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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Core Researcher
Not You Fat Jesus
1
   |
Posted - 2013.02.14 14:02:00 -
[1] - Quote
hi,
I am here to suggest that the cost of ganking a freighter should be higher than the ~1bn ISK it currently is.
Looking at it for a freighter pilor's point of view:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
ship investment: ~1.3bn ISK
So immediately on gank the Freighter pilot loses ~300m in comparison to the gank fleet
(1.3bn ship - 1bn gankfleet).
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
cargo: as things currently stand freight pilots are aware that anything worth over a bill puts a target on them. Therefore your cargo will always be worth 1bn ISK or less. Ive seen courier packages smaller than a pea with 1bn ISK collateral.
so now on gank the Freighter pilot loses ~1.3bn in comparison to the gank fleet
((1bn collateral + 1.3bn ship) - (1bn gankfleet))
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
gankfleet: if the freighter cargo drops and the capacity to scoop the cargo is there the cost of the gankfleet could be covered. To pick a number out of the air lets say an average 500m drops from a Freighter.
we are now looking at Freighter pilot loses ~1.8bn in comparison to the gank fleet
(((1bn collateral + 1.3bn ship) - (1bn gankfleet)) + 500m dropped)))
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Dont pilot what you can't afford to lose.
I agree with this statement. I think freighters should be gankable. My issue is the cost of ganking one to the parties involved. Freighters should be gankable at a cost that is equivalent to the minimum comparative cost to the freigher pilot.
using the numbers above the average gankfleet should cost 2.3bn ISK to put together.
 |
baltec1
Bat Country
5216
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 14:05:00 -
[2] - Quote
Its 2.5 billion. |
Core Researcher
Not You Fat Jesus
1
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 14:08:00 -
[3] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Its 2.5 billion.
The cost of the average gankfleet?
ah.
Well if this is true I just wasted like 10 minutes writing this hehe. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3820
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 14:10:00 -
[4] - Quote
I am more interested about JFs.
Some guys keep telling me I am mad flying a JF around (including hi sec) because it's profitable to gank even when empty.
Is this a gross idiocy or not? I admit I have no experience about JFs salvage, I only have a lot about barges, exhumers and destroyers salvage 
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
De'Veldrin
East India Ore Trade
The East India Co.
968
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 14:12:00 -
[5] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:I am more interested about JFs. Some guys keep telling me I am mad flying a JF around (including hi sec) because it's profitable to gank even when empty. Is this a gross idiocy or not? I admit I have no experience about JFs salvage, I only have a lot about barges, exhumers and destroyers salvage
I suppose it depends on your definition of profitable. If you mean strictly ISK lost on both sides, then yes, the gank squad will always come out on top - coupled with the fact that the insurance payout on a JF barely covers the cost of the T1 version of the hull, and the pilot of the JF stands to lose quite a bit more than the gankers.
The Margin Trading Scam: If you fell for it, it's your own damned fault.
Malcanis for CSM 8
Eve Online: The full-contact sport for your brain. |
baltec1
Bat Country
5216
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 14:13:00 -
[6] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:I am more interested about JFs. Some guys keep telling me I am mad flying a JF around (including hi sec) because it's profitable to gank even when empty. Is this a gross idiocy or not? I admit I have no experience about JFs salvage, I only have a lot about barges, exhumers and destroyers salvage
Utter foolishness. There is no way thats profitable to gank without anything in the hold. |
March rabbit
player corp n1
536
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 14:16:00 -
[7] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Core Researcher wrote:hi,
I am here to suggest that the cost of ganking a freighter should be higher than the ~1bn ISK it currently is.
Its currently 2.5 billion.
i've read about "ganking standard": 15 tornadoes. Is it right? |
Hammer Borne
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
39
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 14:17:00 -
[8] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:I am more interested about JFs. Some guys keep telling me I am mad flying a JF around (including hi sec) because it's profitable to gank even when empty. Is this a gross idiocy or not? I admit I have no experience about JFs salvage, I only have a lot about barges, exhumers and destroyers salvage Utter foolishness. There is no way thats profitable to gank without anything in the hold.
That depends on the average value of tears on the open market. 7bil loss would create a harvest-able tidal wave. |
baltec1
Bat Country
5217
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 14:18:00 -
[9] - Quote
Core Researcher wrote:baltec1 wrote:Its 2.5 billion. The cost of the average gankfleet? ah. Well if this is true I just wasted like 10 minutes writing this hehe.
No thats the lowest value that is gank worthy. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3820
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 14:20:00 -
[10] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:I am more interested about JFs. Some guys keep telling me I am mad flying a JF around (including hi sec) because it's profitable to gank even when empty. Is this a gross idiocy or not? I admit I have no experience about JFs salvage, I only have a lot about barges, exhumers and destroyers salvage Utter foolishness. There is no way thats profitable to gank without anything in the hold.
What value do JFs usually drop as salvage? I suppose the maximum value that can be ferried would be equal to:
Salvage + contents + gank ships value
and in this case the value has to be quite good since JFs tank is better than freighters.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3820
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 14:20:00 -
[11] - Quote
Hammer Borne wrote:baltec1 wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:I am more interested about JFs. Some guys keep telling me I am mad flying a JF around (including hi sec) because it's profitable to gank even when empty. Is this a gross idiocy or not? I admit I have no experience about JFs salvage, I only have a lot about barges, exhumers and destroyers salvage Utter foolishness. There is no way thats profitable to gank without anything in the hold. That depends on the average value of tears on the open market. 7bil loss would create a harvest-able tidal wave.
Not really, that's about 5 of my trades worth of loss.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Mai Khumm
Carbon Circle
Tactical Narcotics Team
459
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 14:34:00 -
[12] - Quote
Posting in an obvious "CCP, please patch stupid" thread.
They (tried) to patch stupid with the mining barges, now it's moved onto Freighters.
I have an awesome idea!
Why not pull your heads out of each others asses and fly smart.
Like bring ECM and Logistical support.
Not put billions of ISK worth of crap into it's hold.
Oh, that's too complicated?
OK then, keep feeding the gankers the killmail and loot, fly like complete morons.
Then go on the forums and constantly post over and over again, begging CCP to patch stupid...
*insert witty saying here*
twitter - @AzamiNevinyrall |
HeavensAngel
Falcon Advanced Industries
9
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 14:44:00 -
[13] - Quote
Mai Khumm wrote:Posting in an obvious "CCP, please patch stupid" thread.
They (tried) to patch stupid with the mining barges, now it's moved onto Freighters.
I have an awesome idea!
Why not pull your heads out of each others asses and fly smart.
Like bring ECM and Logistical support.
Not put billions of ISK worth of crap into it's hold.
Oh, that's too complicated?
OK then, keep feeding the gankers the killmail and loot, fly like complete morons.
Then go on the forums and constantly post over and over again, begging CCP to patch stupid...
wondering what ECM and Logistics will help when your freighter gets killed by an alpha strike ... but thats just my 2 cent |
Mc Scam
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
19
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 14:50:00 -
[14] - Quote
hi,
I am here to suggest that the cost of ganking a freighter should be lower than the ~1bn ISK it currently is.
Looking at it for a ganker pilor's point of view:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
ship investment: ~1bn ISK (according to OP)
So immediately on gank the Ganker fleet loses ~1bn, this does not include possible podkills and the consequences of killrights.
Should the freighter pop AND if the lootfairy indeed says 'YES' then the profit must be split among all members of the fleet. All this means that often, despite the huge time investment, gankers make a bigger loss than the freighter pilot who if he manages to escape even makes a profit due to selling killrights.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
loot: as things currently stand freighter pilots are aware that anything worth over a bill puts a target on them. Therefore their cargo will always be worth 1bn ISK or less. (according to OP, ofc there's a few special pinhatas flying around)
Unless you find one of the pinhatas there will be no profit to be made.(If we take OPs numbers)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
freighters: Freighter pilots make millions if not billions a day just hauling stuff around often putting the isk/h of gankers to shame. They can do so while beeing mostly afk and if they choose to they can reduce the risks of loss by a huge margin.
Meanwhile the gankers need to put alot of time, isk, effort and organization into ganking while often not beeing rewarded at all.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Don't get me wrong.
I think freighter pilots should be able to safeboat. My issue is the reward of ganking. Gankers should be rewarded in a way that meets the cost and all the work gankers put into setting up a gank.
Considering all this the cost of a gankfleet should be reduced atleast by half.
|
Abrazzar
777
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 14:53:00 -
[15] - Quote
Does the Stasis Web instant warp still work with freighters? If yes, then that is the way to play it safe.
Other than that, use alternative trade routes and collect your freight on a none-hub station before taking off. Needs more time and effort, you go more jumps and you can't just set destination and go, but it's less risky.
Also, don't autopilot. It's highly inefficient anyway, I rather go ice mining.
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
De'Veldrin
East India Ore Trade
The East India Co.
968
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 14:56:00 -
[16] - Quote
Abrazzar wrote:Does the Stasis Web instant warp still work with freighters? If yes, then that is the way to play it safe.
Yes - with double faction webs on a huginn, you can send a freighter into warp almost the second they decloak.
The Margin Trading Scam: If you fell for it, it's your own damned fault.
Malcanis for CSM 8
Eve Online: The full-contact sport for your brain. |
HollyShocker 2inthestink
State War Academy
Caldari State
148
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 15:01:00 -
[17] - Quote
Mai Khumm wrote:Posting in an obvious "CCP, please patch stupid" thread.
They (tried) to patch stupid with the mining barges, now it's moved onto Freighters.
I have an awesome idea!
Why not pull your heads out of each others asses and fly smart.
Like bring ECM and Logistical support.
Not put billions of ISK worth of crap into it's hold.
Oh, that's too complicated?
OK then, keep feeding the gankers the killmail and loot, fly like complete morons.
Then go on the forums and constantly post over and over again, begging CCP to patch stupid...
Yes because we all know Sheet never happens to good pilots or smart pilots. I dont care how smart you think you are or how carefull you may be it can happen. Its a simple case of math. The more frequent you do the same thing the greater the chance of something going wrong.
Fix the games broken mechanics (bumping) and you remove some of the risk. |
baltec1
Bat Country
5217
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 15:03:00 -
[18] - Quote
HeavensAngel wrote:
wondering what ECM and Logistics will help when your freighter gets killed by an alpha strike ... but thats just my 2 cent
People don't alpha frighters, theres a cheaper way to kill them. |
Mai Khumm
Carbon Circle
Tactical Narcotics Team
459
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 15:13:00 -
[19] - Quote
HeavensAngel wrote:Mai Khumm wrote:Posting in an obvious "CCP, please patch stupid" thread.
They (tried) to patch stupid with the mining barges, now it's moved onto Freighters.
I have an awesome idea!
Why not pull your heads out of each others asses and fly smart.
Like bring ECM and Logistical support.
Not put billions of ISK worth of crap into it's hold.
Oh, that's too complicated?
OK then, keep feeding the gankers the killmail and loot, fly like complete morons.
Then go on the forums and constantly post over and over again, begging CCP to patch stupid...
wondering what ECM and Logistics will help when your freighter gets killed by an alpha strike ... but thats just my 2 cent
I've done it several times.
*Looks at inventory and skillsheet, then personal losses.*
Looks like I'm a Freighter and JF pilot, with no losses.
*Checks former indy corps killboard*
Sees several kills.
Huh, looks like it works to me.
So there is a proven way to defend against Freighter ganking.
*insert witty saying here*
twitter - @AzamiNevinyrall |
Captain Tardbar
NEWB ALERT
93
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 15:29:00 -
[20] - Quote
Mc Scam wrote:hi,
I am here to suggest that the cost of ganking a freighter should be lower than the ~1bn ISK it currently is.
Looking at it for a ganker pilor's point of view:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
ship investment: ~1bn ISK (according to OP)
So immediately on gank the Ganker fleet loses ~1bn, this does not include possible podkills and the consequences of killrights.
Should the freighter pop AND if the lootfairy indeed says 'YES' then the profit must be split among all members of the fleet. All this means that often, despite the huge time investment, gankers make a bigger loss than the freighter pilot who if he manages to escape even makes a profit due to selling killrights.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
loot: as things currently stand freighter pilots are aware that anything worth over a bill puts a target on them. Therefore their cargo will always be worth 1bn ISK or less. (according to OP, ofc there's a few special pinhatas flying around)
Unless you find one of the pinhatas there will be no profit to be made.(If we take OPs numbers)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
freighters: Freighter pilots make millions if not billions a day just hauling stuff around often putting the isk/h of gankers to shame. They can do so while beeing mostly afk and if they choose to they can reduce the risks of loss by a huge margin.
Meanwhile the gankers need to put alot of time, isk, effort and organization into ganking while often not beeing rewarded at all.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Don't get me wrong.
I think freighter pilots should be able to safeboat. My issue is the reward of ganking. Gankers should be rewarded in a way that meets the cost and all the work gankers put into setting up a gank.
Considering all this the cost of a gankfleet should be reduced atleast by half.
Isn't rewarding gankers reverse entitilment?
Ganking happens all the time now to afk freighters so its not like its doesn't appear from a logistics standpoint to be unreasonbly hard to gank a frieghter for those who put their mind to it.
I think numbers should be left alone and emergent gameplay should be the key factor to determine what happens.
The numbers now currently are in favor of the gankers anyways. It only takes 1 billion to destroy a 1.3-1.7 billion isk ship so there is that.
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby".
If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
Core Researcher
Not You Fat Jesus
1
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 15:29:00 -
[21] - Quote
Mai Khumm wrote:HeavensAngel wrote:Mai Khumm wrote:Posting in an obvious "CCP, please patch stupid" thread.
They (tried) to patch stupid with the mining barges, now it's moved onto Freighters.
I have an awesome idea!
Why not pull your heads out of each others asses and fly smart.
Like bring ECM and Logistical support.
Not put billions of ISK worth of crap into it's hold.
Oh, that's too complicated?
OK then, keep feeding the gankers the killmail and loot, fly like complete morons.
Then go on the forums and constantly post over and over again, begging CCP to patch stupid...
wondering what ECM and Logistics will help when your freighter gets killed by an alpha strike ... but thats just my 2 cent I've done it several times. *Looks at inventory and skillsheet, then personal losses.* Looks like I'm a Freighter and JF pilot, with no losses. *Checks former indy corps killboard* Sees several kills. Huh, looks like it works to me. So there is a proven way to defend against Freighter ganking.
Core Researcher wrote:Dont pilot what you can't afford to lose.I agree with this statement. I think freighters should be gankable. My issue is the cost of ganking one to the parties involved. Freighters should be gankable at a cost that is equivalent to the minimum comparative cost to the freigher pilot. using the numbers above the average gankfleet should cost 2.3bn ISK to put together.
So first my quote answers your post. Im not against ganking. You are being overly hostile in your reaction to a cause of debate.
I would also like your explanation for the 'proven way to avoid gank'. This technique should invole no more than one pilot please. |
ITTigerClawIK
Galactic Rangers
R O G U E
218
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 15:32:00 -
[22] - Quote
you cant put an arbitrary value on what makes something worthwhile ganking.. it all depends on how much the tears are worth to the gankers surely ? |
Whitehound
807
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 15:36:00 -
[23] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Core Researcher wrote:hi,
I am here to suggest that the cost of ganking a freighter should be higher than the ~1bn ISK it currently is.
Its currently 2.5 billion.
Scary when such info comes from Bat Country...
Could I please get a notification when the value changes? Thank you.
Oh, and I want a bigger freighter class, with more eHP and much more cargo space, please.
SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
12886
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 15:42:00 -
[24] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:I am more interested about JFs.
Some guys keep telling me I am mad flying a JF around (including hi sec) because it's profitable to gank even when empty.
Is this a gross idiocy or not? Not when I fly one. 
Ship valued at 7bn = 1.4bn payout in bounty, covered neatly by the 4.5bn bounty on my head GÇö more than enough to repay the cost of the gank (never mind any additional bounty payout from destroyed cargo and any dropped loot or salvage). I'm basically a walking (flying?) ATM. 
Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
2445
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 15:44:00 -
[25] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:baltec1 wrote:Core Researcher wrote:hi,
I am here to suggest that the cost of ganking a freighter should be higher than the ~1bn ISK it currently is.
Its currently 2.5 billion. i've read about "ganking standard": 15 tornadoes. Is it right?
No.
Apparently booking your flight & accomodation to Iceland BEFORE you buy the tickets for the convention which is pretty much the only reason you wanted to go there in the first place is popular. |
Sentient Blade
Walk It Off
770
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 15:45:00 -
[26] - Quote
Freighters should have a single low slot for fitting either a cargo, agility or defensive mode.
People who fit for cargo and die have not a leg to stand on. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
12886
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 15:46:00 -
[27] - Quote
Sentient Blade wrote:Freighters should have a single low slot for fitting either a cargo, agility or defensive mode.
People who fit for cargo and die have not a leg to stand on. I'd prefer not to have my freighters nerfed in that way.
Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
2446
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 15:47:00 -
[28] - Quote
Captain Tardbar wrote:It only takes 1 billion to destroy a 1.3-1.7 billion isk ship so there is that.
It only costs 20 Cents to destroy a 50 thousand dollar car. The isk tanking idea is as stupid as it sounds.
Apparently booking your flight & accomodation to Iceland BEFORE you buy the tickets for the convention which is pretty much the only reason you wanted to go there in the first place is popular. |
Mc Scam
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
19
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 15:51:00 -
[29] - Quote
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Isn't rewarding gankers reverse entitilment?
Ganking happens all the time now to afk freighters so its not like its doesn't appear from a logistics standpoint to be unreasonbly hard to gank a frieghter for those who put their mind to it.
I think numbers should be left alone and emergent gameplay should be the key factor to determine what happens.
The numbers now currently are in favor of the gankers anyways. It only takes 1 billion to destroy a 1.3-1.7 billion isk ship so there is that.
Afaik actual suicide ganking has taken a massive hit since retribuition. Most gankers have now joined smaller corps that wardec all the large ones and those that are known for hauling.
Yes it takes 1B(well not really) to suicide a freighter but you must also get that loss back and make a profit. Freighter pilots know that and usually don't haul enough to make a gank worthwhile. Getting all fleetmembers together, fitting the ships, scanning for hours, checking if the cargo is worth it, getting rid of killrights and grinding up sec status is a massive amount of work compared to afk boating through highsec. |
Mai Khumm
Carbon Circle
Tactical Narcotics Team
461
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 16:02:00 -
[30] - Quote
Core Researcher wrote:Mai Khumm wrote:HeavensAngel wrote:Mai Khumm wrote:Posting in an obvious "CCP, please patch stupid" thread.
They (tried) to patch stupid with the mining barges, now it's moved onto Freighters.
I have an awesome idea!
Why not pull your heads out of each others asses and fly smart.
Like bring ECM and Logistical support.
Not put billions of ISK worth of crap into it's hold.
Oh, that's too complicated?
OK then, keep feeding the gankers the killmail and loot, fly like complete morons.
Then go on the forums and constantly post over and over again, begging CCP to patch stupid...
wondering what ECM and Logistics will help when your freighter gets killed by an alpha strike ... but thats just my 2 cent I've done it several times. *Looks at inventory and skillsheet, then personal losses.* Looks like I'm a Freighter and JF pilot, with no losses. *Checks former indy corps killboard* Sees several kills. Huh, looks like it works to me. So there is a proven way to defend against Freighter ganking. Core Researcher wrote:Dont pilot what you can't afford to lose.I agree with this statement. I think freighters should be gankable. My issue is the cost of ganking one to the parties involved. Freighters should be gankable at a cost that is equivalent to the minimum comparative cost to the freigher pilot. using the numbers above the average gankfleet should cost 2.3bn ISK to put together. So first my quote answers your post. Im not against ganking. You are being overly hostile in your reaction to a cause of debate. I would also like your explanation for the 'proven way to avoid gank'. This technique should invole no more than one pilot please.
This is an obvious "CCP patch stupid thread" and the way to prevent being ganked requires a support fleet. You asking for "This shouldn't involve more then 1 person" is stupid beyond measure. And yes, I'll explain this way. Get at least 8 friends, half in Falcons, half in Basilisks or Scimitars. Jump through gate, Falcons uncloak and lock target gank ships, Basilisks uncloak and chain up and preoverheat everything. Freighter begins to warp, logis begin to rep, and it takes coordination between the falcons and targets, spread jams when targets go GCC. It takes more then one volly per ship, unless you use like 20 alpha gank ships.
*insert witty saying here*
twitter - @AzamiNevinyrall |
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