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Poetic Stanziel
Arrakis Technology
93
|
Posted - 2011.10.14 09:36:00 -
[31] - Quote
Darian Reymont wrote:Our desire for wardec improvement does not come from wanting to be immune to PvP, it comes from war in Empire space being pointless and terrible, as well as our being consistently wardecced for the majority of a year by people who have no intention of fighting. These non-fighting enemies do not force you to remain docked. You're own rules force you to do that. Don't blame the war mechanics on your own WSOP. Your rules are your own worst enemy. And then you use those rules you inflict upon yourselves as a reason for CCP to develop rules to satisfy your needs.
The War-Free University-á- http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.com/2011/10/war-free-university.html |

Karim alRashid
Aliastra Gallente Federation
50
|
Posted - 2011.10.14 09:38:00 -
[32] - Quote
Thorn Galen wrote:The Op has made it clear the the GM's say it is not an exploit, or am I wrong ?
What GMs say is that they do not consider this an exploit as far as their work is concerned, all they say is that they will not punish the exploit.
It's still an exploit, a use of game mechanics in unintended ways in order to gain an advantage and this is the truth.
And truth is not decided by majority vote.
|

Darian Reymont
EVE University Ivy League
12
|
Posted - 2011.10.14 09:52:00 -
[33] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:Darian Reymont wrote:Our desire for wardec improvement does not come from wanting to be immune to PvP, it comes from war in Empire space being pointless and terrible, as well as our being consistently wardecced for the majority of a year by people who have no intention of fighting. These non-fighting enemies do not force you to remain docked. Your own rules force you to do that. Don't blame the war mechanics because of your own WSOP. Your rules are your own worst enemy. And then you use those rules that you inflict upon yourselves as a reason for CCP to develop more rules to satisfy your needs.
But the WSOP has nothing to do with why we don't like the current wardec mechanics. We can scrap the WSOP whenever we like so it's hardly "inflicted" upon us, we choose to operate it. We can't do anything about the mechanics besides ask CCP to look at them, which is all we've been doing for years now. Director of Human Resources EVE University |

Poetic Stanziel
Arrakis Technology
93
|
Posted - 2011.10.14 09:56:00 -
[34] - Quote
Darian Reymont wrote:But the WSOP has nothing to do with why we don't like the current wardec mechanics. We can scrap the WSOP whenever we like so it's hardly "inflicted" upon us, we choose to operate it. We can't do anything about the mechanics besides ask CCP to look at them, which is all we've been doing for years now. The WSOP has everything to do with all of the whining about faildecs coming from the University. Why would you even care about faildecs if it wasn't for your overly restrictive WSOP? If a wartarget wasn't attacking you, why would you even care? That would be great and fantastic, no? But it's not, because of your WSOP.
The War-Free University-á- http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.com/2011/10/war-free-university.html |

Darian Reymont
EVE University Ivy League
12
|
Posted - 2011.10.14 10:08:00 -
[35] - Quote
If somebody decs us and doesn't turn up at all then we don't use the WSOP. It's more often than not the kind of war where they will turn up just enough to be a threat to solo students still learning the ropes, but with no intention of actually fighting capable pilots. The whole exercise is pointless, as there are no win conditions or consequences for either side. It's a sort of harassment, which in a game like EVE would be fine, if there were mechanics in place for us to harass them back.
I'm not sure what your point is here, Poetic. You're saying we dislike wardec mechanics because of our own WSOP, which we have total control over? That we've pressurised CCP into changing their policies because that was... easier than changing our own, which we have subsequently changed anyway? Director of Human Resources EVE University |

Poetic Stanziel
Arrakis Technology
93
|
Posted - 2011.10.14 10:12:00 -
[36] - Quote
Darian Reymont wrote:If somebody decs us and doesn't turn up at all then we don't use the WSOP. What a load of complete BS. Have you taken over as Propaganda Minister from that tool Irdalth? (You are better at it then he is. You should consider switching Director roles with him.)
You use the WSOP for every wardec (minus this last month). If a wardec turns into a faildec, you simply use a slightly less restrictive version of the WSOP known as the R-WSOP. But it's still pretty restrictive.
The War-Free University-á- http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.com/2011/10/war-free-university.html |

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
147
|
Posted - 2011.10.14 10:13:00 -
[37] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:The WSOP has everything to do with all of the whining about faildecs coming from the University. Why would you even care about faildecs if it wasn't for your overly restrictive WSOP?
Why are you complaining about something that has no impact on your gameplay, unless you're one of the corps who wardecs the Uni simply to grief them by having them hoist themselves on their own WSOP petard?
If you can't afford the half-billion ISK a week to maintain a warded on the Uni, find someone else to warded. Is it really that hard? |

Poetic Stanziel
Arrakis Technology
93
|
Posted - 2011.10.14 10:18:00 -
[38] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Poetic Stanziel wrote:The WSOP has everything to do with all of the whining about faildecs coming from the University. Why would you even care about faildecs if it wasn't for your overly restrictive WSOP? Why are you complaining about something that has no impact on your gameplay, unless you're one of the corps who wardecs the Uni simply to grief them by having them hoist themselves on their own WSOP petard? If you can't afford the half-billion ISK a week to maintain a warded on the Uni, find someone else to warded. Is it really that hard? First of all, the Uni griefs itself. No one is forcing them to use their WSOP. They do that to themselves. I cannot force them to use their own WSOP, so how do you figure that's me griefing them?
Secondly, thanks to EVE University's lobbying of CCP, wardeccing any corporation is a complete waste of time now. All exploits to avoid wardecs are now legal.
The War-Free University-á- http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.com/2011/10/war-free-university.html |

Vachir Khan
TriSeq Defence Group
15
|
Posted - 2011.10.14 10:22:00 -
[39] - Quote
This is not about EVE-Uni, it's a precedent and pandora's box.
Per usual, it'll need a lot of abuse of this mechanic (previously called exploit) and a lot of whining before this gets turned around by CCP. So all this posting and shouting is a GOOD thing. The more we shout about it, the more people reply to it how it's "not at all a bad thing" the more coverage it gets and the more people start to use it.
And once corporations start mass using this mechanic (previously called exploit) then finally CCP, the lumbering hulk that it is, will wake up, give it 2 seconds of attention and nerf it into the ground. So please, do keep posting, shouting and replying in threads like this and please, PLEASE, every corp should start using this mechanic (previously called exploit). That's the fastest way to get it taken care of.
And yes, the GM who allowed EVE-Uni to do this in the first place should be fired. Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude. |

Darian Reymont
EVE University Ivy League
12
|
Posted - 2011.10.14 10:23:00 -
[40] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:Darian Reymont wrote:If somebody decs us and doesn't turn up at all then we don't use the WSOP. What a load of complete BS. Have you taken over as Propaganda Minister from that tool Irdalth? (You are better at it then he is. You should consider switching Director roles with him.) You use the WSOP for every wardec (minus this last month). If a wardec turns into a faildec, you simply use a slightly less restrictive version of the WSOP known as the R-WSOP. But it's still pretty restrictive. No, we use the RSOP when there is a threat but it isn't deemed very serious, which is the majority of the faildecs we get these days. The full WSOP is only used during wardecs where there is a very real threat. If there is no threat at all, then we don't use any of the WSOP options and remain at a non-war but high alert status. This happens vary rarely, but it does happen (the last time was the recent war with Personal Training that started a week or two before the NSOP event and is currently ongoing). Furthermore, we're in the process of making more changes to the way we deploy the WSOP following the success of the recent NSOP event that should see even less use of the WSOP in future.
Also please stop insulting Irdalth, it's making you look even worse than you normally do. Irdalth is one of the nicest people in this game, not to mention one of the hardest working, and anybody who has spoken to him will tell you the same. That you somehow managed to fall out with him really speaks volumes. Director of Human Resources EVE University |

Vachir Khan
TriSeq Defence Group
15
|
Posted - 2011.10.14 10:28:00 -
[41] - Quote
Darian Reymont wrote:Also please stop insulting Irdalth, it's making you look even worse than you normally do. Irdalth is one of the nicest people in this game, not to mention one of the hardest working, and anybody who has spoken to him will tell you the same. That you somehow managed to fall out with him really speaks volumes.
I have no vested interest in that part of the conversation nor am I taking sides in it but "friendly and helpful" doesn't somehow make one capable of being a good spokesperson. Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude. |

Poetic Stanziel
Arrakis Technology
93
|
Posted - 2011.10.14 10:29:00 -
[42] - Quote
Darian Reymont wrote:Furthermore, we're in the process of making more changes to the way we deploy the WSOP ... that should see even less use of the WSOP in future. That's hilarious. You don't need to change the way you deploy the WSOP so that there's less need for the WSOP. CCP did that for you. That's why you have 19 corporations decshielding you. And I'm sure there's a contingency to alliance hop if necessary. Since the University will never be involved in a non-consensual war again, there's no need to tinker with the WSOP. That's a thing of the past. For the University Museum. The War-Free University-á- http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.com/2011/10/war-free-university.html |

Orion GUardian
48
|
Posted - 2011.10.14 10:29:00 -
[43] - Quote
You Sir/Madam got a serious problem withy our stalker mentality.
If your arguments weren't so COMPLETELY "Eve-Uni is a villain" all the time perhaps some people would listen more to arguments that might even be valid.
If you made a thread about how the change in Rules changes the Highsec landscape due to wardec changes etc it would be a COMPLETELY different matter than "Eve-Uni this, Eve-Uni that blablabla"
You Sir/Madam really need to rethink your priorities because this thread is NOT about the change of GM-policies but because of your huge Ego trying to bash Eve-Uni PLEASE, just play the game its big enough to justignore EU |

The Apostle
The Black Priests
411
|
Posted - 2011.10.14 10:33:00 -
[44] - Quote
@Poetic
Dude. Your tweet bio is still showing "A student at EVE University, plying my trades in New Eden and learning as much as I can before I move on to other pastures."
Please make the appropriate corrections forthwith.
for Eve-Uni CEO
PS: Just sayin'  Take an aspirin. If pain persists consult your local priest. WTB: An Austrian kangaroo!
|

Poetic Stanziel
Arrakis Technology
93
|
Posted - 2011.10.14 10:37:00 -
[45] - Quote
The Apostle wrote:@Poetic
Dude. Your tweet bio is still showing "A student at EVE University, plying my trades in New Eden and learning as much as I can before I move on to other pastures." I shall. Made changes elsewhere. Forgot the Twitters.
The War-Free University-á- http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.com/2011/10/war-free-university.html |

The Apostle
The Black Priests
411
|
Posted - 2011.10.14 10:41:00 -
[46] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:The Apostle wrote:@Poetic
Dude. Your tweet bio is still showing "A student at EVE University, plying my trades in New Eden and learning as much as I can before I move on to other pastures." I shall. Made changes elsewhere. Forgot the Twitters. For the record, I was following Helmar and saw you "lobbying".... Followed the link.
Word of professional advice if I would be so bold: CEO's don't usually get involved nor seek to reverse staff decisions without making the staff look rather poorly. Take an aspirin. If pain persists consult your local priest. WTB: An Austrian kangaroo!
|

Poetic Stanziel
Arrakis Technology
93
|
Posted - 2011.10.14 10:45:00 -
[47] - Quote
The Apostle wrote:For the record, I was following Helmar and saw you "lobbying".... Followed the link.
Word of professional advice if I would be so bold: CEO's don't usually get involved nor seek to reverse staff decisions without making the staff look rather poorly. I was lobbying Hilmar about what? The last time I tweeted to Hilmar was when he mentioned buffing up the CONCORD AI. I thought he was making joke. Turned out he was being serious.
The War-Free University-á- http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.com/2011/10/war-free-university.html |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
493
|
Posted - 2011.10.14 10:46:00 -
[48] - Quote
Vachir Khan wrote:Per usual, it'll need a lot of abuse of this mechanic (previously called exploit) and a lot of whining before this gets turned around by CCP. So all this posting and shouting is a GOOD thing. The more we shout about it, the more people reply to it how it's "not at all a bad thing" the more coverage it gets and the more people start to use it.
And once corporations start mass using this mechanic (previously called exploit) then finally CCP, the lumbering hulk that it is, will wake up, give it 2 seconds of attention and nerf it into the ground. So please, do keep posting, shouting and replying in threads like this and please, PLEASE, every corp should start using this mechanic (previously called exploit). That's the fastest way to get it taken care of. Give me ~35 days, and I'll have DecShield Alliance up and running from scratch.
I'm thinking of pricing it at 2M ISK to shed your wardec (obviously with a bulk discount if you get decced more than once in a month, because I'm a nice person) to cover the upkeep fee.
What do you think? Does it sound like a reasonable plan? GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |

Darian Reymont
EVE University Ivy League
12
|
Posted - 2011.10.14 11:01:00 -
[49] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:Darian Reymont wrote:Furthermore, we're in the process of making more changes to the way we deploy the WSOP ... that should see even less use of the WSOP in future. That's hilarious. You don't need to change the way you deploy the WSOP so that there's less need for the WSOP. CCP did that for you. That's why you have 19 corporations decshielding you. And I'm sure there's a contingency to alliance hop if necessary. Since the University will never be involved in a non-consensual war again, there's no need to tinker with the WSOP. That's a thing of the past. For the University Museum. You're correct of course, I worded things poorly. I should have said we were in the process of making changes, prior to finding out about CCP's policy changes. At this stage they are redundant, I suppose, though it does serve to highlight that we were not aware of these changes prior to the announcement.
For the record, E-UNI will not be alliance hopping. If somebody wants to pay up and dec us then we'll fight them, same as always. Hopefully anybody willing to stump up that much cash actually intends to fight, anyway. If not, we can try out those new WSOP policies.
Anyway the conversation is starting to loop, so I'm going to bow out at this stage. I'll reiterate some key points from E-UNI's perspective:
- We did not lobby CCP for these policy changes, nor were we aware of them before the announcement.
- We do not want any special treatment from CCP.
- We do not want to be immune to PvP (or even wardecs).
- We are (mostly) not evil!
Fly safe, New Eden. Director of Human Resources EVE University |

Orion GUardian
48
|
Posted - 2011.10.14 11:14:00 -
[50] - Quote
On a side note, could someone pelase elaborate what this Mechanic entails?
As far as I understodd some corporation creates a few ONe-Man corps and an Alliance with them to increase Wardec costs and then can even leave the alliance to get rid of the Wardec? Anything else? |

Vastek Non
State War Academy Caldari State
13
|
Posted - 2011.10.14 11:45:00 -
[51] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:There are two CSMs in this game. The one that the players voted for. And EVE University. The recent wardec policy changes are proof of EVE University, via Kelduum Revaan, being the other de facto CSM. CCP caters to their needs, without any oversight by the players. They've become a carebear haven. They are now effectively impossible to wardec. CCP gave them, in essence, a PvP flag. They can turn it on or off at their whim. Their decshield is 19 corporations strong, and they've been allowed to use an exploit to avoid the CONCORD costs of that decshield. The only single danger left for them is the suicide gank. Any other method of PvP against them is fruitless.
Griefer tears, best tears 
Edit: Actually a bitter ex I see. Sick and sad. |

Kelduum Revaan
EVE University Ivy League
705
|
Posted - 2011.10.14 11:48:00 -
[52] - Quote
Small note: Although I haven't actually mention it to any of the members, I plan to have semi-regular wardecs with RvB (due to the really good fights they brought this last month), and the members of the "DecShield" corporations are free to log in and randomly jump out at any E-UNI member.
Orion GUardian wrote:On a side note, could someone pelase elaborate what this Mechanic entails? Go have a look at the comments in the other thread about the DecShield thing - you should be able to peace together the way that works from the comments, and maybe check eve-search.com for "Immune Empire" for a practical example of the old "join alliance" thing.
And now my favourite bit:Poetic Stanziel wrote:Thorn Galen wrote:The Op has made it clear the the GM's say it is not an exploit, or am I wrong ? They are avoiding 72 billion ISK per month in CONCORD fees running their 19 corp decshield. That "exploit" is not commonly known... The exploit was given to them by CCP... Not commonly known, apart from the fact you yourself quoted someone explaining it earlier today...
Poetic, please understand, we can never be together, we're too different. I know you still love me, but please, start taking the medication again... for me? Kelduum Revaan CEO, EVE University |

Jokerface666
Ever Flow Northern Coalition.
49
|
Posted - 2011.10.14 12:22:00 -
[53] - Quote
So basically you are flaming that it costs now a lot of money to be able to shoot noobs.... instead of going out and engaging somebody of your size....
sir you just lost all possible respect as a eve player and a human beeing... you are officcially worthless now.
To EVE-UNI: awesome job guys, i wish i had known about you when i started eve. ------------------------------w00t w00t rapetrain------------------------------ |

Anela Cistine
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
31
|
Posted - 2011.10.14 13:03:00 -
[54] - Quote
non judgement wrote: On a side note: Goons and Test are big teaching corps? For some reason I never thought of Test and Goons as teaching new players. Maybe they do, but I think +¡t's a very small part of what they really do and not their main focus.
Training new players is one of the most important things we do. We have a very small recruitment pool: we don't recruit eve players to join goons, we recruit goons to come play eve. That means that every single new goon is tremendously valuable to us. Because we have just a trickle of new players most of the time, our training isn't as organized as Eve Uni, obviously. During our annual newbie drive we'll run a few actual classes, but most of the time it is more informal than that.
To some extent we teach them Eve the same way throwing a child into deep water teaches her to swim. At times people have accused us of trying to generate lag by bringing "alts" in T1 frigates and T1 cruisers to a fleet fight, but those aren't alts, those are newbies. We want our newbies on the battlefield in their in their little rifters the first day they play Eve Online. Yes they die if anyone looks in their direction and it is terrible for our k/d ratio, but we keep giving them piles of free pre-fit rifters until they learn how to fly small tacklers like a pr0, or they finish training for something more durable. Between fights we have our wiki, videos, in-game help channel, mentors, squads, and the Boot Camp subforum to explain what is going on. We spend about 500 million a month on free stuff for newbies at the alliance level, plus squads have their own programs like giving newbies 103 free skill books, free cruisers, free implants, and other things.
I've seen public recruiting PVP corps that won't even look at anyone with less than 10 or 15 million skill points. That is insane. How many of those skill points are wasted on mining, mission running, production, or other skills that are completely worthless for a PVP character? Not to mention all the bad habits they will pick up after months of running level 2 missions in "safe" space as they wait for the skills to train. You can't expect someone to spend 9,999,999 skillpoints as a care bear and suddenly morph into a grizzly when they hit 10,000,000.
Plus, newbies are awesome to be around. The better you get at Eve the more insufferable you become, and that's a fact. Little bees, best bees. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vfv1QtZDirY
Our buddies in TEST explained it pretty well here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96b7Jk5xCTQ |

non judgement
Without Fear Flying Burning Ships Alliance
52
|
Posted - 2011.10.14 13:33:00 -
[55] - Quote
You might be right and that TEST video seems pretty good. But still the fact is that you guys spending 500m is nothing. Being able to field titans and sc means 500m is just a drop in the ocean. My point is that your main focus isn't just training people. If it was, I'd have to say that you guys sure have a lot of nullsec space for an alliance that just trains new players.
 |

Karim alRashid
Aliastra Gallente Federation
50
|
Posted - 2011.10.14 13:35:00 -
[56] - Quote
Jokerface666 wrote:So basically you are flaming that it costs now a lot of money to be able to shoot noobs.... instead of going out and engaging somebody of your size....
Actually, the discussed abuse of game mechanics does not differentiate between new and old players, on either side of the war declaration.
Also, EVE University are a pretty big size corp, 1300+ members, I wouldn't be surprised if it's the third or fourth largest in EVE. Plus, it has been stated a few times that there are about 300 or so members older than an year in EVE University.
All this begs the question: Do you even know what you are talking about or just came here to express you e-hatred against somebody? |

Rico Minali
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
70
|
Posted - 2011.10.14 13:38:00 -
[57] - Quote
Damn them for using a game mechanic cleverly to achieve a result... |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
494
|
Posted - 2011.10.14 13:39:00 -
[58] - Quote
Rico Minali wrote:Damn them for using a game mechanic cleverly to achieve a result... Seeing as how up until very recently, that very use was deemed an exploit, yes. GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |

Karim alRashid
Aliastra Gallente Federation
51
|
Posted - 2011.10.14 13:48:00 -
[59] - Quote
Rico Minali wrote:Damn them for using a game mechanic cleverly to achieve a result...
Your sarcasm aside, the point is not using a game mechanic cleverly, but using it in unintended ways.
cf. POS bowling, evading CONCORD or changing corps while in space to surprise war targets - all pretty well within game mechanics.
Of course, you may argue that the possibility to create a decshield was intended way back when CCP introduced increasing costs for multitude of wardecs and I really can't prove to you that it was unintended, as well as you can't prove to me that it was intended.
So, it's matter of opinion whether this is how it should be or just an oversight from CCP devs.
And people just voice their opinion, like they are supposed to do on this facility called "forums".
|

Poetic Stanzitroll
BLOG University
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.14 13:50:00 -
[60] - Quote
Kelduum Revaan wrote: Poetic, please understand, we can never be together, we're too different. I know you still love me, but please, start taking the medication again... for me?
My heart is broken. I have gathered the shattered pieces and placed them in a bag. You have broken my heart. 
-Check out my blog, it's the best! |
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