on ebay, you can buy them items ingame also & buying isk can save you mining ratting time if a pure pvper. No way does it hurt eve but only thing I can guest as above is someone didnt like the prices going to low. _______________________________________ Ill Shutup when CCP remove bookmarks
suza	Posted - 2005.06.28 13:38:00 - [215] I have read all of this thread with interest. Personally I play this game for me and my enjoyment and have little conserns for what this group of 80 were up to. Not that I am condoning them, but in my area of game they are completely irrelevant (unless they are part of a Amarr plot against the Matari people, which would not suprise me:)). I have however as a result looked on ebay and have seen the amount of isk and T2 componant for sale and have been wondering. How did they get so rich? and without it being obvious sooner? They clearly have been getting a reasonable number of T2 BPO drops. Does this mean that the so called lottery is fixed, faulty or simply a bad idea? The reason why I ask all of this is because though catching people is one thing, but surely some form of prevention must be better? - Fly Hard, Fly fast for tomorrow is another day for freedom!
Matthew	Posted - 2005.06.28 13:47:00 - [216] Originally by: suza They clearly have been getting a reasonable number of T2 BPO drops. Does this mean that the so called lottery is fixed, faulty or simply a bad idea? Well, assuming the undesirables are a minority in eve, the lottery should be more likely to give a T2 BPO to a legitimate than an undesirable. The trouble is that unless you're willing to convert your career into full time T2 production, it's very tempting just to pocket a multi-billion isk offer for the BPO, and move on with your main career. As you point out, isk is one thing these farmers are not short of, so buying up the BPO's would certainly not be beyond their capability. Originally by: suza How did they get so rich? and without it being obvious sooner? Split that wealth over 80+ chars, and it certainly wouldn't stand out from the crowd.
Nikolai Nuvolari	Posted - 2005.06.28 14:12:00 - [217] On behalf of Gilead's Bullet, I congratulate the GMs on this action. ___________________________________________ ^^^*---All things serve the Beam---*^^^ GDBT is recruiting!
suza	Posted - 2005.06.28 14:51:00 - [218] Originally by: Matthew Originally by: suza They clearly have been getting a reasonable number of T2 BPO drops. Does this mean that the so called lottery is fixed, faulty or simply a bad idea? Well, assuming the undesirables are a minority in eve, the lottery should be more likely to give a T2 BPO to a legitimate than an undesirable. The trouble is that unless you're willing to convert your career into full time T2 production, it's very tempting just to pocket a multi-billion isk offer for the BPO, and move on with your main career. As you point out, isk is one thing these farmers are not short of, so buying up the BPO's would certainly not be beyond their capability. Then surely this indicates that the agent drop system for BPO's is maybe not a wise method. Whilst a cap recharger T2 (for example) has an inflated value of 15 mill it will make the likes of these isk farmers rich enough to sell the currency, and generate the need in some to buy the isk to get the T2 items. If T2 items were only skills led and not isk led then surely it would go someway to do this. I know this comes back to the player led economy arguement again, but people are simply greedy and will get as much as they can. Sadly I loose too many ships to have T2 items so its fairly irrelevant to me - Fly Hard, Fly fast for tomorrow is another day for freedom!
Hella May	Posted - 2005.06.28 14:55:00 - [219] Just be play devils advocate: In a game that emphasises risk vs reward, a number of people play the game to enjoy it and rely in the isk sellers to minimise the risk of using their ships in pvp action. I know there is a very strong argument that you should not fight if you cant afford to, but then whats the point of playing a pvp game if you have to work ya ass off and get no where. People play for escapism not because they have to. Allowing people to buy isk allows them to achieve this escapism rather than have to be poor in a game like real life. I know a huge number of players that use evilbay to pay for their pvp and would lose interest in such things if they cant afford to cover the huge risks and losses. Whilst I totally disagree with people capitalising in RL for peoples love of isk and Eve, perhaps CCP could remove the Ebay isk issue by selling it themselves? Provide the people with a safe and easy way to buy it and remove it from ebays evil grasp. p.s Of course Online games and Real life money mixesà.. We pay ccp to play donÆt we? pps.... well done ccp Let's get this straight, if a girl has to be "rescued" 10 times a week from a brothel shes not a damsel but a prostitute.
Matthew	Posted - 2005.06.28 15:15:00 - [220] Originally by: suza Then surely this indicates that the agent drop system for BPO's is maybe not a wise method. Whilst a cap recharger T2 (for example) has an inflated value of 15 mill it will make the likes of these isk farmers rich enough to sell the currency, and generate the need in some to buy the isk to get the T2 items. If T2 items were only skills led and not isk led then surely it would go someway to do this. By that logic, we should nerf anything that allows you to make large amounts of isk, just in case isk farmers get hold of it. The T2 market isn't just designed for the consumers - it's designed for the producers too. It was always the intention to limit supply so that T2 producers could make decent profits. As such, limiting the BPO's is a must, otherwise the T2 market becomes the T1 market but with more hassle. However these limited BPO's are then distributed, those with huge piles of isk will find people to buy them off. Originally by: Hella May I know there is a very strong argument that you should not fight if you cant afford to, but then whats the point of playing a pvp game if you have to work ya ass off and get no where. People play for escapism not because they have to. Allowing people to buy isk allows them to achieve this escapism rather than have to be poor in a game like real life. Unfortunately, it also allows them to avoid the full range of pvp within the game. PvP is not just jumping in a HAC full of T2 mods and shooting people. Having to find a way to fund your ships and modules is just as much an area of PvP as the combat. If you want pure shooting-things escapism, there are plenty of games out there that are designed to provide this much better than eve. Originally by: Hella May p.s Of course Online games and Real life money mixesà.. We pay ccp to play donÆt we? Yes, but we all pay the same amount to play, and all get exactly the same benefit - access to the game. Paying our subs has no in-game effect other than allowing us to join the game, it gives no-one an advantage over anyone else. That is the difference.
Hella May	Posted - 2005.06.28 15:21:00 - [221] I agree with you Matthew, but the issue that I am wanting to raise is that to some extent it is in CCPÆs benefit for people to buy isk if they wish to. Irrelevant of our views on such occurrences, in some instances people would rather pay rl money than have to sit in an ore field and mine. People want to have fun in eve and are willing to pay rl money to insure their ships rather than having to spend their æplay timeÆ raising in game funds. Many people pay to play and donÆt want to play to pay (if u get me) Let's get this straight, if a girl has to be "rescued" 10 times a week from a brothel shes not a damsel but a prostitute.
Matthew	Posted - 2005.06.28 15:43:00 - [222] Hella, I see where you're coming from, but it really depends what you consider to be in CCP's best interests. They've stated themselves that if they just wanted to have as many players and make as much cash as possible, then they wouldn't have gone with eve as a design concept. So they obviously don't consider maximum profit as their best interest...instead, they want to make eve the game they want it to be, whilst making enough money to stay in business. By those criteria, stamping out the isk farmers is in their best interests.
Dionysus Davinci	Posted - 2005.06.28 15:48:00 - [223] Originally by: Matthew make as much cash as possible, I refuse to believe that anyone could not want this. They just think they can do it with eve and maybe they can becaue the Fantasy crap is getting old.
suza	Posted - 2005.06.28 16:10:00 - [224] Edited by: suza on 28/06/2005 16:11:28 Originally by: Matthew By that logic, we should nerf anything that allows you to make large amounts of isk, just in case isk farmers get hold of it. The T2 market isn't just designed for the consumers - it's designed for the producers too. It was always the intention to limit supply so that T2 producers could make decent profits. As such, limiting the BPO's is a must, otherwise the T2 market becomes the T1 market but with more hassle. However these limited BPO's are then distributed, those with huge piles of isk will find people to buy them off. I will only question two things with what you say Matthew. One is that distributing T2 BPO's through the market would not be nurfing. It would simply devalue them and remove the strangle hold that a very few have on the T2 market. This would make the excessive proffiteering that isk farmers need harder to happen. Secondly it costs about 2 mill in bits to make a cap recharger T2, for an item sold for 15 mill, at some stage a desent profit becomes exploitation. This also is not good for the game. The harm that these people cause as far as I am conserned is that it creates PVP without consequence, like WOW. The fact that you have something to loose when you go into battle ensures you train and plan. It creates that emotional buzz that stops PVP from becoming little more than a mouse clicking execise. This fact (that you have something to loose) is one of the best aspects of the game. To say eve is only about PVP over simplifies why the game is so good. - Fly Hard, Fly fast for tomorrow is another day for freedom!
Razean	Posted - 2005.06.28 17:45:00 - [225] Originally by: Dionysus Davinci Originally by: Matthew make as much cash as possible, I refuse to believe that anyone could not want this. They just think they can do it with eve and maybe they can becaue the Fantasy crap is getting old. I'd say World of Warcraft has pretty much destroyed any idea that Fantasy crap is getting old. And I really don't find it a hard concept to believe. There are actually plenty of people out there who have values and goals that are not centralized around the almighty dollar, or pound, or isk.
Maxine Stirner	Posted - 2005.06.29 00:01:00 - [226] I'm breaking my own previous statement on this, but when I read this, two things come to mind. -Hotel owners beating the poor beggar kids with a broom and then grinning at the wealthy patrons like nothing just happened. - I've studied the origins of property law for mojority of my short life. There's something about this situation that has some kind of interior discord. I haven't quite got my head wrapped around it, but when I have this itch about something there's usually something to it - my daimon is always nagging me in my dreams. In the real world, people contract law enforcement from the society around, and participate in that society, and in exchange, they acquire security in their goods. CCP ARE the authority in this case, and they are working towards the defense of their own profits, thus, the ordinary philosophical base of property is somehow circumvented. The internet is spawning new definitions of community, and more and more people are using it, especially in places where community has become degraded. So you have this odd situation where CCP have, as artisans, built something like a prototype of a new kind of community, but do strange things against it with the autonomous powers of a suzerainty, but in the name if not form of the common good. I'm not sure where we are going as a species, but somehow I suspect that little things like this are at the heart of it. It's the psychology behind some phenomenon bigger than the corporate experience. -- In some way, the ordinary principles of property have lost their founding in this sphere as a result of CCP not requiring an exterior agency to enforce it. They are not an equal agent, thus the only implication I can draw is that there is only a consequentialist rather than implicit directive to observe property rights. As a result, I feel no need to regard the ones that got away as unethical by any standard with which I am familiar. It gives me some crazy ideas for a next short story though.. Locking Times & Evil Asteroids
Drunk 103	Posted - 2005.06.29 00:33:00 - [227] so intelligent but my eyes still hurt.
Aleis	Posted - 2005.06.29 05:32:00 - [228] I personaly have no simpathy for the people that sell the isk for real life money for two reasons. One my corp a long time ago got robbed by some one that we later found out, although this is unoficial knowlegde, sold the items and then sold the Isk for RL Cash. So if you want to look it this in real world situation i should be calling the cops and having them arrested since those items had a RL Monetary value, and that was a thus a RL Theft. But hey this is a game so i moved on. And two for those defending the "possibly poor that CCP just unemployed" I need to go no farther than that first disclaimer you read when you start the game. I think it says something like "Your not allowed to sell in game stuff for RL Money" So as a law abiding person, or heck just a nice person with a moral or two i don't. But if you want to breack the rules here are teh consquences, "Thank you for playing good bye" You don't feel bad for the drug dealers when a Shipment of drugs gets busted do you? I mean those poor people that make there living off selling those drugs just got unemployed. :..(
DesertKing	Posted - 2005.06.29 07:00:00 - [229] Hi punishers:). I have a questions: - I don't know how you guys detecting isk sellers but I want to be sure that I will not get ban for borrowing some ISKs to newbie members of my corp. The amounts aren't fantastic but sometimes it comes around 100M to get their first BS. - Are you going to investigate and un-ban accounts which were banned for "modified client"? I know the people who got ban just for cyrilic fonts. We using these fonts about 2 years and it was not a problem for you until you manage to embed fonts into client (I guess in next patch)? I just don't understand how you came to this decision to ban players for fonts without any word of warning...
Hella May	Posted - 2005.06.29 07:05:00 - [230] Edited by: Hella May on 29/06/2005 07:13:04 Let's get this straight, if a girl has to be "rescued" 10 times a week from a brothel shes not a damsel but a prostitute.
Hella May	Posted - 2005.06.29 07:16:00 - [231] Edited by: Hella May on 29/06/2005 07:17:03 Originally by: Wrangler Oh, and just for the record, this is a game, this is a privately owned site. This is not a country. Some people seem to have a tendency to mix the two up. p.s Private or not, you are still bound by laws :) Let's get this straight, if a girl has to be "rescued" 10 times a week from a brothel shes not a damsel but a prostitute.
Matthew	Posted - 2005.06.29 08:24:00 - [232] Originally by: suza I will only question two things with what you say Matthew. One is that distributing T2 BPO's through the market would not be nurfing. It would simply devalue them and remove the strangle hold that a very few have on the T2 market. This would make the excessive proffiteering that isk farmers need harder to happen. Secondly it costs about 2 mill in bits to make a cap recharger T2, for an item sold for 15 mill, at some stage a desent profit becomes exploitation. This also is not good for the game. Putting T2 BPO's on the open market would be a nerf to all the T2 producers. If you did that, the T2 market becomes jus like the T1 market, but with profits competed down to a whisker. This would have a knock-on effect down the supply chain to POS owners and ice miners. That's not to say the T2 market is perfect - there are certainly a few lines, the cap recharger II being one of them, that could probably do with a slight increase in supply. Which would mean a few more BPO's, not wholesale availiability. You can't go round nerfing anything that makes a large profit just because isk farmers may make use of it - making a large profit is a perfectly legitimate thing to do in the game, it's just the use a few put that profit to that is illegitimate. Originally by: Dionysus Davinci Originally by: Matthew make as much cash as possible, I refuse to believe that anyone could not want this. They just think they can do it with eve and maybe they can becaue the Fantasy crap is getting old. I'm not saying they don't want to make money, just that given a choice between making eve how they want it to be and having a decent income, or letting eve be whatever makes the most money and having shedloads of cash, they choose the former. They've stated this themselves on several occasions. Despite the way modern society seems to be trying to drive everyone towards the worship of the almighty dollar (or euro/pound/isk/etc), there are still those that hold to the old idea that happiness > money - provided they have enough money to operate (which they certainly appear to), they'll do what makes them most happy, not just what makes the most money. Originally by: Maxine Stirner I feel no need to regard the ones that got away as unethical by any standard with which I am familiar. How about this standard; honoring agreements and keeping your word. By logging into the game, these people agreed to the EULA, and in doing so agreed not to perform any action that breaches it. Selling isk for RL cash breaches the EULA, therefore in doing so, they broke that agreement. They lied. If you do not consider that unethical, then we're obviously working to very different standards of behaviour. Originally by: DesertKing - I don't know how you guys detecting isk sellers but I want to be sure that I will not get ban for borrowing some ISKs to newbie members of my corp. The amounts aren't fantastic but sometimes it comes around 100M to get their first BS. If you want to make 100% sure, file a petition to check with the GMs, but I can't see any way this would be forbidden. Giving isk to other players is permitted, trading isk for other in-game items is permitted. It's only a problem if you exchanged RL money as part of the transaction.
kieron	Posted - 2005.06.29 16:06:00 - [233] Maxine, believe it or not, CCP's intentions in this matter are not anywhere near that deep. It simply comes down to this, CCP wants players to succeed in the game by playing it, not by buying their way through it. The game rules and policies are in place to enforce that and also protect CCP from legal actions. The last thing we need is a sweatshop operation going on a legal tear and involving CCP because they provided the platform for the exploitation. Silly and extreme? Perhaps, but think about some of the lawsuits filed in the recent past. kieron Community Manager, EVE Online
Branmuffin	Posted - 2005.06.29 17:02:00 - [234] Or more accurately Keiron, the Devs want you to pay CCP 80$ (6 months of subscription fees) rather then some other nubbin on ebay the same amount. The skill and economic system are structured in such a way as to reward people who play the game more with a better game experience. This isn't anything more insidous then a business model.
Haldane IV	Posted - 2005.06.29 18:08:00 - [235] Maxine Stirner Gallente Metaxy Posted - 2005.06.29 00:01:00 - [109] - Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm breaking my own previous statement on this, but when I read this, two things come to mind. -Hotel owners beating the poor beggar kids with a broom and then grinning at the wealthy patrons like nothing just happened. - I've studied the origins of property law for mojority of my short life. There's something about this situation that has some kind of interior discord. I haven't quite got my head wrapped around it, but when I have this itch about something there's usually something to it - my daimon is always nagging me in my dreams. In the real world, people contract law enforcement from the society around, and participate in that society, and in exchange, they acquire security in their goods. CCP ARE the authority in this case, and they are working towards the defense of their own profits, thus, the ordinary philosophical base of property is somehow circumvented. The internet is spawning new definitions of community, and more and more people are using it, especially in places where community has become degraded. So you have this odd situation where CCP have, as artisans, built something like a prototype of a new kind of community, but do strange things against it with the autonomous powers of a suzerainty, but in the name if not form of the common good. I'm not sure where we are going as a species, but somehow I suspect that little things like this are at the heart of it. It's the psychology behind some phenomenon bigger than the corporate experience. -- In some way, the ordinary principles of property have lost their founding in this sphere as a result of CCP not requiring an exterior agency to enforce it. They are not an equal agent, thus the only implication I can draw is that there is only a consequentialist rather than implicit directive to observe property rights. As a result, I feel no need to regard the ones that got away as unethical by any standard with which I am familiar. I This is gonna be boring so all normal people ignore it! I only got a lower second in Jurisprudence so I fully expect to be told I have got the wrong end of the stick here completely, It seems to me there is no conflict with the rRL law enforcement model Maxine refers to - simply because the 'net and EVE are a part of that model. That is to say, CCP are only protecting their rights to have gamers pay their subs to get game time to earn their own isk - which probably takes them more game time to earn than the macro using T" BPO owning isk farmers take to earn their isk, so CCP make more money. Because the contract CCP have with subscribers gives them the right to terminate subs (by a self-help remedy) when the contract is broken, when they ban accounts they are acting in accordance with their RL righst, and in-game philosophivcal or ethical issues are irrelevant. If that was not the case, and CCP were truly acting autonymously and outside the RL model, the isk farmers could maybe sue them for loss of profits? So because CCPs actions are in the RL, against people aiming to make money in RL and simply using the game as the means to do that, I do not see that the "ordinary philosophical base of property is circumvented" (and I think there is actually more than one theory for why property rights are recognised and enforced by Society). It follows that because CCPs and the isk farmers actions should be judged against the RL model, not in the context of actions taking place and existing wholly in a self-contained in-game community (where different rules may indeed apply), they are doing wrong, and Maxine we should regard the ones that got away, as acting un-ethically. In a nut shell Maxine, Imaybe the problem is you are not properly differentiating between actions taking place in RL and in-game, when applying an ethical test?
Grizwold	Posted - 2005.06.29 19:01:00 - [236] Edited by: Grizwold on 29/06/2005 19:02:43 Unfortunately the issue of economic gain from playing a game will not end with the banning. Earlier in Eve one could get almost $1000 US dollars for 1 Billion isk (1,000,000,000) on E-Bay. Now with the massive amounts of isk floating around, the real world value has dropped to probably around 200 dollars. That being said..$200 isn't a huge amount of money in the West...however in certain parts of the world it is a huge amount i.e. more than 3 months wages for middle class. That being said, just wait until China comes on-line with its 100's of thousands of game addicts...many of whom may be very interested in 200 dollars. CCP has to integrate both policy and the ability to track and investigate large numbers of E-Bayers more systematically in order to deal with this issue before China and other countries come on line. It has always amazed me that peeps believed that they could sell characters on E-Bay and expect to get away with it, when they show so much of the character's info in the selling info. I could not believe that CCP wouldn't be able to locate the character easily with all of that info (practically everything but the name) and ban the guy... Anyways, congrats CCP for publishing the news item, definitely a good idea and cudos for the efforts on stopping this activity.
Archa	Posted - 2005.06.30 11:46:00 - [237] While i'm playing mmorpgs for over 4 years now this question has been asked alot. Should we allow people to sell ingame money for reallife money. And in general the componies creating and hosting the game say: NO. And i'm glad they say no. However you can't stop the selling. As i recall there have been accounts banned in multiple games but many lawsuits have won in favour of the banned accounts and they could continue their ingame money selling by simply claiming that they sell not the ingame money but: "the time to make that money". And in general it is not all bad. There are plenty of people out there who have worked their ass off to get that battleship and once they have it some pirate comes along and blow up all their work. why not spend that 40 dollar instead of mining for another 2 weeks to regain that ship. And it doesn't matter when that kid sells about 400 million a month so he can pay for his 2 accounts and spend some of his money on beer and schoolbooks. But when giant corporations hire 80 people to mine all day pay them a lousy wage so the companies can make 10 times that wage then there is something very wrong. I truely hope that ccp will be able to keep banning these people and that these people will not regain their accounts with their sleek lawyers and their dispicable law-suits. But when you find a site on the internet where a company sells ingame money for everquest, ultimaonline, world of warcraft, guildwars, eve-online and every other mmorpg in excistance then there is something very very very wrong. Keep up the good work ccp. And good riddance to all those who don't play this game for fun. But just for economic gain.
Den Haag	Posted - 2005.06.30 17:13:00 - [238] Well done CCP and keep up the good fight.
Steve Zodiak	Posted - 2005.06.30 19:22:00 - [239] Archa said "But when giant corporations hire 80 people to mine all day pay them a lousy wage so the companies can make 10 times that wage then there is something very wrong." Absolutely. Isn't it a shame some kindly souls cannot give these exploited poverty stricken third-worlders their own PC and line connection and start up three month eve and internet and electricity subsubscription so they can farm and sell their own isk on e-bay. Problem solved
Goodberry	Posted - 2005.07.03 21:51:00 - [240] /me sighs at the snip some ppl will go to make money. Get a proper job. Link not allowed - Wrangler

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