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Solstice Project
Highsec Outlaw Elementary School
2616
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 09:15:00 -
[121] - Quote
Ginger Barbarella wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Warp Planet6 wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:How do you use current mechanics to allow 2 parties to engage in a limited conflict similar to what the duel system will allow? Move lowsec, warp planet 6 and fight like a boss. That doesn't provide any of the benefits of the duel system. Or the safety; it merely removes the risk that is the hallmark of Eve Online. Curious that, no? I don't want to play WoW in Space. I don't want to play Aeon in Space. You guys want that pussification in the way you play, leave. I'll happily hold the door for you (and no, I don't want your tainted stuffs). You could help them finding the door, you know.
Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire |
Rordan D'Kherr
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
412
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 09:26:00 -
[122] - Quote
Ginger Barbarella wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Warp Planet6 wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:How do you use current mechanics to allow 2 parties to engage in a limited conflict similar to what the duel system will allow? Move lowsec, warp planet 6 and fight like a boss. That doesn't provide any of the benefits of the duel system. Or the safety; it merely removes the risk that is the hallmark of Eve Online. Curious that, no? I don't want to play WoW in Space. I don't want to play Aeon in Space. You guys want that pussification in the way you play, leave. I'll happily hold the door for you (and no, I don't want your tainted stuffs).
I think that is pretty much the issue here.
Safe pvp light, out of the (sand-)box, a happy place for "pvp" next to the mission hub or favorite belt. No need to go to the risky spaces (because concord protection is good hmmkay?). _______________________________________ Don't be scared, because being afk is not a crime. |
March rabbit
Aliastra
499
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 09:34:00 -
[123] - Quote
Sura Sadiva wrote: If you want consensual PvP then I want consensual market prices.
Is it wrong to have PvP "enforced" and not consensual? Then why should I've your market prices enforced to me? I want to consensually decide what I've to pay!
well you have it already!
surprise, surprise!
there is BPO market with NPC prices, get 1 BPO, it has NPC given material requirements, go mine and build stuff. You will always need to mine the same amount of ore independent of market prices
PS: I ignored miners competition and manufacturing slots competition because you only asked about consensual market prices |
Christ Illusion
Atrocity Vendors
22
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Posted - 2013.01.22 09:45:00 -
[124] - Quote
Ginger Barbarella wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Warp Planet6 wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:How do you use current mechanics to allow 2 parties to engage in a limited conflict similar to what the duel system will allow? Move lowsec, warp planet 6 and fight like a boss. That doesn't provide any of the benefits of the duel system. Or the safety; it merely removes the risk that is the hallmark of Eve Online. Curious that, no? I don't want to play WoW in Space. I don't want to play Aeon in Space. You guys want that pussification in the way you play, leave. I'll happily hold the door for you (and no, I don't want your tainted stuffs).
As I see you don't PVP at all. Anyway, who cares if ppl dueling in high-sec? They did it before. EVE is not just your game. |
Galaxy Pig
New Order Logistics CODE.
646
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 10:28:00 -
[125] - Quote
Wow, I really don't like this idea. The whole premise of the OP is that ridiculous old quest for a "fair fight". It disgusts me to see him refer to WoW style 1v1 carebear combat as "hardcore". The people who talk about "fair fights" and "blobbing" are always the same people who refer to their mining character as "defenseless". Just pushing the tired old narrative that the cards are always stacked against you and not the other guy, the system is always set up so you lose and we win. Makes me sick.
I think I'll go kill some defenseless miners to feel better. |
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
197
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 10:56:00 -
[126] - Quote
What puzzle me more is the fact that if you run a 20-men mining op, wiping wwhole belts and leaving no margin for a solo miner this is perfectly fine, nobody argue about numbers and fairness. Nobody cries or think they should scale down their numbers or be policied by some game mechanics nor someone call them "******* grieffers"
Or when you use a freighter to move massive goods on the market bumping the prices and ******* the profit of a someone that can rely only on iteron mark II. This is accepted. Why don't cry about this too? What about adding some game mechanics to atificially limit this and make things "fair"? Would you folks be happy?
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Rordan D'Kherr
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
412
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Posted - 2013.01.22 11:01:00 -
[127] - Quote
Sura Sadiva wrote: What puzzle me more is the fact that if you run a 20-men mining op, wiping wwhole belts and leaving no margin for a solo miner this is perfectly fine, nobody argue about numbers and fairness. Nobody cries or think they should scale down their numbers or be policied by some game mechanics nor someone call them "******* grieffers"
Or when you use a freighter to move massive goods on the market bumping the prices and ******* the profit of a someone that can rely only on iteron mark II. This is accepted. Why don't cry about this too? What about adding some game mechanics to atificially limit this and make things "fair"? Would you folks be happy?
Maybe hisec carebears are more hardcore or in line with the game intension than hisec "pvp'ers". It's kinda weird, you are right. _______________________________________ Don't be scared, because being afk is not a crime. |
TheBlueMonkey
Don't Be a Menace That Red Alliance
365
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Posted - 2013.01.22 11:14:00 -
[128] - Quote
I find fights way more interesting when we're out numbered and out gunned tbh. |
Skurja Volpar
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
41
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Posted - 2013.01.22 11:30:00 -
[129] - Quote
Not the concept itself, concord sanctioned tournaments/arenas might be a cool way to get more players experienced and confident in pvp. But overall my worry about what it might do to the game outweighs most of that.
It's a slippery slope, and if it becomes the norm for pvp minded pilots as well as the less experienced a becomes an actual metagame, we might find eve becomes a much more boring place.
Also, 1v1 is available as it is. You just have to look for it, and be aware there's always the risk of; it not being honored, nuetral reps, being humiliated outside a trade hub station - all of which are part of eve's core emergent-ness-ness and can be avoided by arranging with people you know/have had good experiences with before.
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Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy Caldari State
28
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Posted - 2013.01.22 11:43:00 -
[130] - Quote
Here's what I'm reading between the lines: "PVPers" don't want high sec dwellers to be able to PVP in high sec, with CONCORD protection. They want them to go to low or null. If they can "duel" in high sec, they won't have any incentive to risk a trip to more dangerous areas where "PVPers" can gank them without recourse. Also, if they are practicing PVP, they'll be better prepared for confrontations in more dangerous parts of space and might actually be able to deal with "PVPers" when they finally do go to low or null.
I haven't read the whole thread, but in what I read, I didn't see anyone talk about duelers being rendered invincible and ungankable while they were dueling. I didn't see anyone suggest that there could be no cheating, metagaming, shenanigans, or whatever you want to call it in these "duels". And, if we consider the possibility of a mutual war between two 1-man corps, or a drawn out "Limited Engagement" involving just two people, or even just a random contest between two people low sec or null or just flagged as suspect in high sec, then there are ALREADY duels in EVE. If you are arguing against dueling, then you might as well just go ahead and call for an outright ban on PVPing in high sec. That's really what you want, for people to NEED to go to where you can attack them without recourse in order to play the game they want to play. It's just another way of calling for a nerf to high sec. You don't want people to make ISK in high sec. You don't want people to do industry in high sec. You don't want people to "gf" in high sec. You just want to them to go to where you are already established, so you can dominate them. But, I say, don't worry uber-pirate or elite PVPer. That noob in a Badger will keep trying to run your gate camp. He didn't go to low or null to PVP in the first place. |
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Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
201
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 11:52:00 -
[131] - Quote
A dueling system is fine, as long as its an addition to and not a replacement for other forms of PvP. War Decs must always exist and they should never be forced to be consentual or fair in anyway. Quite to the contrary I think war should be given some attention in the incentives department in particular to motivate defenders to actually fight.
The reality of Eve is that, if you don't love it like it is today, you should probobly go ahead and unsub.-á |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
1765
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 12:35:00 -
[132] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Here's what I'm reading between the lines: "PVPers" don't want high sec dwellers to be able to PVP in high sec, with CONCORD protection. They want them to go to low or null. If they can "duel" in high sec, they won't have any incentive to risk a trip to more dangerous areas where "PVPers" can gank them without recourse. Also, if they are practicing PVP, they'll be better prepared for confrontations in more dangerous parts of space and might actually be able to deal with "PVPers" when they finally do go to low or null.
I haven't read the whole thread, but in what I read, I didn't see anyone talk about duelers being rendered invincible and ungankable while they were dueling. I didn't see anyone suggest that there could be no cheating, metagaming, shenanigans, or whatever you want to call it in these "duels". And, if we consider the possibility of a mutual war between two 1-man corps, or a drawn out "Limited Engagement" involving just two people, or even just a random contest between two people low sec or null or just flagged as suspect in high sec, then there are ALREADY duels in EVE. If you are arguing against dueling, then you might as well just go ahead and call for an outright ban on PVPing in high sec. That's really what you want, for people to NEED to go to where you can attack them without recourse in order to play the game they want to play. It's just another way of calling for a nerf to high sec. You don't want people to make ISK in high sec. You don't want people to do industry in high sec. You don't want people to "gf" in high sec. You just want to them to go to where you are already established, so you can dominate them. But, I say, don't worry uber-pirate or elite PVPer. That noob in a Badger will keep trying to run your gate camp. He didn't go to low or null to PVP in the first place.
So much hatred, prejudice and misconceptions.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
197
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 13:02:00 -
[133] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Here's what I'm reading between the lines: "PVPers" don't want high sec dwellers to be able to PVP in high sec, with CONCORD protection. They want them to go to low or null. If they can "duel" in high sec, they won't have any incentive to risk a trip to more dangerous areas where "PVPers" can gank them without recourse. Also, if they are practicing PVP, they'll be better prepared for confrontations in more dangerous parts of space and might actually be able to deal with "PVPers" when they finally do go to low or null.
I haven't read the whole thread, but in what I read, I didn't see anyone talk about duelers being rendered invincible and ungankable while they were dueling. I didn't see anyone suggest that there could be no cheating, metagaming, shenanigans, or whatever you want to call it in these "duels". And, if we consider the possibility of a mutual war between two 1-man corps, or a drawn out "Limited Engagement" involving just two people, or even just a random contest between two people low sec or null or just flagged as suspect in high sec, then there are ALREADY duels in EVE. If you are arguing against dueling, then you might as well just go ahead and call for an outright ban on PVPing in high sec. That's really what you want, for people to NEED to go to where you can attack them without recourse in order to play the game they want to play. It's just another way of calling for a nerf to high sec. You don't want people to make ISK in high sec. You don't want people to do industry in high sec. You don't want people to "gf" in high sec. You just want to them to go to where you are already established, so you can dominate them. But, I say, don't worry uber-pirate or elite PVPer. That noob in a Badger will keep trying to run your gate camp. He didn't go to low or null to PVP in the first place.
Damn, they unveiled our plan. They are too smart, brothers. Let's drop the mask, insisting is futile.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7271
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 13:06:00 -
[134] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Here's what I'm reading between the lines
"Here's the **** that I'm making up"
Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
908
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 13:16:00 -
[135] - Quote
The problem with arena pvp is that it's 100% unnecessary, fights can already happen anywhere to anyone.
The only reason it's suggested is because it's a step towards making things "safer" or only consensual.
It's also a slight step away from EVE's "single universe" style ideals, since you'd be creating specific areas that exist only for a specific type of pvp.
Edit: Additionally, I feel it puts limits on the sandbox to introduce a type of or area for pvp in which there are strict rules and which cannot be interfered with by outsiders (whether a third party, or backup because someone else was being dishonest, etc). These kinds of things are a big part of EVE - lying, cheating, finding yourself in a situation that you didn't expect as a result of other players, etc. Making areas or mechanics within EVE that severely limit that is bad. |
Solstice Project
Highsec Outlaw Elementary School
2626
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 13:18:00 -
[136] - Quote
I'm a con. I'm sensual.
This confuses me. Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire |
adopt
Hostile. PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
495
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 13:43:00 -
[137] - Quote
As soon as you undock, you're accepting the terms of: Being blown up, harassed, abused, smacked, looted and laughed at. Learned that on day 1, still teach it to the newbies today. Shadoo > Always remember to fit Cynosural Field Generator I, have 450 Liquid Ozone in your cargo and convo a friendly Pandemic Legion member if you have a capital or super capital ship tackled.
FREE XOLVE ~ THE HERO TEST NEEDS |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
1062
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 13:53:00 -
[138] - Quote
How something like this extends to 7+ pages is beyond me. Did anyone even read the dev post about this? All they are doing is adding a mechanic for what used to be can flipping to get a fight. How is that so controversial?
You can still gank. You can still put out a can to catch unaware noobs. You can still do all of the other PVP that used to occurr. You can still have your neutral RR come in and help in your little duel (with the same neutral RR consequences).
Ultimately you can choose to ignore it. |
Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
202
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 13:55:00 -
[139] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:How something like this extends to 7+ pages is beyond me. Did anyone even read the dev post about this? All they are doing is adding a mechanic for what used to be can flipping to get a fight. How is that so controversial?
You can still gank. You can still put out a can to catch unaware noobs. You can still do all of the other PVP that used to occurr. You can still have your neutral RR come in and help in your little duel (with the same neutral RR consequences).
Ultimately you can choose to ignore it.
Clearly you haven't followed the conversation, else you would understand that discussions about making war decs "more fair" has been the hot topic as of late and the dueling system is being used as a "hey this works better, its how war decs should be"... kind of line of thinking.
Its all theorycraft of course, but what isn't on the forums. The reality of Eve is that, if you don't love it like it is today, you should probobly go ahead and unsub.-á |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
1062
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 16:58:00 -
[140] - Quote
Kryss Darkdust wrote:Derath Ellecon wrote:How something like this extends to 7+ pages is beyond me. Did anyone even read the dev post about this? All they are doing is adding a mechanic for what used to be can flipping to get a fight. How is that so controversial?
You can still gank. You can still put out a can to catch unaware noobs. You can still do all of the other PVP that used to occurr. You can still have your neutral RR come in and help in your little duel (with the same neutral RR consequences).
Ultimately you can choose to ignore it. Clearly you haven't followed the conversation, else you would understand that discussions about making war decs "more fair" has been the hot topic as of late and the dueling system is being used as a "hey this works better, its how war decs should be"... kind of line of thinking. Its all theorycraft of course, but what isn't on the forums.
You are correct. I did not get through all 7 pages. I read the first few. And then the current page, which still seems to be all about arenas (not wardecs) and made the wrong assumption that the thread was still on topic. My bad. |
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
12784
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 17:05:00 -
[141] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:How something like this extends to 7+ pages is beyond me. Did anyone even read the dev post about this? All they are doing is adding a mechanic for what used to be can flipping to get a fight. How is that so controversial? It's not.
The controversial part is that people still think there should be some form of consensual-only fighting, and since this new old feature doesn't provide it, they're trying to frame it as one anyway so they can then argue that adding instanced combat wouldn't make any difference. Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
3379
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 18:50:00 -
[142] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Derath Ellecon wrote:How something like this extends to 7+ pages is beyond me. Did anyone even read the dev post about this? All they are doing is adding a mechanic for what used to be can flipping to get a fight. How is that so controversial? It's not. The controversial part is that people still think there should be some form of consensual- only fighting, and since this new old feature doesn't provide it, they're trying to frame it as one anyway so they can then argue that adding instanced combat wouldn't make any difference. I have to reluctantly agree.
I think the saving grace is that there are apparently plans for more frequent "Open" tournaments with lower requirements for team entry.
Given the nature of the EvE Universe I think that this is probably as close as we should come to an arena system.
As I pointed out in another thread, Open Tournaments also have the perks of being streamed and having prizes involved... which is only desireable because they have CCP oversight in a controlled environment outside what we consider to be the normal EvE universe.
In other words if this were something that anyone could do at any time there would be serious drawbacks, but since they are more along the lines of occasional organized events it allows the concept to function. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Bane Necran
Appono Astos
1506
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 20:10:00 -
[143] - Quote
Tippia wrote:The controversial part is that people still think there should be some form of consensual-only fighting, and since this new old feature doesn't provide it, they're trying to frame it as one anyway so they can then argue that adding instanced combat wouldn't make any difference.
Nice 180. "The nice thing about quotes is that they give us a nodding acquaintance with the originator which is often socially impressive." ~Kenneth Williams |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
598
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 20:32:00 -
[144] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Want some - one on one?
Just find somewhere quiet and get to it.
No need for a new mechanic to facilitate it. Or have a mechanic and do it wherever, taking the chance of interference in more crowded places without increasing the odds of it happening too greatly. Why should people who want to duel not be able to just outside of a hub station or anywhere else? Because it goes against one of the fundamental principles of Eve - that once you undock, you can be attacked any where, any time, any place. To change this, is to undermine the very basis of Eve. Actually, no. It doesn't change that at all. You may want to reread the blog on the dueling system. |
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
910
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 21:28:00 -
[145] - Quote
I don't see why these things couldn't be set up within the current systems, with simple war decs between corporations, similar to say red vs blue but with members of each side organising smaller more specific fights/events amongst themselves - for example a handful of pilots on Side A could get together and offer something to side B, like "hey next monday night we'd like a five a side fight, t1 cruisers only :)" to get something started with whatever rules they like. If the other side decided to cheat then... well, that's EVE. Either your side could start cheating too, or you could have leadership of both sides help enforce people adhering to the agreed "rules" |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
598
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 22:03:00 -
[146] - Quote
TheGunslinger42 wrote:I don't see why these things couldn't be set up within the current systems, with simple war decs between corporations, similar to say red vs blue but with members of each side organising smaller more specific fights/events amongst themselves - for example a handful of pilots on Side A could get together and offer something to side B, like "hey next monday night we'd like a five a side fight, t1 cruisers only :)" to get something started with whatever rules they like. If the other side decided to cheat then... well, that's EVE. Either your side could start cheating too, or you could have leadership of both sides help enforce people adhering to the agreed "rules" Except that wardecs are a terrible mechanic for spontaneous, 1 time fights. 24 hour lead up and 50m price tag for a single 1 off? Also the agreements you mention already exist in exactly the same way in the duel system and wardecs since those agreements are up to player engagement and enforcement, not the in game mechanics, for both. |
Mister S Burke
LUNA INDUSTRIES
54
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 22:10:00 -
[147] - Quote
The truth is these so called "PVPers" are not even PVPers, they are just ganker/griefers. EVE is a griefer game and they want that, I'm not saying to change it, it's a niche. All games used to be grief fests until game companies realized people want to "god forbid" have a chance to fight back. Now let me be clear, I'm not calling for change, I don't care, hell I will fit a gank destroyer and pop an AFK autopiloter for that "EVE pvp experience" before I leave. The griefers are not calling for actual PVP, they want more victims other than the noob who wanders into their gate camp every other day. I played Age of Conan back in 2008 when Goons (goonheim) tried to "take over" the game, that doesn't work when everyone is more or less equal, they got camped, got bored and went back to EVE to be Uber. |
Flakey Foont
214
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 22:28:00 -
[148] - Quote
As EVE becomes more popular, we can expect the influx of folks with ideas like this. Many have only played one other MMO which was geared toward the more....simple.
Instanced PvP, and it would have to be to be consensual, would spoil any immersion and just generally be lame. Oh hey gonna stop playing and go duel now.
WTF....
This and "let us grind SP" or "Let us train more than one toon" are unfortunately signs that new players are logging on for better or worse. |
Mister S Burke
LUNA INDUSTRIES
54
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 22:41:00 -
[149] - Quote
Flakey Foont wrote:As EVE becomes more popular, we can expect the influx of folks with ideas like this. Many have only played one other MMO which was geared toward the more....simple.
Instanced PvP, and it would have to be to be consensual, would spoil any immersion and just generally be lame. Oh hey gonna stop playing and go duel now.
WTF....
This and "let us grind SP" or "Let us train more than one toon" are unfortunately signs that new players are logging on for better or worse.
I wonder if you guys who complain about "other MMOs" have even played them? You guys act like you can just top wow arena charts playing one handed after 2 weeks of play or just become the top COD team in the nation in a few hours. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
1790
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 22:54:00 -
[150] - Quote
Mister S Burke wrote: The truth is these so called "PVPers" are not even PVPers, they are just ganker/griefers. EVE is a griefer game and they want that, I'm not saying to change it, it's a niche. All games used to be grief fests until game companies realized people want to "god forbid" have a chance to fight back. Now let me be clear, I'm not calling for change, I don't care, hell I will fit a gank destroyer and pop an AFK autopiloter for that "EVE pvp experience" before I leave. The griefers are not calling for actual PVP, they want more victims other than the noob who wanders into their gate camp every other day. I played Age of Conan back in 2008 when Goons (goonheim) tried to "take over" the game, that doesn't work when everyone is more or less equal, they got camped, got bored and went back to EVE to be Uber.
You sound like someone who has never fought other pilots in EVE.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
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