EVE Search - Playboy Enterprises, Heff and the the Economic Warmongers

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Lysithea	Posted - 2003.07.25 00:44:00 - [31] Edited by: Lysithea on 25/07/2003 00:45:20 Once and for all, you people who have a problem with blueprint copies can read this developer chat and shut the hell up. This is from the attached link: http://www.evegate.net/exclusives/dev016.php <Wolfgang> Viking I have some questions regarding blueprints and manufacturing. Is there a limit on the number of copies you can make on a blueprint? If so, what plans are in place to take care of the rampant over copying that is occurring? Second question. Has manufacturing been changed? I notice today when trying to build, that the mineral needs have gone up, or at least that the rounding has gone away. <Hellmar> there was a bug in manufacturing, the bonus was 0 based were as it should have been 1 based. This lead to the leak in the economy were players were manufacturing items with less than their recycle value, which is not good in a closed system and exploitable. Those that had improved their blueprints/skills will still be better but they can't go under the recycle value, just match it. There will be no limit to copying; as copies can't be researched they can't compete with a well-researched blueprint. So they quickly loose value as soon as the novelty of the item wears off and you are competing with researched blueprints. We might also tune the time it takes to copy. Read it for yourself. If you have a problem, go file a petition or quit the game. God I hate crybabies.
Lysithea Playboy Enterprises	Posted - 2003.07.25 00:44:00 - [32] Edited by: Lysithea on 25/07/2003 00:45:20 Once and for all, you people who have a problem with blueprint copies can read this developer chat and shut the hell up. This is from the attached link: http://www.evegate.net/exclusives/dev016.php <Wolfgang> Viking I have some questions regarding blueprints and manufacturing. Is there a limit on the number of copies you can make on a blueprint? If so, what plans are in place to take care of the rampant over copying that is occurring? Second question. Has manufacturing been changed? I notice today when trying to build, that the mineral needs have gone up, or at least that the rounding has gone away. <Hellmar> there was a bug in manufacturing, the bonus was 0 based were as it should have been 1 based. This lead to the leak in the economy were players were manufacturing items with less than their recycle value, which is not good in a closed system and exploitable. Those that had improved their blueprints/skills will still be better but they can't go under the recycle value, just match it. There will be no limit to copying; as copies can't be researched they can't compete with a well-researched blueprint. So they quickly loose value as soon as the novelty of the item wears off and you are competing with researched blueprints. We might also tune the time it takes to copy. Read it for yourself. If you have a problem, go file a petition or quit the game. God I hate crybabies.
Rhiannan	Posted - 2003.07.25 01:53:00 - [33] Edited by: Rhiannan on 25/07/2003 01:53:57 FACT: The number of blueprints that have actually been sold by Playboy Enterprises, at the time of this post can be counted on one hand FACT: There are over 30 corporations that sell more blueprint copies at a LOWER price than Playboy Enterprises. FACT: We have not "scammed" anybody, be it a freelancer player, or a corporation. The rest is just fiction...
Rhiannan Amarr Doomheim	Posted - 2003.07.25 01:53:00 - [34] Edited by: Rhiannan on 25/07/2003 01:53:57 FACT: The number of blueprints that have actually been sold by Playboy Enterprises, at the time of this post can be counted on one hand FACT: There are over 30 corporations that sell more blueprint copies at a LOWER price than Playboy Enterprises. FACT: We have not "scammed" anybody, be it a freelancer player, or a corporation. The rest is just fiction...
Sweet Fresca	Posted - 2003.07.25 02:47:00 - [35] This could certainly turn into a debate about how CCP should prevent corps like Playboy from exploiting. For one thing, that post from Hellmar I believe is incorrect. A BP can only be researched to save 5% minerals. 5%!! That is nothing. That brings the cost of a 6 mil ISK cruiser down by 300K. That is hardly economic dominance. Besides, Playboy sells researched copies. It only takes 2 short cycles to nearly reach the maximum mineral savings. It is NOT a stretch to say that Playboy has cost EVE corps more in damages than Moo, m3g4, and all the other pirate corps put together. One thing you dissenters aren't seeing - yes it would not be so bad if there was only around 10 profit margins, but only if there were plenty of customers. You know what? Customers are few and far between because they all have cheap copies. They have killed demand in the cruiser market because everyone that wants to buy cruisers just gets the BP and "rolls their own".
Sweet Fresca	Posted - 2003.07.25 02:47:00 - [36] This could certainly turn into a debate about how CCP should prevent corps like Playboy from exploiting. For one thing, that post from Hellmar I believe is incorrect. A BP can only be researched to save 5% minerals. 5%!! That is nothing. That brings the cost of a 6 mil ISK cruiser down by 300K. That is hardly economic dominance. Besides, Playboy sells researched copies. It only takes 2 short cycles to nearly reach the maximum mineral savings. It is NOT a stretch to say that Playboy has cost EVE corps more in damages than Moo, m3g4, and all the other pirate corps put together. One thing you dissenters aren't seeing - yes it would not be so bad if there was only around 10 profit margins, but only if there were plenty of customers. You know what? Customers are few and far between because they all have cheap copies. They have killed demand in the cruiser market because everyone that wants to buy cruisers just gets the BP and "rolls their own".
Ragnar	Posted - 2003.07.25 02:57:00 - [37] Edited by: Ragnar on 25/07/2003 02:57:14 Heh Heff I laughed at your "COMEDY!!" response... I will have to use that some time. :) Anyway, what Neptune and others have said here is worrisome. There is no doubt that cheap BP dumping is hurting Taggart Transdimensional in the back pocket. When our customers can buy a BP for about the same price as the ship, it takes away not just one customer, but all of their friends as well. I do not appreciate Playboy Enterprises using this clear "weakness" in the game design to hurt all industrialists. It is...troubling. - Ragnar Danneskj÷ld Taggart Transdimensional, Inc. http://www.taggarttransdimensional.com
Ragnar Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2003.07.25 02:57:00 - [38] Edited by: Ragnar on 25/07/2003 02:57:14 Heh Heff I laughed at your "COMEDY!!" response... I will have to use that some time. :) Anyway, what Neptune and others have said here is worrisome. There is no doubt that cheap BP dumping is hurting Taggart Transdimensional in the back pocket. When our customers can buy a BP for about the same price as the ship, it takes away not just one customer, but all of their friends as well. I do not appreciate Playboy Enterprises using this clear "weakness" in the game design to hurt all industrialists. It is...troubling. - Ragnar Danneskj÷ld Taggart Transdimensional, Inc. http://www.taggarttransdimensional.com
Bluto	Posted - 2003.07.25 03:05:00 - [39] Edited by: Bluto on 25/07/2003 03:15:13 Edited by: Bluto on 25/07/2003 03:06:02 Rhiannan, a Playboy member wrote: "FACT: The number of blueprints that have actually been sold by Playboy Enterprises, at the time of this post can be counted on one hand The rest is just fiction..." Fiction? Really? Maybe you better check the your own corporation's website, which Heff referred to many times in this thread: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=20333 Heff also said, "We have already worked with dozens of people who previously purchased cruiser and battleship blueprints and we are happy to provide references if trust is an issue." So who is the liar, Rhiannan or Heff and the Playboy website? Rhiannan you better let Heff do the posting for Playboy. He is a much better spindoctor than than you are.
Bluto	Posted - 2003.07.25 03:05:00 - [40] Edited by: Bluto on 25/07/2003 03:15:13 Edited by: Bluto on 25/07/2003 03:06:02 Rhiannan, a Playboy member wrote: "FACT: The number of blueprints that have actually been sold by Playboy Enterprises, at the time of this post can be counted on one hand The rest is just fiction..." Fiction? Really? Maybe you better check the your own corporation's website, which Heff referred to many times in this thread: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=20333 Heff also said, "We have already worked with dozens of people who previously purchased cruiser and battleship blueprints and we are happy to provide references if trust is an issue." So who is the liar, Rhiannan or Heff and the Playboy website? Rhiannan you better let Heff do the posting for Playboy. He is a much better spindoctor than than you are.

Lucas De'Thal	Posted - 2003.07.25 03:24:00 - [41] As a consumer, all i can say is lower ship prices are good. the rest of you manufacturers who think 10-14mil for a cruiser is a fair price you can go to hell. I know one manufacturer who's total cost to produce a thorax is 3.6mil!!! as i've said, just because you can't price gouge the rest of us for a 300% markup does not a broken system make. also, why does everybody seem to ignore the basics of SUPPLY and DEMAND. Are you telling me that if you know you aren't making a profit but you are still in the business? As more suppliers leave, then the prices will eventually go up if the demand increases. Now if you are still producing and knowing you aren't profiting form it then that's pretty much your own fault. Another thing, say I'm a small corp, you don't want me to enter the manufacturing market, what the hell am I supposed to do (don't say trading as you well know is a specialty field that will soon be nerfed anyways with the random seeding throughout the day or maybe go pirate hunt? - why don't you do that then). Mine for a month so I can buy a cruiser from you that cost 14mil! How is that fair to me??? you guys are just a bunch of whiners and crybabies as the rest of them. ______________________________________________ Hellmar > sorry for the attitude, playing a n00b character through the current state just left me a bit bitter dev chat: Mar 18, 2004 hellmar> "you lot are just so clever you have a good history for out smarting us :-S " dev chat: Feb 12, 2004
Lucas De'Thal	Posted - 2003.07.25 03:24:00 - [42] As a consumer, all i can say is lower ship prices are good. the rest of you manufacturers who think 10-14mil for a cruiser is a fair price you can go to hell. I know one manufacturer who's total cost to produce a thorax is 3.6mil!!! as i've said, just because you can't price gouge the rest of us for a 300% markup does not a broken system make. also, why does everybody seem to ignore the basics of SUPPLY and DEMAND. Are you telling me that if you know you aren't making a profit but you are still in the business? As more suppliers leave, then the prices will eventually go up if the demand increases. Now if you are still producing and knowing you aren't profiting form it then that's pretty much your own fault. Another thing, say I'm a small corp, you don't want me to enter the manufacturing market, what the hell am I supposed to do (don't say trading as you well know is a specialty field that will soon be nerfed anyways with the random seeding throughout the day or maybe go pirate hunt? - why don't you do that then). Mine for a month so I can buy a cruiser from you that cost 14mil! How is that fair to me??? you guys are just a bunch of whiners and crybabies as the rest of them. ______________________________________________ Hellmar > sorry for the attitude, playing a n00b character through the current state just left me a bit bitter dev chat: Mar 18, 2004 hellmar> "you lot are just so clever you have a good history for out smarting us :-S " dev chat: Feb 12, 2004
Doctor X	Posted - 2003.07.25 04:18:00 - [43] Edited by: Doctor X on 25/07/2003 04:28:08 Lucas, please consider the following cases: 1) Joe buys a Thorax BP original at 72m. 2) Joe uses 4.3m isk on minerals (this with current mega & zydrine prices) to produce a Thorax. 3) At 10m a piece, Joe must sell 12.5 Thoraxes before he even breaks even! Case 2: 1) Joe buys a Thorax BP from Playboy at 20m. 2) Joe uses 4.3m isk on minerals. 3) Joe finds that everybody else has a Thorax BP and can't sell them for over 5.5-6m, with prices only going down because soon everybody has a Thorax BP. 4) Joe is now screwed, because Thorax prices continue going down as Playboy sells more and more copies. Eventually everybody has a copy and Joe never can sell enough Thorax to break even. Just do the math - infinite copies of Thorax BPs totally breaks down the economy for industrialists. Heff is not helping you - he is making it impossible for you to ever become an industrialist. By the way - with Heff now selling BS copies to, you can kiss the profitability of that market goodbye too. Enjoy your mining. You won't be able to make a profit on anything else for very long.
Doctor X	Posted - 2003.07.25 04:18:00 - [44] Edited by: Doctor X on 25/07/2003 04:28:08 Lucas, please consider the following cases: 1) Joe buys a Thorax BP original at 72m. 2) Joe uses 4.3m isk on minerals (this with current mega & zydrine prices) to produce a Thorax. 3) At 10m a piece, Joe must sell 12.5 Thoraxes before he even breaks even! Case 2: 1) Joe buys a Thorax BP from Playboy at 20m. 2) Joe uses 4.3m isk on minerals. 3) Joe finds that everybody else has a Thorax BP and can't sell them for over 5.5-6m, with prices only going down because soon everybody has a Thorax BP. 4) Joe is now screwed, because Thorax prices continue going down as Playboy sells more and more copies. Eventually everybody has a copy and Joe never can sell enough Thorax to break even. Just do the math - infinite copies of Thorax BPs totally breaks down the economy for industrialists. Heff is not helping you - he is making it impossible for you to ever become an industrialist. By the way - with Heff now selling BS copies to, you can kiss the profitability of that market goodbye too. Enjoy your mining. You won't be able to make a profit on anything else for very long.
Neptunus	Posted - 2003.07.25 04:40:00 - [45] Good points Doctor X. It is clear to anyone what practically free bluepints does to the economy: 1) Makes everyone and their dog a ship producer (or missile, weapon, etc producer) 2) Drives prices down, keeping mineral prices very low. Miners should be selling at 2x NPC prices, but all miners are STILL basically making very low NPC wages. 3) Takes MOST customers away by allowing them to build for themselves at cost The only thing that is needed to become an industrialists is a factory slot (practically free), a BP (practically free, thanks to Playboy), and the Production Efficiency skill (only takes a few weeks and is a free startup skill). So, becoming an industrialist, in all other REAL economies is cost prohibitive. In the EVE economy, there are no barriers to entry, which hurts all industrialists and the miners they support.
Neptunus Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2003.07.25 04:40:00 - [46] Good points Doctor X. It is clear to anyone what practically free bluepints does to the economy: 1) Makes everyone and their dog a ship producer (or missile, weapon, etc producer) 2) Drives prices down, keeping mineral prices very low. Miners should be selling at 2x NPC prices, but all miners are STILL basically making very low NPC wages. 3) Takes MOST customers away by allowing them to build for themselves at cost The only thing that is needed to become an industrialists is a factory slot (practically free), a BP (practically free, thanks to Playboy), and the Production Efficiency skill (only takes a few weeks and is a free startup skill). So, becoming an industrialist, in all other REAL economies is cost prohibitive. In the EVE economy, there are no barriers to entry, which hurts all industrialists and the miners they support.
Korban Dallas	Posted - 2003.07.25 04:55:00 - [47] Oh lord... sounds like yet more whining... still havn't debunked any of my previous post.. You get your bp one way or another, ships STILL sell at a profit, so what's your problem? You think everyone was going to buy a spare 3 thoraxes or whatever anyways? That's why there is progression... The real bottom line is that it is a free market economy - either make due or get out..either way, stop crying, it really does make you look like either a sorry loser, a cry baby, or both - this is all within game rules and mechanics, stated so by the devs..
Korban Dallas Gallente	Posted - 2003.07.25 04:55:00 - [48] Oh lord... sounds like yet more whining... still havn't debunked any of my previous post.. You get your bp one way or another, ships STILL sell at a profit, so what's your problem? You think everyone was going to buy a spare 3 thoraxes or whatever anyways? That's why there is progression... The real bottom line is that it is a free market economy - either make due or get out..either way, stop crying, it really does make you look like either a sorry loser, a cry baby, or both - this is all within game rules and mechanics, stated so by the devs..
Heff	Posted - 2003.07.25 05:28:00 - [49] Edited by: Heff on 25/07/2003 06:41:57 Let's be fair here. You saw the link to the dev chat and you saw CCP's response to this specific issue. We used that discussion as a clear signal that this was a valid business venture from CCP's viewpoint. Period, full stop. If you think we are runing the economy, that is too bad. It is ours to ruin. As it is yours, and yours, and everyone else's. To be quite honest, I'm done with this thread. You are clearly looking for scapegoats and I am man enough to be yours if you need one. I really don't care, nor do the people who have made millions as our partners. Go file a petition or quit. Heff President, Playboy Enterprises [email protected]
Heff Playboy Enterprises	Posted - 2003.07.25 05:28:00 - [50] Edited by: Heff on 25/07/2003 06:41:57 Let's be fair here. You saw the link to the dev chat and you saw CCP's response to this specific issue. We used that discussion as a clear signal that this was a valid business venture from CCP's viewpoint. Period, full stop. If you think we are runing the economy, that is too bad. It is ours to ruin. As it is yours, and yours, and everyone else's. To be quite honest, I'm done with this thread. You are clearly looking for scapegoats and I am man enough to be yours if you need one. I really don't care, nor do the people who have made millions as our partners. Go file a petition or quit. Heff President, Playboy Enterprises [email protected]

Doctor X	Posted - 2003.07.25 05:43:00 - [51] Lol how manly, hiding behind a dev who referred to a clearly broken part of Eve. The developers have also said that TL2 and research will fix the problem - somehow you forgot that eh Heff? Nice spin - we need a No Spin Factor for the forums, you'd be hating life then Heff. Some people just don't seem to understand that the cost of the BP must be figured into the price of ship, and a ship sold at 6m, with 4.3m mineral cost, is NOT profitable until one sells enough ships to recover the BP cost. This thread proves one thing for sure Heff: You can fool some of the people some of the time. Playboy is led by a person who is unabashed about the fact that he is taking advantage of clearly broken game mechanics, admits that he is ruinign the economy, and includes people who have been proven to be liars in this very thread. Playboy is one company I would never buy a BP copy from even if I wanted one - at least the other BP sellers don't lie or try to quote one thing developers say and ignore another to spin things their way.
Doctor X	Posted - 2003.07.25 05:43:00 - [52] Lol how manly, hiding behind a dev who referred to a clearly broken part of Eve. The developers have also said that TL2 and research will fix the problem - somehow you forgot that eh Heff? Nice spin - we need a No Spin Factor for the forums, you'd be hating life then Heff. Some people just don't seem to understand that the cost of the BP must be figured into the price of ship, and a ship sold at 6m, with 4.3m mineral cost, is NOT profitable until one sells enough ships to recover the BP cost. This thread proves one thing for sure Heff: You can fool some of the people some of the time. Playboy is led by a person who is unabashed about the fact that he is taking advantage of clearly broken game mechanics, admits that he is ruinign the economy, and includes people who have been proven to be liars in this very thread. Playboy is one company I would never buy a BP copy from even if I wanted one - at least the other BP sellers don't lie or try to quote one thing developers say and ignore another to spin things their way.
Robotek Hybrid	Posted - 2003.07.25 05:49:00 - [53] Edited by: Robotek Hybrid on 25/07/2003 05:51:35 Edited by: Robotek Hybrid on 25/07/2003 05:49:30 hey if all else fails you can just i dunno declare war on em ... hehehe playboy mansion under seige i can see it now. Heck it would be the 1st pvp ive heard of ingame that doesnt involve pirates --------------------------------------------
Robotek Hybrid	Posted - 2003.07.25 05:49:00 - [54] Edited by: Robotek Hybrid on 25/07/2003 05:51:35 Edited by: Robotek Hybrid on 25/07/2003 05:49:30 hey if all else fails you can just i dunno declare war on em ... hehehe playboy mansion under seige i can see it now. Heck it would be the 1st pvp ive heard of ingame that doesnt involve pirates
Neptunus	Posted - 2003.07.25 06:20:00 - [55] What the dev said (actually Hellmar is more than just a dev) is incorrect. Researching mineral efficiency is not the "deciding factor" that makes the original WAY better than the copy. You are referring to a quote that is grossly incorrect as your "way out" of this obvious transgression by Playboy. You and I both know that the BP copies that Playboy sells are either 100% identical or marginally different than the original that Playboy keeps. This completely invalidates Hellmar's statement, to which you so desperately hang and twist in the wind.
Neptunus Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2003.07.25 06:20:00 - [56] What the dev said (actually Hellmar is more than just a dev) is incorrect. Researching mineral efficiency is not the "deciding factor" that makes the original WAY better than the copy. You are referring to a quote that is grossly incorrect as your "way out" of this obvious transgression by Playboy. You and I both know that the BP copies that Playboy sells are either 100% identical or marginally different than the original that Playboy keeps. This completely invalidates Hellmar's statement, to which you so desperately hang and twist in the wind.
Lysithea	Posted - 2003.07.25 06:25:00 - [57] Edited by: Lysithea on 25/07/2003 06:29:24 <HELLMAR> There will be no limit to copying; as copies can't be researched they can't compete with a well-researched blueprint. So they quickly loose value as soon as the novelty of the item wears off and you are competing with researched blueprints. We might also tune the time it takes to copy. Rinse. Repeat as necessary. By resarch, he means tech level research you fool. If they would ever get around to implementing it, and we begin to see product differentiation between products, this wouldn't be an issue. Nice hiding behind your alt in your default starter corp Neptunus. Anyyone drawing that much idiotic attention to their corp would likely be kicked out of it. Until then, cheers to Playboy, cheers to Heff, and tough luck for those of you who did not capitalize on the idea. Heff is a ruler and he treats people right. Much more than can be said of you.
Lysithea Playboy Enterprises	Posted - 2003.07.25 06:25:00 - [58] Edited by: Lysithea on 25/07/2003 06:29:24 <HELLMAR> There will be no limit to copying; as copies can't be researched they can't compete with a well-researched blueprint. So they quickly loose value as soon as the novelty of the item wears off and you are competing with researched blueprints. We might also tune the time it takes to copy. Rinse. Repeat as necessary. By resarch, he means tech level research you fool. If they would ever get around to implementing it, and we begin to see product differentiation between products, this wouldn't be an issue. Nice hiding behind your alt in your default starter corp Neptunus. Anyyone drawing that much idiotic attention to their corp would likely be kicked out of it. Until then, cheers to Playboy, cheers to Heff, and tough luck for those of you who did not capitalize on the idea. Heff is a ruler and he treats people right. Much more than can be said of you.
Neptunus	Posted - 2003.07.25 06:28:00 - [59] Lys - I just completely invalidated that quote. Playboy sells BP copies that are either 100% or marginally different than the original - so there is the original is NOT more valuable. People who use the copies to produce are making the exact same profit as people that produce from the originals. Now read that again, rinse and repeat. It is not uncommon for a CCP dev to be incorrect, as we all have seen time and time again.
Neptunus Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2003.07.25 06:28:00 - [60] Lys - I just completely invalidated that quote. Playboy sells BP copies that are either 100% or marginally different than the original - so there is the original is NOT more valuable. People who use the copies to produce are making the exact same profit as people that produce from the originals. Now read that again, rinse and repeat. It is not uncommon for a CCP dev to be incorrect, as we all have seen time and time again.



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