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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |

Whitehound
1057
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Posted - 2013.02.28 21:38:00 -
[151] - Quote
Aren Madigan wrote:Whitehound wrote:Aren Madigan wrote:And nothing you said was an argument against my previous statement. I cannot help you when you are too blind to see the obvious. High-sec is the high security space where players get protection. This includes protection from players with your mindset. I believe you've missed the part where I was against expanding wardecs. But hey, whatever floats your boat. You want to resort to personal attacks, that's your problem. There's plenty of ways to provide protection without being a total **** to one side. Get out of high-sec. It just is not the fault of high-sec players when they do not want to fight, but it is your own when you can always go into low- or null-sec and fight your wars there, free from all CONCORD fees, and where players want you to come and to fight. Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |

Natsett Amuinn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1876
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Posted - 2013.02.28 21:42:00 -
[152] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Natsett Amuinn wrote:It's not losing anything when you do that I have an issue with. HTFU. Buddy, the only person here who needs to "HTFU" is the guy insisting that the NPC corps are there for you to avoid a wardec, YOU.
I lose something if I drop corp, pretty much everyone not in high sec does.
You on the other hand are a member of a one man corp, in a one corp alliance.
You're in no position to tell other to HTFU.
How about you learn to ******* play.
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Natsett Amuinn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1876
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Posted - 2013.02.28 21:43:00 -
[153] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:
Get out of high-sec. It just is not the fault of high-sec players when they do not want to fight, but it is your own when you can always go into low- or null-sec and fight your wars there, free from all CONCORD fees, and where players want you to come and to fight.
GTFO
Wardecs are not intended to be done only in low and null, where they're the least improtant. |

Aren Madigan
EVE University Ivy League
144
|
Posted - 2013.02.28 21:45:00 -
[154] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Aren Madigan wrote:Whitehound wrote:Aren Madigan wrote:And nothing you said was an argument against my previous statement. I cannot help you when you are too blind to see the obvious. High-sec is the high security space where players get protection. This includes protection from players with your mindset. I believe you've missed the part where I was against expanding wardecs. But hey, whatever floats your boat. You want to resort to personal attacks, that's your problem. There's plenty of ways to provide protection without being a total **** to one side. Get out of high-sec. It just is not the fault of high-sec players when they do not want to fight, but it is your own when you can always go into low- or null-sec and fight your wars there, free from all CONCORD fees, and where players want you to come and to fight.
Now you're just not listening. |

Whitehound
1057
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Posted - 2013.02.28 22:07:00 -
[155] - Quote
Natsett Amuinn wrote:Buddy, the only person here who needs to "HTFU" is the guy insisting that the NPC corps are there for you to avoid a wardec, .... Your logic is beginning to fall apart. NPC corps have always been there to avoid war decs.
Aren Madigan wrote:Now you're just not listening. Nor paying attention to my corp in a subject where you probably should, ironically one of the few times corp would matter. I don't imagine I'm paying for any wardecs from E-UNI. Oh, I am listening, but I am also waiting for the truth to sink into your head. Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |

Aren Madigan
EVE University Ivy League
144
|
Posted - 2013.02.28 22:08:00 -
[156] - Quote
Whitehound wrote: Oh, I am listening, but I am also waiting for the truth to sink into your head.
Obviously not because you keep insisting that I want to be able to wardec anyone freely when I at no point suggested that. |

Whitehound
1057
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Posted - 2013.02.28 22:18:00 -
[157] - Quote
Aren Madigan wrote:Whitehound wrote: Oh, I am listening, but I am also waiting for the truth to sink into your head.
Obviously not because you keep insisting that I want to be able to wardec anyone freely when I at no point suggested that. Am I? Or am I telling you that you are wrong in your belief of a fair war-dec?
Tell me, when was EVE ever about fairness? At best does one get a fair chance on something. However, there has never been a guarantee on fair fights, fair costs, fair losses, or on anything else.
Please, if you think I am wrong then show me where. Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |

Natsett Amuinn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1877
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Posted - 2013.02.28 22:22:00 -
[158] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:[quote=Natsett Amuinn]Buddy, the only person here who needs to "HTFU" is the guy insisting that the NPC corps are there for you to avoid a wardec, .... Your logic is beginning to fall apart. NPC corps have always been there to avoid war decs.
No ****. I agreed with you!
I even said that the problem isn't being able to drop your corp to avoid a wardec.
The problem is having nothing to lose when you drop from your corp in high sec. You're response is to HTFU. This is a fact. Not a guy who flies around in null sec, with a freighter loaded with billions in cargo, needing to HTFU.
CCP wants you to play in a player run corp, and they want you to have a reason to deal with a wardec. I shouldn't even have to point this **** out anymore, everyone is aware of the conversation they had with the CSM's by now.
Instead of being a ****** EVE player and telling people wardecs don't belong in high sec, why don't you actually offer ideas on ways they can get players into corporations and stay there when they'res a war.
The majority of all industry is done in high sec. WTF is wrong with you people that think just because we do industry, we have no need or desire for war. You take war to where your enemy lives, in the case of every industrial and especially high sec indy corps, that's high sec.
The hell do I want to wardec a PvP or mission running corp for if I'm an industrial. It's the other industrialists that are my enemy, they're the ones who take profit from me.
Shame on you.
Quit trying to make my playstyle worse! Not every industrialist is a coward, afraid to get blown up, or god forbid actually shoot someone out of need.
This is EVE goddamn it. We resolve disputes by blowing people up, or reducing their ability to operate. War allows me to do that, but not if they can drop to the NPC corp and continue to function as well.
Industrialists are not exempt. There just need to be a reason. There currently isn't one. |

Whitehound
1057
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Posted - 2013.02.28 22:32:00 -
[159] - Quote
Natsett Amuinn wrote:There just need to be a reason. There was no reason necessary for you before when war-decs only cost 2m ISKs. Now at 50m ISK do you need a reason?! I will give you a reason: because one can. Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |

Aren Madigan
EVE University Ivy League
144
|
Posted - 2013.02.28 22:39:00 -
[160] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Aren Madigan wrote:Whitehound wrote: Oh, I am listening, but I am also waiting for the truth to sink into your head.
Obviously not because you keep insisting that I want to be able to wardec anyone freely when I at no point suggested that. Am I? Or am I telling you that you are wrong in your belief of a fair war-dec? Tell me, when was EVE ever about fairness? At best does one get a fair chance on something. However, there has never been a guarantee on fair fights, fair costs, fair losses, or on anything else. Please, if you think I am wrong then show me where.
If you stop looking at fairness to some degree, it throws out any argument out the window. You could literally argue almost anything if you don't take that into consideration. You throw out all arguments for balancing. You throw out all arguments for even giving safety as that's based on fairness to a certain extent. Fairness isn't about everything always being good and dandy. Its about being reasonable. Nothing I suggested affects the safety of those who want to wardec avoid. They want to leave, let them, but for wardecs to work to their full intended extent, there needs to be both a reason NOT to leave, and also not to punish the aggressors just because someone chickens out. It isn't a win when someone "surrenders", causing you 50 million in wardec ISK damage to their, whatever the cost to form a corp is that I know is under that. And yes, I can be sure that they intend more with them than what is currently in place, just a read on them in the CSM minutes says that. |
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Whitehound
1057
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Posted - 2013.02.28 22:44:00 -
[161] - Quote
Aren Madigan wrote:If you stop looking at fairness to some degree, it throws out any argument out the window. Wrong. The more likely answer is that there have to be other reasons, only fairness is not one of them. Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |

Aren Madigan
EVE University Ivy League
144
|
Posted - 2013.02.28 22:49:00 -
[162] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Aren Madigan wrote:If you stop looking at fairness to some degree, it throws out any argument out the window. Wrong. The more likely answer is that there have to be other reasons, only fairness is not one of them.
When you're talking about balance for example, fairness is pretty much the only reason for it. Balance happens because its unfair to pilots of other ships, or other classes if you go in reference to other games. Anyone could fly the unbalanced ships, but it forces you into a play style, which violates a sense of fairness. You can't ignore it when making a game if you want it to be any good. Otherwise you could use the excuse that "oh, its just superior technology." which would be the real world explanation for such a thing. |

Lin Suizei
105
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Posted - 2013.02.28 23:01:00 -
[163] - Quote
Natsett Amuinn wrote:Buddy, the only person here who needs to "HTFU" is the guy insisting that the NPC corps are there for you to avoid a wardec, YOU.
I lose something if I drop corp, pretty much everyone not in high sec does.
You on the other hand are a member of a one man corp, in a one corp alliance.
You're in no position to tell other to HTFU.
How about you learn to ******* play.
Don't let it get to you man. He's found a broken game mechanic (highsec) and exploits it to enrich himself, as is the way of New Eden - from cloaky/stabbed faction war to convo spam gatecamps to gsc smartbomb shield. In a game of "he who abuses broken mechanics first and hardest wins", that just makes him a good player.
Well played, Whitehound - thanks for pointing out yet another reason for supporting James 315 for CSM. Xeros S*** > are you really suprised? im not here to pvp so why the fuc not Xeros S**** > oh go cry somewhere else, im not in fw for the ****** pvp
Welcome to faction war. |

Whitehound
1058
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Posted - 2013.02.28 23:02:00 -
[164] - Quote
Aren Madigan wrote:When you're talking about balance for example, fairness is pretty much the only reason for it. Balance happens because its unfair to pilots of other ships, or other classes if you go in reference to other games. Anyone could fly the unbalanced ships, but it forces you into a play style, which violates a sense of fairness. You can't ignore it when making a game if you want it to be any good. Otherwise you could use the excuse that "oh, its just superior technology." which would be the real world explanation for such a thing. No. Ship balance is not about fairness, because we already have all different skill sets and we can fly different ships.
Ship balance is about the number of ships used in the game and the exact ruling by CCP when they consider a ship as imbalanced is entirely their decision.
How do you even get the idea that there is fairness involved in this? It is about CCP running a business and they are trying to keep it as rich in variety as possible so we can play with it as much and as long as possible without getting bored and thus keep paying them for it and in the end put food on their tables. Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |

Whitehound
1058
|
Posted - 2013.02.28 23:04:00 -
[165] - Quote
Lin Suizei wrote:Don't let it get to you man. He's found a broken game mechanic (highsec) and exploits it to enrich himself, as is the way of New Eden - from cloaky/stabbed faction war to convo spam gatecamps to gsc smartbomb shield. In a game of "he who abuses broken mechanics first and hardest wins", that just makes him a good player.
Well played, Whitehound - thanks for pointing out yet another reason for supporting James 315 for CSM. In case you have not read it, James 315 uses it himself. Check his corp history. You will love supporting him!  Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |

Aren Madigan
EVE University Ivy League
144
|
Posted - 2013.02.28 23:06:00 -
[166] - Quote
Whitehound wrote: No. Ship balance is not about fairness, because we already have all different skill sets and we can fly different ships.
Ship balance is about the number of ships used in the game and the exact ruling by CCP when they consider a ship as imbalanced is entirely their decision.
How do you even get the idea that there is fairness involved in this? It is about CCP running a business and they are trying to keep it as rich in variety as possible so we can play with it as much and as long as possible without getting bored and thus keep paying them for it and in the end put food on their tables.
Better question is where did you get the idea that its about how many of a ship is being used and not about why the ship is being used so much? |

Whitehound
1058
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Posted - 2013.02.28 23:12:00 -
[167] - Quote
Aren Madigan wrote:Better question is where did you get the idea that its about how many of a ship is being used and not about why the ship is being used so much? Firstly, because CCP has always made it about the numbers and secondly, because the ships have different roles.
Say, do you expect a fight between a logistic cruiser and a combat/attack cruiser to be fair? Is a fight between an assault frigate and an interceptor fair? ... Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |

Lin Suizei
105
|
Posted - 2013.02.28 23:14:00 -
[168] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Lin Suizei wrote:Don't let it get to you man. He's found a broken game mechanic (highsec) and exploits it to enrich himself, as is the way of New Eden - from cloaky/stabbed faction war to convo spam gatecamps to gsc smartbomb shield. In a game of "he who abuses broken mechanics first and hardest wins", that just makes him a good player.
Well played, Whitehound - thanks for pointing out yet another reason for supporting James 315 for CSM. In case you have not read it, James 315 uses it himself. Check his corp history. You will love supporting him! 
Have you ever considered that this is, perhaps, for comedic value, and to point out the irony of an utterly broken and pointless mechanic? Xeros S*** > are you really suprised? im not here to pvp so why the fuc not Xeros S**** > oh go cry somewhere else, im not in fw for the ****** pvp
Welcome to faction war. |

RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2916
|
Posted - 2013.02.28 23:21:00 -
[169] - Quote
Skeln Thargensen wrote:RubyPorto wrote:With the new Wardec Pricing model, CCP has explicitly stated that wardecs are about buying targets. explicit or implicit? but of an odd use of language there. it's still the corp that you're paying to declare war upon, not the players. just because you pay extra because it's a larger corp with more members doesn't mean those members are going to stick around or that you have any rights on them, which you don't.
Explicit. "The increased cost reflects the easier access to multiple targets" http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=42269
I didn't say you did. I am saying you should. Or at least that there should be some significant downside to having everyone drop corp and reform into a new, not-wardecced corp with the exact same name and ticker. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |

Aren Madigan
EVE University Ivy League
144
|
Posted - 2013.02.28 23:23:00 -
[170] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Aren Madigan wrote:Better question is where did you get the idea that its about how many of a ship is being used and not about why the ship is being used so much? Firstly, because CCP has always made it about the numbers and secondly, because the ships have different roles. Say, do you expect a fight between a logistic cruiser and a combat/attack cruiser to be fair? Is a fight between an assault frigate and an interceptor fair? ...
You're looking at it from the wrong standpoint. There's two standpoints to look at it from... first off, if one logistics ship is by far completely above what all other logistics ships are capable of, performing so well that people call you an idiot if you use any other ship. Then there's the other standpoint. Which is a little tougher to explain. I suppose best I can think of if say spider tanking was so amazing that there was literally no other viable tactic from group fights. That's what balance is, it goes beyond being merely because a lot of people fly a certain ship. I mean, hell, in a well balanced game people could be flying it just because it looks the best appearence-wise. I highly doubt they would nerf a ship just because of that. |
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Whitehound
1058
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Posted - 2013.02.28 23:34:00 -
[171] - Quote
Lin Suizei wrote:Have you ever considered that this is, perhaps, for comedic value, and to point out the irony of an utterly broken and pointless mechanic? Not really. He preaches ganking, too, but does he take part in it? No. So why there? Seems he is rather a practical man, who has found a way to let others do his bidding and also knows his way around mechanics. Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |

Whitehound
1058
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Posted - 2013.02.28 23:38:00 -
[172] - Quote
Aren Madigan wrote:You're looking at it from the wrong standpoint. No. You have the wrong standpoint. I only used it to show you that there is no fairness in balancing. QED. Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |

Aren Madigan
EVE University Ivy League
144
|
Posted - 2013.02.28 23:59:00 -
[173] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Aren Madigan wrote:You're looking at it from the wrong standpoint. No. You have the wrong standpoint. I only used it to show you that there is no fairness in balancing. QED. And you'd be full of it because I'm looking at it from the standpoint actually used. Popularity of a ship has nothing to do with why balance changes are made. Its the reason why the ship is popular that gets looked at. |

LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
489
|
Posted - 2013.02.28 23:59:00 -
[174] - Quote
back to the OP.
CCP is going to make sure that players are not driven or forced out of the game.
There WILL ALWAYS be a way for carebears to avoid war, to make ISK, to buy PLEX, to fund their accounts. Without such a mechanism, players that can't afford to pay a subscription will be unable to play. CCP will not allow that.
Cry all you want about how easy it is to avoid war decs, but CCP is never going to change that. PURELY a "working as intended" situation.
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Natsett Amuinn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1880
|
Posted - 2013.03.01 00:06:00 -
[175] - Quote
No they won't change that.
They'll make it more worthwhile to be in a player corp. |

LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
490
|
Posted - 2013.03.01 00:19:00 -
[176] - Quote
Natsett Amuinn wrote:No they won't change that.
They'll make it more worthwhile to be in a player corp.
There is no way to make "unwilling to undock because you are in a player corp that is war dec'ed" more appealing than "can pretty much do whatever I want, because I avoided war by dropping to NPC corp and ganking me is a huge money loser to griefers".
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Whitehound
1058
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Posted - 2013.03.01 00:20:00 -
[177] - Quote
Aren Madigan wrote:And you'd be full of it because I'm looking at it from the standpoint actually used. Popularity of a ship has nothing to do with why balance changes are made. Its the reason why the ship is popular that gets looked at. When popularity is the reason for a change, then it is the reason for the imbalance, too.
Take the Hulk and the Hurricane for example. The Hulk was the most popular mining ship. CCP then actually left the Hulk mostly unchanged and only adjusted the other mining ships. Now with the Hurricane is it rather the opposite and it gets nerfed pretty good. The only constant here is the popularity.
Going back to your belief of fairness, what about the following scenario:
An assault frigate attacks an interceptor and fires shots at it. The interceptor then flies away, because it can. Should the interceptor pilot now pay the ammo of the assault frigate pilot? Afterall, you want the fight to be fair and the interceptor pilot bailed out while the assault frigate pilot has lost ammo in this. Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |

Aren Madigan
EVE University Ivy League
144
|
Posted - 2013.03.01 00:51:00 -
[178] - Quote
Ignoring the whole reason the Hulk and Hurricanes were popular in the first place. I'm not going to argue with someone using non sequitur. The Hulk was popular because it was by far the best mining ship, hands down, no question, it was the best. The others were brought up to par because they felt the Hulk was where they wanted mining ships in terms of overall ability. Hurricane was fairly similar. These are things CCP has in fact openly stated. And in fact has openly stated that there are balance issues in other ship types and tiers that they intend to address. In no part of their statements do they say "this ship is too popular, so we gotta change it." I mean, dear god.. REALLY? That's really how you think balancing works? I've never seen a more out of touch statement. Also your example has nothing to do with my belief of fairness, so doesn't require answering. I already stated my viewpoint about differing roles and how they apply to fairness. |

Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
3187
|
Posted - 2013.03.01 00:57:00 -
[179] - Quote
Why does OP think the term 'cold and harsh universe' should only apply to the industrial corps he war decs and not himself?
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |

Lin Suizei
107
|
Posted - 2013.03.01 01:09:00 -
[180] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:An assault frigate attacks an interceptor and fires shots at it. The interceptor then flies away, because it can. Should the interceptor pilot now pay the ammo of the assault frigate pilot? Afterall, you want the fight to be fair and the interceptor pilot bailed out while the assault frigate pilot has lost ammo in this.
Let's modify that scenario a little, to bring it more in line with reality - the assault frigate pilot has identified a mission bot in Caldari highsec, and would like to kill it to take it's faction mods. After sending in a report via the "report bot" function, the assault frigate pilot pays a CONCORD fee of 50M to declare war on the mission botting corporation, and waits the required 24 hours.
The mission bot's botting software identifies the wardec, and notifies the bot owner, who logs on and immediately drops and reforms corp, evading the war completely.
Should the mission bot owner be required to compensate the assault frigate pilot? No, the mission bot owner identified a clearly broken mechanic and exploited it to enrich himself. In this case, the assault frigate pilot made a poor choice attempting to declare war, and should have upshipped to a neut ship and attempted to suicide neut the CNR's active tank while it was under attack by NPC's, with a neutral bumping ship to prevent it from aligning out, a logistics ship to keep the bumping ship alive and a podder to kill the pod.
Should the war mechanic be looked at, and revamped? Yes. Xeros S*** > are you really suprised? im not here to pvp so why the fuc not Xeros S**** > oh go cry somewhere else, im not in fw for the ****** pvp
Welcome to faction war. |
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