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Dexen Echerie
SynnCo Unlimited
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 08:11:00 -
[1] - Quote
So for months and months, everything was cool. Mining in Hi-sec was just fine, and suicide ganking was rare (at least in the systems i mined in).
My friends and I decied to move our operation to a different system, just for a change of pace, but noticed quite a bit of suicide ganking going on there, so we moved about 25 jumps away, back to our old neighborhood. Then yesterday, outta nowhere (and completely out of character for the system) my mining gang gets suicide ganked. They only got once of us, but still, kinda lame.
I know it happens, wasn't even all that surprised. What got me was when today, we got hit AGAIN in a different system. Same M.O., though I didn't recognize any of the names from the day before...
This isn't so much a (edited to: complaining) post as it is a question...
Anyone else noticing a rise in suicide ganking lately? Or have I just been unlucky? |
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
579
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 08:15:00 -
[2] - Quote
Dexen Echerie wrote:So for months and months, everything was cool. Mining in Hi-sec was just fine, and suicide ganking was rare (at least in the systems i mined in).
My friends and I decied to move our operation to a different system, just for a change of pace, but noticed quite a bit of suicide ganking going on there, so we moved about 25 jumps away, back to our old neighborhood. Then yesterday, outta nowhere (and completely out of character for the system) my mining gang gets suicide ganked. They only got once of us, but still, kinda lame.
I know it happens, wasn't even all that surprised. What got me was when today, we got hit AGAIN in a different system. Same M.O., though I didn't recognize any of the names from the day before...
This isn't so much a (edited to: complaining) post as it is a question...
Anyone else noticing a rise in suicide ganking lately? Or have I just been unlucky?
unlucky and untanked http://zkillboard.com/detail/28524814/ that is not a tank...mine in a tanked Mack or a untanked Skiff, Fit Ganglinks on your booster orca problem solved.
"Also, your boobs " -á CCP Eterne, 2012
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Dexen Echerie
SynnCo Unlimited
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 08:23:00 -
[3] - Quote
My impression was that worrying too much about tanking in hi-sec was pointless... mostly because if someone plans to get you in hi-sec, they'll find a way.
Any suggestions for a good tanked Mack, then? |
Super spikinator
Hegemonous Conscripts Hegemonous Pandorum
93
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 08:24:00 -
[4] - Quote
Dexen Echerie wrote:So for months and months, everything was cool. Mining in Hi-sec was just fine, and suicide ganking was rare (at least in the systems i mined in).
My friends and I decied to move our operation to a different system, just for a change of pace, but noticed quite a bit of suicide ganking going on there, so we moved about 25 jumps away, back to our old neighborhood. Then yesterday, outta nowhere (and completely out of character for the system) my mining gang gets suicide ganked. They only got once of us, but still, kinda lame.
I know it happens, wasn't even all that surprised. What got me was when today, we got hit AGAIN in a different system. Same M.O., though I didn't recognize any of the names from the day before...
This isn't so much a (edited to: complaining) post as it is a question...
Anyone else noticing a rise in suicide ganking lately? Or have I just been unlucky?
just unlucky, Suicide ganking (outside of where CODE is) is at historic lows. |
baltec1
Bat Country
5240
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 08:26:00 -
[5] - Quote
Exhumer ganks are at a record low. |
baltec1
Bat Country
5240
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 08:28:00 -
[6] - Quote
Dexen Echerie wrote:My impression was that worrying too much about tanking in hi-sec was pointless... mostly because if someone plans to get you in hi-sec, they'll find a way. Any suggestions for a good tanked Mack, then? A single damage control. You are already unprofitable to gank with just the bare hull ehp. |
Kate stark
137
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 08:35:00 -
[7] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Dexen Echerie wrote:My impression was that worrying too much about tanking in hi-sec was pointless... mostly because if someone plans to get you in hi-sec, they'll find a way. Any suggestions for a good tanked Mack, then? A single damage control. You are already unprofitable to gank with just the bare hull ehp. the correct answer was "a retriever"
i'm sorry baltec1 you don't advance to the next round of answering silly questions in GD, better luck next time :P |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6758
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 08:35:00 -
[8] - Quote
Dexen Echerie wrote:My impression was that worrying too much about tanking in hi-sec was pointless... mostly because if someone plans to get you in hi-sec, they'll find a way.
Any suggestions for a good tanked Mack, then?
if someone is determined to gank you and capable of it, they will
if you make it more difficult, it's less likely ~*a proud belligerent undesirable*~ TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Jonah Gravenstein
Gordian Knot Holdings
5710
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 08:37:00 -
[9] - Quote
You made the mistake of fitting for yield, tanking in highsec is always worthwhile if you're mining. Fit a halfway decent tank and people will move onto an easier target, You don't have to have an uber tank, you need enough tank to survive until Concord turn up.
With my miners skills you get about 13k (eve)EHP against blasters from your fit, Catalysts are the main ships used for suicide ganking hence blasters , by sacrificing a little yield (-3m^3/second) you can nearly double that up to about 23k (eve)EHP permatank and be capstable so that your strips keep running.
[Mackinaw, quickly thrown together for a tank ]
Modulated Strip Miner II (Kernite Mining Crystal II) Modulated Strip Miner II (Pyroxeres Mining Crystal II)
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Small F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Thermic Dissipation Amplifier II Survey Scanner II
2x Mining Laser Upgrade I Damage Control II
2x Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
I am Ohm of Borg, Resistance is Voltage/Current. |
Alice Saki
Suddenly Spaced Out Suddenly Spaceships.
30203
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 08:42:00 -
[10] - Quote
No Skill Pvp =D
We've all done it, It can be fun.... Altho I'd rather go into a Fight and come out with my ship intact I lack any Moral Fiber :D |
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Arronicus
Brave Newbies Inc.
191
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 08:46:00 -
[11] - Quote
Dexen Echerie wrote:
My impression was that worrying too much about tanking in hi-sec was pointless... mostly because if someone plans to get you in highsec they will find a way
Your impression is correct only so far as applying to someone with a particular grudge against you, and a willingness to part with many tens of millions, if not more isk, to achieve that end.
Since that is NOT the case here, No.
Tanking in highsec is all about mitigating the amount of suicide gankers that are going to go after you. Hulks in highsec are suicide, they are built for active tanks, not buffer tanks, and as such, they are incredibly easy to gank. Anyone sees one, they tell their friends, you die. Mackinaws are a good balance, of tank, vs yield. Given that you don't see many hulks in highsec anymore, mostly just null and w-space, Mackinaws make up the majority of exhumers that get ganked in highsec.
If you fly a mack, it better have a decent buffer tank on it. Make sure you have a large tank, before you go for yield. If you have 3 mining laser upgrades in the lows, you don't have enough tank.
Skiffs, are if you want practically noone to even try to gank you. Skiffs still have a decent-ish yield, and their ore-hold is bigger than a hulk still, even if nothing like a mackinaw, but they can get absolutely absurd tanks. To the extent where ganking an afterburner fit full buffer skiff can take in excess of what, 15 destroyers?
The more tank you fit, the less gankers you will appeal to. When I used to gank in the past, I always ship scanned my targets first, not only to select the ones with the more expensive fittings, but also to make sure that they didnt have too much tank for my gang to reasonably take down. Some other people do this to.
TL:DR if you don't fit a tank, you're gonna die. If you do, the bigger the tank, the less likely you'll get ganked. |
baltec1
Bat Country
5241
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 09:22:00 -
[12] - Quote
Kate stark wrote:baltec1 wrote:Dexen Echerie wrote:My impression was that worrying too much about tanking in hi-sec was pointless... mostly because if someone plans to get you in hi-sec, they'll find a way. Any suggestions for a good tanked Mack, then? A single damage control. You are already unprofitable to gank with just the bare hull ehp. the correct answer was "a retriever" i'm sorry baltec1 you don't advance to the next round of answering silly questions in GD, better luck next time :P I hope that one day I meet a miner that will change their ways. Its been a year now and I have yet to meet one, I fear they dont exist. |
Kate stark
137
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 09:25:00 -
[13] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Kate stark wrote:baltec1 wrote:Dexen Echerie wrote:My impression was that worrying too much about tanking in hi-sec was pointless... mostly because if someone plans to get you in hi-sec, they'll find a way. Any suggestions for a good tanked Mack, then? A single damage control. You are already unprofitable to gank with just the bare hull ehp. the correct answer was "a retriever" i'm sorry baltec1 you don't advance to the next round of answering silly questions in GD, better luck next time :P I hope that one day I meet a miner that will change their ways. Its been a year now and I have yet to meet one, I fear they dont exist.
why would we? you already said it's unprofitable to gank a hulk with 16k+ehp, and you can get that from a max yield fit. what is there to change?
if it's unprofitable to gank that, then you're evidently only ganking me for the lulz, and if lulz is what you want no amount of tank is going to save me is it? |
Whitehound
824
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 09:25:00 -
[14] - Quote
Dexen Echerie wrote:Any suggestions for a good tanked Mack, then? Yes, a Skiff.
baltec1 wrote:I hope that one day I meet a miner that will change their ways. Its been a year now and I have yet to meet one, I fear they dont exist. It will be a cold, harsh day for you when it happens, or if... SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog |
Kate stark
137
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 09:26:00 -
[15] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Dexen Echerie wrote:Any suggestions for a good tanked Mack, then? Yes, a Skiff. no, a retriever! |
Alice Saki
Suddenly Spaced Out Suddenly Spaceships.
30207
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 09:28:00 -
[16] - Quote
Kate stark wrote:Whitehound wrote:Dexen Echerie wrote:Any suggestions for a good tanked Mack, then? Yes, a Skiff. no, a retriever!
A FEROX! I lack any Moral Fiber :D |
Beckie DeLey
Living From Scraps
332
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 09:35:00 -
[17] - Quote
why would we? you already said it's unprofitable to gank a hulk with 16k+ehp, and you can get that from a max yield fit. what is there to change?[/quote]
Well, at least you agree that there's a problem. So... i started an industry blog at www.derbk.com/eve There i am preparing a guide to all things related to manufacturing. Check it out!
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Whitehound
824
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 09:36:00 -
[18] - Quote
Kate stark wrote:Whitehound wrote:Dexen Echerie wrote:Any suggestions for a good tanked Mack, then? Yes, a Skiff. no, a retriever! He wants to get ganked less and not more.
One can tank a Skiff to 100k-125k eHP. It is half the eHP of a freighter, at a signature of ~230m. SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
393
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 09:37:00 -
[19] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Exhumer ganks are at a record low.
I have a lot of exhumers for you to gank.
- Only exhumers - Untanked (I promise) - Not talking about Skiffs (I promise)
Did I mention that those exhumers are not max buffer Skiffs?
Deal? |
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
689
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 09:53:00 -
[20] - Quote
Kate stark wrote: why would we? you already said it's unprofitable to gank a hulk with 16k+ehp, and you can get that from a max yield fit. what is there to change?
if it's unprofitable to gank that, then you're evidently only ganking me for the lulz, and if lulz is what you want no amount of tank is going to save me is it?
Why would miners change, indeed? Forum Whine-tank seems to work pretty well in light of recent CCP buffs to Concord and EHP.
Untanked 'mining ships' now have significantly more EHP than untanked T2 and T1 Combat ships.
A Procurer costs 7 Million ISK, and has almost 30K EHP untanked. Yeah, makes sense.
|
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baltec1
Bat Country
5242
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 09:55:00 -
[21] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:baltec1 wrote:Exhumer ganks are at a record low. I have a lot of exhumers for you to gank. - Only exhumers - Untanked (I promise) - Not talking about Skiffs (I promise) Did I mention that those exhumers are not max buffer Skiffs? Deal? Only hulks are profitable when untanked. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3411
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 09:57:00 -
[22] - Quote
Herr Wilkus wrote:Kate stark wrote:why would we? you already said it's unprofitable to gank a hulk with 16k+ehp, and you can get that from a max yield fit. what is there to change?
if it's unprofitable to gank that, then you're evidently only ganking me for the lulz, and if lulz is what you want no amount of tank is going to save me is it? Why would miners change, indeed? Forum Whine-tank seems to work pretty well in light of recent CCP buffs to Concord and EHP. Untanked 'mining ships' now have significantly more EHP than untanked T2 and T1 Combat ships. A Procurer costs 7 Million ISK, and has almost 30K EHP untanked. Yeah, makes sense. Turning on your CCP-Faction Invulns saves lives. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
baltec1
Bat Country
5243
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 10:17:00 -
[23] - Quote
Herr Wilkus wrote:A Procurer costs 7 Million ISK, and has almost 30K EHP untanked. Yeah, makes sense. Fun fact. My arbi with a 1600 plate has less tank than an untanked procurer. It also barely out tanks an untanked mack which now has a bigger base EHP than the heavy assault ships. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
147
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 10:40:00 -
[24] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Herr Wilkus wrote:A Procurer costs 7 Million ISK, and has almost 30K EHP untanked. Yeah, makes sense. Fun fact. My arbi with a 1600 plate has less tank than an untanked procurer. It also barely out tanks an untanked mack which now has a bigger base EHP than the heavy assault ships. Fun fact, your Arbi (A t1 Ewar cruiser....) has enough PG to fit a 1600 Plate. A T2 Barge, does not. If you want to take the raw EHP away from barges, then give them that PG and let them choose to fit the plate or fit an MLU. Give the T1 Barges more than 1 Mid slot. Then you can start to complain about their raw EHP. |
Solstice Project
Brave Newbies Inc.
2748
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 10:43:00 -
[25] - Quote
I haven't noticed anything like this. Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire |
baltec1
Bat Country
5243
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 10:55:00 -
[26] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:baltec1 wrote:Herr Wilkus wrote:A Procurer costs 7 Million ISK, and has almost 30K EHP untanked. Yeah, makes sense. Fun fact. My arbi with a 1600 plate has less tank than an untanked procurer. It also barely out tanks an untanked mack which now has a bigger base EHP than the heavy assault ships. Fun fact, your Arbi (A t1 Ewar cruiser....) has enough PG to fit a 1600 Plate. A T2 Barge, does not. If you want to take the raw EHP away from barges, then give them that PG and let them choose to fit the plate or fit an MLU. Give the T1 Barges more than 1 Mid slot. Then you can start to complain about their raw EHP. You could easily tank all three exhumers way past the point of being unprofitable pre buff. The irony here is that we were calling for a PG/CPU buff not an EHP buff. |
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
691
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 10:59:00 -
[27] - Quote
I guess the thing that just sticks in my craw the most is that CCP essentially redesigned these ships around terrible and/or lazy play.
Whatever people think about ganking, its an active process. Gankers are actually 'playing' the game. Gankers need to know exactly how the game works - how to deal with Concord, how to assess a target, how to compromise those fits, how to work as a team. On top of handling logistics and 'white knights'. All at our expense in terms of extra accounts, ISK and effort. Catalysts and Tornados weren't designed for gankers. Orca's weren't designed for ninjas. But we MADE them work, and when CCP discovered it, they nerfed them.
Miners? CCP came to the conclusion that they just weren't going to learn how to tank, so gave it to them for free. They wanted AFK ISK -so gave them huge cargo capability - also for free. Bots and multiboxers multiply. Except for the poor Hulk, left behind. Now its almost extinct and prices crashed from 300M to 200M on them overnight.
Flawed, rushed rebalance, all built around the refusal of miners to even learn the basics.
It would be like Vagabond pilots whining about losing too many Vagabonds, crying for 3x as much speed, and then getting it, even if it makes no sense.
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Tora Bushido
EVE Corporation 987654321-POP The Marmite Collective
235
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 10:59:00 -
[28] - Quote
Yeh, highsec isnt as safe as most expect it to be If you want to be safe, goto nul sec, as our targets often say My resists to bad posts are 78-89-83-90 ....... The metal head plate increased it by 5%.
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Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
393
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 11:29:00 -
[29] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:You could easily tank all three exhumers way past the point of being unprofitable pre buff. The irony here is that we were calling for a PG/CPU buff not an EHP buff.
One Catalyst could easily destroy tanked Retriever and have time to get tanked Procurer to structure after that. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
148
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 11:37:00 -
[30] - Quote
Herr Wilkus wrote:
Except for the poor Hulk, left behind. Now its almost extinct and prices crashed from 300M to 200M on them overnight.
Right up until you said this..... you might have had some credibility. But CCP's graphs released a week ago show the Hulk is still the money maker of the exhumers overall, hauling in large quantities of ore consistantly. Of course, they happen to be doing this in null sec, in grav sites, out of your high sec 'elite PvPers' sight.... So you ignore the actual facts and simply go off the High Sec Ice belts for what exists. Ore miners are never AFK, they may be 'AFW' for 60 second intervals sometimes, who wouldn't be when faced with that boring a cycle for hours on end. But never AFK for anything significant, or their mining stops. Ice Miners are the only people this accusation has basis against.
So..... maybe, just maybe.... you are badly biased on this subject. And CCP had a point behind what they did. Probably they based EHP numbers to avoid Barges fitting all sorts of non mining related modules, thats my guess. Since we can imagine a 1000 PWG, 400 CPU Procurer being used for all sorts of things I'm sure. Not to say it's not actually my prefered option.
But... we can just imagine there are really 2 more lows & 2 more mids on every barge and that they are auto fitted with plates & extenders on every barge instead. And then they are fitted for tank :P.
Was it 'lazy'. Not by CCP, I'm quite sure they will have gamed out 10,000 scenarios as part of their balancing. Was it lazy by miners? I'm sure most miners would love more flexibility & more slots to fit modules into. |
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Jonah Gravenstein
Gordian Knot Holdings
5715
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 11:39:00 -
[31] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:baltec1 wrote:You could easily tank all three exhumers way past the point of being unprofitable pre buff. The irony here is that we were calling for a PG/CPU buff not an EHP buff. One Catalyst could easily destroy tanked Retriever and have time to get tanked Procurer to structure after that.
You overestimate the glorious power of the Catalyst, a properly tanked Procuror can hit close to 62k EHP and will quite happily shrug off multiple Catalysts to survive way past Concord response time.
I am Ohm of Borg, Resistance is Voltage/Current. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1157
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 11:40:00 -
[32] - Quote
Herr Wilkus wrote:Kate stark wrote: why would we? you already said it's unprofitable to gank a hulk with 16k+ehp, and you can get that from a max yield fit. what is there to change?
if it's unprofitable to gank that, then you're evidently only ganking me for the lulz, and if lulz is what you want no amount of tank is going to save me is it?
Why would miners change, indeed? Forum Whine-tank seems to work pretty well in light of recent CCP buffs to Concord and EHP. Untanked 'mining ships' now have significantly more EHP than untanked T2 and T1 Combat ships. A Procurer costs 7 Million ISK, and has almost 30K EHP untanked. Yeah, makes sense.
They /should/ cost around 24-25 million. The 7 million is an artifact of the massive stocks produced before the buff. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities.As well as mysql and CSV/XLS conversions of the Static Data Extract. |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
393
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 11:43:00 -
[33] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:baltec1 wrote:You could easily tank all three exhumers way past the point of being unprofitable pre buff. The irony here is that we were calling for a PG/CPU buff not an EHP buff. One Catalyst could easily destroy tanked Retriever and have time to get tanked Procurer to structure after that. You overestimate the glorious power of the Catalyst, a properly tanked Procuror can hit close to 62k EHP and will quite happily shrug off multiple Catalysts to survive way past Concord response time.
Nope, at least not without officer mods.
Keywords: pre buff |
Jonah Gravenstein
Gordian Knot Holdings
5721
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 11:59:00 -
[34] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Keywords: pre buff
I am Ohm of Borg, Resistance is Voltage/Current. |
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
692
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 12:06:00 -
[35] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Right up until you said this..... you might have had some credibility. But CCP's graphs released a week ago show the Hulk is still the money maker of the exhumers overall, hauling in large quantities of ore consistantly. Of course, they happen to be doing this in null sec, in grav sites, out of your high sec 'elite PvPers' sight.... So you ignore the actual facts and simply go off the High Sec Ice belts for what exists. Ore miners are never AFK, they may be 'AFW' for 60 second intervals sometimes, who wouldn't be when faced with that boring a cycle for hours on end. But never AFK for anything significant, or their mining stops. Ice Miners are the only people this accusation has basis against.
Was it 'lazy'. Not by CCP, I'm quite sure they will have gamed out 10,000 scenarios as part of their balancing. Was it lazy by miners? I'm sure most miners would love more flexibility & more slots to fit modules into.
I based my anal-sis on two things.
A) Market value of Hulks crashed by 1/3rd - while build costs and gankability stayed the same. Clear fall in demand. B) My own experience roaming high sec, ice belts and asteroid fields. Can't speak for nullsec.
Hulks, of course, die on sight - but you simply don't see them very often. And I get the feeling that quite a few of them are 'Legacy Hulks' - as many are STILL FIT with cargo expanders and Cargo rigs. Relics that are disappearing from highsec as we find them and/or products of low-information miners who read an obsolete guide and still think 'Hulk is the best!'
I generally see 70% Mackinaws and Retrievers if not more. If a system has been dealing with sustained ganking operations you start to see Skiffs and Procs, and a smattering of hard-tanked Macks. Hulks are a rare treat found occasionally in belts. Don't think I've seen a single Covetor yet. |
Arduemont
Tempest Legion Corcoran State
1225
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 12:17:00 -
[36] - Quote
My alt uses one that has a small shield booster, invulnerably field, two extenders in the rigs and a damage control in the lows. It's cap stable, so they run permanently. Also, the chap who gives us boosts has maxed shield and armour boost.
My alt, despite being an indy character, has his tank skills all on 4 and the occasional 5 as well. Tank is important, especially, for a miner. Make sure to get your cap skills up as well so you can run your tank mods permanently. "In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." |
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
581
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 12:43:00 -
[37] - Quote
Arduemont wrote:My alt uses one that has a small shield booster, invulnerably field, two extenders in the rigs and a damage control in the lows. It's cap stable, so they run permanently. Also, the chap who gives us boosts has maxed shield and armour boost.
My alt, despite being an indy character, has his tank skills all on 4 and the occasional 5 as well. Tank is important, especially, for a miner. Make sure to get your cap skills up as well so you can run your tank mods permanently.
Well we should add that you also need to have proper skills to tank a T2 (!!!!!) exhumer. Frankly, before you can not tank it (that includes cap stability ergo all energy skills...) you should not fly it. As for why I am seeing T1 fitted T2 miners at all....I really do not know...stop complaining
"Also, your boobs " -á CCP Eterne, 2012
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Abrazzar
792
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 12:53:00 -
[38] - Quote
Here's to all miners: Train up to get the Hull Tanking, Elite certificate. Make it public. Fit a damage control.
This way you let suicide monkeys know that you are no simple pi+¦ata and they will look for easier targets elsewhere. Mining Overhaul Nothing changed since 2008. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
1362
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 13:36:00 -
[39] - Quote
Dexen Echerie wrote:So for months and months, everything was cool. Mining in Hi-sec was just fine, and suicide ganking was rare (at least in the systems i mined in).
My friends and I decied to move our operation to a different system, just for a change of pace, but noticed quite a bit of suicide ganking going on there, so we moved about 25 jumps away, back to our old neighborhood. Then yesterday, outta nowhere (and completely out of character for the system) my mining gang gets suicide ganked. They only got once of us, but still, kinda lame.
I know it happens, wasn't even all that surprised. What got me was when today, we got hit AGAIN in a different system. Same M.O., though I didn't recognize any of the names from the day before...
This isn't so much a (edited to: complaining) post as it is a question...
Anyone else noticing a rise in suicide ganking lately? Or have I just been unlucky?
Random Suicide Gank Generator is Random.
|
Ptraci
Militaris Industries Northern Coalition.
1253
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 13:37:00 -
[40] - Quote
Dexen Echerie wrote:Anyone else noticing a rise in suicide ganking lately? Or have I just been unlucky?
Yes I get a rise out of suicide g.... wait, what?
|
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Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
393
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 13:39:00 -
[41] - Quote
Herr Wilkus wrote:I generally see 70% Mackinaws and Retrievers if not more. If a system has been dealing with sustained ganking operations you start to see Skiffs and Procs, and a smattering of hard-tanked Macks. Hulks are a rare treat found occasionally in belts. Don't think I've seen a single Covetor yet.
If miner mines alone with just one ship, why should he/she use Hulk instead of Mack? |
Kate stark
137
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 13:44:00 -
[42] - Quote
Beckie DeLey wrote:Kate stark wrote:why would we? you already said it's unprofitable to gank a hulk with 16k+ehp, and you can get that from a max yield fit. what is there to change? Well, at least you agree that there's a problem. i didn't say it was a problem. i just said that you could fit for max yield and still be unprofitable to gank. if some one wants to gank you, then they can. they just can't do it for profit, as per CCP's intention.
Whitehound wrote:He wants to get ganked less and not more.
One can tank a Skiff to 100k-125k eHP. It is half the eHP of a freighter, at a signature of ~230m.
oh my mistake, i thought he wanted to make more isk.
i really must stop thinking people want to make the most isk/hour from an isk making activity... |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
570
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 13:45:00 -
[43] - Quote
Get a full implanted/boosted toon and 90K EHP tank Skiff fleet, imune to everything but hauling *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
Kate stark
137
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 13:52:00 -
[44] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote: But CCP's graphs released a week ago show the Hulk is still the money maker of the exhumers overall, hauling in large quantities of ore consistantly.
actually, take a look at the numbers again.
the ONLY high sec ore to have more than 35% volume for the hulk is kernite. the rest have less than 30%. with the other covetor seeing as much use as the skiff and the procurer (which, is close to nothing) then where's the other 70% going?
the only other options that are left are the ships fit for cargo bay. so no, the hulk isn't really the money maker of exhumers overall. in fact, the increase in popularity of the retriever shows that exhumers no longer have an iron clad claim to being "money makers".
the only place hulks are seeing significant use is on high end ores, thus, outside of high sec. guess what doesn't matter in non-concord space? can flipping, and ehp. it's not difficult to see why the numbers are as they are. however saying the hulk is still the money maker, is far from true in high sec. as this thread is about ganking, high sec is the only sec that is relevant here. |
Kate stark
137
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 13:53:00 -
[45] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:Get a full implanted/boosted toon and 90K EHP tank Skiff fleet, imune to everything but hauling
or swap the skiff for a retriever and make more isk while not getting ganked a single time unless you like to mine 1 jump from jita and tell every one how bad their mother was last night as she was taking a ride on your disco stick. |
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
692
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 13:54:00 -
[46] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Herr Wilkus wrote:I generally see 70% Mackinaws and Retrievers if not more. If a system has been dealing with sustained ganking operations you start to see Skiffs and Procs, and a smattering of hard-tanked Macks. Hulks are a rare treat found occasionally in belts. Don't think I've seen a single Covetor yet. If miner mines alone with just one ship, why should he/she use Hulk instead of Mack?
Let me turn that around for you.
When miners have access to a fleet (meaning: ample cargo space), why are they STILL opting to mine in Mackinaws?
Hulks 'supposed' to be the clear choice in a fleet setting.
Answer: ******, rushed, balancing by CCP. They literally tripped over their own dicks in an effort to kill Hulkaggeddon.
Cargo, Tank, Yield. Hulk is 3rd, 3rd, and 1st. Mack is 1st, 2nd, and 2nd. Skiff is 2nd, 1st, and very narrowly 3rd.
Easiest fix would be to swap the Hulks' EHP for the Macks'. That would balance AFK cargo convenience against increased ganking risk. High yield of Hulk is already offset by small cargo hold micro-requirement.
But miners will cry because they want their one-size fits all Mackinaws.
|
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
393
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 13:58:00 -
[47] - Quote
Kate stark wrote:they just can't do it for profit
- Build Mackinaw - Sell Mackinaw to miner (+ 180M) - Build 3 Catalysts and T2 mods for them (- 10M)
+170M at this point
- Gank Mackinaw - You get 12-15M from loot and 25M from salvage
Profit: 207M - 210M
Problem solved. |
Kate stark
137
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 14:02:00 -
[48] - Quote
Herr Wilkus wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:Herr Wilkus wrote:I generally see 70% Mackinaws and Retrievers if not more. If a system has been dealing with sustained ganking operations you start to see Skiffs and Procs, and a smattering of hard-tanked Macks. Hulks are a rare treat found occasionally in belts. Don't think I've seen a single Covetor yet. If miner mines alone with just one ship, why should he/she use Hulk instead of Mack? Let me turn that around for you. When miners have access to a fleet (meaning: ample cargo space), why are they STILL opting to mine in Mackinaws? Hulks 'supposed' to be the clear choice in a fleet setting. Answer: ******, rushed, balancing by CCP. They literally tripped over their own dicks in an effort to kill Hulkaggeddon. Cargo, Tank, Yield. Hulk is 3rd, 3rd, and 1st. Mack is 1st, 2nd, and 2nd. Skiff is 2nd, 1st, and very narrowly 3rd. Easiest fix would be to swap the Hulks' EHP for the Macks'. That would balance AFK cargo convenience against increased ganking risk. High yield of Hulk is already offset by small cargo hold micro-requirement. But miners will cry because they want their one-size fits all Mackinaws.
swapping the ehp is a sensible and common suggestion, one i fully agree with. it makes sense for two reasons, as above with the fact that the mack has the worst of nothing and the hulk has worst of two things. also every cargo module reduces ehp, so why does the mackinaw not have the lowest hp as if the cargo were expanded by normal means?
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Kate stark wrote:they just can't do it for profit - Build Mackinaw - Sell Mackinaw to miner (+ 180M) - Build 3 Catalysts and T2 mods for them (- 10M) +170M at this point - Gank Mackinaw - You get 12-15M from loot and 25M from salvage Profit: 207M - 210M Problem solved.
you know you just typed out a whole load of crap, right? |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
393
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 14:16:00 -
[49] - Quote
Kate stark wrote:you know you just typed out a whole load of crap, right?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy |
Kate stark
138
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 14:19:00 -
[50] - Quote
buying and selling ships has nothing to do with whether or not it's profitable to gank an exhumer. |
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stoicfaux
2362
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 14:26:00 -
[51] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Kate stark wrote:they just can't do it for profit - Build Mackinaw - Sell Mackinaw to miner (+ 180M) You make a 100% profit on Macks? No manufacturing or raw material costs whatsoever?
|
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
694
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 14:40:00 -
[52] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:Kate stark wrote:they just can't do it for profit - Build Mackinaw - Sell Mackinaw to miner (+ 180M) You make a 100% profit on Macks? No manufacturing or raw material costs whatsoever?
Eh, don't bother. Jorma has been posting for years now. Wasn' t the sharpest tool in the shed before, nothings changed.
Tutoring Jorma in economics is like showing a chicken the Space Shuttle. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1157
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 14:41:00 -
[53] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:Kate stark wrote:they just can't do it for profit - Build Mackinaw - Sell Mackinaw to miner (+ 180M) You make a 100% profit on Macks? No manufacturing or raw material costs whatsoever?
Profit margin on a Mack is approximately 8 million or so (knocking off 5 form the 13 raw for the datacore costs. Assuming no use of Decryptors). FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities.As well as mysql and CSV/XLS conversions of the Static Data Extract. |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
393
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 14:53:00 -
[54] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:stoicfaux wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:Kate stark wrote:they just can't do it for profit - Build Mackinaw - Sell Mackinaw to miner (+ 180M) You make a 100% profit on Macks? No manufacturing or raw material costs whatsoever? Profit margin on a Mack is approximately 8 million or so (knocking off 5 form the 13 raw for the datacore costs. Assuming no use of Decryptors).
You forgot that some people can get Tech for free. |
baltec1
Bat Country
5244
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 14:58:00 -
[55] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:baltec1 wrote:You could easily tank all three exhumers way past the point of being unprofitable pre buff. The irony here is that we were calling for a PG/CPU buff not an EHP buff. One Catalyst could easily destroy tanked Retriever and have time to get tanked Procurer to structure after that. Neither of those ships are exhumers |
Corey Fumimasa
Royal Caldari Imperial Guard Imperium Directive
129
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 15:00:00 -
[56] - Quote
Dexen Echerie wrote:So for months and months, everything was cool. Mining in Hi-sec was just fine, and suicide ganking was rare (at least in the systems i mined in).... I know it happens, wasn't even all that surprised. What got me was when today, we got hit AGAIN in a different system. Same M.O., though I didn't recognize any of the names from the day before...
This isn't so much a (edited to: complaining) post as it is a question...
Anyone else noticing a rise in suicide ganking lately? Or have I just been unlucky?
I live in Genesis, and like you, have seen a rise in ganking. I think lots of small timers and new players are getting into it. Which is actually very cool because they have made some mistakes and the "miners" have started to fight back a bit. I heard a story where a couple of gank fit cats got reverse ganked by a handful of frigs operated by miners. Which would just be cool if true.
As for mining in peace, have you thought about lowsec? When I get the urge to punch rocks I fit a cloak on my covetor if the pipe is busy, usually its slow enough that I just stay aligned though and keep my finger over the warp button if someone enters system. The yield isn't as good as grind mining in high, but its a lot more fun, and the rats are worth more so that helps.
Anyway, your not imagining things even if its not on the rise everywhere there is a trend happening.
This is a youtube playlist going over my first 30 ship losses. Video sucks but the audio came out well.There are some good lessons, and if you know the game there's some funny stories. |
Corey Fumimasa
Royal Caldari Imperial Guard Imperium Directive
129
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 15:04:00 -
[57] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
You forgot that some people can get Tech for free.
Resources that you harvest yourself are not free. That is one of the strangest misconceptions about economy and business that I have ever heard. And a very common one in Eve.
This is a youtube playlist going over my first 30 ship losses. Video sucks but the audio came out well.There are some good lessons, and if you know the game there's some funny stories. |
Corey Fumimasa
Royal Caldari Imperial Guard Imperium Directive
129
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 15:07:00 -
[58] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Herr Wilkus wrote:A Procurer costs 7 Million ISK, and has almost 30K EHP untanked. Yeah, makes sense. Fun fact. My arbi with a 1600 plate has less tank than an untanked procurer. It also barely out tanks an untanked mack which now has a bigger base EHP than the heavy assault ships. I now must go and buy a skiff and then go and shoot billboards.
This is a youtube playlist going over my first 30 ship losses. Video sucks but the audio came out well.There are some good lessons, and if you know the game there's some funny stories. |
flakeys
Arkham Innovations Paper Tiger Coalition
832
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 15:07:00 -
[59] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:stoicfaux wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:Kate stark wrote:they just can't do it for profit - Build Mackinaw - Sell Mackinaw to miner (+ 180M) You make a 100% profit on Macks? No manufacturing or raw material costs whatsoever? Profit margin on a Mack is approximately 8 million or so (knocking off 5 form the 13 raw for the datacore costs. Assuming no use of Decryptors). You forgot that some people can get Tech for free.
As stated above , not the most bright one ....
We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
|
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
393
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 15:08:00 -
[60] - Quote
Herr Wilkus wrote:Eh, don't bother. Jorma has been posting for years now. Wasn' t the sharpest tool in the shed before, nothings changed.
Tutoring Jorma in economics is like showing a chicken the Space Shuttle.
For you economy means "only lazy people can earn money".
In other words (in EVE): Economy: ganker gets profit Non-economy: miner gets profit |
|
Corey Fumimasa
Royal Caldari Imperial Guard Imperium Directive
129
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 15:10:00 -
[61] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Herr Wilkus wrote:Eh, don't bother. Jorma has been posting for years now. Wasn' t the sharpest tool in the shed before, nothings changed.
Tutoring Jorma in economics is like showing a chicken the Space Shuttle. For you economy means "only lazy people can earn money". In other words (in EVE): Economy: ganker gets profit Non-economy: miner gets profit
Are you RPing Minmatar here?
This is a youtube playlist going over my first 30 ship losses. Video sucks but the audio came out well.There are some good lessons, and if you know the game there's some funny stories. |
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
699
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 15:36:00 -
[62] - Quote
Corey Fumimasa wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:Herr Wilkus wrote:Eh, don't bother. Jorma has been posting for years now. Wasn' t the sharpest tool in the shed before, nothings changed.
Tutoring Jorma in economics is like showing a chicken the Space Shuttle. For you economy means "only lazy people can earn money". In other words (in EVE): Economy: ganker gets profit Non-economy: miner gets profit Are you RPing Minmatar here?
Textbook example of Dunning - Kruger effect in action.
Don't make excuses for it, just accept it. |
March rabbit
player corp n1
536
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 15:39:00 -
[63] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Herr Wilkus wrote:A Procurer costs 7 Million ISK, and has almost 30K EHP untanked. Yeah, makes sense. Fun fact. My arbi with a 1600 plate has less tank than an untanked procurer. It also barely out tanks an untanked mack which now has a bigger base EHP than the heavy assault ships. you know what to do: start arbi-geddon with all power of your mighty alliance. And after some time CCP will buff it.
(we all know that ganking arbitrators isn't fun and profitable anyway) |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
393
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 15:45:00 -
[64] - Quote
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superiority_complex |
March rabbit
player corp n1
536
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 15:50:00 -
[65] - Quote
Herr Wilkus wrote: Whatever people think about ganking, its an active process. Gankers are actually 'playing' the game. Gankers need to know exactly how the game works - how to deal with Concord, how to assess a target, how to compromise those fits, how to work as a team. On top of handling logistics and 'white knights'. All at our expense in terms of extra accounts, ISK and effort.
not a ganker here but let me try. -how to deal with CONCORD - shoot and wait until it kills you? (oh, i forgot about spawning CONCORD somewhere far away... yes, that was great tactics :hands down:) -how to assess a target - setup your overview to show mining barges/exumers? -how to compromise those fits - open EFT, enter results of ship scanner, press "ALL V" and see where lowest EHP is? Yes, need to agree: choosing right Catalyst fit and ammo is complex task.... -how to work as a team: neutral cloaked scouts, fleet warp and broadcasting target? -handling logistics: loading "clean" Orca in trade hub, dropping ship from "clean" Orca, boarding it with ganking alt and warp to target? Yea, need to agree: all of it sounds like rocket science.....
Herr Wilkus wrote: Catalysts and Tornados weren't designed for gankers. Orca's weren't designed for ninjas. But we MADE them work, and when CCP discovered it, they nerfed them.
exactly. That's why Catalysts are paper-tank cannons and can still be used for ganking (even after mining barges buff). Tornadoes? I dunno. I have never heard about glass-cannon battlecruiser with DPS of battleship and agility of cruiser. And i have never heard about freighters killed by gank of tornadoes....
PS: i like name of your corp TEARS. This is what i see in your posts lately |
Lascivit Mercator
17
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 16:01:00 -
[66] - Quote
why every mining op doesn't include a scimmy and a falcon/rook is beyond me... I like to multiply with sheep |
Verfanny
Seamap Solutions
27
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 16:04:00 -
[67] - Quote
Why is everything in GD always devolving about miners vs nullsec players?
It always goes like this:
Player 1: Ha ha I'm a high sec player and like them potatoes.
Player 2: AARRRRGH Those filthy miners can get many potatoes without risking their nuts, it's not fair for us mighty nullsec.
Player 3: Why do you care about potatoes when you get infine carrots because of your blue donut?
etc... |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
393
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 16:14:00 -
[68] - Quote
Lascivit Mercator wrote:why every mining op doesn't include a scimmy and a falcon/rook is beyond me...
Falcon is a bad ship for anything like that.
Mostly because you have massive targeting delay after decloaking = gank is already over before Falcon gets target lock.
Rook? What? You want to shoot gankers? Try 800mm Nado instead = even max fitted Catalyst goes down with two volleys of RF Fusion L. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7624
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 16:21:00 -
[69] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Lascivit Mercator wrote:why every mining op doesn't include a scimmy and a falcon/rook is beyond me... Falcon is a bad ship for anything like that. Mostly because you have massive targeting delay after decloaking = gank is already over before Falcon gets target lock. Rook? What? You want to shoot gankers? Try 800mm Nado instead = even max fitted Catalyst goes down with two volleys of RF Fusion L.
Jorma Morkiss in "sensible post in a suicide ganking thread" sensation! Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Corey Fumimasa
Royal Caldari Imperial Guard Imperium Directive
129
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 16:23:00 -
[70] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Lascivit Mercator wrote:why every mining op doesn't include a scimmy and a falcon/rook is beyond me... Falcon is a bad ship for anything like that. Mostly because you have massive targeting delay after decloaking = gank is already over before Falcon gets target lock. Rook? What? You want to shoot gankers? Try 800mm Nado instead = even max fitted Catalyst goes down with two volleys of RF Fusion L.
Prolly just having a logi ship on grid would be enough to dissuade gankers. Give a noob a few million to leave a couple of mining lazers off and fit remote repper's. Of course they may gank the noob, but thats ok, better than loosing a barge.
This is a youtube playlist going over my first 30 ship losses. Video sucks but the audio came out well.There are some good lessons, and if you know the game there's some funny stories. |
|
Karl Hobb
Stellar Ore Refinery and Crematorium
1153
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 16:25:00 -
[71] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:Lascivit Mercator wrote:why every mining op doesn't include a scimmy and a falcon/rook is beyond me... Falcon is a bad ship for anything like that. Mostly because you have massive targeting delay after decloaking = gank is already over before Falcon gets target lock. Rook? What? You want to shoot gankers? Try 800mm Nado instead = even max fitted Catalyst goes down with two volleys of RF Fusion L. Jorma Morkiss in "sensible post in a suicide ganking thread" sensation! It won't last. If you're not already part of a bloc, this is the best guy for CSM8. |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
393
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 16:29:00 -
[72] - Quote
Karl Hobb wrote:It won't last.
True, but you can't expect much from quad Gyro quad SeBo Nado. If someone wants it destroyed, not much tank to stop them. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7626
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 16:30:00 -
[73] - Quote
Karl Hobb wrote:Malcanis wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:Lascivit Mercator wrote:why every mining op doesn't include a scimmy and a falcon/rook is beyond me... Falcon is a bad ship for anything like that. Mostly because you have massive targeting delay after decloaking = gank is already over before Falcon gets target lock. Rook? What? You want to shoot gankers? Try 800mm Nado instead = even max fitted Catalyst goes down with two volleys of RF Fusion L. Jorma Morkiss in "sensible post in a suicide ganking thread" sensation! It won't last.
That's why it's so sensational. Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Captain Tardbar
NEWB ALERT
102
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 16:37:00 -
[74] - Quote
Verfanny wrote:Why is everything in GD always devolving about miners vs nullsec players?
It always goes like this:
Player 1: Ha ha I'm a high sec player and like them potatoes.
Player 2: AARRRRGH Those filthy gardeners can get many potatoes without risking their nuts, it's not fair for us mighty nullsec.
Player 3: Why do you care about potatoes when you get infinite carrots because of your blue donut?
etc...
Panties. Meet wad. "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
699
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 16:41:00 -
[75] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:Herr Wilkus wrote: Whatever people think about ganking, its an active process. Gankers are actually 'playing' the game. Gankers need to know exactly how the game works - how to deal with Concord, how to assess a target, how to compromise those fits, how to work as a team. On top of handling logistics and 'white knights'. All at our expense in terms of extra accounts, ISK and effort.
not a ganker here but let me try. -how to deal with CONCORD - shoot and wait until it kills you? (oh, i forgot about spawning CONCORD somewhere far away... yes, that was great tactics :hands down:) -how to assess a target - setup your overview to show mining barges/exumers? -how to compromise those fits - open EFT, enter results of ship scanner, press "ALL V" and see where lowest EHP is? Yes, need to agree: choosing right Catalyst fit and ammo is complex task.... -how to work as a team: neutral cloaked scouts, fleet warp and broadcasting target? -handling logistics: loading "clean" Orca in trade hub, dropping ship from "clean" Orca, boarding it with ganking alt and warp to target? Yea, need to agree: all of it sounds like rocket science.....
Here is your homework assignment: Write a script that can accomplish these tasks. Have yet to hear complaints about botting gankers.
The takeaway was, in case you missed it - was a comparison between activity level of miners and gankers. Didn't say ganking required a genius IQ - but it does require know-how and taking an interest in game mechanics.
Contrast that with miners who regularly leave slots empty on their Exhumers despite seeing barges exploding around them. Gank resistant, tanked Hulk/Mack fits were common place on the forums, the best fits often provided by the gankers themselves. And tanks weren't even strictly necessary - if you simply paid attention and stayed aligned.
If miners showed an equivalent interest in EVE game mechanics and fitting - rather than simply grinding ISK AFK with zero effort while watching movies - our ganking success rates would fall off to almost zero overnight. And miners who actively took an interest in their survival did quite well for themselves - pre-buff.
Gankers, who haven't figured this stuff out, fail all the time. Due to random number damage generation and random loot drops, even the best of us fail now and again. Because its a relatively complex task, and a single misclick or lag spike sinks you. And these days, ganking miners isn't even really profitable with max skills and perfect tactics. Fortunately, the ganking community is quick to assist the new gankers, and show them the ropes, help them get started. The sort of thing that I thought EVE was about.
Yet CCP changed game mechanics to REWARD disinterested, lazy, and automated play. ISBoxing, Massive cargo bays, 4x EHP, faster Concord, boarding/ejecting restrictions on gankers, increase sec penalties and kill rights.
Because botting, mining while tabbed out, running fleets of 20-100 Barges with garbage names and a 3rd party utility, thats EVE right? |
Kate stark
143
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 16:57:00 -
[76] - Quote
Lascivit Mercator wrote:why every mining op doesn't include a scimmy and a falcon/rook is beyond me...
because they aren't mining? bit of a give away.. MINING op. |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
393
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 17:13:00 -
[77] - Quote
Kate stark wrote:Lascivit Mercator wrote:why every mining op doesn't include a scimmy and a falcon/rook is beyond me... because they aren't mining? bit of a give away.. MINING op.
But it is a very good way to test how smart or stupid ganker (yes, they work solo, no team spirit) actually is.
Though I have yet to see successful anti-gank. They are usually too smart or underestimate capabilities of their ships. |
Corey Fumimasa
Royal Caldari Imperial Guard Imperium Directive
130
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 18:14:00 -
[78] - Quote
So the mining buffs do seem excessive; however I just took a procurer into lowsec to try out this incredible tank. I sent my drones after billbaords and sentry guns and gates. Attacked passing frigates with impunity. And eventually died in an epic fireball running for the gate from 4 other ships. It was really a lot of fun.
Next time Im going to drop the ancillary shield booster for ECM, and fit a drone link aug in the high or something. This ship isn't just a miner, what it really allows is for miners to get used to fighting a ship. Frig combat happens too quickly to learn from, this thing took almost a minute to kill. And all for 10 million ISK or something. Maybe thats what CCP was thinking when they designed it.
In any case if you like to mine, get one of those things and head into lowsec preferably with a few budides in the system behind you. I recommend a name like "bait ship one" or something.
This is a youtube playlist going over my first 30 ship losses. Video sucks but the audio came out well.There are some good lessons, and if you know the game there's some funny stories. |
Kate stark
143
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Posted - 2013.02.15 18:17:00 -
[79] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Kate stark wrote:Lascivit Mercator wrote:why every mining op doesn't include a scimmy and a falcon/rook is beyond me... because they aren't mining? bit of a give away.. MINING op. But it is a very good way to test how smart or stupid ganker (yes, they work solo, no team spirit) actually is. Though I have yet to see successful anti-gank. They are usually too smart or underestimate capabilities of their ships.
the successful anti gank is called the retriever. i see them everywhere. |
I Love Boobies
All Hail Boobies
355
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Posted - 2013.02.15 18:24:00 -
[80] - Quote
Put on a damage control, a couple invulnerability fields. Also, I am assuming you are using a Orca for boosting if you're doing mining ops like that. Put on shield and armor boosting command mods instead of all mining mods. Just put on the time reduction mining command module. Get 30k hp that way with decent shield resists. Also, keep repair drones in your Orca. ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o )
The world would be a better place if boobies ran the world instead of boobs. |
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Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
700
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Posted - 2013.02.15 18:39:00 -
[81] - Quote
Kate stark wrote:
the successful anti gank is called the retriever. i see them everywhere.
If you are saying that 'You won't get ganked in a retriever.' I'll have to disagree. CODE goes through tons of them.
Younger gankers cut their teeth on them, and older gankers do it solo, mainly so they can squash the pod as well.
Also, its important to distinguish between older chars and younger vicims, and the damage you can do to them - in a relative sense. Its hilarous to blow away that 1 month old carrying all his worthless crap in an Itty II, even if the net worth isn't going to pay for your ship. Why? Because you took away everything he owned.
Younger, poorer miners are much easier to hurt. Killing their pod and implants can sometimes nearly wipe them out. Whereas, a five-year old player loosing a Hulk isn't as likely to be bothered. Losing a Hulk + a 500M ISK pod might sting, but anyone with 5 years invested in EVE isn't quitting over it.
On the other hand, if you are arguing that Retrievers DO get ganked - but they aren't hard to replace? Especially if you mine without implants, platinum insure and use cheap mods? Sure, the ganks won't really hurt.....much. |
Kate stark
145
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Posted - 2013.02.15 18:58:00 -
[82] - Quote
let's not be silly. ganking happens, that's a fact.
the reality though, is what's more inconvenient. losing isk because you're mining less stuff because you're flying something suboptimal for mining? or losing isk because you're replacing disposable throw away ships?
now unless some one is literally stalking you and blowing you up every time you undock, the latter is less of an inconvenience, generally. |
Corey Fumimasa
Royal Caldari Imperial Guard Imperium Directive
130
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Posted - 2013.02.15 19:02:00 -
[83] - Quote
Kate stark wrote:let's not be silly. ganking happens, that's a fact.
the reality though, is what's more inconvenient. losing isk because you're mining less stuff because you're flying something suboptimal for mining? or losing isk because you're replacing disposable throw away ships?
now unless some one is literally stalking you and blowing you up every time you undock, the latter is less of an inconvenience, generally.
Your right! When someone gets ganked they should loose the SP's required to fly that ship.
This is a youtube playlist going over my first 30 ship losses. Video sucks but the audio came out well.There are some good lessons, and if you know the game there's some funny stories. |
Kate stark
145
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 19:13:00 -
[84] - Quote
Corey Fumimasa wrote:Kate stark wrote:let's not be silly. ganking happens, that's a fact.
the reality though, is what's more inconvenient. losing isk because you're mining less stuff because you're flying something suboptimal for mining? or losing isk because you're replacing disposable throw away ships?
now unless some one is literally stalking you and blowing you up every time you undock, the latter is less of an inconvenience, generally. Your right! When someone gets ganked they should loose the SP's required to fly that ship.
T3s for everyone! |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
1607
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Posted - 2013.02.15 19:19:00 -
[85] - Quote
Dexen Echerie wrote:My impression was that worrying too much about tanking in hi-sec was pointless... mostly because if someone plans to get you in hi-sec, they'll find a way. Any suggestions for a good tanked Mack, then? Although its true they can always gank you, consider:
It takes more people. They may not always be able to get sufficient people on-line. Its more expensive. Gankers usually do not like "grinding for ISK", so they may not have much. 8 gankers can gank 4 untanked miners at a time, but only one tanked miner at a time. You are cutting into their productivity, and reducing the chances you will be the one getting ganked.
As for the tank, shield extenders, invulnerabilites, and a damage control. And do not forget the siege warfare mindlink and shield harmonizing ganglink for the Orca pilot. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
895
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Posted - 2013.02.15 20:08:00 -
[86] - Quote
ProTip: You can safely assume that any ganker will be flying a Catalyst with anti-matter blasters, because 99% of gankers are completely devoid of imagination.
This means you can ignore EM & explosive resist and focus entirely on kinetic & thermal resist. Even assuming their debatable claims of 700DPS are true, what this really means is about 400 in kinetic & 300 in thermal for roughly ten seconds (assuming you're in 0.8 or above), so at most they'll do 4000 kinetic and 3000 thermal damage... but that's before resists. Getting your kinetic & thermal resists into the 75% range is actually pretty darn easy, which means after resists kick in you're looking at about 1000 kinetic and 750 thermal into your shields.
Next figure a decently tanked Mackinaw is going to have 5000+ shield HP alone and so we're looking at three suicide Catalysts just to break through the shields. Then your armor comes into play, which will probably soak another suicide Catalyst and after that you've got your DC2 giving you 60% resist in your hull (which is another two suicide Catalysts right there). So right there you're looking at at least five coordinated gank Catalysts to bring down a decently tanked Mackinaw. I'm sure other people out there have fits that can feed even more wannabes to CONCORD as well.
The final step though, for me at least, is a full flight of Vespa EC-600s. While they only have 1.5 of ECM (and can't be boosted past that, sadly), your Catalyst ganker only has a sensor strength of 11. While each drone only has about a 12% chance of jamming, with five up them you've got about a 60% of jamming them outright, which lowers their DPS to zero and turns them into Hors d'CONCORD (the jam will last longer than it takes for CONCORD to Zeus them out of existence).
That extra bit of randomness is also something gankers can't stomach at all, as they generally only gank if their little DPS spreadsheets promise them a 100% chance of success before they even undock.
So can such a ship still be ganked? Of course it can. Someone with a dozen ships could certainly take it down. But this isn't Hulkaggedon anymore, and this new generation of ganker has not shown anything near the level of organization that the Goons did back in the day.
Final part: Although a Retriever can't pack anywhere near the same level of tank as a Mackinaw (let alone a Skiff), it can still pack in enough to make it so that the number of Catalysts required to take it down would actually cost more than the Retriever itself. So in that respect a tanked Retriever is winning even when they lose and maye be the superior choice when it comes to gank resistance. EvE Forum Bingo |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
12893
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 20:34:00 -
[87] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Exhumer ganks are at a record low. General rule: any time someone asks Gǣis ganking on the rise?Gǥ, you can be pretty sure that it has become so rare that a single gank is enough to shock the general publicGǪ Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |
stoicfaux
2376
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Posted - 2013.02.15 21:04:00 -
[88] - Quote
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
The final step though, for me at least, is a full flight of Vespa EC-600s. While they only have 1.5 of ECM (and can't be boosted past that, sadly), your Catalyst ganker only has a sensor strength of 11. While each drone only has about a 12% chance of jamming, with five up them you've got about a 60% of jamming them outright, which lowers their DPS to zero and turns them into Hors d'CONCORD (the jam will last longer than it takes for CONCORD to Zeus them out of existence).
This has come up before. ECM doesn't take effect until the end of the jam cycle (i.e. 20 seconds later.) So ECM drones aren't useful.
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Ludi Burek
The Player Haters Corp
229
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Posted - 2013.02.15 23:27:00 -
[89] - Quote
March rabbit wrote: not a ganker here but let me try. -how to deal with CONCORD - shoot and wait until it kills you? (oh, i forgot about spawning CONCORD somewhere far away... yes, that was great tactics :hands down:) -how to assess a target - setup your overview to show mining barges/exumers? -how to compromise those fits - open EFT, enter results of ship scanner, press "ALL V" and see where lowest EHP is? Yes, need to agree: choosing right Catalyst fit and ammo is complex task.... -how to work as a team: neutral cloaked scouts, fleet warp and broadcasting target? -handling logistics: loading "clean" Orca in trade hub, dropping ship from "clean" Orca, boarding it with ganking alt and warp to target? Yea, need to agree: all of it sounds like rocket science.....
Pretty close. Do it for a while and you'll find that you do not need to cloak the scout. Just approach miner and scan him and park next to him since he's afk anyway
Also, orcas are for the perfectionist pros. I would just set up an undock bookmark and warp to it and then warp to uncloaked hauler alt parked right up the miners ass. |
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