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Ciel Dunois
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
0
   |
Posted - 2011.10.11 04:54:00 -
[1] - Quote
Fighters will have their tracking nerf more than 3 times with the increase of resolution from 125 to 400.
Now by itself is not a problem, but you gotta remember that fighters orbit their target at 1km, meaning you're going to need high tracking with fighters don't.
That means that fighters will no longer be able to hit STATIONARY BATTLESHIPS.
In order to hit with fighters you will need to target paint battleships, but at that point a fighter bomber will out dps a fighter on battleships.
If you want to defend against subcaps you're better off using heavy or sentry drones. For Capitals and up you use Fighter Bombers.
Fighters are now pointless.
For a carrier fighters will have little use, you're better off using regular drones now. No point of getting a carrier to fight against other capital ships which will tear it apart.
Now that i've said that its time to sell my fighters and fill my carrier with tech 2 heavies and sentries. |
Obsidian Hawk
RONA Corporation
RONA Directorate
167
|
Posted - 2011.10.11 04:58:00 -
[2] - Quote
dear moron.
All nerfs are subject to change and nothing is set in stone until the day before deployment. If you have issues, post with your main and offer better feedback in the proper test server forums and eve information portal.
Also fitting a target painter or 2 never hurt anyone. |
Sin Meng
Creative Assembly
10
|
Posted - 2011.10.11 05:00:00 -
[3] - Quote
This sounds a lot like something you might want to post in, oh I dunno, the official feedback thread? You know, the one the dev(s) responsible for these PROPOSED changes are watching for said feedback? If you're in the interest of raging and attracting trolls like a swarm of hungry wasps then go ahead. But if you're in the interest of influencing the changes then change your tone to something less accusatory and more constructive, and put it where it belongs.
P.S. You mildly upset?
Elements of the past and the future combining to make something not quite as good as either. |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
39
|
Posted - 2011.10.11 05:00:00 -
[4] - Quote
How about we give fighters ewar along with thier dp? Like Minmatar fighters shot target paitners? |
Kumq uat
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
17
|
Posted - 2011.10.11 05:01:00 -
[5] - Quote
Cry more please. Your tears sustain me. So delicious! |
Ciel Dunois
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.11 05:01:00 -
[6] - Quote
Obsidian Hawk wrote:dear moron.
All nerfs are subject to change and nothing is set in stone until the day before deployment. If you have issues, post with your main and offer better feedback in the proper test server forums and eve information portal.
Also fitting a target painter or 2 never hurt anyone.
Like I said, if a battleship is painted you should just use Fighter Bombers. You're a moron for suggesting a carrier should sacrifice mids for target painters.
Kumq uat wrote:Cry more please. Your tears sustain me. So delicious!
Why don't you go scavenge for isk like you poor RvBer's usually do. |
Kumq uat
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
17
|
Posted - 2011.10.11 05:04:00 -
[7] - Quote
Ciel Dunois wrote:Obsidian Hawk wrote:dear moron.
All nerfs are subject to change and nothing is set in stone until the day before deployment. If you have issues, post with your main and offer better feedback in the proper test server forums and eve information portal.
Also fitting a target painter or 2 never hurt anyone. Like I said, if a battleship is painted you should just use Fighter Bombers. You're a moron for suggesting a carrier should sacrifice mids for target painters. Kumq uat wrote:Cry more please. Your tears sustain me. So delicious! Why don't you go scavenge for isk like you poor RvBer's usually do.
Check my corp history. I am Guiding Hand. You were saying? |
Alice Katsuko
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
12
|
Posted - 2011.10.11 05:05:00 -
[8] - Quote
Link to where the tracking speed reduction was announced, please?
So far the only officially announced change to fighters involves increasing their signature resolution* to 400m, which is identical to the scan resolution of sentry drones. So fighters should not have significant issues hitting battleships.
*Note that signature resolution affects a turret's chance to hit the target. It's not the same thing as signature radius, which is an object's size. Fighter signature radius will remain unaffected, so fighters will not be more vulnerable to bombs. |
Handsome Hussein
23
|
Posted - 2011.10.11 05:08:00 -
[9] - Quote
Man, they're coming out of the woodwork! How long will this flood of tears last?
Leaves only the fresh scent of pine. |
Ciel Dunois
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.11 05:09:00 -
[10] - Quote
Alice Katsuko wrote:Link to where the tracking speed reduction was announced, please?
So far the only officially announced change to fighters involves increasing their signature resolution* to 400m, which is identical to the scan resolution of sentry drones. So fighters should not have significant issues hitting battleships.
*Note that signature resolution affects a turret's chance to hit the target. It's not the same thing as signature radius, which is an object's size. Fighter signature radius will remain unaffected, so fighters will not be more vulnerable to bombs.
Problem is that a firbolg fighter orbits the target at a range of 1500m and it orbits at the velocity of 280m/s.
The fighter has 0.1 rad/sec, meaning that the fighter will destroy its own tracking by orbiting.
The 125m sig resolution compensated for that so it could hit battleships and battle cruisers, but with 400m that's not the case anymore. |
Sin Meng
Creative Assembly
10
|
Posted - 2011.10.11 05:11:00 -
[11] - Quote
Handsome ******* wrote:Man, they're coming out of the woodwork! How long will this flood of tears last?
The tears, they fall like rain!
Elements of the past and the future combining to make something not quite as good as either. |
Large Collidable Object
morons.
344
|
Posted - 2011.10.11 05:12:00 -
[12] - Quote
Obsidian Hawk wrote: If you have issues, post with your main
As the CEO of morons, I have to tell you that you've just lost the privilege to call others morons.
morons-áare recruiting. We're good at breeding! |
Cpt Fina
The Tuskers
25
|
Posted - 2011.10.11 05:15:00 -
[13] - Quote
Aren't regular carriers supposed to be able to damage battlehip-sized targets. I agree on nerfing supercaps but I've always considered the carrier as the anti-BS capital ship.
As others have pointed out, you should test this and then post it in the official feedbackthread. |
PyroTech03
Legion of Darkwind
Order of the Void
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.11 05:15:00 -
[14] - Quote
Ciel Dunois wrote:Fighters will have their tracking nerf more than 3 times with the increase of resolution from 125 to 400.
Now by itself is not a problem, but you gotta remember that fighters orbit their target at 1km, meaning you're going to need high tracking with fighters don't.
That means that fighters will no longer be able to hit STATIONARY BATTLESHIPS.
In order to hit with fighters you will need to target paint battleships, but at that point a fighter bomber will out dps a fighter on battleships.
If you want to defend against subcaps you're better off using heavy or sentry drones. For Capitals and up you use Fighter Bombers.
Fighters are now pointless.
For a carrier fighters will have little use, you're better off using regular drones now. No point of getting a carrier to fight against other capital ships which will tear it apart.
Now that i've said that its time to sell my fighters and fill my carrier with tech 2 heavies and sentries.
Umm...they won't be able to carry t2 heavies and sentries. The bay will only hold fighters and bombers now.
Way to read only part of it :P |
Thomas Abernathy
Viziam
Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.11 05:18:00 -
[15] - Quote
PyroTech03 wrote:Ciel Dunois wrote:Fighters will have their tracking nerf more than 3 times with the increase of resolution from 125 to 400.
Now by itself is not a problem, but you gotta remember that fighters orbit their target at 1km, meaning you're going to need high tracking with fighters don't.
That means that fighters will no longer be able to hit STATIONARY BATTLESHIPS.
In order to hit with fighters you will need to target paint battleships, but at that point a fighter bomber will out dps a fighter on battleships.
If you want to defend against subcaps you're better off using heavy or sentry drones. For Capitals and up you use Fighter Bombers.
Fighters are now pointless.
For a carrier fighters will have little use, you're better off using regular drones now. No point of getting a carrier to fight against other capital ships which will tear it apart.
Now that i've said that its time to sell my fighters and fill my carrier with tech 2 heavies and sentries. Umm...they won't be able to carry t2 heavies and sentries. The bay will only hold fighters and bombers now. Way to read only part of it :P
You should try the same, he's talking CARRIER, Not Super...
And ya, Carriers are no longer worth a crap either, other than for hauling....
|
Headerman
Quovis
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
180
|
Posted - 2011.10.11 05:23:00 -
[16] - Quote
PyroTech03 wrote:Ciel Dunois wrote:Fighters will have their tracking nerf more than 3 times with the increase of resolution from 125 to 400.
Now by itself is not a problem, but you gotta remember that fighters orbit their target at 1km, meaning you're going to need high tracking with fighters don't.
That means that fighters will no longer be able to hit STATIONARY BATTLESHIPS.
In order to hit with fighters you will need to target paint battleships, but at that point a fighter bomber will out dps a fighter on battleships.
If you want to defend against subcaps you're better off using heavy or sentry drones. For Capitals and up you use Fighter Bombers.
Fighters are now pointless.
For a carrier fighters will have little use, you're better off using regular drones now. No point of getting a carrier to fight against other capital ships which will tear it apart.
Now that i've said that its time to sell my fighters and fill my carrier with tech 2 heavies and sentries. Umm...they won't be able to carry t2 heavies and sentries. The bay will only hold fighters and bombers now. Way to read only part of it :P
Oh jesus, he said CARRIERS. Not super carriers. Carriers are not being nerfed. Super carriers are, and fighters are.
When i am out and about with my carriers, i don't use fighters anyway, am always a cap/RR bunny anyway, with a flight of lights to ***** on some nice KM's \o/
[img]http://i53.tinypic.com/bebnf8.jpg[/img] |
Sir Substance
Tactical Knightmare
50
|
Posted - 2011.10.11 05:24:00 -
[17] - Quote
This was my concern as well when I saw this. In the end though, carriers are meant to have support fleets. They are meant to act as a logistics powerhouse, not direct DPS.
If you are bringing a carrier, bring some ships with target painters in the fleet, and assign fighters to them. Extra DPS for those ships. Sounds fine and balanced to me.
OTOH, if a single target painter isnt enough to allow a BS sized target to be hit, and it becomes necessary to bring extreme ewar to make them effective, we have a problem, as fighters ARE meant to be effective against battleships. |
Renan Ruivo
Hipernova
Vera Cruz Alliance
109
|
Posted - 2011.10.11 05:24:00 -
[18] - Quote
PyroTech03 wrote:Ciel Dunois wrote:Fighters will have their tracking nerf more than 3 times with the increase of resolution from 125 to 400.
Now by itself is not a problem, but you gotta remember that fighters orbit their target at 1km, meaning you're going to need high tracking with fighters don't.
That means that fighters will no longer be able to hit STATIONARY BATTLESHIPS.
In order to hit with fighters you will need to target paint battleships, but at that point a fighter bomber will out dps a fighter on battleships.
If you want to defend against subcaps you're better off using heavy or sentry drones. For Capitals and up you use Fighter Bombers.
Fighters are now pointless.
For a carrier fighters will have little use, you're better off using regular drones now. No point of getting a carrier to fight against other capital ships which will tear it apart.
Now that i've said that its time to sell my fighters and fill my carrier with tech 2 heavies and sentries. Umm...they won't be able to carry t2 heavies and sentries. The bay will only hold fighters and bombers now. Way to read only part of it :P
Supercarriers wont. Normal carriers will.
Sometimes the only difference between a budding genius and a blooming idiot is where they chose to take a stand. |
Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
342
|
Posted - 2011.10.11 05:29:00 -
[19] - Quote
So fighters will not be able to even hit stationary battleships... You better tell them immediately.
It will be horrible if their nerf of capital ship damage against sub-cap ships ends up nerfing capital ships' ability to damage sub-cap ships, the travesty.
84,000 AUR ($420) spent on NeX store for Troll and Profit. |
Ciel Dunois
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.11 05:29:00 -
[20] - Quote
Sir Substance wrote:This was my concern as well when I saw this. In the end though, carriers are meant to have support fleets. They are meant to act as a logistics powerhouse, not direct DPS.
If you are bringing a carrier, bring some ships with target painters in the fleet, and assign fighters to them. Extra DPS for those ships. Sounds fine and balanced to me.
OTOH, if a single target painter isnt enough to allow a BS sized target to be hit, and it becomes necessary to bring extreme ewar to make them effective, we have a problem, as fighters ARE meant to be effective against battleships.
The problem is that a single painter won't be enough. You will need atleast two for fighters to hit sufficiently. |
Jada Maroo
Mysterium Astrometrics
BRABODEN
213
|
Posted - 2011.10.11 05:31:00 -
[21] - Quote
I like how virtually none of the responses actually attempt to mathematically counter the point made by the OP. If fighters are in fact made useless by this change, there's a problem and CCP needs to be made aware quickly.
Though I can tell you from experience on Sisi, CCP seems to be oblivious to these things. Bugs will get reported on the test server repeatedly and CCP will deploy it anyway and then once people scream on in the general forum they'll finally get around to fixing it, saying it slipped through testing.
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:So fighters will not be able to even hit stationary battleships... You better tell them immediately.
It will be horrible if their nerf of capital ship damage against sub-cap ships ends up nerfing capital ships' ability to damage sub-cap ships, the travesty.
You do understand the difference between fighters and fighter-bombers, right? If you make fighters useless against anything but capital ships, why would you ever use them over fighter bombers, which are specifically made for cap ships?
What the OP is saying is that there is no role for regular fighter drones to fill anymore. |
Teamosil
Good Time Family Band Solution
8
|
Posted - 2011.10.11 05:39:00 -
[22] - Quote
Ciel Dunois wrote:Fighters will have their tracking nerf more than 3 times with the increase of resolution from 125 to 400.
...
That means that fighters will no longer be able to hit STATIONARY BATTLESHIPS.
Resolution and tracking are different things. You can't equate one to the other. Tracking affects how likely you are to hit the target, resolution affects how much damage you do when you do hit. In practice, when you have guns grouped up, they seem very similar since both low tracking speeds or high resolutions mean you have a hard time killing small ships, but it's an important difference. You resolution can never get so bad that you won't damage your target at all where tracking can get that bad.
The damage reduction from having a large signature resolution only kicks in when your resolution is larger than the target's radius. Battleships are all over 400, so your ability to damage battleships will not be affected at all. What it will mean is that you'd have a slightly harder time killing cruisers with fighters and a very hard time killing frigates with them. So, you'll want to stick with fighters for battleships, then go to smaller drones for smaller ships.
PyroTech03 wrote:Umm...they won't be able to carry t2 heavies and sentries. The bay will only hold fighters and bombers now.
Way to read only part of it :P
No, that was only about supercapitals. Carriers will still get the full range of drones. |
DarkAegix
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
92
|
Posted - 2011.10.11 05:40:00 -
[23] - Quote
Oh noes, your supercarrier can no longer solo 5000 battleships. |
Renan Ruivo
Hipernova
Vera Cruz Alliance
109
|
Posted - 2011.10.11 05:44:00 -
[24] - Quote
OP might have a very valid point. For more info, check some of the information on this thread:
http://eve-search.com/thread/893748
Sometimes the only difference between a budding genius and a blooming idiot is where they chose to take a stand. |
Parsee789
Immaterial and Missing Power
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.11 05:44:00 -
[25] - Quote
I like people here haven't trained reading comprehension I. He's talking about carrier NOT supercarriers. Fighters have trouble hitting cruisers, now they will have trouble hitting battleships. |
Zirse
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
94
|
Posted - 2011.10.11 06:32:00 -
[26] - Quote
death2allsupercaps and everything, but I have to agree with the OP.
Give supercarriers the fighter sig nerf if you have to, but keep carriers as they are. They feel perfectly balanced at the moment, disregarding supercaps, I'd like to see them stay that way. |
BLACK-STAR
128
|
Posted - 2011.10.11 06:48:00 -
[27] - Quote
despite the morons and before nerf, the fighters are, still till this day... useless. @Obsidian Hawk @DarkAegix btw you're both idiots. biomass yourselves now.
Fighters, true, they can't hit anything. They certainly do deserve much more respect now with the nerfs.
[img]http://www.imgbox.de/users/S7AR/star.png[/img] |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
436
|
Posted - 2011.10.11 06:50:00 -
[28] - Quote
Teamosil wrote:Resolution and tracking are different things. You can't equate one to the other. No, they're not and yes you can.
Sig res is a direct multiplier to tracking and an increase in sig res is the exact same thing as a decrease in tracking.
Quote:Tracking affects how likely you are to hit the target, resolution affects how much damage you do when you do hit. No. Both affect how likely you are to hit your target.
For reference, the relevant part of the formula is this:
ChanceToHit = 0.5^[ ( angular velocity ++ tracking +ù sig resolution ++ sig radius)-¦ ]
Notice how we're only dealing with multiplication and division in there, so everything works like a multiplier to everything else. Halving the tracking speed has the exact same effect as doubling the signature resolution. Trippling the signature radius has the exact same effect as trippling the tracking. Halving the angular velocity has the exact same effect as halving the signature resolution etc.
Quote:You resolution can never get so bad that you won't damage your target at all where tracking can get that bad. Yes it can, for the same reason that the tracking can GÇö because they are all mixed in together. The only unique factor is the angular velocity, which is the only number that can be zero, and which in turn can give you a 100 percent hit chance.
Quote:The damage reduction from having a large signature resolution only kicks in when your resolution is larger than the target's radius. There is no damage reduction for turrets. You are confusing them with missiles.
GÇöGÇöGÇö
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
GÇö Karath Piki-á |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
436
|
Posted - 2011.10.11 06:51:00 -
[29] - Quote
for fucks sake, forums 
GÇöGÇöGÇö
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
GÇö Karath Piki-á |
Renan Ruivo
Hipernova
Vera Cruz Alliance
109
|
Posted - 2011.10.11 07:06:00 -
[30] - Quote
It is all so complex that i do believe that it is quite possible that CCP got confused in their own math. I want a supercarrier nerf as well but that is basically making them completely useless for anything other then shooting other capitals.
Which is fine.. but the same goal can also be achieved by removing normal fighters from them.
Carriers are only going to be glorified battleships, whose main use will be for heavy drones.
Sometimes the only difference between a budding genius and a blooming idiot is where they chose to take a stand. |
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