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 Neptunus    |
Posted - 2003.07.24 19:11:00 -
[1] Edited by: Neptunus on 24/07/2003 20:24:34 There are many forms of warfare in EVE, but they all ultimately result in lost ISK to you or your corporation. I am here to tell you about Playboy Enterprises and their active dealings to take literally billions in lost revenue from many corporations of good (and bad) standing in the galaxy. Let me tell you Playboy EnterpriseÆs modus operandi, and this is something that is known in small circles and a scheme I am sure they will readily admit to: They buy blueprints then sell COUNTLESS copies at roughly the price of the product itself. By flooding the market with cheap BP copies, it allows corporations to build internally and not need to use the market at all. In other words, who would buy a cruiser when they can get the BP for just a bit more? Did you ever wonder why it is so hard to make money selling cruisers now? ItÆs because Playboy Enterprises flooded the market û with 2 results. 1)Corps that really want a lot of cruisers buy BPs from Playboy, taking away the most significant customer base. 2)There are so many producers of cruisers because of Playboy BP flooding that profit margins are in the tank. How much money has you or your corp lost because of the practices Playboy Enterprises? You know as well as I do that you are basically selling the minerals at close to cost in the form of a Moa or a Thorax. ItÆs not just cruisers of course û missiles, weapons, you name it. Now, Playboy Enterprises is in the battleship market. They have already left the cruiser market a wasteland and now it they are steadily destroying the battleship market, which is even more driven by industrialist corps and hard-working individualists. Remember, you may be buying a gun, but you are also shooting yourself in the foot. Ask the cruiser producers what their average profit per sale is. ItÆs hardly worth the time it takes to get together the minerals. The same thing will soon happen to battleship sales thanks to creeps like Heff and Playboy Enterprises that continue to cost the ECONOMY of EVE billions in lost revenue. Yes, this is ôlostö money. Those of you that understand economy know how money can simply evaporate. Yes, Playboy Enterprises makes a ôlittleö money in the sales of the BPs, but in so doing, they are eviscerating hundreds of millions in lost profits for the general population. So it is the height of stupidity and short-sightedness with which Heff runs that company. They are small-time scriveners, huddled in labs, making copies for pennies, hardly enriching themselves while steadily pulling money out of every industrialist in EVE. It is pitiful. I wholeheartedly recommend that all corporations that understand the basics of economics, production, and Intellectual Property dumping boycott Playboy Enterprises, or use this as an opportunity as a casus belli against their corporation. I know I am personally getting together a group of other industrialists who build battleships and we will hunt them if they ever stick their scrivener-gnarled fingers out of a space station. Contact me in game and I will share all intelligence with you on the matter. |
 Neptunus Minmatar Sebiestor tribe |
Posted - 2003.07.24 19:11:00 -
[2] Edited by: Neptunus on 24/07/2003 20:24:34 There are many forms of warfare in EVE, but they all ultimately result in lost ISK to you or your corporation. I am here to tell you about Playboy Enterprises and their active dealings to take literally billions in lost revenue from many corporations of good (and bad) standing in the galaxy. Let me tell you Playboy EnterpriseÆs modus operandi, and this is something that is known in small circles and a scheme I am sure they will readily admit to: They buy blueprints then sell COUNTLESS copies at roughly the price of the product itself. By flooding the market with cheap BP copies, it allows corporations to build internally and not need to use the market at all. In other words, who would buy a cruiser when they can get the BP for just a bit more? Did you ever wonder why it is so hard to make money selling cruisers now? ItÆs because Playboy Enterprises flooded the market û with 2 results. 1)Corps that really want a lot of cruisers buy BPs from Playboy, taking away the most significant customer base. 2)There are so many producers of cruisers because of Playboy BP flooding that profit margins are in the tank. How much money has you or your corp lost because of the practices Playboy Enterprises? You know as well as I do that you are basically selling the minerals at close to cost in the form of a Moa or a Thorax. ItÆs not just cruisers of course û missiles, weapons, you name it. Now, Playboy Enterprises is in the battleship market. They have already left the cruiser market a wasteland and now it they are steadily destroying the battleship market, which is even more driven by industrialist corps and hard-working individualists. Remember, you may be buying a gun, but you are also shooting yourself in the foot. Ask the cruiser producers what their average profit per sale is. ItÆs hardly worth the time it takes to get together the minerals. The same thing will soon happen to battleship sales thanks to creeps like Heff and Playboy Enterprises that continue to cost the ECONOMY of EVE billions in lost revenue. Yes, this is ôlostö money. Those of you that understand economy know how money can simply evaporate. Yes, Playboy Enterprises makes a ôlittleö money in the sales of the BPs, but in so doing, they are eviscerating hundreds of millions in lost profits for the general population. So it is the height of stupidity and short-sightedness with which Heff runs that company. They are small-time scriveners, huddled in labs, making copies for pennies, hardly enriching themselves while steadily pulling money out of every industrialist in EVE. It is pitiful. I wholeheartedly recommend that all corporations that understand the basics of economics, production, and Intellectual Property dumping boycott Playboy Enterprises, or use this as an opportunity as a casus belli against their corporation. I know I am personally getting together a group of other industrialists who build battleships and we will hunt them if they ever stick their scrivener-gnarled fingers out of a space station. Contact me in game and I will share all intelligence with you on the matter. |
 Josephine |
Posted - 2003.07.24 19:27:00 -
[3] I do agree that the damage of said practise is undermining the whole playermarket, as both cruisers and now Bships aswell have shown. Ironically the damage done from that hit against the playermarket most likely is even more damaging to the game as a whole as M0o was, afterall m0o used some unbalanced weapons which were fixed, Heff and company however can't be fixed by just changing some stats, they will leave the first level market dead even after CCP hopefully decide to limit BPs. I do give Playboy the honors though, they have managed this feat of destruction of markets without much noise. And for what it's worth, they have also shown that BPs should propably follow some more stricter form of control than just a limit on copies. I guess showing some nice female specimens around will fool corps a plenty of what is going on behind the scenes of playboy. I wonder if Heff has a negative sec status... |
 Josephine Doomheim |
Posted - 2003.07.24 19:27:00 -
[4] I do agree that the damage of said practise is undermining the whole playermarket, as both cruisers and now Bships aswell have shown. Ironically the damage done from that hit against the playermarket most likely is even more damaging to the game as a whole as M0o was, afterall m0o used some unbalanced weapons which were fixed, Heff and company however can't be fixed by just changing some stats, they will leave the first level market dead even after CCP hopefully decide to limit BPs. I do give Playboy the honors though, they have managed this feat of destruction of markets without much noise. And for what it's worth, they have also shown that BPs should propably follow some more stricter form of control than just a limit on copies. I guess showing some nice female specimens around will fool corps a plenty of what is going on behind the scenes of playboy. I wonder if Heff has a negative sec status... |
 Jack Hayden |
Posted - 2003.07.24 19:57:00 -
[5] The BP issue must be fixed as I see it, there is nothing wrong with copies, but as it was once before, there must be a limit of items produced from a copy BP. Oh, and I am not a manufacturer, but I can see it from their point of view. á "Spelling and grammatical errors are placed solely to test your abilities as a proofreader. All prices include 25% VAT." |
 Jack Hayden Gallente Doomheim |
Posted - 2003.07.24 19:57:00 -
[6] The BP issue must be fixed as I see it, there is nothing wrong with copies, but as it was once before, there must be a limit of items produced from a copy BP. Oh, and I am not a manufacturer, but I can see it from their point of view. á "Spelling and grammatical errors are placed solely to test your abilities as a proofreader. All prices include 25% VAT." |
 Dopey |
Posted - 2003.07.24 20:26:00 -
[7] Neptunus, if thatÆs who your really are, you are a complete jackass. I bet youÆre the one who issued all those felony indictments against college kids who have mp3Æs on their hard-drives. Intellectual property? There is no such thing. All information should be free to all. Blueprints should be free, and the closer to free they are the better. Playboy is awesome. Screw the industrialists. IÆm sick of paying so much for ships. It took me almost a week to get into a cruiser. A WEEK! That should be available after 1 maybe 2 days. YouÆre just trying to ruin the experience of the little guys so you can sit on a fat pile of cash and gloat. Well damn you to hell! If all of eve has to suffer to get you off your thrones FINE! Go playboy! IÆm with you to the end. dopey |
 Dopey |
Posted - 2003.07.24 20:26:00 -
[8] Neptunus, if thatÆs who your really are, you are a complete jackass. I bet youÆre the one who issued all those felony indictments against college kids who have mp3Æs on their hard-drives. Intellectual property? There is no such thing. All information should be free to all. Blueprints should be free, and the closer to free they are the better. Playboy is awesome. Screw the industrialists. IÆm sick of paying so much for ships. It took me almost a week to get into a cruiser. A WEEK! That should be available after 1 maybe 2 days. YouÆre just trying to ruin the experience of the little guys so you can sit on a fat pile of cash and gloat. Well damn you to hell! If all of eve has to suffer to get you off your thrones FINE! Go playboy! IÆm with you to the end. dopey |
Neptunus |
Posted - 2003.07.24 20:36:00 -
[9]
Dopey, you are perhaps the dumbest person I have ever seen on these boards, and that is saying a lot. |
Neptunus Minmatar Sebiestor tribe |
Posted - 2003.07.24 20:36:00 -
[10]
Dopey, you are perhaps the dumbest person I have ever seen on these boards, and that is saying a lot. |
Discorporation |
Posted - 2003.07.24 20:37:00 -
[11] Actually, you should be in a cruiser after a month, perhaps. [Heterocephalus glaber] |
 Discorporation Amarr Evolution Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2003.07.24 20:37:00 -
[12] Actually, you should be in a cruiser after a month, perhaps. |
Heff |
Posted - 2003.07.24 20:52:00 -
[13] Edited by: Heff on 24/07/2003 21:29:47 You sound exactly like a guy we recently kicked out of the corp. Is this your lame attempt to get back at me? COMEDY!!! Anyway, I don't even have to read your message to see how shallow it is. You can't blame me for making blueprints available cheaply. I am doing what is best for the parties involved (my corp and its customers). If I stopped selling blueprints tomorrow, someone else would... and they do! The free market ecomony as it exists in EVE encourages people to do whatever they can do to make a profit. If our selling BP copies makes it hard for you to turn a profit, GOOD! That is the nature of competitive business. My #1 priority lies with my corporation, its customers, and its shareholders. If I wreck your ability to sell ships then I am doing my job. If you have a problem with the economy, tell CCP. I am operating within confines of the game like everyone else. If they change the rules, then I will be forced to adapt like everyone else. Good lord man, wake up! Heff President, Playboy Enterprises [email protected] |
 Heff Playboy Enterprises |
Posted - 2003.07.24 20:52:00 -
[14] Edited by: Heff on 24/07/2003 21:29:47 You sound exactly like a guy we recently kicked out of the corp. Is this your lame attempt to get back at me? COMEDY!!! Anyway, I don't even have to read your message to see how shallow it is. You can't blame me for making blueprints available cheaply. I am doing what is best for the parties involved (my corp and its customers). If I stopped selling blueprints tomorrow, someone else would... and they do! The free market ecomony as it exists in EVE encourages people to do whatever they can do to make a profit. If our selling BP copies makes it hard for you to turn a profit, GOOD! That is the nature of competitive business. My #1 priority lies with my corporation, its customers, and its shareholders. If I wreck your ability to sell ships then I am doing my job. If you have a problem with the economy, tell CCP. I am operating within confines of the game like everyone else. If they change the rules, then I will be forced to adapt like everyone else. Good lord man, wake up! Heff President, Playboy Enterprises [email protected] |
 shazam000 |
Posted - 2003.07.24 21:01:00 -
[15] Slow down there dopey, if thatÆs who you really are, who wants a flame fest? Neptunus brings up some interesting points. If the profit margin is dropped so severely industrialists will stop making ships. And if they do keep making ships the small profit margin will roll over to the miners, whoÆs mineral wonÆt be worth as much. This will make it difficult for the industrialists, or anyone to get their blueprints from anyone but playboy. And if anyone does manage to get a blueprint from outside playboy, the profit margin will be so low that they will never be able to pay off their investment. Do we want to play in an environment where playboy has a monopoly on blueprints? Playboy is hurting eveÆs economy. Are they breaking any rules to do it? No. The responsibility to fix this falls on the shoulders of eveÆs players. NeptunusÆ suggestion of an embargo is perfect. It will be difficult to formally attack playboy, because they can do business without ever leaving their labs. The best way to stop them, and save eveÆs economy, one of the most unique and fun aspects of this game, is to simply not buy their products. I call on all those who care for the future of this game to join in a boycott against playboy. Do it for yourself, do it for your fellow player. Respectfully Shazam |
 shazam000 Vengeance of the Fallen |
Posted - 2003.07.24 21:01:00 -
[16] Slow down there dopey, if thatÆs who you really are, who wants a flame fest? Neptunus brings up some interesting points. If the profit margin is dropped so severely industrialists will stop making ships. And if they do keep making ships the small profit margin will roll over to the miners, whoÆs mineral wonÆt be worth as much. This will make it difficult for the industrialists, or anyone to get their blueprints from anyone but playboy. And if anyone does manage to get a blueprint from outside playboy, the profit margin will be so low that they will never be able to pay off their investment. Do we want to play in an environment where playboy has a monopoly on blueprints? Playboy is hurting eveÆs economy. Are they breaking any rules to do it? No. The responsibility to fix this falls on the shoulders of eveÆs players. NeptunusÆ suggestion of an embargo is perfect. It will be difficult to formally attack playboy, because they can do business without ever leaving their labs. The best way to stop them, and save eveÆs economy, one of the most unique and fun aspects of this game, is to simply not buy their products. I call on all those who care for the future of this game to join in a boycott against playboy. Do it for yourself, do it for your fellow player. Respectfully Shazam |
Motive |
Posted - 2003.07.24 21:32:00 -
[17] 2 words, supply and demand. As supply drops from all these people that get out of the ship business and demand stays constant or rises, price will go up. NPCs probably need to have a fixed need to purchase some ships that scales with number of users in Eve. Since there is no planned obsolesence and no entropy, the Stabber I own now will be just as good a year from now. Heff/Playboy moving in the BB business is the smart thing to do. Our little 4 man corp is only a couple of weeks away from an armageddon BB ourselves. That is the burgeoning market. |
 Uncle Enzo |
Posted - 2003.07.24 21:32:00 -
[18] Edited by: Uncle Enzo on 24/07/2003 21:33:37 Heff says: "I'm destroying the eve economy - but its within the game design, and it profits me, so the heck with any economy except BP trading, not my problem!" Real nice people these playboy types. |
 Motive Caldari Rampage Eternal |
Posted - 2003.07.24 21:32:00 -
[19] 2 words, supply and demand. As supply drops from all these people that get out of the ship business and demand stays constant or rises, price will go up. NPCs probably need to have a fixed need to purchase some ships that scales with number of users in Eve. Since there is no planned obsolesence and no entropy, the Stabber I own now will be just as good a year from now. Heff/Playboy moving in the BB business is the smart thing to do. Our little 4 man corp is only a couple of weeks away from an armageddon BB ourselves. That is the burgeoning market. |
 Uncle Enzo |
Posted - 2003.07.24 21:32:00 -
[20] Edited by: Uncle Enzo on 24/07/2003 21:33:37 Heff says: "I'm destroying the eve economy - but its within the game design, and it profits me, so the heck with any economy except BP trading, not my problem!" Real nice people these playboy types. |
 Lysithea |
Posted - 2003.07.24 22:31:00 -
[21] Edited by: Lysithea on 24/07/2003 22:31:27 Why pick on Heff and Playboy? Everyone is selling BP copies. If they stopped, others would start. This isnÆt a behavioral issue, itÆs mechanical. If it wasnÆt meant to happen, it would have been fixed inside the game mechanics. CCP specifically addressed this issue in a GM chat many weeks or months ago. They donÆt see it as a problem because they know it will resolve itself when research is implemented. Right now, there is just a glut of tech level 1 items. As soon as we have product differentiation, most of this goes away. Regardless, Neptunus, flaming someone else because of your short-sightedness is immature and totally uncalled for. Anyone with your lack of professionalism and market saavy should not be in a corp-minded game.  |
 Lysithea Playboy Enterprises |
Posted - 2003.07.24 22:31:00 -
[22] Edited by: Lysithea on 24/07/2003 22:31:27 Why pick on Heff and Playboy? Everyone is selling BP copies. If they stopped, others would start. This isnÆt a behavioral issue, itÆs mechanical. If it wasnÆt meant to happen, it would have been fixed inside the game mechanics. CCP specifically addressed this issue in a GM chat many weeks or months ago. They donÆt see it as a problem because they know it will resolve itself when research is implemented. Right now, there is just a glut of tech level 1 items. As soon as we have product differentiation, most of this goes away. Regardless, Neptunus, flaming someone else because of your short-sightedness is immature and totally uncalled for. Anyone with your lack of professionalism and market saavy should not be in a corp-minded game. |
 Nootami |
Posted - 2003.07.24 23:48:00 -
[23] Dopey, as a skit in Titus goes... Titus - Tommy, what does the back of my shirt say? Tommy - Titus High Preformance? Titus - Are you Titus? Are you Preformance? ARE YOU HIGH!? Ive never seen a more idiotic (for lack of stronger terminology) statement on these boards. And I have been reading these forums for a long time.
|
 Nootami Amarr Viziam |
Posted - 2003.07.24 23:48:00 -
[24] Dopey, as a skit in Titus goes... Titus - Tommy, what does the back of my shirt say? Tommy - Titus High Preformance? Titus - Are you Titus? Are you Preformance? ARE YOU HIGH!? Ive never seen a more idiotic (for lack of stronger terminology) statement on these boards. And I have been reading these forums for a long time.
|
Uncle Enzo |
Posted - 2003.07.24 23:57:00 -
[25] Edited by: Uncle Enzo on 24/07/2003 23:58:03 Lysithea, Heff is the most obvious and extreme example of a set of people ruining the economy. It is as if you said, "Why pick on the biggest scammer? Everybody scams some". First, it isn't true - lots of people are not going out and breaking the economy. Second, even if it where true, Heff is one of the people to exploit it the most and the worst. He is acting just like Moo: Find a broken game mechanic, then exploit it for all it is worth until the developers get it fixed. He has made an entire corporate business model out of taking one of the most broken things in the Eve mechanics as far as he can. In that sense, Playboy is no better than Moo - Playboy just has better PR, because the way they screw everybody over is much more subtle than how Moo did it. Contrary to what you say, that doesn't speak well for his character or his business practices, it only proves that he is good at gaming the system at the expense of everybody else. |
Uncle Enzo |
Posted - 2003.07.24 23:57:00 -
[26] Edited by: Uncle Enzo on 24/07/2003 23:58:03 Lysithea, Heff is the most obvious and extreme example of a set of people ruining the economy. It is as if you said, "Why pick on the biggest scammer? Everybody scams some". First, it isn't true - lots of people are not going out and breaking the economy. Second, even if it where true, Heff is one of the people to exploit it the most and the worst. He is acting just like Moo: Find a broken game mechanic, then exploit it for all it is worth until the developers get it fixed. He has made an entire corporate business model out of taking one of the most broken things in the Eve mechanics as far as he can. In that sense, Playboy is no better than Moo - Playboy just has better PR, because the way they screw everybody over is much more subtle than how Moo did it. Contrary to what you say, that doesn't speak well for his character or his business practices, it only proves that he is good at gaming the system at the expense of everybody else. |
Princess Akmazara |
Posted - 2003.07.25 00:07:00 -
[27] I don't have a full understanding of the Playboy way of business but this seems clear - they are flooding the market and thus lowering prices and profits for all. I for one have seen ships drop in price in only my three weeks of EVE gameplay. Princess Akmazara Amarrian Empire |
 Princess Akmazara |
Posted - 2003.07.25 00:07:00 -
[28] I don't have a full understanding of the Playboy way of business but this seems clear - they are flooding the market and thus lowering prices and profits for all. I for one have seen ships drop in price in only my three weeks of EVE gameplay. Princess Akmazara Amarrian Empire |
 Korban Dallas |
Posted - 2003.07.25 00:28:00 -
[29] Geez...what is this? I am the cruiser manufacturer for PB... Yes, the prices for cruisers have come way down.. I don't see it as a result of a flood of cruiser bp copies per se, as I was seeing the prices of the cruisers falling well before the market got saturated with copies. Sure, selling copies is a great way to make cash, but it isn't the only attribute in the decline of profits on cruisers. The most notable factor would be people having large scale mining ops to produce ships. Even during the prime time copy sellage, cruisers were selling for anywhere from 7 mil on up (rupture as a basis, the cheapest, which is 4.7 mil npc prices on mins). When a corp got a few people to go mine the unrares to produce ships, that price per ship drops SIGNIFICANTLY.. So all of a sudden, these people that invest a scant amount of time can rake in an extra 2 to 3 mil, or cut their prices to be the only one selling. Get 5 or 10 corps doing this the market drops out. The thing is, anyone could have done that at any point...PB wasn't the downfall, as there are plenty of bp origs there for you to purchase, at what, 2-3 times the cost of one of our copies? Don't be silly.. Happened the same way in the frigate and indie markets well before the cruiser markets..And PB wasn't involved in those markets to the extent of a cruiser market.. So don't hurl insults at what you don't fully consider or understand. Try and find your own niche, make yur own isk, and stop trying to use playground tactics to sully other's momentum. |
 Korban Dallas Gallente |
Posted - 2003.07.25 00:28:00 -
[30] Geez...what is this? I am the cruiser manufacturer for PB... Yes, the prices for cruisers have come way down.. I don't see it as a result of a flood of cruiser bp copies per se, as I was seeing the prices of the cruisers falling well before the market got saturated with copies. Sure, selling copies is a great way to make cash, but it isn't the only attribute in the decline of profits on cruisers. The most notable factor would be people having large scale mining ops to produce ships. Even during the prime time copy sellage, cruisers were selling for anywhere from 7 mil on up (rupture as a basis, the cheapest, which is 4.7 mil npc prices on mins). When a corp got a few people to go mine the unrares to produce ships, that price per ship drops SIGNIFICANTLY.. So all of a sudden, these people that invest a scant amount of time can rake in an extra 2 to 3 mil, or cut their prices to be the only one selling. Get 5 or 10 corps doing this the market drops out. The thing is, anyone could have done that at any point...PB wasn't the downfall, as there are plenty of bp origs there for you to purchase, at what, 2-3 times the cost of one of our copies? Don't be silly.. Happened the same way in the frigate and indie markets well before the cruiser markets..And PB wasn't involved in those markets to the extent of a cruiser market.. So don't hurl insults at what you don't fully consider or understand. Try and find your own niche, make yur own isk, and stop trying to use playground tactics to sully other's momentum. |
Lysithea |
Posted - 2003.07.25 00:44:00 -
[31] Edited by: Lysithea on 25/07/2003 00:45:20 Once and for all, you people who have a problem with blueprint copies can read this developer chat and shut the hell up. This is from the attached link: http://www.evegate.net/exclusives/dev016.php <Wolfgang> *Viking* I have some questions regarding blueprints and manufacturing. Is there a limit on the number of copies you can make on a blueprint? If so, what plans are in place to take care of the rampant over copying that is occurring? Second question. Has manufacturing been changed? I notice today when trying to build, that the mineral needs have gone up, or at least that the rounding has gone away. <Hellmar> there was a bug in manufacturing, the bonus was 0 based were as it should have been 1 based. This lead to the leak in the economy were players were manufacturing items with less than their recycle value, which is not good in a closed system and exploitable. Those that had improved their blueprints/skills will still be better but they can't go under the recycle value, just match it. There will be no limit to copying; as copies can't be researched they can't compete with a well-researched blueprint. So they quickly loose value as soon as the novelty of the item wears off and you are competing with researched blueprints. We might also tune the time it takes to copy. Read it for yourself. If you have a problem, go file a petition or quit the game. God I hate crybabies. |
Lysithea Playboy Enterprises |
Posted - 2003.07.25 00:44:00 -
[32] Edited by: Lysithea on 25/07/2003 00:45:20 Once and for all, you people who have a problem with blueprint copies can read this developer chat and shut the hell up. This is from the attached link: http://www.evegate.net/exclusives/dev016.php <Wolfgang> *Viking* I have some questions regarding blueprints and manufacturing. Is there a limit on the number of copies you can make on a blueprint? If so, what plans are in place to take care of the rampant over copying that is occurring? Second question. Has manufacturing been changed? I notice today when trying to build, that the mineral needs have gone up, or at least that the rounding has gone away. <Hellmar> there was a bug in manufacturing, the bonus was 0 based were as it should have been 1 based. This lead to the leak in the economy were players were manufacturing items with less than their recycle value, which is not good in a closed system and exploitable. Those that had improved their blueprints/skills will still be better but they can't go under the recycle value, just match it. There will be no limit to copying; as copies can't be researched they can't compete with a well-researched blueprint. So they quickly loose value as soon as the novelty of the item wears off and you are competing with researched blueprints. We might also tune the time it takes to copy. Read it for yourself. If you have a problem, go file a petition or quit the game. God I hate crybabies. |
 Rhiannan |
Posted - 2003.07.25 01:53:00 -
[33] Edited by: Rhiannan on 25/07/2003 01:53:57 FACT: The number of blueprints that have actually been sold by Playboy Enterprises, at the time of this post can be counted on one hand FACT: There are over 30 corporations that sell more blueprint copies at a LOWER price than Playboy Enterprises. FACT: We have not "scammed" anybody, be it a freelancer player, or a corporation. The rest is just fiction... |
 Rhiannan Amarr Doomheim |
Posted - 2003.07.25 01:53:00 -
[34] Edited by: Rhiannan on 25/07/2003 01:53:57 FACT: The number of blueprints that have actually been sold by Playboy Enterprises, at the time of this post can be counted on one hand FACT: There are over 30 corporations that sell more blueprint copies at a LOWER price than Playboy Enterprises. FACT: We have not "scammed" anybody, be it a freelancer player, or a corporation. The rest is just fiction... |
Sweet Fresca |
Posted - 2003.07.25 02:47:00 -
[35] This could certainly turn into a debate about how CCP should prevent corps like Playboy from exploiting. For one thing, that post from Hellmar I believe is incorrect. A BP can only be researched to save 5% minerals. 5%!! That is nothing. That brings the cost of a 6 mil ISK cruiser down by 300K. That is hardly economic dominance. Besides, Playboy sells researched copies. It only takes 2 short cycles to nearly reach the maximum mineral savings. It is NOT a stretch to say that Playboy has cost EVE corps more in damages than Moo, m3g4, and all the other pirate corps put together. One thing you dissenters aren't seeing - yes it would not be so bad if there was only around 10 profit margins, but only if there were plenty of customers. You know what? Customers are few and far between because they all have cheap copies. They have killed demand in the cruiser market because everyone that wants to buy cruisers just gets the BP and "rolls their own". |
 Sweet Fresca |
Posted - 2003.07.25 02:47:00 -
[36] This could certainly turn into a debate about how CCP should prevent corps like Playboy from exploiting. For one thing, that post from Hellmar I believe is incorrect. A BP can only be researched to save 5% minerals. 5%!! That is nothing. That brings the cost of a 6 mil ISK cruiser down by 300K. That is hardly economic dominance. Besides, Playboy sells researched copies. It only takes 2 short cycles to nearly reach the maximum mineral savings. It is NOT a stretch to say that Playboy has cost EVE corps more in damages than Moo, m3g4, and all the other pirate corps put together. One thing you dissenters aren't seeing - yes it would not be so bad if there was only around 10 profit margins, but only if there were plenty of customers. You know what? Customers are few and far between because they all have cheap copies. They have killed demand in the cruiser market because everyone that wants to buy cruisers just gets the BP and "rolls their own". |
Ragnar |
Posted - 2003.07.25 02:57:00 -
[37] Edited by: Ragnar on 25/07/2003 02:57:14 Heh Heff I laughed at your "COMEDY!!" response... I will have to use that some time. :) Anyway, what Neptune and others have said here is worrisome. There is no doubt that cheap BP dumping is hurting Taggart Transdimensional in the back pocket. When our customers can buy a BP for about the same price as the ship, it takes away not just one customer, but all of their friends as well. I do not appreciate Playboy Enterprises using this clear "weakness" in the game design to hurt all industrialists. It is...troubling. - Ragnar Danneskj÷ld Taggart Transdimensional, Inc. http://www.taggarttransdimensional.com |
 Ragnar Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc. |
Posted - 2003.07.25 02:57:00 -
[38] Edited by: Ragnar on 25/07/2003 02:57:14 Heh Heff I laughed at your "COMEDY!!" response... I will have to use that some time. :) Anyway, what Neptune and others have said here is worrisome. There is no doubt that cheap BP dumping is hurting Taggart Transdimensional in the back pocket. When our customers can buy a BP for about the same price as the ship, it takes away not just one customer, but all of their friends as well. I do not appreciate Playboy Enterprises using this clear "weakness" in the game design to hurt all industrialists. It is...troubling. - Ragnar Danneskj÷ld Taggart Transdimensional, Inc. http://www.taggarttransdimensional.com |
 Bluto |
Posted - 2003.07.25 03:05:00 -
[39] Edited by: Bluto on 25/07/2003 03:15:13 Edited by: Bluto on 25/07/2003 03:06:02 Rhiannan, a Playboy member wrote: "FACT: The number of blueprints that have actually been sold by Playboy Enterprises, at the time of this post can be counted on one hand The rest is just fiction..." Fiction? Really? Maybe you better check the your own corporation's website, which Heff referred to many times in this thread: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=20333 Heff also said, "We have already worked with dozens of people who previously purchased cruiser and battleship blueprints and we are happy to provide references if trust is an issue." So who is the liar, Rhiannan or Heff and the Playboy website? Rhiannan you better let Heff do the posting for Playboy. He is a much better spindoctor than than you are. |
 Bluto |
Posted - 2003.07.25 03:05:00 -
[40] Edited by: Bluto on 25/07/2003 03:15:13 Edited by: Bluto on 25/07/2003 03:06:02 Rhiannan, a Playboy member wrote: "FACT: The number of blueprints that have actually been sold by Playboy Enterprises, at the time of this post can be counted on one hand The rest is just fiction..." Fiction? Really? Maybe you better check the your own corporation's website, which Heff referred to many times in this thread: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=20333 Heff also said, "We have already worked with dozens of people who previously purchased cruiser and battleship blueprints and we are happy to provide references if trust is an issue." So who is the liar, Rhiannan or Heff and the Playboy website? Rhiannan you better let Heff do the posting for Playboy. He is a much better spindoctor than than you are. |
Lucas De'Thal |
Posted - 2003.07.25 03:24:00 -
[41] As a consumer, all i can say is lower ship prices are good. the rest of you manufacturers who think 10-14mil for a cruiser is a fair price you can go to hell. I know one manufacturer who's total cost to produce a thorax is 3.6mil!!! as i've said, just because you can't price gouge the rest of us for a 300% markup does not a broken system make. also, why does everybody seem to ignore the basics of SUPPLY and DEMAND. Are you telling me that if you know you aren't making a profit but you are still in the business? As more suppliers leave, then the prices will eventually go up if the demand increases. Now if you are still producing and knowing you aren't profiting form it then that's pretty much your own fault. Another thing, say I'm a small corp, you don't want me to enter the manufacturing market, what the hell am I supposed to do (don't say trading as you well know is a specialty field that will soon be nerfed anyways with the random seeding throughout the day or maybe go pirate hunt? - why don't you do that then). Mine for a month so I can buy a cruiser from you that cost 14mil! How is that fair to me??? you guys are just a bunch of whiners and crybabies as the rest of them. ______________________________________________ Hellmar > sorry for the attitude, playing a n00b character through the current state just left me a bit bitter dev chat: Mar 18, 2004 hellmar> "you lot are just so clever you have a good history for out smarting us :-S " dev chat: Feb 12, 2004 |
 Lucas De'Thal |
Posted - 2003.07.25 03:24:00 -
[42] As a consumer, all i can say is lower ship prices are good. the rest of you manufacturers who think 10-14mil for a cruiser is a fair price you can go to hell. I know one manufacturer who's total cost to produce a thorax is 3.6mil!!! as i've said, just because you can't price gouge the rest of us for a 300% markup does not a broken system make. also, why does everybody seem to ignore the basics of SUPPLY and DEMAND. Are you telling me that if you know you aren't making a profit but you are still in the business? As more suppliers leave, then the prices will eventually go up if the demand increases. Now if you are still producing and knowing you aren't profiting form it then that's pretty much your own fault. Another thing, say I'm a small corp, you don't want me to enter the manufacturing market, what the hell am I supposed to do (don't say trading as you well know is a specialty field that will soon be nerfed anyways with the random seeding throughout the day or maybe go pirate hunt? - why don't you do that then). Mine for a month so I can buy a cruiser from you that cost 14mil! How is that fair to me??? you guys are just a bunch of whiners and crybabies as the rest of them. ______________________________________________ Hellmar > sorry for the attitude, playing a n00b character through the current state just left me a bit bitter dev chat: Mar 18, 2004 hellmar> "you lot are just so clever you have a good history for out smarting us :-S " dev chat: Feb 12, 2004 |
Doctor X |
Posted - 2003.07.25 04:18:00 -
[43] Edited by: Doctor X on 25/07/2003 04:28:08 Lucas, please consider the following cases: 1) Joe buys a Thorax BP original at 72m. 2) Joe uses 4.3m isk on minerals (this with current mega & zydrine prices) to produce a Thorax. 3) At 10m a piece, Joe must sell 12.5 Thoraxes before he even breaks even! Case 2: 1) Joe buys a Thorax BP from Playboy at 20m. 2) Joe uses 4.3m isk on minerals. 3) Joe finds that everybody else has a Thorax BP and can't sell them for over 5.5-6m, with prices only going down because soon everybody has a Thorax BP. 4) Joe is now screwed, because Thorax prices continue going down as Playboy sells more and more copies. Eventually everybody has a copy and Joe never can sell enough Thorax to break even. Just do the math - infinite copies of Thorax BPs totally breaks down the economy for industrialists. Heff is not helping you - he is making it impossible for you to ever become an industrialist. By the way - with Heff now selling BS copies to, you can kiss the profitability of that market goodbye too. Enjoy your mining. You won't be able to make a profit on anything else for very long. |
 Doctor X |
Posted - 2003.07.25 04:18:00 -
[44] Edited by: Doctor X on 25/07/2003 04:28:08 Lucas, please consider the following cases: 1) Joe buys a Thorax BP original at 72m. 2) Joe uses 4.3m isk on minerals (this with current mega & zydrine prices) to produce a Thorax. 3) At 10m a piece, Joe must sell 12.5 Thoraxes before he even breaks even! Case 2: 1) Joe buys a Thorax BP from Playboy at 20m. 2) Joe uses 4.3m isk on minerals. 3) Joe finds that everybody else has a Thorax BP and can't sell them for over 5.5-6m, with prices only going down because soon everybody has a Thorax BP. 4) Joe is now screwed, because Thorax prices continue going down as Playboy sells more and more copies. Eventually everybody has a copy and Joe never can sell enough Thorax to break even. Just do the math - infinite copies of Thorax BPs totally breaks down the economy for industrialists. Heff is not helping you - he is making it impossible for you to ever become an industrialist. By the way - with Heff now selling BS copies to, you can kiss the profitability of that market goodbye too. Enjoy your mining. You won't be able to make a profit on anything else for very long. |
Neptunus |
Posted - 2003.07.25 04:40:00 -
[45] Good points Doctor X. It is clear to anyone what practically free bluepints does to the economy: 1) Makes everyone and their dog a ship producer (or missile, weapon, etc producer) 2) Drives prices down, keeping mineral prices very low. Miners should be selling at 2x NPC prices, but all miners are STILL basically making very low NPC wages. 3) Takes MOST customers away by allowing them to build for themselves at cost The only thing that is needed to become an industrialists is a factory slot (practically free), a BP (practically free, thanks to Playboy), and the Production Efficiency skill (only takes a few weeks and is a free startup skill). So, becoming an industrialist, in all other REAL economies is cost prohibitive. In the EVE economy, there are no barriers to entry, which hurts all industrialists and the miners they support. |
Neptunus Minmatar Sebiestor tribe |
Posted - 2003.07.25 04:40:00 -
[46] Good points Doctor X. It is clear to anyone what practically free bluepints does to the economy: 1) Makes everyone and their dog a ship producer (or missile, weapon, etc producer) 2) Drives prices down, keeping mineral prices very low. Miners should be selling at 2x NPC prices, but all miners are STILL basically making very low NPC wages. 3) Takes MOST customers away by allowing them to build for themselves at cost The only thing that is needed to become an industrialists is a factory slot (practically free), a BP (practically free, thanks to Playboy), and the Production Efficiency skill (only takes a few weeks and is a free startup skill). So, becoming an industrialist, in all other REAL economies is cost prohibitive. In the EVE economy, there are no barriers to entry, which hurts all industrialists and the miners they support. |
 Korban Dallas |
Posted - 2003.07.25 04:55:00 -
[47] Oh lord... sounds like yet more whining... still havn't debunked any of my previous post.. You get your bp one way or another, ships STILL sell at a profit, so what's your problem? You think everyone was going to buy a spare 3 thoraxes or whatever anyways? That's why there is progression... The real bottom line is that it is a free market economy - either make due or get out..either way, stop crying, it really does make you look like either a sorry loser, a cry baby, or both - this is all within game rules and mechanics, stated so by the devs.. |
Korban Dallas Gallente |
Posted - 2003.07.25 04:55:00 -
[48] Oh lord... sounds like yet more whining... still havn't debunked any of my previous post.. You get your bp one way or another, ships STILL sell at a profit, so what's your problem? You think everyone was going to buy a spare 3 thoraxes or whatever anyways? That's why there is progression... The real bottom line is that it is a free market economy - either make due or get out..either way, stop crying, it really does make you look like either a sorry loser, a cry baby, or both - this is all within game rules and mechanics, stated so by the devs.. |
Heff |
Posted - 2003.07.25 05:28:00 -
[49] Edited by: Heff on 25/07/2003 06:41:57 Let's be fair here. You saw the link to the dev chat and you saw CCP's response to this specific issue. We used that discussion as a clear signal that this was a valid business venture from CCP's viewpoint. Period, full stop. If you think we are runing the economy, that is too bad. It is ours to ruin. As it is yours, and yours, and everyone else's. To be quite honest, I'm done with this thread. You are clearly looking for scapegoats and I am man enough to be yours if you need one. I really don't care, nor do the people who have made millions as our partners. Go file a petition or quit. Heff President, Playboy Enterprises [email protected] |
Heff Playboy Enterprises |
Posted - 2003.07.25 05:28:00 -
[50] Edited by: Heff on 25/07/2003 06:41:57 Let's be fair here. You saw the link to the dev chat and you saw CCP's response to this specific issue. We used that discussion as a clear signal that this was a valid business venture from CCP's viewpoint. Period, full stop. If you think we are runing the economy, that is too bad. It is ours to ruin. As it is yours, and yours, and everyone else's. To be quite honest, I'm done with this thread. You are clearly looking for scapegoats and I am man enough to be yours if you need one. I really don't care, nor do the people who have made millions as our partners. Go file a petition or quit. Heff President, Playboy Enterprises [email protected] |
 Doctor X |
Posted - 2003.07.25 05:43:00 -
[51] Lol how manly, hiding behind a dev who referred to a clearly broken part of Eve. The developers have also said that TL2 and research will fix the problem - somehow you forgot that eh Heff? Nice spin - we need a No Spin Factor for the forums, you'd be hating life then Heff. Some people just don't seem to understand that the cost of the BP must be figured into the price of ship, and a ship sold at 6m, with 4.3m mineral cost, is NOT profitable until one sells enough ships to recover the BP cost. This thread proves one thing for sure Heff: You can fool some of the people some of the time. Playboy is led by a person who is unabashed about the fact that he is taking advantage of clearly broken game mechanics, admits that he is ruinign the economy, and includes people who have been proven to be liars in this very thread. Playboy is one company I would never buy a BP copy from even if I wanted one - at least the other BP sellers don't lie or try to quote one thing developers say and ignore another to spin things their way. |
Doctor X |
Posted - 2003.07.25 05:43:00 -
[52] Lol how manly, hiding behind a dev who referred to a clearly broken part of Eve. The developers have also said that TL2 and research will fix the problem - somehow you forgot that eh Heff? Nice spin - we need a No Spin Factor for the forums, you'd be hating life then Heff. Some people just don't seem to understand that the cost of the BP must be figured into the price of ship, and a ship sold at 6m, with 4.3m mineral cost, is NOT profitable until one sells enough ships to recover the BP cost. This thread proves one thing for sure Heff: You can fool some of the people some of the time. Playboy is led by a person who is unabashed about the fact that he is taking advantage of clearly broken game mechanics, admits that he is ruinign the economy, and includes people who have been proven to be liars in this very thread. Playboy is one company I would never buy a BP copy from even if I wanted one - at least the other BP sellers don't lie or try to quote one thing developers say and ignore another to spin things their way. |
Robotek Hybrid |
Posted - 2003.07.25 05:49:00 -
[53] Edited by: Robotek Hybrid on 25/07/2003 05:51:35 Edited by: Robotek Hybrid on 25/07/2003 05:49:30 hey if all else fails you can just i dunno declare war on em ... hehehe playboy mansion under seige i can see it now. Heck it would be the 1st pvp ive heard of ingame that doesnt involve pirates   -------------------------------------------- |
 Robotek Hybrid |
Posted - 2003.07.25 05:49:00 -
[54] Edited by: Robotek Hybrid on 25/07/2003 05:51:35 Edited by: Robotek Hybrid on 25/07/2003 05:49:30 hey if all else fails you can just i dunno declare war on em ... hehehe playboy mansion under seige i can see it now. Heck it would be the 1st pvp ive heard of ingame that doesnt involve pirates |
 Neptunus |
Posted - 2003.07.25 06:20:00 -
[55] What the dev said (actually Hellmar is more than just a dev) is incorrect. Researching mineral efficiency is not the "deciding factor" that makes the original WAY better than the copy. You are referring to a quote that is grossly incorrect as your "way out" of this obvious transgression by Playboy. You and I both know that the BP copies that Playboy sells are either 100% identical or marginally different than the original that Playboy keeps. This completely invalidates Hellmar's statement, to which you so desperately hang and twist in the wind. |
Neptunus Minmatar Sebiestor tribe |
Posted - 2003.07.25 06:20:00 -
[56] What the dev said (actually Hellmar is more than just a dev) is incorrect. Researching mineral efficiency is not the "deciding factor" that makes the original WAY better than the copy. You are referring to a quote that is grossly incorrect as your "way out" of this obvious transgression by Playboy. You and I both know that the BP copies that Playboy sells are either 100% identical or marginally different than the original that Playboy keeps. This completely invalidates Hellmar's statement, to which you so desperately hang and twist in the wind. |
Lysithea |
Posted - 2003.07.25 06:25:00 -
[57] Edited by: Lysithea on 25/07/2003 06:29:24 <HELLMAR> There will be no limit to copying; as copies can't be researched they can't compete with a well-researched blueprint. So they quickly loose value as soon as the novelty of the item wears off and you are competing with researched blueprints. We might also tune the time it takes to copy. Rinse. Repeat as necessary. By resarch, he means tech level research you fool. If they would ever get around to implementing it, and we begin to see product differentiation between products, this wouldn't be an issue. Nice hiding behind your alt in your default starter corp Neptunus. Anyyone drawing that much idiotic attention to their corp would likely be kicked out of it. Until then, cheers to Playboy, cheers to Heff, and tough luck for those of you who did not capitalize on the idea. Heff is a ruler and he treats people right. Much more than can be said of you. |
Lysithea Playboy Enterprises |
Posted - 2003.07.25 06:25:00 -
[58] Edited by: Lysithea on 25/07/2003 06:29:24 <HELLMAR> There will be no limit to copying; as copies can't be researched they can't compete with a well-researched blueprint. So they quickly loose value as soon as the novelty of the item wears off and you are competing with researched blueprints. We might also tune the time it takes to copy. Rinse. Repeat as necessary. By resarch, he means tech level research you fool. If they would ever get around to implementing it, and we begin to see product differentiation between products, this wouldn't be an issue. Nice hiding behind your alt in your default starter corp Neptunus. Anyyone drawing that much idiotic attention to their corp would likely be kicked out of it. Until then, cheers to Playboy, cheers to Heff, and tough luck for those of you who did not capitalize on the idea. Heff is a ruler and he treats people right. Much more than can be said of you. |
Neptunus |
Posted - 2003.07.25 06:28:00 -
[59] Lys - I just completely invalidated that quote. Playboy sells BP copies that are either 100% or marginally different than the original - so there is the original is NOT more valuable. People who use the copies to produce are making the exact same profit as people that produce from the originals. Now read that again, rinse and repeat. It is not uncommon for a CCP dev to be incorrect, as we all have seen time and time again. |
Neptunus Minmatar Sebiestor tribe |
Posted - 2003.07.25 06:28:00 -
[60] Lys - I just completely invalidated that quote. Playboy sells BP copies that are either 100% or marginally different than the original - so there is the original is NOT more valuable. People who use the copies to produce are making the exact same profit as people that produce from the originals. Now read that again, rinse and repeat. It is not uncommon for a CCP dev to be incorrect, as we all have seen time and time again. |
Sweet Fresca |
Posted - 2003.07.25 06:35:00 -
[61] Edited by: Sweet Fresca on 25/07/2003 06:36:22 I am afraid Neptunus is correct. Production efficiency will save you 20% of the mineral cost (that has nothing to do with researching the BP). Mineral efficiency research can save you around 5%. So researching the original is not a big deal. Researching is very quick and most BP copies I have seen on the market are already pretty much fully researched. The developer's claim that copies are not "competitive" is wrong. |
Sweet Fresca |
Posted - 2003.07.25 06:35:00 -
[62] Edited by: Sweet Fresca on 25/07/2003 06:36:22 I am afraid Neptunus is correct. Production efficiency will save you 20% of the mineral cost (that has nothing to do with researching the BP). Mineral efficiency research can save you around 5%. So researching the original is not a big deal. Researching is very quick and most BP copies I have seen on the market are already pretty much fully researched. The developer's claim that copies are not "competitive" is wrong. |
Heff |
Posted - 2003.07.25 06:41:00 -
[63] Edited by: Heff on 25/07/2003 15:17:39 Sweet, maybe I should jack up my prices then. Sounds like you guys are telling me I can get more for my blueprint copies. Thanks for the free advertising! Soooo..... here are the slot/cost breakdowns for the Megathron deal if any of you are interested. Let me know ASAP as I hope to close this soon. Partner 1: 241,500,000 (Taken) Partner 2: 210,000,000 (Taken) Partner 3: 178,500,000 Partner 4: 147,000,000 Playboy: 273,000,000 (Taken) Heff President, Playboy Enterprises [email protected] |
Heff Playboy Enterprises |
Posted - 2003.07.25 06:41:00 -
[64] Edited by: Heff on 25/07/2003 15:17:39 Sweet, maybe I should jack up my prices then. Sounds like you guys are telling me I can get more for my blueprint copies. Thanks for the free advertising! Soooo..... here are the slot/cost breakdowns for the Megathron deal if any of you are interested. Let me know ASAP as I hope to close this soon. Partner 1: 241,500,000 (Taken) Partner 2: 210,000,000 (Taken) Partner 3: 178,500,000 Partner 4: 147,000,000 Playboy: 273,000,000 (Taken) Heff President, Playboy Enterprises [email protected] |
j0sephine |
Posted - 2003.07.25 07:58:00 -
[65] "1) Joe buys a Thorax BP original at 72m. 2) Joe uses 4.3m isk on minerals (this with current mega & zydrine prices) to produce a Thorax. 3) At 10m a piece, Joe must sell 12.5 Thoraxes before he even breaks even!" Joe becomes familiar with the concept of market entry costs. "1) Joe buys a Thorax BP from Playboy at 20m. 2) Joe uses 4.3m isk on minerals. 3) Joe finds that everybody else has a Thorax BP and can't sell them for over 5.5-6m, with prices only going down because soon everybody has a Thorax BP. 4) Joe is now screwed, because Thorax prices continue going down as Playboy sells more and more copies. Eventually everybody has a copy and Joe never can sell enough Thorax to break even." Joe can only blame himself for his poor investment, and in the future might even research the market he tries to get into instead of jumping head-first. ... am sorry, just what exactly is the problem in the presented cases?.. |
 j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2003.07.25 07:58:00 -
[66] "1) Joe buys a Thorax BP original at 72m. 2) Joe uses 4.3m isk on minerals (this with current mega & zydrine prices) to produce a Thorax. 3) At 10m a piece, Joe must sell 12.5 Thoraxes before he even breaks even!" Joe becomes familiar with the concept of market entry costs. "1) Joe buys a Thorax BP from Playboy at 20m. 2) Joe uses 4.3m isk on minerals. 3) Joe finds that everybody else has a Thorax BP and can't sell them for over 5.5-6m, with prices only going down because soon everybody has a Thorax BP. 4) Joe is now screwed, because Thorax prices continue going down as Playboy sells more and more copies. Eventually everybody has a copy and Joe never can sell enough Thorax to break even." Joe can only blame himself for his poor investment, and in the future might even research the market he tries to get into instead of jumping head-first. ... am sorry, just what exactly is the problem in the presented cases?.. |
Teister |
Posted - 2003.07.25 08:38:00 -
[67] Edited by: Teister on 25/07/2003 09:01:50 Edited by: Teister on 25/07/2003 08:52:49 There is another side to this issue which is being missed. With BP inexpensive for everybody, more ships are afordable and available. That may be bad for your ship building business, but good for mine. Ships require minerals in large quanties, especially mega and zyd. I supply mega and zyd and demand is strong so sales and profit are up. So, from your point of view, cheep BP are bad for business. But for hundreds of miners, especially for those of us who specialize in Mega and Zyd sales, cheep BP's are good.  Teister CEO Independent Miners Guild President, CFS Alliance www.cfs-eve.org |
 Teister Minmatar Aonyma |
Posted - 2003.07.25 08:38:00 -
[68] Edited by: Teister on 25/07/2003 09:01:50 Edited by: Teister on 25/07/2003 08:52:49 There is another side to this issue which is being missed. With BP inexpensive for everybody, more ships are afordable and available. That may be bad for your ship building business, but good for mine. Ships require minerals in large quanties, especially mega and zyd. I supply mega and zyd and demand is strong so sales and profit are up. So, from your point of view, cheep BP are bad for business. But for hundreds of miners, especially for those of us who specialize in Mega and Zyd sales, cheep BP's are good. Teister CEO Independent Miners Guild President, CFS Alliance www.cfs-eve.org |
Athule Snanm |
Posted - 2003.07.25 10:11:00 -
[69] The original poster was right about one thing - it is economic warfare, and Playboy seem to be winning at it. Something needs to be done about frantic BP copying, but until that happens I don't see anything that isn't legitimate in game terms. A couple of months ago before the market got saturated and there were only one or two people doing this mass production you could have probably stopped it with a well timed war. Of course, war is never profitable...well, now we see the end result of that. You've lost the war and not a single shot has been fired. In fact Playboy and other big corps (they are not unique by any means) have wiped the floor with you. When figuring BP copy worths to a corp, don't forget that many buy them for self-equipping. To use an example given above if a corp can produce thoraxes at 3.6M and everyone else is selling them at 6.5M and they bought the BP for 20M, they only need to make 7 for their own purposes to make their money back. Any ships sold on the market after that are mineral-worth-improving profit making ventures, pure and simple. Let's face it, you need minimal specialised skills and facilities to get into production with no exclusivity at all to your product - so it's highly unsuprising that ship costs are tending to production costs. _______________________________ Doomheim - EVE's only hygiene! |
 Athule Snanm Amarr Blue Apple Industries |
Posted - 2003.07.25 10:11:00 -
[70] The original poster was right about one thing - it is economic warfare, and Playboy seem to be winning at it. Something needs to be done about frantic BP copying, but until that happens I don't see anything that isn't legitimate in game terms. A couple of months ago before the market got saturated and there were only one or two people doing this mass production you could have probably stopped it with a well timed war. Of course, war is never profitable...well, now we see the end result of that. You've lost the war and not a single shot has been fired. In fact Playboy and other big corps (they are not unique by any means) have wiped the floor with you. When figuring BP copy worths to a corp, don't forget that many buy them for self-equipping. To use an example given above if a corp can produce thoraxes at 3.6M and everyone else is selling them at 6.5M and they bought the BP for 20M, they only need to make 7 for their own purposes to make their money back. Any ships sold on the market after that are mineral-worth-improving profit making ventures, pure and simple. Let's face it, you need minimal specialised skills and facilities to get into production with no exclusivity at all to your product - so it's highly unsuprising that ship costs are tending to production costs. _______________________________ Doomheim - EVE's only hygiene! |
Tinkka |
Posted - 2003.07.25 20:36:00 -
[71] All the people complaining in this post are total noobs who can't grasp how well the game mechanics in Eve actually works. There are two parts to making a profit. Selling at high prices and reducing your expenses. Playboy started out by spending time to make deals instead of mining, etc.. Instead of dumping 80 million isk to buy a single cruiser original, they bought FOUR original MOA, MALLER, THORAX, RUPTURE blueprints for 80 million by getting investors to contribute isk in exchange for copies. It took a three weeks for the game to spit out enough copies for all the investors, but Playboy managed to save 240 million isk in blueprints. Those blueprints in turn are now producing additional copies which they are selling. For a mere 80 million ISK, they are now making 80 million isk every couple days as new copies are produced. This is with ZERO time invested. I should know since making the BP deal was originally my idea and Heff was in my deal before it fell apart at the last minute. PB resurrected the deal afterwards and I was part of it. I got my MOA bp copy for 10 million and made 50 million profit in MOA sales the first week. I bought my own MOA original the very next week. The only people who are losing out are the ones who decided to spend their time slaving away at astroids for weeks to make enough to buy that 80 million MOA original blueprint. If you ask me the most valuable commodity is TIME. You could spend a lot of TIME gathering minerals yourself to produce a couple ships at 5200k profit. You could make a deal with a mining corp to have minerals delivered at a higher cost, but you could produce three times as much ships at 300k profit each. Right now Playboy is at the top of the food chain with Battleship Blueprint copying, but once the market gets saturated with battleship blueprints, ship manufacturers will move to the top of the food chain. Blueprint copies are never destroyed except accidentally. Ships get blown up all the time and need to be replaced. The best ship manufacturers will be the ones which can best maximized their profits by selling high and reducing their costs in the shortest amount of turnaround time. |
 Tinkka |
Posted - 2003.07.25 20:36:00 -
[72] All the people complaining in this post are total noobs who can't grasp how well the game mechanics in Eve actually works. There are two parts to making a profit. Selling at high prices and reducing your expenses. Playboy started out by spending time to make deals instead of mining, etc.. Instead of dumping 80 million isk to buy a single cruiser original, they bought FOUR original MOA, MALLER, THORAX, RUPTURE blueprints for 80 million by getting investors to contribute isk in exchange for copies. It took a three weeks for the game to spit out enough copies for all the investors, but Playboy managed to save 240 million isk in blueprints. Those blueprints in turn are now producing additional copies which they are selling. For a mere 80 million ISK, they are now making 80 million isk every couple days as new copies are produced. This is with ZERO time invested. I should know since making the BP deal was originally my idea and Heff was in my deal before it fell apart at the last minute. PB resurrected the deal afterwards and I was part of it. I got my MOA bp copy for 10 million and made 50 million profit in MOA sales the first week. I bought my own MOA original the very next week. The only people who are losing out are the ones who decided to spend their time slaving away at astroids for weeks to make enough to buy that 80 million MOA original blueprint. If you ask me the most valuable commodity is TIME. You could spend a lot of TIME gathering minerals yourself to produce a couple ships at 5200k profit. You could make a deal with a mining corp to have minerals delivered at a higher cost, but you could produce three times as much ships at 300k profit each. Right now Playboy is at the top of the food chain with Battleship Blueprint copying, but once the market gets saturated with battleship blueprints, ship manufacturers will move to the top of the food chain. Blueprint copies are never destroyed except accidentally. Ships get blown up all the time and need to be replaced. The best ship manufacturers will be the ones which can best maximized their profits by selling high and reducing their costs in the shortest amount of turnaround time. |
Galadon |
Posted - 2003.07.26 04:09:00 -
[73] First of all, let me state for the record that "I abhor the practices of any corp or individual who drops the bottom out of any market." That being said, all of you casting stones at Playboy Enterprises need to take a long look in the mirror and at the history of the market you have created. What Playboy Enterprises is doing is nothing new, in fact, it has been going on since just about one month after release in many other areas and has been encouraged by all of you. Case in point: The drone market In the early weeks after release, the drone market was booming. Improved mining drones were selling for 70k to 90k ISK, with Elite mining drones going for about 270k ISK and Harvester mining drones costing around 380k ISK per drone. Soon the price for Harvesters dropped to 100k and then all the way down to 25k or 30k within a couple of days. Were the prices too high to begin with? Well the price of a basic mining drone on the npc market is still at 18k, figure the difference in yield and its value to miners universe wide and I would say definitely not. Not on the old forum board or this one is there a single post of your outrage about such a devastating blow to a market. Why, because every single one of you profited greatly from the increased yield of your mining operations and the decreased expenditure required to achieve said yield. Rather than post in outrage, you encouraged the decline of this market for your own profit. Even worse, you wanted delivery included in the price and further discounts for bulk orders. Now, all of a sudden, because someone is cutting into your profits and driving the bottom out of your market, it's an outrage! They need to be boycotted or killed! Please,  take some responsibility for your own actions and greed. After all, they are what created the market and economy we live in today.So, rather than placing blame on Playboy Enterprises or CCP and the devs for not putting in measures to prevent such atrocities, we all need to share in the blame for the market and economy which "we the players" have created for ourselves through greed and the need for quick sales. Besides, a "real corp" would declare war on another corp to protect it's investment and livelihood, rather than whining on the boards and making idle threats about such injustices. "If it isn't worth protecting, then it isn't worth having!" The Freedom To Excel - The Power To Succeed The Freedom To Excel - The Power To Succeed |
 Galadon Gallente |
Posted - 2003.07.26 04:09:00 -
[74] First of all, let me state for the record that "I abhor the practices of any corp or individual who drops the bottom out of any market." That being said, all of you casting stones at Playboy Enterprises need to take a long look in the mirror and at the history of the market you have created. What Playboy Enterprises is doing is nothing new, in fact, it has been going on since just about one month after release in many other areas and has been encouraged by all of you. Case in point: The drone market In the early weeks after release, the drone market was booming. Improved mining drones were selling for 70k to 90k ISK, with Elite mining drones going for about 270k ISK and Harvester mining drones costing around 380k ISK per drone. Soon the price for Harvesters dropped to 100k and then all the way down to 25k or 30k within a couple of days. Were the prices too high to begin with? Well the price of a basic mining drone on the npc market is still at 18k, figure the difference in yield and its value to miners universe wide and I would say definitely not. Not on the old forum board or this one is there a single post of your outrage about such a devastating blow to a market. Why, because every single one of you profited greatly from the increased yield of your mining operations and the decreased expenditure required to achieve said yield. Rather than post in outrage, you encouraged the decline of this market for your own profit. Even worse, you wanted delivery included in the price and further discounts for bulk orders. Now, all of a sudden, because someone is cutting into your profits and driving the bottom out of your market, it's an outrage! They need to be boycotted or killed! Please, take some responsibility for your own actions and greed. After all, they are what created the market and economy we live in today.So, rather than placing blame on Playboy Enterprises or CCP and the devs for not putting in measures to prevent such atrocities, we all need to share in the blame for the market and economy which "we the players" have created for ourselves through greed and the need for quick sales. Besides, a "real corp" would declare war on another corp to protect it's investment and livelihood, rather than whining on the boards and making idle threats about such injustices. "If it isn't worth protecting, then it isn't worth having!" The Freedom To Excel - The Power To Succeed The Freedom To Excel - The Power To Succeed |
 Sybell Amarr Quantum Tunneling Enterprises |
Posted - 2007.04.08 02:19:00 -
[75] sounds good, hook a brother up |
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