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Karl Hobb
Stellar Ore Refinery and Crematorium
1522
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 19:43:00 -
[91] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:outwards to where? Oh, I don't know, maybe somewhere they can actually find decent asteroids to mine? Professional bad guys were unfortunately not available so instead they sent me. |

Dave Stark
2542
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 19:45:00 -
[92] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:Dave Stark wrote:[quote=Tippia] income between 0.7 and 0.5 is exactly the same, they contain identical ores. in fact, if you're cherry picking scordite my sources are informing me that everywhere is equally profitable in high security space. see. You are neglecting 'roid size, lost half cycles, time it takes to move to a new belt, etc. 0.5 is more profitable because the rocks are larger and regrow faster, so fewer half cycles and less repositioning from belt to belt..
really not as big of a deal as people like to complain about. |

LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
559
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 19:45:00 -
[93] - Quote
Daimon Kaiera wrote:Micheal Dietrich wrote:Daimon Kaiera wrote:Micheal Dietrich wrote: What do you mean whats the point of owning it in the first place? The point is whatever you had planned for it. What kind of stupid question is that?
I own X that I plan to use for Y, but I can't afford to lose it. So I guess I should never fly it for now. And if you're going to say, "Then don't buy it if you know you won't be able to afford to lose it" then the "rule" should change to "Don't buy what you can't afford to lose." It's the same quote with 2 different ways of saying it. Cultural thing, some people say pop, some say soda. Really, now? Because I always assumed the quote meant to never take it out of hangar until you were sure you could risk it.
Perhaps the quote should be, don't buy it unless you have an alternate means of making ISK, should you lose it.
I knew a guy that sold pretty much everything he had to by a billion ISK faction battleship then pimp it out in another billion isk worth of faction mods. When he got suicide ganked on a gate, he was back to running L3s in a BC for a couple days to get enough ISK to buy and fit a T1 BS.
He would not have been any better off, had he sold everything to buy that ship, then left it sitting in the hanger while he spent a couple days running L3s in a BC to get the ISK to buy and fit a T1 BS.
Same would go for a hulk. Don't spend all your ISK on a 200 million ISK hulk, if losing it means you'll be back mining in a venture. Stay in the retriever until you can buy the hulk without having to sell the retriever.
|

Lord Zim
2356
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 21:00:00 -
[94] - Quote
Or he could've just spent a few more days doing whatever he did in something less expensive, yet almost equally as good at the job. Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.
RIP Vile Rat |

Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
3163
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 21:42:00 -
[95] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:mining is already poorly paid without being "forced" in to lower income areas of space. Well ... ... too bad most miners (not you!) don't understand that more miners lead to less income ... ^_^ |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13580
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 21:45:00 -
[96] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:You are neglecting 'roid size, lost half cycles, time it takes to move to a new belt, etc.
0.5 is more profitable because the rocks are larger and regrow faster, so fewer half cycles and less repositioning from belt to belt. GǪas long as they aren't being constantly mined to dust by everyone living there. An empty 0.7 gives you far more ore than a crowded 0.5.
Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |

Frying Doom
2306
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 21:57:00 -
[97] - Quote
Now while to High an inflation rate is a bed thing and an isk sink would be good, there is probably a reason why inflation has been allowed to remain this high for this long.
Bounties.
Yep the number 1 isk faucet, is also a reason why it has been left for so so long, as you kill a red x, you get a payout but that payout is fixed, so the longer it is left the less those payout are actually worth.
But personally I feel we have waited long enough and would like to see the inflation rate lowered via a large isk sink. Namely the increase of costs to NPC facilities.
Lets face it if it continues much longer, miners and manufacturers will be fine but anyone collecting bounties or selling items on an NPC buy order will start to feel the pinch, if they are not already doing so. Considering what you can buy for killing a red cross is so much less now than it was 2 years ago.
Vote Now! My recommendations are:-á 1.James Arget 2.Ayeson 3.Nathan Jameson 4.Cipreh 5.Chitsa Jason 6. Malcanis 7. Mike Azariah 8. Ripard Teg 9. Mangala Solaris 10. Ali Aras 11. Roc Wieler And remember not voting is the same as voting for Null. |

cytheras wrath
Blackwater Voodoo N.O.M.A.D.S
16
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 22:15:00 -
[98] - Quote
If you want prices to go down, make the crap yourself... the BPO's for all T1 things are still the same price as they were 5or 9 years ago ( not sure about 9 but anyways ).
mine, research, make your own ship. if you want it now, pay the isk... its about the same 'cost' of time invested to aquire the ship yourself via mining > manufacturing > riding then it is to mission > go to market > buy ship
L2EVE |

Dave Stark
2544
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 22:24:00 -
[99] - Quote
Solstice Project wrote:Dave Stark wrote:mining is already poorly paid ... Well ... ... too bad most miners (not you!) don't understand that more miners lead to less income ... ^_^
but you forget, that's irrelevant. mining is only poorly paid in comparison to other activities, but no matter how much mining isk/hour changes miners never feel it. a fact i've pointed out many times to people. |

Frying Doom
2306
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 22:32:00 -
[100] - Quote
cytheras wrath wrote:If you want prices to go down, make the crap yourself... the BPO's for all T1 things are still the same price as they were 5or 9 years ago ( not sure about 9 but anyways ).
mine, research, make your own ship. if you want it now, pay the isk... its about the same 'cost' of time invested to aquire the ship yourself via mining > manufacturing > riding then it is to mission > go to market > buy ship
L2EVE Ok so I see you have no idea what inflation is.
Yes the isk sink that is BPOs is still in existence and they only recently got a small price hike.
Inflation is all about purchasing power, now items them selves such as ships will rise and fall on a supply and demand curve due to the amount of miners vs pvp players, but the amount of buying power people have for shooting a red x or the fact that the cost of those BPOs compared to buying power is now laughable.
So here is the easy version for you,big inflation = bad. Vote Now! My recommendations are:-á 1.James Arget 2.Ayeson 3.Nathan Jameson 4.Cipreh 5.Chitsa Jason 6. Malcanis 7. Mike Azariah 8. Ripard Teg 9. Mangala Solaris 10. Ali Aras 11. Roc Wieler And remember not voting is the same as voting for Null. |

LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
561
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 23:25:00 -
[101] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:cytheras wrath wrote:If you want prices to go down, make the crap yourself... the BPO's for all T1 things are still the same price as they were 5or 9 years ago ( not sure about 9 but anyways ).
mine, research, make your own ship. if you want it now, pay the isk... its about the same 'cost' of time invested to aquire the ship yourself via mining > manufacturing > riding then it is to mission > go to market > buy ship
L2EVE Ok so I see you have no idea what inflation is. Yes the isk sink that is BPOs is still in existence and they only recently got a small price hike. Inflation is all about purchasing power, now items them selves such as ships will rise and fall on a supply and demand curve due to the amount of miners vs pvp players, but the amount of buying power people have for shooting a red x or the fact that the cost of those BPOs compared to buying power is now laughable. So here is the easy version for you,big inflation = bad.
Here is the easy version for you! Inflation is not bad for miners (unless they are buying T2, then moon goo inflation sucks, but mineral inflation cancels this out).
Heck, I find inflation to be a good thing when I have to mine fewer hours to buy skill books, buy BPOs, rent NPC manufacturing and research slots, pay my corp office rents, etc.
Inflation may be bad for people shooting red +, but not so much for the people selling to the people shooting the red +. Maybe you should switch. It may even lower the inflation. Just don't mine the rocks in the systems where I likes to mine. |

Frying Doom
2306
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 00:06:00 -
[102] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:Frying Doom wrote:cytheras wrath wrote:If you want prices to go down, make the crap yourself... the BPO's for all T1 things are still the same price as they were 5or 9 years ago ( not sure about 9 but anyways ).
mine, research, make your own ship. if you want it now, pay the isk... its about the same 'cost' of time invested to aquire the ship yourself via mining > manufacturing > riding then it is to mission > go to market > buy ship
L2EVE Ok so I see you have no idea what inflation is. Yes the isk sink that is BPOs is still in existence and they only recently got a small price hike. Inflation is all about purchasing power, now items them selves such as ships will rise and fall on a supply and demand curve due to the amount of miners vs pvp players, but the amount of buying power people have for shooting a red x or the fact that the cost of those BPOs compared to buying power is now laughable. So here is the easy version for you,big inflation = bad. Here is the easy version for you! Inflation is not bad for miners (unless they are buying T2, then moon goo inflation sucks, but mineral inflation cancels this out). Heck, I find inflation to be a good thing when I have to mine fewer hours to buy skill books, buy BPOs, rent NPC manufacturing and research slots, pay my corp office rents, etc. Inflation may be bad for people shooting red +, but not so much for the people selling to the people shooting the red +. Maybe you should switch. It may even lower the inflation. Just don't mine the rocks in the systems where I likes to mine. I love how in these forums if you say, something is bad for a set of players, people automatically assume you are one of those players.
Now personally I wouldn't rat or run a mission, I can think of nothing more boring.
Now why inflation is bad for you.
Yes when you rent NPC slots for there laughable price, inflation is good for you but how about when you buy a BPO. Well say you want to buy a Battleship BPO and this equates to 100 hours mining for example, with inflation it means what took you 100 hours will take someone 95 hours or so next year (Assuming nothing else alters the supply/demand curve). So the value of your time purchasing that BPO is decreased and will continue to do so as time goes on.
How about office rent? Well as that is linked to the availability of offices and the amounts people are willing to pay, so as inflation decreases the worth of isk, prices will increase so you will pay more as time goes on so you are at no advantage here.
So your only real upside to inflation is the fixed NPC cost of slots, now this in itself is set completely wrong as it discourages players from setting out on their own and setting up their own, industry slots via a POS. In a game with a player driven economy it makes no sense to penalize players that have spent capital and taken a higher risk, as well as made them a larger member of the player community. Now this system might work if EvE was based on a socialist or communist structure, but eve is very much the capitalist system, so why do we allow a welfare system for those that choose not to work?
Increasing the cost of those slots will decrease inflation as well as give players the incentive to do other things in the game. Now a large number of players are happy sitting in a NPC corp and mining and manufacturing, I personally see no harm in this to the game as a whole, but I fell that those players should pay an equal share for the use of NPC facilities as a player that takes risk does, plus a small amount due to their risk mitigation. Vote Now! My recommendations are:-á 1.James Arget 2.Ayeson 3.Nathan Jameson 4.Cipreh 5.Chitsa Jason 6. Malcanis 7. Mike Azariah 8. Ripard Teg 9. Mangala Solaris 10. Ali Aras 11. Roc Wieler And remember not voting is the same as voting for Null. |

Agnar Volta
Shrubbery Acquisitions
97
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 05:04:00 -
[103] - Quote
I don't see inflation in EVE as a major problem now, what I see is the distribution of the wealth being too strong towards the older players.
Noob income from lvl 1 missions, mining in ventures and salvaging is too low to maintain even cheap RVB PVP going in a sustainable way.
The end result is a rush for lvl 3 missions in Drakes and mining barges. You have to grow fast your skills in carebear activities and leave the important PVP skills behind as you can't afford lose 5 or 6 millions ISK a day in tackle frigates.
The end result is a long stretch of time doing a boring activities better done solo then doing some cheap PVP with friends which would be fun for everyone.
Nothing of this touch manufacturing that also need top skills to be competitive, which in a noob point of view takes ages just to be on par, not better, than establish players.
There are several ways to make ISK in EVE, but apart from trading in a trade hub, they all require what noobs don't have: skill points, advanced in game knowledge or good reliable friends. Not to mention that they are all boring, like chores that you have to do so you can enjoy the fun parts.
Odyssey might have a fix for that in the new exploration system, but only if in order to be competitive I won't need a tengu from the start.
Main problem is how to adjust that without stepping in the Malcani's law. |

culo duro
Next Level Alcoholics
69
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 09:39:00 -
[104] - Quote
inb4 goons wreck Jita again, and makes everything go **** expensive. |

Frying Doom
2309
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 10:03:00 -
[105] - Quote
Agnar Volta wrote:I don't see inflation in EVE as a major problem now, what I see is the distribution of the wealth being too strong towards the older players. Yes Comrade 
Agnar Volta wrote:Noob income from lvl 1 missions, mining in ventures and salvaging is too low to maintain even cheap RVB PVP going in a sustainable way.
The end result is a rush for lvl 3 missions in Drakes and mining barges. You have to grow fast your skills in carebear activities and leave the important PVP skills behind as you can't afford lose 5 or 6 millions ISK a day in tackle frigates.
The end result is a long stretch of time doing a boring activities better done solo then doing some cheap PVP with friends which would be fun for everyone.
Nothing of this touch manufacturing that also need top skills to be competitive, which in a noob point of view takes ages just to be on par, not better, than establish players.
There are several ways to make ISK in EVE, but apart from trading in a trade hub, they all require what noobs don't have: skill points, advanced in game knowledge or good reliable friends. Not to mention that they are all boring, like chores that you have to do so you can enjoy the fun parts.
Odyssey might have a fix for that in the new exploration system, but only if in order to be competitive I won't need a tengu from the start.
Main problem is how to adjust that without stepping in the Malcani's law. I would like to see the employment pathway for a manufacturer to be even longer, by making POS competitive in the market place, which would also allow areas other than Hi-sec to become more competitive.
But as to Noobs pvping, well that was one of the things I found even with experienced players, if you dont have the financial baking of your corp, PvP players are quiet poor people. Vote Now! My recommendations are:-á 1.James Arget 2.Ayeson 3.Nathan Jameson 4.Cipreh 5.Chitsa Jason 6. Malcanis 7. Mike Azariah 8. Ripard Teg 9. Mangala Solaris 10. Ali Aras 11. Roc Wieler And remember not voting is the same as voting for Null. |

Frying Doom
2309
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 10:04:00 -
[106] - Quote
culo duro wrote:inb4 goons wreck Jita again, and makes everything go **** expensive. I believe that is what economists refer to as seasonally adjusted  Vote Now! My recommendations are:-á 1.James Arget 2.Ayeson 3.Nathan Jameson 4.Cipreh 5.Chitsa Jason 6. Malcanis 7. Mike Azariah 8. Ripard Teg 9. Mangala Solaris 10. Ali Aras 11. Roc Wieler And remember not voting is the same as voting for Null. |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13582
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 11:55:00 -
[107] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:culo duro wrote:inb4 goons wreck Jita again, and makes everything go **** expensive. I believe that is what economists refer to as seasonally adjusted  I think it's what economists call GÇ£stop sniffing glue, you're hallucinatingGÇ¥. Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |

Frying Doom
2309
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 13:12:00 -
[108] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Frying Doom wrote:culo duro wrote:inb4 goons wreck Jita again, and makes everything go **** expensive. I believe that is what economists refer to as seasonally adjusted  I think it's what economists call GÇ£stop sniffing glue, you're hallucinatingGÇ¥. If you believe an economist would say that, you must not read many economic forecasts  Vote Now! My recommendations are:-á 1.James Arget 2.Ayeson 3.Nathan Jameson 4.Cipreh 5.Chitsa Jason 6. Malcanis 7. Mike Azariah 8. Ripard Teg 9. Mangala Solaris 10. Ali Aras 11. Roc Wieler And remember not voting is the same as voting for Null. |

Sentamon
811
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 13:22:00 -
[109] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Frying Doom wrote:culo duro wrote:inb4 goons wreck Jita again, and makes everything go **** expensive. I believe that is what economists refer to as seasonally adjusted  I think it's what economists call GÇ£stop sniffing glue, you're hallucinatingGÇ¥.
Pretty sure the only economists that know anything are the ones sniffing glue. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |

baltec1
Bat Country
5927
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 13:39:00 -
[110] - Quote
So what exactly do you want us to blow up/distroy now? |

flakeys
Arkham Innovations Paper Tiger Coalition
980
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 14:51:00 -
[111] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:So what exactly do you want us to blow up/distroy now?
Your Alliance ... Your blue list .... Your tech moons ....
So much to choose from ...... let's start small and blow up yourself through the biomass option shall we ?
We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
|

Tub Chil
Last Men Standing
51
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 14:56:00 -
[112] - Quote
Doc Fury wrote:Three words:
Player Driven Economy.
3 words: remove drone poo
it's not even funny when people talk about eve like it is self sustained system, without involvement from game developers How can someone not realize that game devs have TOOLS to change prices, and they will use them as they see fit. |

l0rd carlos
Friends Of Harassment
388
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 14:56:00 -
[113] - Quote
Ken 1138 wrote:Doc Fury wrote:Three words:
Player Driven Economy.
Yes but try buying a 150-300 mil ship unfitted no less, when you're a new player who doesn't know how to make any ISK. I've explained this to new players I've met and was almost apologetic about the high costs. I think alot of T1 ships have very expensive to very ridiculous costs. Why should a new player buy a 150-300mio ship? German blog about smallscale lowsec pvp: http://friendsofharassment.wordpress.com |

Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog
Homowners
70
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 15:02:00 -
[114] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Now while to High an inflation rate is a bed thing and an isk sink would be good, there is probably a reason why inflation has been allowed to remain this high for this long.
Bounties.
Yep the number 1 isk faucet, is also a reason why it has been left for so so long, as you kill a red x, you get a payout but that payout is fixed, so the longer it is left the less those payout are actually worth.
But personally I feel we have waited long enough and would like to see the inflation rate lowered via a large isk sink. Namely the increase of costs to NPC facilities.
Lets face it if it continues much longer, miners and manufacturers will be fine but anyone collecting bounties or selling items on an NPC buy order will start to feel the pinch, if they are not already doing so. Considering what you can buy for killing a red cross is so much less now than it was 2 years ago.
It would be nice to have some sort of isk sink to go along with the isk faucet of bounties. L4's have LP rewards to act as an isk sink - but straight ratting doesn't have anything comparable.
Maybe cut down the amount of bounty paid and add faction LP to cover the difference. Not an inflation solution, but an inflation slower-downer.
|

Darvaleth Sigma
213
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 15:13:00 -
[115] - Quote
Surely the price of minerals comes down to how much Miners think their time is worth...? It's just labour costs, the minerals don't cost anything to extract (discounting set-up price for the ship/fit and skills etc.). If people wanted to stop inflation, surely the best way would not be to have CCP externally impose something, but rather have the Player-Driven-Economy sort it by itself. A group of more selfless miners selling for lower than everyone else, so that other miners similarly have to reduce their prices to not lose out?
EDIT: As for bounties, if you changed it so the bounty payout is much less but the drops are much better, wouldn't that go some way to countering inflation...? Instead of generating free money it generates a sellable item. Give a man a match and you warm him for a day.
Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life! |

Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
367
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 15:22:00 -
[116] - Quote
Make faction ammo better in every way than T2
make purchase of faction ammo require T2 ammo insetad of T1
Grats, you jsut created an isk sink without making T2 production useless. |

Stonecrusher Mortlock
University of Caille Gallente Federation
116
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 15:44:00 -
[117] - Quote
So, long as cruisers and frigs stay below 20m ships are cheap, now, we COULD use some more low sec/null sec base level none isk income, and more isk sinks, aka a gate tax or ship up keep for none packaged ships |

Mocam
EVE University Ivy League
259
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 16:15:00 -
[118] - Quote
Darvaleth Sigma wrote:Surely the price of minerals comes down to how much Miners think their time is worth...? It's just labour costs, the minerals don't cost anything to extract (discounting set-up price for the ship/fit and skills etc.). If people wanted to stop inflation, surely the best way would not be to have CCP externally impose something, but rather have the Player-Driven-Economy sort it by itself. A group of more selfless miners selling for lower than everyone else, so that other miners similarly have to reduce their prices to not lose out?
EDIT: As for bounties, if you changed it so the bounty payout is much less but the drops are much better, wouldn't that go some way to countering inflation...? Instead of generating free money it generates a sellable item.
Somewhat true but you have "paths of least resistance" that are followed based upon the terrain.
Think of it more like driving a car - where the road goes, most drive and in the mountains, few will try and drive 'cross-country' with cliffs and towering walls. EVE player's income and expense areas are very much determined by game mechanics.
So yes on the player-driven side but the layout chosen for the paths makes a huge difference for how it can and does work.
"faucets" vs "wealth-transfer" with "sinks" is commonly explained and the balance between these areas is as much how the economy here progresses as anything else.
It's something handy to keep in mind with respect to such discussions. A broader view vs simply looking at it as "players". There are things CCP can do, mechanics wise, to help it out. |

Igor Slovensky
get outa dodge corp
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.16 03:19:00 -
[119] - Quote
ISD Gallifreyan wrote:CCP talked last year about being concerned with inflation, however.
Tons of new isk is being generatrd through NPC bounties and mission rewards. There are not enough isk sinks in the game to combat this.
When your ship explodes, the only isk to leave the game is the isk paid for the manufacturing slot (which is negligible)
Isk sinks currently include War dec costs, expired insurace fees, broker fees, market taxes (not corp tax), office rental, ship repair, locator agents. Etc.
The only way to combat inflation in eve is to increase these sinks or come up with new ones.
2 phrases:
1.) Sandbox 2.) Player driven (controlled)
CCP should not feel the need to do anything but stay out of the way and let the players handle ( or not ) inflation. To do otherwise is to violate the principle of the sandbox and a player controlled economy.
Creating artificial isk sinks is both unnecessary and a violation of the sandbox promise by CCP, by creating isk sinks and the like CCP is deliberately attempting to control what is supposed to be a player driven marketplace.
Just my opinion feel free to have your own.  |

Nexus Day
Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
525
|
Posted - 2013.04.16 03:20:00 -
[120] - Quote
Doc Fury wrote:Three words:
Player Driven Economy.
Three letters and two words:
CCP sells Plex. This thread has so much content it may be 'Thread of the Year' and it is only January.
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