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Jonah Gravenstein
Gordian Knot Holdings
5715
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 11:39:00 -
[31] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:baltec1 wrote:You could easily tank all three exhumers way past the point of being unprofitable pre buff. The irony here is that we were calling for a PG/CPU buff not an EHP buff. One Catalyst could easily destroy tanked Retriever and have time to get tanked Procurer to structure after that.
You overestimate the glorious power of the Catalyst, a properly tanked Procuror can hit close to 62k EHP and will quite happily shrug off multiple Catalysts to survive way past Concord response time.
I am Ohm of Borg, Resistance is Voltage/Current. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1157
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 11:40:00 -
[32] - Quote
Herr Wilkus wrote:Kate stark wrote: why would we? you already said it's unprofitable to gank a hulk with 16k+ehp, and you can get that from a max yield fit. what is there to change?
if it's unprofitable to gank that, then you're evidently only ganking me for the lulz, and if lulz is what you want no amount of tank is going to save me is it?
Why would miners change, indeed? Forum Whine-tank seems to work pretty well in light of recent CCP buffs to Concord and EHP. Untanked 'mining ships' now have significantly more EHP than untanked T2 and T1 Combat ships. A Procurer costs 7 Million ISK, and has almost 30K EHP untanked. Yeah, makes sense.
They /should/ cost around 24-25 million. The 7 million is an artifact of the massive stocks produced before the buff. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities.As well as mysql and CSV/XLS conversions of the Static Data Extract. |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
393
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 11:43:00 -
[33] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:baltec1 wrote:You could easily tank all three exhumers way past the point of being unprofitable pre buff. The irony here is that we were calling for a PG/CPU buff not an EHP buff. One Catalyst could easily destroy tanked Retriever and have time to get tanked Procurer to structure after that. You overestimate the glorious power of the Catalyst, a properly tanked Procuror can hit close to 62k EHP and will quite happily shrug off multiple Catalysts to survive way past Concord response time.
Nope, at least not without officer mods.
Keywords: pre buff |
Jonah Gravenstein
Gordian Knot Holdings
5721
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Posted - 2013.02.15 11:59:00 -
[34] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Keywords: pre buff
I am Ohm of Borg, Resistance is Voltage/Current. |
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
692
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 12:06:00 -
[35] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Right up until you said this..... you might have had some credibility. But CCP's graphs released a week ago show the Hulk is still the money maker of the exhumers overall, hauling in large quantities of ore consistantly. Of course, they happen to be doing this in null sec, in grav sites, out of your high sec 'elite PvPers' sight.... So you ignore the actual facts and simply go off the High Sec Ice belts for what exists. Ore miners are never AFK, they may be 'AFW' for 60 second intervals sometimes, who wouldn't be when faced with that boring a cycle for hours on end. But never AFK for anything significant, or their mining stops. Ice Miners are the only people this accusation has basis against.
Was it 'lazy'. Not by CCP, I'm quite sure they will have gamed out 10,000 scenarios as part of their balancing. Was it lazy by miners? I'm sure most miners would love more flexibility & more slots to fit modules into.
I based my anal-sis on two things.
A) Market value of Hulks crashed by 1/3rd - while build costs and gankability stayed the same. Clear fall in demand. B) My own experience roaming high sec, ice belts and asteroid fields. Can't speak for nullsec.
Hulks, of course, die on sight - but you simply don't see them very often. And I get the feeling that quite a few of them are 'Legacy Hulks' - as many are STILL FIT with cargo expanders and Cargo rigs. Relics that are disappearing from highsec as we find them and/or products of low-information miners who read an obsolete guide and still think 'Hulk is the best!'
I generally see 70% Mackinaws and Retrievers if not more. If a system has been dealing with sustained ganking operations you start to see Skiffs and Procs, and a smattering of hard-tanked Macks. Hulks are a rare treat found occasionally in belts. Don't think I've seen a single Covetor yet. |
Arduemont
Tempest Legion Corcoran State
1225
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Posted - 2013.02.15 12:17:00 -
[36] - Quote
My alt uses one that has a small shield booster, invulnerably field, two extenders in the rigs and a damage control in the lows. It's cap stable, so they run permanently. Also, the chap who gives us boosts has maxed shield and armour boost.
My alt, despite being an indy character, has his tank skills all on 4 and the occasional 5 as well. Tank is important, especially, for a miner. Make sure to get your cap skills up as well so you can run your tank mods permanently. "In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." |
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
581
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Posted - 2013.02.15 12:43:00 -
[37] - Quote
Arduemont wrote:My alt uses one that has a small shield booster, invulnerably field, two extenders in the rigs and a damage control in the lows. It's cap stable, so they run permanently. Also, the chap who gives us boosts has maxed shield and armour boost.
My alt, despite being an indy character, has his tank skills all on 4 and the occasional 5 as well. Tank is important, especially, for a miner. Make sure to get your cap skills up as well so you can run your tank mods permanently.
Well we should add that you also need to have proper skills to tank a T2 (!!!!!) exhumer. Frankly, before you can not tank it (that includes cap stability ergo all energy skills...) you should not fly it. As for why I am seeing T1 fitted T2 miners at all....I really do not know...stop complaining
"Also, your boobs " -á CCP Eterne, 2012
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Abrazzar
792
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Posted - 2013.02.15 12:53:00 -
[38] - Quote
Here's to all miners: Train up to get the Hull Tanking, Elite certificate. Make it public. Fit a damage control.
This way you let suicide monkeys know that you are no simple pi+¦ata and they will look for easier targets elsewhere. Mining Overhaul Nothing changed since 2008. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
1362
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 13:36:00 -
[39] - Quote
Dexen Echerie wrote:So for months and months, everything was cool. Mining in Hi-sec was just fine, and suicide ganking was rare (at least in the systems i mined in).
My friends and I decied to move our operation to a different system, just for a change of pace, but noticed quite a bit of suicide ganking going on there, so we moved about 25 jumps away, back to our old neighborhood. Then yesterday, outta nowhere (and completely out of character for the system) my mining gang gets suicide ganked. They only got once of us, but still, kinda lame.
I know it happens, wasn't even all that surprised. What got me was when today, we got hit AGAIN in a different system. Same M.O., though I didn't recognize any of the names from the day before...
This isn't so much a (edited to: complaining) post as it is a question...
Anyone else noticing a rise in suicide ganking lately? Or have I just been unlucky?
Random Suicide Gank Generator is Random.
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Ptraci
Militaris Industries Northern Coalition.
1253
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 13:37:00 -
[40] - Quote
Dexen Echerie wrote:Anyone else noticing a rise in suicide ganking lately? Or have I just been unlucky?
Yes I get a rise out of suicide g.... wait, what?
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Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
393
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 13:39:00 -
[41] - Quote
Herr Wilkus wrote:I generally see 70% Mackinaws and Retrievers if not more. If a system has been dealing with sustained ganking operations you start to see Skiffs and Procs, and a smattering of hard-tanked Macks. Hulks are a rare treat found occasionally in belts. Don't think I've seen a single Covetor yet.
If miner mines alone with just one ship, why should he/she use Hulk instead of Mack? |
Kate stark
137
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Posted - 2013.02.15 13:44:00 -
[42] - Quote
Beckie DeLey wrote:Kate stark wrote:why would we? you already said it's unprofitable to gank a hulk with 16k+ehp, and you can get that from a max yield fit. what is there to change? Well, at least you agree that there's a problem. i didn't say it was a problem. i just said that you could fit for max yield and still be unprofitable to gank. if some one wants to gank you, then they can. they just can't do it for profit, as per CCP's intention.
Whitehound wrote:He wants to get ganked less and not more.
One can tank a Skiff to 100k-125k eHP. It is half the eHP of a freighter, at a signature of ~230m.
oh my mistake, i thought he wanted to make more isk.
i really must stop thinking people want to make the most isk/hour from an isk making activity... |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
570
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 13:45:00 -
[43] - Quote
Get a full implanted/boosted toon and 90K EHP tank Skiff fleet, imune to everything but hauling *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
Kate stark
137
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Posted - 2013.02.15 13:52:00 -
[44] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote: But CCP's graphs released a week ago show the Hulk is still the money maker of the exhumers overall, hauling in large quantities of ore consistantly.
actually, take a look at the numbers again.
the ONLY high sec ore to have more than 35% volume for the hulk is kernite. the rest have less than 30%. with the other covetor seeing as much use as the skiff and the procurer (which, is close to nothing) then where's the other 70% going?
the only other options that are left are the ships fit for cargo bay. so no, the hulk isn't really the money maker of exhumers overall. in fact, the increase in popularity of the retriever shows that exhumers no longer have an iron clad claim to being "money makers".
the only place hulks are seeing significant use is on high end ores, thus, outside of high sec. guess what doesn't matter in non-concord space? can flipping, and ehp. it's not difficult to see why the numbers are as they are. however saying the hulk is still the money maker, is far from true in high sec. as this thread is about ganking, high sec is the only sec that is relevant here. |
Kate stark
137
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Posted - 2013.02.15 13:53:00 -
[45] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:Get a full implanted/boosted toon and 90K EHP tank Skiff fleet, imune to everything but hauling
or swap the skiff for a retriever and make more isk while not getting ganked a single time unless you like to mine 1 jump from jita and tell every one how bad their mother was last night as she was taking a ride on your disco stick. |
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
692
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 13:54:00 -
[46] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Herr Wilkus wrote:I generally see 70% Mackinaws and Retrievers if not more. If a system has been dealing with sustained ganking operations you start to see Skiffs and Procs, and a smattering of hard-tanked Macks. Hulks are a rare treat found occasionally in belts. Don't think I've seen a single Covetor yet. If miner mines alone with just one ship, why should he/she use Hulk instead of Mack?
Let me turn that around for you.
When miners have access to a fleet (meaning: ample cargo space), why are they STILL opting to mine in Mackinaws?
Hulks 'supposed' to be the clear choice in a fleet setting.
Answer: ******, rushed, balancing by CCP. They literally tripped over their own dicks in an effort to kill Hulkaggeddon.
Cargo, Tank, Yield. Hulk is 3rd, 3rd, and 1st. Mack is 1st, 2nd, and 2nd. Skiff is 2nd, 1st, and very narrowly 3rd.
Easiest fix would be to swap the Hulks' EHP for the Macks'. That would balance AFK cargo convenience against increased ganking risk. High yield of Hulk is already offset by small cargo hold micro-requirement.
But miners will cry because they want their one-size fits all Mackinaws.
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Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
393
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 13:58:00 -
[47] - Quote
Kate stark wrote:they just can't do it for profit
- Build Mackinaw - Sell Mackinaw to miner (+ 180M) - Build 3 Catalysts and T2 mods for them (- 10M)
+170M at this point
- Gank Mackinaw - You get 12-15M from loot and 25M from salvage
Profit: 207M - 210M
Problem solved. |
Kate stark
137
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 14:02:00 -
[48] - Quote
Herr Wilkus wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:Herr Wilkus wrote:I generally see 70% Mackinaws and Retrievers if not more. If a system has been dealing with sustained ganking operations you start to see Skiffs and Procs, and a smattering of hard-tanked Macks. Hulks are a rare treat found occasionally in belts. Don't think I've seen a single Covetor yet. If miner mines alone with just one ship, why should he/she use Hulk instead of Mack? Let me turn that around for you. When miners have access to a fleet (meaning: ample cargo space), why are they STILL opting to mine in Mackinaws? Hulks 'supposed' to be the clear choice in a fleet setting. Answer: ******, rushed, balancing by CCP. They literally tripped over their own dicks in an effort to kill Hulkaggeddon. Cargo, Tank, Yield. Hulk is 3rd, 3rd, and 1st. Mack is 1st, 2nd, and 2nd. Skiff is 2nd, 1st, and very narrowly 3rd. Easiest fix would be to swap the Hulks' EHP for the Macks'. That would balance AFK cargo convenience against increased ganking risk. High yield of Hulk is already offset by small cargo hold micro-requirement. But miners will cry because they want their one-size fits all Mackinaws.
swapping the ehp is a sensible and common suggestion, one i fully agree with. it makes sense for two reasons, as above with the fact that the mack has the worst of nothing and the hulk has worst of two things. also every cargo module reduces ehp, so why does the mackinaw not have the lowest hp as if the cargo were expanded by normal means?
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Kate stark wrote:they just can't do it for profit - Build Mackinaw - Sell Mackinaw to miner (+ 180M) - Build 3 Catalysts and T2 mods for them (- 10M) +170M at this point - Gank Mackinaw - You get 12-15M from loot and 25M from salvage Profit: 207M - 210M Problem solved.
you know you just typed out a whole load of crap, right? |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
393
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 14:16:00 -
[49] - Quote
Kate stark wrote:you know you just typed out a whole load of crap, right?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy |
Kate stark
138
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Posted - 2013.02.15 14:19:00 -
[50] - Quote
buying and selling ships has nothing to do with whether or not it's profitable to gank an exhumer. |
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stoicfaux
2362
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Posted - 2013.02.15 14:26:00 -
[51] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Kate stark wrote:they just can't do it for profit - Build Mackinaw - Sell Mackinaw to miner (+ 180M) You make a 100% profit on Macks? No manufacturing or raw material costs whatsoever?
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Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
694
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 14:40:00 -
[52] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:Kate stark wrote:they just can't do it for profit - Build Mackinaw - Sell Mackinaw to miner (+ 180M) You make a 100% profit on Macks? No manufacturing or raw material costs whatsoever?
Eh, don't bother. Jorma has been posting for years now. Wasn' t the sharpest tool in the shed before, nothings changed.
Tutoring Jorma in economics is like showing a chicken the Space Shuttle. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1157
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 14:41:00 -
[53] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:Kate stark wrote:they just can't do it for profit - Build Mackinaw - Sell Mackinaw to miner (+ 180M) You make a 100% profit on Macks? No manufacturing or raw material costs whatsoever?
Profit margin on a Mack is approximately 8 million or so (knocking off 5 form the 13 raw for the datacore costs. Assuming no use of Decryptors). FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities.As well as mysql and CSV/XLS conversions of the Static Data Extract. |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
393
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 14:53:00 -
[54] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:stoicfaux wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:Kate stark wrote:they just can't do it for profit - Build Mackinaw - Sell Mackinaw to miner (+ 180M) You make a 100% profit on Macks? No manufacturing or raw material costs whatsoever? Profit margin on a Mack is approximately 8 million or so (knocking off 5 form the 13 raw for the datacore costs. Assuming no use of Decryptors).
You forgot that some people can get Tech for free. |
baltec1
Bat Country
5244
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 14:58:00 -
[55] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:baltec1 wrote:You could easily tank all three exhumers way past the point of being unprofitable pre buff. The irony here is that we were calling for a PG/CPU buff not an EHP buff. One Catalyst could easily destroy tanked Retriever and have time to get tanked Procurer to structure after that. Neither of those ships are exhumers |
Corey Fumimasa
Royal Caldari Imperial Guard Imperium Directive
129
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 15:00:00 -
[56] - Quote
Dexen Echerie wrote:So for months and months, everything was cool. Mining in Hi-sec was just fine, and suicide ganking was rare (at least in the systems i mined in).... I know it happens, wasn't even all that surprised. What got me was when today, we got hit AGAIN in a different system. Same M.O., though I didn't recognize any of the names from the day before...
This isn't so much a (edited to: complaining) post as it is a question...
Anyone else noticing a rise in suicide ganking lately? Or have I just been unlucky?
I live in Genesis, and like you, have seen a rise in ganking. I think lots of small timers and new players are getting into it. Which is actually very cool because they have made some mistakes and the "miners" have started to fight back a bit. I heard a story where a couple of gank fit cats got reverse ganked by a handful of frigs operated by miners. Which would just be cool if true.
As for mining in peace, have you thought about lowsec? When I get the urge to punch rocks I fit a cloak on my covetor if the pipe is busy, usually its slow enough that I just stay aligned though and keep my finger over the warp button if someone enters system. The yield isn't as good as grind mining in high, but its a lot more fun, and the rats are worth more so that helps.
Anyway, your not imagining things even if its not on the rise everywhere there is a trend happening.
This is a youtube playlist going over my first 30 ship losses. Video sucks but the audio came out well.There are some good lessons, and if you know the game there's some funny stories. |
Corey Fumimasa
Royal Caldari Imperial Guard Imperium Directive
129
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 15:04:00 -
[57] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
You forgot that some people can get Tech for free.
Resources that you harvest yourself are not free. That is one of the strangest misconceptions about economy and business that I have ever heard. And a very common one in Eve.
This is a youtube playlist going over my first 30 ship losses. Video sucks but the audio came out well.There are some good lessons, and if you know the game there's some funny stories. |
Corey Fumimasa
Royal Caldari Imperial Guard Imperium Directive
129
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 15:07:00 -
[58] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Herr Wilkus wrote:A Procurer costs 7 Million ISK, and has almost 30K EHP untanked. Yeah, makes sense. Fun fact. My arbi with a 1600 plate has less tank than an untanked procurer. It also barely out tanks an untanked mack which now has a bigger base EHP than the heavy assault ships. I now must go and buy a skiff and then go and shoot billboards.
This is a youtube playlist going over my first 30 ship losses. Video sucks but the audio came out well.There are some good lessons, and if you know the game there's some funny stories. |
flakeys
Arkham Innovations Paper Tiger Coalition
832
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 15:07:00 -
[59] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:stoicfaux wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:Kate stark wrote:they just can't do it for profit - Build Mackinaw - Sell Mackinaw to miner (+ 180M) You make a 100% profit on Macks? No manufacturing or raw material costs whatsoever? Profit margin on a Mack is approximately 8 million or so (knocking off 5 form the 13 raw for the datacore costs. Assuming no use of Decryptors). You forgot that some people can get Tech for free.
As stated above , not the most bright one ....
We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
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Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
393
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 15:08:00 -
[60] - Quote
Herr Wilkus wrote:Eh, don't bother. Jorma has been posting for years now. Wasn' t the sharpest tool in the shed before, nothings changed.
Tutoring Jorma in economics is like showing a chicken the Space Shuttle.
For you economy means "only lazy people can earn money".
In other words (in EVE): Economy: ganker gets profit Non-economy: miner gets profit |
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