Its 2.5 billion.

I am more interested about JFs.
Some guys keep telling me I am mad flying a JF around (including hi sec) because it's profitable to gank even when empty.

Is this a gross idiocy or not? I admit I have no experience about JFs salvage, I only have a lot about barges, exhumers and destroyers salvage

I am more interested about JFs.
Some guys keep telling me I am mad flying a JF around (including hi sec) because it's profitable to gank even when empty.

Is this a gross idiocy or not? I admit I have no experience about JFs salvage, I only have a lot about barges, exhumers and destroyers salvage

Its currently 2.5 billion.

Utter foolishness. There is no way thats profitable to gank without anything in the hold.

The cost of the average gankfleet?

ah.

Well if this is true I just wasted like 10 minutes writing this hehe.

Utter foolishness. There is no way thats profitable to gank without anything in the hold.

That depends on the average value of tears on the open market. 7bil loss would create a harvest-able tidal wave.

Posting in an obvious "CCP, please patch stupid" thread.
They (tried) to patch stupid with the mining barges, now it's moved onto Freighters.

I have an awesome idea!
Why not pull your heads out of each others asses and fly smart.
Like bring ECM and Logistical support.
Not put billions of ISK worth of crap into it's hold.

Oh, that's too complicated?
OK then, keep feeding the gankers the killmail and loot, fly like complete morons.
Then go on the forums and constantly post over and over again, begging CCP to patch stupid...

Does the Stasis Web instant warp still work with freighters? If yes, then that is the way to play it safe.

Posting in an obvious "CCP, please patch stupid" thread.
They (tried) to patch stupid with the mining barges, now it's moved onto Freighters.

I have an awesome idea!
Why not pull your heads out of each others asses and fly smart.
Like bring ECM and Logistical support.
Not put billions of ISK worth of crap into it's hold.

Oh, that's too complicated?
OK then, keep feeding the gankers the killmail and loot, fly like complete morons.
Then go on the forums and constantly post over and over again, begging CCP to patch stupid...

wondering what ECM and Logistics will help when your freighter gets killed by an alpha strike ... but thats just my 2 cent

wondering what ECM and Logistics will help when your freighter gets killed by an alpha strike ... but thats just my 2 cent

hi,

I am here to suggest that the cost of ganking a freighter should be lower than the ~1bn ISK it currently is.

Looking at it for a ganker pilor's point of view:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

ship investment: ~1bn ISK (according to OP)

So immediately on gank the Ganker fleet loses ~1bn, this does not include possible podkills and the consequences of killrights.
Should the freighter pop AND if the lootfairy indeed says 'YES' then the profit must be split among all members of the fleet. All this means that often, despite the huge time investment, gankers make a bigger loss than the freighter pilot who if he manages to escape even makes a profit due to selling killrights.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

loot: as things currently stand freighter pilots are aware that anything worth over a bill puts a target on them. Therefore their cargo will always be worth 1bn ISK or less. (according to OP, ofc there's a few special pinhatas flying around)
Unless you find one of the pinhatas there will be no profit to be made.(If we take OPs numbers)

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

freighters: Freighter pilots make millions if not billions a day just hauling stuff around often putting the isk/h of gankers to shame. They can do so while beeing mostly afk and if they choose to they can reduce the risks of loss by a huge margin.
Meanwhile the gankers need to put alot of time, isk, effort and organization into ganking while often not beeing rewarded at all.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Don't get me wrong.

I think freighter pilots should be able to safeboat. My issue is the reward of ganking. Gankers should be rewarded in a way that meets the cost and all the work gankers put into setting up a gank.

Considering all this the cost of a gankfleet should be reduced atleast by half.

I've done it several times.
*Looks at inventory and skillsheet, then personal losses.*
Looks like I'm a Freighter and JF pilot, with no losses.
*Checks former indy corps killboard*
Sees several kills.

Huh, looks like it works to me.
So there is a proven way to defend against Freighter ganking.

Dont pilot what you can't afford to lose.

I agree with this statement. I think freighters should be gankable. My issue is the cost of ganking one to the parties involved. Freighters should be gankable at a cost that is equivalent to the minimum comparative cost to the freigher pilot.

using the numbers above the average gankfleet should cost 2.3bn ISK to put together.

Its currently 2.5 billion.

I am more interested about JFs.
Some guys keep telling me I am mad flying a JF around (including hi sec) because it's profitable to gank even when empty.

Is this a gross idiocy or not?

i've read about "ganking standard": 15 tornadoes. Is it right?

Freighters should have a single low slot for fitting either a cargo, agility or defensive mode.

People who fit for cargo and die have not a leg to stand on.

It only takes 1 billion to destroy a 1.3-1.7 billion isk ship so there is that.

Isn't rewarding gankers reverse entitilment?

Ganking happens all the time now to afk freighters so its not like its doesn't appear from a logistics standpoint to be unreasonbly hard to gank a frieghter for those who put their mind to it.

I think numbers should be left alone and emergent gameplay should be the key factor to determine what happens.

The numbers now currently are in favor of the gankers anyways. It only takes 1 billion to destroy a 1.3-1.7 billion isk ship so there is that.

So first my quote answers your post. Im not against ganking. You are being overly hostile in your reaction to a cause of debate.

I would also like your explanation for the 'proven way to avoid gank'. This technique should invole no more than one pilot please.

Scary when such info comes from Bat Country...

It only costs 20 Cents to destroy a 50 thousand dollar car. The isk tanking idea is as stupid as it sounds.

Why is that scary?

This is an obvious "CCP patch stupid thread" and the way to prevent being ganked requires a support fleet. You asking for "This shouldn't involve more then 1 person" is stupid beyond measure. And yes, I'll explain this way. Get at least 8 friends, half in Falcons, half in Basilisks or Scimitars. Jump through gate, Falcons uncloak and lock target gank ships, Basilisks uncloak and chain up and preoverheat everything. Freighter begins to warp, logis begin to rep, and it takes coordination between the falcons and targets, spread jams when targets go GCC. It takes more then one volly per ship, unless you use like 20 alpha gank ships.

ok. So,

(a) if you are a freighter pilot and CCP say "" hey look that Core Researcher has somethinge lets double the EHP of freighters," why do you care so much? You get double EHP for nothing.

(b) a lot of freighters run solo - truckers of space. Why do you think it is reasonable for pilots to have an 8 ship fleet at their command everytime they haul?

(c) if i was going to use a fleet i would use 1 freighter and 1 webber. 8 ships is plain stupid. Unless your next response can answer these basic questions I call Troll.

Instead of using proper precautions and common sense, you're asking CCP to "fix stupid" and in your case ignorant.

Thanks for proving my original point...

Good day sir. o7

No, freighters and jump freighters are fine. They do not need to be changed or fixed.

No, freighters and jump freighters are fine. They do not need to be changed or fixed.

yep.I certainly proved something. Enough time wasted on you i think.

Jump freighters are an even bigger issue it seems from the replies so far.

it takes original calcs and adds 5bn more into the mix.

Ive seen courier packages smaller than a pea with 1bn ISK collateral.

thank you your omnipotence, glad you could set us all straight with your reasoning and debate.

You haven't demonstrated that anything needs to change.
Until then the default assumption is that nothing needs to change.

Wow, what a terrible idea. ISK tanking is the stupidest thing anyone ever thought of.

and here is a representative for the gankers. Sorry another representative.

and here is a representative for the gankers. Sorry another representative.

really?

So to run a few comparisons:

you lose your battleship but the game then charges you an additional 100m isk for your 'cargo'.
you lose your battlecruiser but the game then charges you an additional 50m isk for your +ºargo'

and you would be happy with this?
You wouldnt ask for balance

then we get the usual terribad response people roll out to this debate time and time again (looking at you trollface):

dont try to play solo in an MMO.

Fine - lets lock all mission gates, explorations sites, complexes, belts and pvp unless there is more than 1 player trying to access them/it.

No one will complain right, cause its an MMO durrrrr



and here is a representative for the gankers. Sorry another representative.

I thought freighter ganking wasn't an issue anymore after Retribution? The only dead freighters in highsec I see are ones that have been killed through wardecs.

Most of Bat country are either in your space having fun or working on new projects. We arnt exactly short of cash at the moment

So to run a few comparisons:

you lose your battleship but the game then charges you an additional 100m isk for your 'cargo'.
you lose your battlecruiser but the game then charges you an additional 50m isk for your +ºargo'

and you would be happy with this?
You wouldnt ask for balance

then we get the usual terribad response people roll out to this debate time and time again (looking at you trollface):

dont try to play solo in an MMO.

Fine - lets lock all mission gates, explorations sites, complexes, belts and pvp unless there is more than 1 player trying to access them/it.

No one will complain right, cause its an MMO durrrrr

Gotta let the fields lay fallow for a while or you overtax the soil.

What the hell does any of this have to do with freighter ganking?

So when you gonna lay off the moon goo then?

2) A pirate in Hi-Sec (which is completely illogical, in RL they would not even be tolerated in 0.5 space) is PROTECTED from being killed. Targetting a Pirate/Criminal is basically enough to get aggression from the CCP-Concorde. Even if you have a high standing with the space you are in.

If tanks were based upon isk value the federate issue megathron would have a base EHP at least five times greater than any titan.

There's an impossible bias towards Pirates/Criminals:
1) They are allowed everywhere, where the non-pirates are being killed if we dare enter their territory.
2) A pirate in Hi-Sec (which is completely illogical, in RL they would not even be tolerated in 0.5 space) is PROTECTED from being killed. Targetting a Pirate/Criminal is basically enough to get aggression from the CCP-Concorde. Even if you have a high standing with the space you are in.

We can complain about this until our tongues are worn off, nothing will change.
Probably because one of the Criminals is a GM.
Yes, they are very favorable biassed...

Ok for those not following.

Empty hulls are never ganked unless the squad is so high on victory they dont care (these people dont last long as they are wasting money)

there are 2 ways to gank a freighter.
The alphanado (16 nados @110mil each)
and
the Bumping Blastos (only 7 blastos at ~100 mil each) but also includes 2 bump machs and a bump fleet stabber.
Now if the squads are specialized and trained to the max the costs drop significantly and the gank can be done for under 500 mil.

Now onto the loot.
The rng seems to settle on a 60-40 split against you.
So on average only 40 % of all stacks will drop.
So what this means is that if you stack all you may be passed on due to the risk

from this we find that the baseline is 1.25 bil in cargo must be hauled for a perfect gank to break even.
A new gank squad needs 1.75 bil to break even.

2. Suspect system and negative status mean you can attack us, Bounties mean you get payed for killing us and most of the ships we use are profitable to gank.

Its currently 2.5 billion.

And yet I keep losing Charons full of Trit to you guys.

And yet I keep losing Charons full of Trit to you guys.

The fact that you can kill billions worth of hull and cargo with less than a million ISK means that the game is balanced properly.

Link a killmail

It is not news. You can search for them yourself. Other Goons have already confirmed to sometimes gank empty freighters when the pilot is -10 with you folks. Just for laughs.

you can fill up a charon with GSCs and fill those with trit and it /still/ won't be worth ganking so please keep lying so blatantly ;p

you can fill up a charon with GSCs and fill those with trit and it /still/ won't be worth ganking so please keep lying so blatantly ;p

ship investment: ~1.3bn ISK

So immediately on gank the Freighter pilot loses ~300m in comparison to the gank fleet
(1.3bn ship - 1bn gankfleet).

Actually the courier issue can be solved by removing the notification of who took it until after the time expires.
This way they cant just sit and wait for the taker to undock then gank.

In the particular case of suicide ganking it DOES matter the comparative costs of the ships.

You know how I know this?

Mining barges.

What you're suggesting is that the entire game be bent around the issue of suicide ganking. You want freighters to be harder for EVERYONE to kill, because they might be ganked. Alternatively, you want to make popular gank ships more expensive--or freigheters less expensive--in order to rectify this perceived imbalance.



it would take a LOT of catalysts to equal the value of a hulk. Far more than are required to gank one. You just lost the debate for yourself, well done.

Freighters should have a single low slot for fitting either a cargo, agility or defensive mode.

People who fit for cargo and die have not a leg to stand on.

If you are at war and u catch a freighter would double the EHP matter? triple?
You catch it in low sec, null sec, wormhole space, would it really matter?

You are zeroing in on the "make this more expensive" or "this less expensive" aspect.

What is really being debated here is an increase in EHP for a freighter, not an increase in cost for anything. The OP didnt make that clear but we're all clever dudes here in EvE right?

I dont see your point on the Hulk either tbh?

Hulks were cheap to gank. Mining barges were buffed and players were given an option of tank or yield. So now it takes many more SUICIDE GANKERS to kill a tanked mining ship.

ill bite.

If you are at war and u catch a freighter would double the EHP matter? triple?
You catch it in low sec, null sec, wormhole space, would it really matter?

You are zeroing in on the "make this more expensive" or "this less expensive" aspect.

What is really being debated here is an increase in EHP for a freighter, not an increase in cost for anything. The OP didnt make that clear but we're all clever dudes here in EvE right?

I dont see your point on the Hulk either tbh?

Hulks were cheap to gank. Mining barges were buffed and players were given an option of tank or yield. So now it takes many more SUICIDE GANKERS to kill a tanked mining ship.

So what was your point exactly and how did i lose any debate?

again, you zero in on the one thing but its what you dont say that is more interesting.

Yes, Hulks and Macks can still be ganked.

The glaring ommision here is the other 4 mining ships that are no longer as cheap to gank.

and frankly having seen a freighter killed solo by a vagabond I am doubtful about the arguments raised against a HP buff.

Perhaps the way to go would be to follow the mining ships: split freighter into high capacity/low tank through to low capacity/high tank.

the point of emphasizing this is to show shich particular group of players are the subject of debate.

As I said earlier in the thread:


you cant have it both ways: either its teams and thats how the game works, or its not teams, in which case arguments stating freighter should have an escort are flawed at best.

again, you zero in on the one thing but its what you dont say that is more interesting.

Yes, Hulks and Macks can still be ganked.

The glaring ommision here is the other 4 mining ships that are no longer as cheap to gank.

and frankly having seen a freighter killed solo by a vagabond I am doubtful about the arguments raised against a HP buff.

During the great buff all capitals save freighters were given 4x HP.

You have lost your humanity and with it your right to decide on the proceedings of others.

From this we can gather based upon the posting and proclamations of our grand proclaimer CCP Falcon that you should in fact be Concordokkened for the actions taken.

Ban criminals? XD

you cant have it both ways: either its teams and thats how the game works, or its not teams, in which case arguments stating freighter should have an escort are flawed at best.

You do know that most people have figured out how to solo fly freighters in high sec. Its the complicated tactic of not putting ten billion in the hold.

You could split 10 billion into a team of 10 and be safe.

But wait, you could.. MULTIBOX FREIGHTERSSSSSSS

IF increasing the threshold for ganking freighters will lower the cost to use red frog, I think it's a great idea. Otherwise, I don't really care.

Alternatively, couln't you fly 1 freighter with 10 billion and 9 blackbirds (or falcons if you have the sp for that) and be pretty safe?

The core thing here is cooperation. Freighters are ungankable by any other single player while trucking through hisec. It takes literally a team of people to stop you. So it is only fair it should also take a freighter a team of people to counter the gankers.

I, too, want an 8-men escort fleet for all my freighters at all times.

Recruiting now.
Be prepared to travel...a lot.

Awoxers are welcome.

Alternatively, couln't you fly 1 freighter with 10 billion and 9 blackbirds (or falcons if you have the sp for that) and be pretty safe?

Alternatively, couln't you fly 1 freighter with 10 billion and 9 blackbirds (or falcons if you have the sp for that) and be pretty safe?

Does kinda render freighters a bit limited at the moment. All that space and you can't even (safely) make use of it all in most cases.

Does kinda render freighters a bit limited at the moment. All that space and you can't even (safely) make use of it all in most cases.

Whitehound - I stand corrected, thanks.

To the Goon above, don't be so vesecious, I never said it should be filled with the lowest density/highest values one could possibly find and moved on autopilot.

Just for most every day loads, I usually find mine mostly empty through fear of overloading it. Guess I'm doing it wrong.

If I could speak for him I think he is referring to the fact that even the most tanked hulk can be ganked with less than 60 million in ships. The people ganking freighters are also SUICIDE GANKERS so I am not sure what your point in emphasizing that is.

Essentially what he is saying is you gave the example of the exhumer buff to show how CCP agrees with you. He is saying they don't as people are still ganking tanked exhumers all day long and for a fraction of the cost of the exhumer. The only explanation I can think of for your logic is making TANKED exhumer ganking no longer a solo activity. Again though nobody is solo-ganking any freighters so either way your logic is flawed.

The core thing here is cooperation. Freighters are ungankable by any other single player while trucking through hisec. It takes literally a team of people to stop you. So it is only fair it should also take a freighter a team of people to counter the gankers.

I think lots of players of this game forget that CCP's goal with this game was to make it as close to real life as possible. Do you see Banks security trucks running around town with just a driver picking up and dropping off loot? If you are under consideration for a gank in your freighter you are hauling enough to warrant a team, otherwise you are indeed just a lowly trucker that will likely have a very uneventful day. Use the brain-tank.

hi,

I am here to suggest that the cost of ganking a freighter should be higher than the ~1bn ISK it currently is.

Looking at it for a freighter pilor's point of view:

I'm a freighter pilot and I've also participated in ganking one or two over the years.

My perspective is this:

Freighters should have some flexible fitting options like other haulers do.

Why? For the very reason you posted.

You can calculate whether or not you can kill a freighter and whether or not it's going to be (on average) profitable to do so on a calculator. This discussion proves that.

The best example of this that I can think of was during burn Jita when one of Goons FC's literally worked out on a calculator how many T1 frigates of a certain type it would take to kill a freighter. He then got a fleet together, everyone fit up what he wanted and they went out and proved that his calculation was right. The thing was done on paper, not in EVE.

I think that's wrong.

Giving freighters some flexible fitting options will create a variable in the equation.

Havihng a couple of low-slots and a couple of rig slots would allow freighter pilots to choose between different priorities, for example:

- more EHP (hull modules and/or trimarks and other armor mods) vs slower aligning and less cargo space
- more cargo room at the expense of EHP
- faster aligning (inertia stabs) at the expense of other priorities.

You could even put a warp core stab on it although most freighter pilots would know that it won't help... but still....

The packaged M3 for Carriers and Dread's are not really a valued number in the game. No ship can carry them when they are packaged and they will never be undocked in that state. They come in at 1,000,000 M3 packaged. If that number were pushed up to 2 mill or even 5 it wouldn't matter one way or the other in terms of how they are handled in the game. It is the only reason freighters do not have rig slots or a single low slot.

If the numbers on packaged capitals were jacked up CCP could add a single low slot and or Rig slots to the freighters as well as the Jump Freighters. If someone wants to crank up their hold, let them. For those with more brains than a big dog, they could multiply the EHP of the ship and improve Inertia. Goonswarm or more specific, Bat Co seem to think EVE players is too dumb ta do it right anyway, they will still gett heir stupid kills and people like me would no longer feel any pity for them because they made a decision. Right now, it's nothing but a cow in space, in a game everyone seems to agree is full of wolves.

So first my quote answers your post. Im not against ganking. You are being overly hostile in your reaction to a cause of debate.

I would also like your explanation for the 'proven way to avoid gank'. This technique should invole no more than one pilot please.

It has one of the biggest buffers in high sec and on average the number of ganked freighters a week is around the same as the number that pass though the perimiter gate in 2 minutes.

You are trying to fix a problem that does not exist.

I can get Battleships to higher EHP than the freighters have. Because the freighters EHP is all in the hull you can't logi a freighter. I know, I've tried. In a game where blap should be in the logo, freighter EHP and distribution is a serious problem.

There would be something very wrong if a battleship could not have a bigger buffer than a freighter.

Freighters are perfectly fine EHP wise, its the pilots that are causing the issues and CCP cannot patch stupid.

And yet here you are, like you are in every thread about buffing EHP on a freighter, saying there is no need. If it's all about stupid, why so serious?

A freighter is a capital ship. Not a combat ship? You can shoot at it, that makes it a combat ship. A capital ship should not have less EHP than a sub capital with no option to fit and fortify it in a game that grants the right to shoot you while in one. It's a big fat cow.

it should also require the Capital Ship skill book to even fly but that's another issue.

Hey guys, the Marco Polo and Pierre Guillaumat are bigger than any battleship or aircraft carrier. They should be great for a war!


Thats litereally what you just said...

If you want to drag real world examples in to this, lets look at the real world implications of blowing up the Marco Polo and then just rolling in to a port to wait out your 15 minute rage moment.

Back in EVE though, my advice to people is that if you are High Sec doing High Sec business, get an Orca and get rid of your freighter. You don't need it and you will see it once you are in the Orca that will run you 33% of the cost the freighter is running you. Freighters for expediting from Null to HS and according to all the seers, when they buff Null Industrial that won't be needed any more. Things should correct itself in the end.

EVE is more like the age of spanish gold ships.



As a freighter pilot I will point out that a full load of trit or transporting 10 talos cannot be done in an orca in one trip, a single freighter trip is much more efficient use of time.

Pirates didn't roll in to Madrid like they were just your average tug boat captain either, not even in the height of piracy.

I agree on the Trit and Talos factor but High Sec people don't need ten Talos or 80 million trit

No they rolled into London and had lunch with the Queen.

No they rolled into London and had lunch with the Queen.



And here you show an utter lack of knolage of high sec. Yesterday well over 30 billion units of trit were sold in jita alone.

And you still missed the point. That trit was not aimed at HS or their ships.

Just about all production takes place in high sec. Also how do you think that trit got into that station in the heart of high sec in a system with no belts?

Hisec, creating tears, problems and hatred since inception.

I think it's time accept the fact that nothing good will ever come out of it and simply reduce it into handful of systems to protect the new players, and let players take care of the rest.