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Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
260
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Posted - 2013.02.10 16:49:00 -
[1] - Quote
I have question for CCP or anyone that have some insight of the matter at hand,
It is about Vargur and huge difference that ship have in fittng t2 weapons like rest of marauders.
Picture examples below:
Paladin
Kronos
Vargur
Now to recap
Vargur is t2 ship that cant fit its t2 weapons..only one that cant,i would like to know reasoning in this what is so utterly different about this ship that is making it so OP or whatever it is that warrant so horrible gimp in ship PG?
Remember we are talking PG rig + ~600-700 mill in implants just to fail to fit guns?
I mean i would take 700mill in implants to fit the ship(not rly i still dont understand the need),but at least it would be passable as any other ship.
Give me yours thoughts about this.
Edit,generic same fitting used. Leeloo Dallas Multipass - "Big bada boom"
http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/rbmgtGx.jpg Ninja over Black-ops. |
hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
62
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Posted - 2013.02.10 17:08:00 -
[2] - Quote
Vargur has 50% falloff bonus, which gives pretty sick range to autocannons. Use them. |
Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
289
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Posted - 2013.02.10 17:37:00 -
[3] - Quote
has anyone mentioned to you that an AC vargur gets the same sort of range in falloff that an AM using rail kronos gets in optimal?
also shield tanked paladin? fit tachys and a LAR
otherwise yes the vargur cannot fit the largest t2 guns without help.. there are a few ships like this T2 tachys to t1 bs, a few of the t2 artiy ships
so wat? Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
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Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
260
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Posted - 2013.02.10 17:51:00 -
[4] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:Vargur has 50% falloff bonus, which gives pretty sick range to autocannons. Use them.
Awesome that rly doesn't explain why is it completely useless with long range configuration like other marauders,more to the point any other ship that have falloff bonus don't suffer pg gimp ie it can fit both type of weapons..like machariel and even basic t1 non pirate ships.
Also your comment shred non light on an issue here,and issue is why?
Leeloo Dallas Multipass - "Big bada boom"
http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/rbmgtGx.jpg Ninja over Black-ops. |
Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
260
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Posted - 2013.02.10 17:58:00 -
[5] - Quote
Kusum Fawn wrote:has anyone mentioned to you that an AC vargur gets the same sort of range in falloff that an AM using rail kronos gets in optimal?
also shield tanked paladin? fit tachys and a LAR
otherwise yes the vargur cannot fit the largest t2 guns without help.. there are a few ships like this T2 tachys to t1 bs, a few of the t2 artiy ships
so wat?
Not rly it don't,rail kroni will do more dps as well as AM is not only ammo it can use and by then your point is irrelevant.(like try to hit something with ac @ 200km)
I can understand t1 ship that cant fit t2 but we are talking marauders and huge difference in fitting ie while u can use both config on rest of em u cant on Vargur why?
So what? rly Leeloo Dallas Multipass - "Big bada boom"
http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/rbmgtGx.jpg Ninja over Black-ops. |
BadAssMcKill
Ghost Headquarters The Ghost Army
111
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Posted - 2013.02.10 18:01:00 -
[6] - Quote
Mina Sebiestar wrote:hmskrecik wrote:Vargur has 50% falloff bonus, which gives pretty sick range to autocannons. Use them. Awesome that rly doesn't explain why is it completely useless with long range configuration like other marauders,more to the point any other ship that have falloff bonus don't suffer pg gimp ie it can fit both type of weapons..like machariel and even basic t1 non pirate ships. Also your comment shred non light on an issue here,and issue is why?
Pretty sure 4.2 optimal/70km falloff doesn't count as not long ranged even if your damage decreases in falloff Starships were meant to fly~ |
Kasutra
Tailor Company Hashashin Cartel
139
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Posted - 2013.02.10 18:10:00 -
[7] - Quote
The Vargur has bonuses singly and obviously favoring one of the racial weapon gun systems - in this case being the short range weapons. The Golem does this too, if you want to compare to other races. Not that I recommend that comparison. The Kronos and the Paladin are kind of similar to one another, but the Vargur and the Golem are different beasts entirely.
If you really really want to fit cross-bonus and start blapping with an Artillery Vargur, put on an RCU and fit 1200mms. You have the option. You could also put Cruises on a Golem. It's just a bad idea.
I'd say this was a problem were the AC Vargur not such a perfectly fine boat. |
Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
260
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 18:11:00 -
[8] - Quote
you could and you cant are two different matter i am sure you understand this. Leeloo Dallas Multipass - "Big bada boom"
http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/rbmgtGx.jpg Ninja over Black-ops. |
Kasutra
Tailor Company Hashashin Cartel
139
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Posted - 2013.02.10 18:13:00 -
[9] - Quote
Mina Sebiestar wrote:you could and you cant are two different matter i am sure you understand this. Yes, I do. Do you understand that you can fit Artillery to your Vargur? |
Orlacc
210
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Posted - 2013.02.10 18:15:00 -
[10] - Quote
Who would use artis on a Vargur?
This is like complaining a Mael doesn't hold as many drones as a Domi. |
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Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
260
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Posted - 2013.02.10 18:17:00 -
[11] - Quote
If you took time to look at pic linked you will understand that i cant without destroying the ship..also comparing 1200mm to 1400mm is..there is no comparison and even then for the sake of argument why RCU? Leeloo Dallas Multipass - "Big bada boom"
http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/rbmgtGx.jpg Ninja over Black-ops. |
Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
260
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 18:18:00 -
[12] - Quote
Orlacc wrote:Who would use artis on a Vargur?
This is like complaining a Mael doesn't hold as many drones as a Domi. Because it is spaceship like rest of marauders that can thats why..it is like you asked me why people use arty boats in pve or pvp..and i lost you at dominix remark completely
Also you didn't answer my question ie u dont know why. Leeloo Dallas Multipass - "Big bada boom"
http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/rbmgtGx.jpg Ninja over Black-ops. |
Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
291
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Posted - 2013.02.10 19:19:00 -
[13] - Quote
Can you explain the reasoning behind the paladin fitting that you linked there? its lacking in its racial tank type and you would note that tach fits there also kind of dont work.
however, there are fittings that you can do to fit 1400mm aritlleries, that reach 200km. with t2 gear (before implants) are you arguing that a ship does more dps at any given range then another? or that a fitting is possible/not possible? I cant really tell what your issue is anymore other then you dont like to fit vargurs intelligently. Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
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stoicfaux
2322
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Posted - 2013.02.10 19:30:00 -
[14] - Quote
With such a huge falloff bonus, it's obvious that the ship designers were focused on ACs, therefore having the powergrid to mount artillery wasn't a requirement. /rp
Given the reduced DPS of artillery, I'm not really sure why anyone would bother with artillery on a Vargur, unless there was some need for an alpha strike?
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Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
260
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Posted - 2013.02.10 19:37:00 -
[15] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:With such a huge falloff bonus, it's obvious that the ship designers were focused on ACs, therefore having the powergrid to mount artillery wasn't a requirement. /rp
Given the reduced DPS of artillery, I'm not really sure why anyone would bother with artillery on a Vargur, unless there was some need for an alpha strike?
Can u tell the same thing about mach?
You are correct Arty is Alpha and if you took any situation except decade old pve missions where mindless red dots without tank,tactics,rr or booster are crawling toward you to get killed..then Arty boats become needed and very much effective
Like pvp and wh content as well as incursions where arty boats are staple ship in all reality.
Marauders are lacking because eve moved past wow stile missions to certain extent and they(marauders) stayed at that lvl and Vargur...Vargur have another problem...Vargur just cant. Leeloo Dallas Multipass - "Big bada boom"
http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/rbmgtGx.jpg Ninja over Black-ops. |
Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
291
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Posted - 2013.02.10 19:40:00 -
[16] - Quote
Mina Sebiestar wrote:Vargur just cant.
what? Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
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Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
260
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 19:42:00 -
[17] - Quote
Kusum Fawn wrote:Can you explain the reasoning behind the paladin fitting that you linked there? its lacking in its racial tank type and you would note that tach fits there also kind of dont work.
however, there are fittings that you can do to fit 1400mm aritlleries, that reach 200km. with t2 gear (before implants) are you arguing that a ship does more dps at any given range then another? or that a fitting is possible/not possible? I cant really tell what your issue is anymore other then you dont like to fit vargurs intelligently.
What doesn't work it can fit em ,it is not for stock missioning.
i just use same mods to make comparison it can be rr and can do rr.
Leeloo Dallas Multipass - "Big bada boom"
http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/rbmgtGx.jpg Ninja over Black-ops. |
Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
291
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 20:44:00 -
[18] - Quote
[Vargur, Vargur fit]
Reactor Control Unit II Reactor Control Unit II Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Experimental 100MN Afterburner I Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large Energy Transfer Array II
Large Ancillary Current Router I Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Not that i would ever actually try to use tihs fitting, it does indeed "work" Locks to 224 km 6927volley w 418 dps @124 + 85.3 km using temor
I still dont know what you are complaining about. Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
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Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
260
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 20:54:00 -
[19] - Quote
you are wasting 3 slots on pg that's terrible,you are missing at least 2 tracking mods,you dont have dmg control and u will got alphad and everybody will laugh.
And why you dont have dose things...because you are wasting slots on PG mods!!
And you clearly dont know about what i am talking about. Leeloo Dallas Multipass - "Big bada boom"
http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/rbmgtGx.jpg Ninja over Black-ops. |
stoicfaux
2322
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 21:39:00 -
[20] - Quote
Mina Sebiestar wrote:you are wasting 3 slots on pg that's terrible,you are missing at least 2 tracking mods,you dont have dmg control/extenders and u will got alphad and everybody will laugh.
And why you dont have dose things...because you are wasting slots on PG mods!!
And you clearly dont know about what i am talking about. So... you're talking about using a PvE focused boat in PvP. Or you're maybe you're talking about using a Vargur instead of a Mach in PvP, because the Vargur is cheaper? Or you're just adding new assumptions/criteria to your OP as we go along to either troll everyone or just make yourself look less than intelligent?
Meh.
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Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
262
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Posted - 2013.02.10 21:52:00 -
[21] - Quote
@ stoicfaux
in my first post i asked a question and linked pictures to show about what i talk about but thread instead turn in my vargur works as AC boat in missions..who the hell asked you does your vargur work or not?
It can,t fit both type of guns that's the point(feel free to point me in ship description where it say it is AC boat only) other marauders can,so far in game that i know about this is biggest fitting imbalance i found..and all i got in response is my vargur work with AC!?!! and that is answer to why..seriously?
Marauders are under performing in PVE(missions and everything else pve) and PVP to pirate counterparts and that is ok?,on top of that Vargur cant even use various weapon type it is lock in AC and machariel is king there PVE or PVP,
And answer to that is Vargur is fine.
Also ship having an extender instead of booster isn't PVP boat LOL. Leeloo Dallas Multipass - "Big bada boom"
http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/rbmgtGx.jpg Ninja over Black-ops. |
ACE McFACE
Holy Amarrian Battlemonk I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
1122
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Posted - 2013.02.10 22:41:00 -
[22] - Quote
What everyone is saying is you CAN fit artillery to the Vargur, you just need fitting mods. As to why, you'll have to ask CCP, not randoms on the internet, but I assume the answer will be the same you got here "You can, but why would you want to?" DUST514 isn't on PC because CCP wants 2 different communities influencing each other, not people tabbing out to give themselves Orbital Strikes. (Also they don't want to cannibalise their existing playerbase) |
Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
292
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 22:46:00 -
[23] - Quote
The simple answer is No one knows what you are talking about.
I am here to help, I really am, but being rude and stupid on the forums is not the way to get anything useful.
What kind of fitting are you looking for? Something that can fit t2 1400 artillery cannons? or a non-aplha-able ship? One can be achieved, with t2 mods, the other cannot. We all know that the Vargur and several other ships cant the largest of their long range weapons.
We all know that Marauders simply arent as good at PVP as other ships.
We also all know that Pirate and Navy Variants of ships are very close to or better then Marauders.
However i havent seen evidence that the Vindicator is better then the Kronos or that the Rattlesnake is better then the Golem. Though i hear that the CNR is still very close to the Golem. The navy mega is nowhere near the Kronos.
The Macharial is a nice boat, but i havent, In my own experience, seen it to be better then the Vargur for solo mission work. ( if i wish to do any salvaging)
We all know that many ships need fitting mods and or implants to do the things that we want them to do.
Your other fitting examples are terrible.
Marauders are already geared more towards PVE as per CCP devs searchable responses about those ships. So claiming that a ship is bad for PVP is a fairly useless complaint. We already know this.
What exactly are you whining about? Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
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Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
262
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Posted - 2013.02.10 22:47:00 -
[24] - Quote
Because pve evolved and ppl that have shiet ton of isk can use it in pvp as well(where arty's are viable in certan situations) but ship is t2 and it is gimped worse than t1 one
Machariel / Vindicatro / Nightmare shouldn't be top end ships or to put it from another angle,there should be more choices than 3 ships.
Also why would you is because it should..that simple..rest of it can,there is no ship in game that is locked like this i want to know why...
Leeloo Dallas Multipass - "Big bada boom"
http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/rbmgtGx.jpg Ninja over Black-ops. |
Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
292
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Posted - 2013.02.10 22:52:00 -
[25] - Quote
My freighter would love to disagree. Its an industrial type ship and it cant even fit cargo expanders or cargo rigs. Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
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Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
262
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Posted - 2013.02.10 23:01:00 -
[26] - Quote
Kusum Fawn wrote:My freighter would love to disagree. Its an industrial type ship and it cant even fit cargo expanders or cargo rigs.
I didn't ask for your help just to make this clear.
I do apologies if i stated that your fit suck because it does i like to be direct and again i didn't ask you for fit.
You cant help(nor need to) you don't know what i am talking about nor u ever used Marauders in any situation that is not ship spinning,missions or mining.
This have nothing to do with pve against pvp pirate ships or pve ship and everything to FACT that one of 4 marauders CANT fit weapons that rest of em could and considering it is kinda of investment in time/skills it should.
And i would like to hear from CCP why is that because i cant make link more than everyone here say and that is meh it work ok with AC.
Again i apologies but i don't think we have anything more to say to each other on this subject. Leeloo Dallas Multipass - "Big bada boom"
http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/rbmgtGx.jpg Ninja over Black-ops. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
1126
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Posted - 2013.02.10 23:29:00 -
[27] - Quote
Hey everyone,
It seems quite simple. The OP is just trying to show that of the 3 turret based Marauders, all can fit the largest, most power hungry guns except the Vargur.
A Kronos can fit 4 425MM railguns, which alone puts it at 55.44% PG A Paladin can fit 4 Tach 2's, which alone puts it at 88% PG The Vargur, with 4 1400 Howitzer 2's, hits 130.33% PG
That is just guns.
Yes the fit examples the OP chose are stupid IMO. But they are just showing that the paladin and kronos can be fully fit with the largest available guns, while the vargur goes way over PG with just the guns and nothing else.
Now I can't tell you what this means in terms of usefulness. In many circles I always hear how the vargur is one of the best of the marauders, despite the fact that it cant easily fit 1400mm arties. |
Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
262
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Posted - 2013.02.10 23:35:00 -
[28] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:Hey everyone,
It seems quite simple. The OP is just trying to show that of the 3 turret based Marauders, all can fit the largest, most power hungry guns except the Vargur.
A Kronos can fit 4 425MM railguns, which alone puts it at 55.44% PG A Paladin can fit 4 Tach 2's, which alone puts it at 88% PG The Vargur, with 4 1400 Howitzer 2's, hits 130.33% PG
That is just guns.
Yes the fit examples the OP chose are stupid IMO. But they are just showing that the paladin and kronos can be fully fit with the largest available guns, while the vargur goes way over PG with just the guns and nothing else.
Now I can't tell you what this means in terms of usefulness. In many circles I always hear how the vargur is one of the best of the marauders, despite the fact that it cant easily fit 1400mm arties.
welcome and thanks for another angle look on this,i could easily left both kroni and pali with just guns and made same point and avoid all this discussion of why is pali fitted like this or that...my mistake i counted ppl will see it is not a point.
And to your last point i don't think vargur would become uber ship if it is able to fit t2 artys...it would just become able to fit them..and that is EvE you have options not prearranged limits,that is your part to choose will you use AC/ARTY/or neuts/bombs what ever..it is like most advanced battleship(:P) after all Leeloo Dallas Multipass - "Big bada boom"
http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/rbmgtGx.jpg Ninja over Black-ops. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Atrocitas
2962
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Posted - 2013.02.10 23:47:00 -
[29] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:Hey everyone,
It seems quite simple. The OP is just trying to show that of the 3 turret based Marauders, all can fit the largest, most power hungry guns except the Vargur.
A Kronos can fit 4 425MM railguns, which alone puts it at 55.44% PG A Paladin can fit 4 Tach 2's, which alone puts it at 88% PG The Vargur, with 4 1400 Howitzer 2's, hits 130.33% PG
That is just guns.
Yes the fit examples the OP chose are stupid IMO. But they are just showing that the paladin and kronos can be fully fit with the largest available guns, while the vargur goes way over PG with just the guns and nothing else.
Now I can't tell you what this means in terms of usefulness. In many circles I always hear how the vargur is one of the best of the marauders, despite the fact that it cant easily fit 1400mm arties.
The OPs example with Tachs could incite a thread similar to this one if one were wanting to be a giant douchebag troll (as the OP is in this thread). So I guess it's best to just say that the Kronos is the only one that can really fit the longest range turrets?
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Atrocitas
2962
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Posted - 2013.02.10 23:53:00 -
[30] - Quote
Mina Sebiestar wrote: in my first post i asked a question and linked pictures to show about what i talk about but thread instead turn in my vargur works as AC boat in missions..who the hell asked you does your vargur work or not?
It can,t fit both type of guns that's the point(feel free to point me in ship description where it say it is AC boat only) other marauders can,so far in game that i know about this is biggest fitting imbalance i found..and all i got in response is my vargur work with AC!?!! and that is answer to why..seriously?
First, let us agree that it works fine as an AC boat in missions. More than fine, really - it's trivially better than a Rail Kronos (due to tracking, damage type, and range) and Tach Paladin (due to damage type). It's arguably better than the Golem (damage application to smaller targets, lack of painter fiddling, and better range). So, when AC fit it's better than all the other Marauders in their optimal configuration.
That means that you have another reason to want more grid on the Vargur - and that reason is either due to ammo consumption (maybe in WH space?) or due to you wanting to fit more things to an AC Vargur. The argument that you should be able to fit artillery just for the sake of fitting artillery is fallacious and total bunk as far as game balance goes.
You do briefly make the claim that Marauders are under performing in PVE, but don't really back that claim up. Do you think this because of the Mach? That seems pretty niche (and potentially wrong) to me.
-Liang
Ed: I'm not trying to be a **** here, but could you use proper sentences and paragraphs in your response? Coherency of thought would also be greatly appreciated because my trollese is getting fairly weak in my old age. Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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