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P3po
Ore Hogz S2N Citizens
22
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 07:58:00 -
[151] - Quote
I would say good advice is to mine TONS of DG right now, while it is available, refine and hold the LO :D |

Danni stark
211
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 09:06:00 -
[152] - Quote
Sir Marksalot wrote:Danni stark wrote:Sir Marksalot wrote:Danni stark wrote:
because i'm lazy, poor, and no fucks are given if they get turned in to wrecks.
next question?
Bad yield that makes a low-income activity even lower. If you don't have the skills (or isk) for an exhumer then fly a covetor at least, jesus. i'm too lazy to even point out the parts of that which are just incorrect. Retrievers mine faster than covetors and hulks? I wasn't aware they changed that in the new patch~ e: Danni stark wrote:25 day old character, 53.7m/hour in strong truesec ice anoms.
just throwing that out there. If this was directed towards what Masumi and I were talking about then I'm just going to go out on a limb here and say I don't think many hulls are made out of ice. But that is more or less the reason I'm taking up mining.
depends on the fit, 3x mlu IIs is bigger than the covetor's hull bonus (but no i won't be pedantic and try and argue a retriever mines more based on that, neither of us are stupid enough to argue that point), but the difference is not sufficient so that it makes a **** of difference unless you have some one hauling for you, at which point it becomes very debatable which one truly mines faster.
you're correct again, they aren't made out of ice. however, i believe a lot of them were built pre... whatever expansion it was that rebalanced the barges. so i don't see the supply running out any time soon, especially if you love the ginger haired bastard child known as the procurer. besides, regular miners will still mine ore between anom spawns. even systems with 3 ice anomalies will have times when there are no ice anomalies active, and the miners will flock to the large grav sites once more. Ice Mining Skill Plan. |

Jita Bloodtear
Bloodtear Labs
268
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 10:07:00 -
[153] - Quote
Let's examine the changes to the supply of ozone in the galaxy.
This is a chart showcasing the changes to ice, and the new ice product yield from the ice anomalies.
The very last chart in that picture shows the relative ozone supply yield from mining in each of these systems before and after the changes. The "New" column is including the x2 mining rate, and the "Old" column is still the 1x mining rate. The mining yields compared in this chart assume that the new ice anomalies respawn instantly. And since they don't the actually supply of ozone will be substantially less than shown.
- Lowsec will yield less than 16.18% the ozone it used to
- Bad Nullsec will yield less than 44.88% the ozone it used to
- Good Nullsec will yield less than 59.27% the ozone it used to
Points of Order:
Ozone and the other ice products will rise in value accordingly and you'll still make >= isk/hr Probably. But the galaxy is still going to be massively shorted on the supply of ozone.
You mine twice as fast so you'll pull in ozone faster False. You used to be able to mine pure ozone by mining pure Dark Glitter. Dark Glitter now constitutes a very small percentage of the new ice fields. And those ice fields are being artificially restricted with 4hr respawn timers that will restrict the supply of ozone even further.
But you get ozone from the other nullsec ices True, but those ices are still far less than what Dark Glitter supplied to the galaxy in ozone before the expansion. Therefore the overall supply of ozone will still decrease substantially. The chart is including all those ozone sources in the calculations.
Why does CCP hate lowsec so much? I don't know. But ice mining in lowsec is about to get a whole lot worse.
Why should we care that ozone is going to be expensive? As an individual miner you don't need to. As a speculator it's a great time to invest in ozone. Increasing the value of ozone dramatically in relation to the other ice products is contrary to the intended design of sec status correlated ice spawns. As you can see here, ozone was meant to be a common product of low-end ices. While high-end ices were meant to favor an ultra rare and presumably expensive strontium. This is obviously not how things turned out. But it'd still be nice if the ices were restored to a tiered value system where Krystallos was actually the best ice. Inverted ozone output of each ice would have this effect. |

Ajunta Thor
Pwn 'N Play Nulli Secunda
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 15:19:00 -
[154] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Ice prices are not currently affected at all by supply, because supply is so high it might as well be infinite.
We're adjusting the supply to have a fairly mild (but noticeable) affect on prices.
Completely unnecessary analogy:
Currently since supply is practically infinite the ice market has no restrictions at all except people's desires to participate in the market.
After the patch we're giving the market some gentle supply restriction, like tying one wrist to the bedpost loosely with soft silk rope. Just enough to make things a bit more exciting for the market, not enough to make a safeword necessary.
Ok i think i see what your getting at here. Like you said ice prices are not effected by supply which makes the market for them basically not a market. Its a play thing for those with crazy enough to mine. By adding in these changes you will essentially begin bleeding off all the bulk ice on the market until it reaches a level in which the market itself becomes a "competitive virtual market" AKA supply comes in line with demand. That is great. I will say however that the changes themselves may be drastic enough to drop supply below if not well below demand thus driving prices through the roof. This will only be found out in time.
In my opinion its almost inevitable that supply will drop below demand simply because the way ice mining is structured right now its nearly impossible to know what the demand for ice is. (CCP could find that out but the amount of work and number crunching required would be too much to ask.)
When supply does drop below demand and we discover that the current amount of available ice is not enough for the pilots of eve would more ice then be added in kind of like the upcoming mineral changes?
To me this change seems like the very first step in a process to fine tune ice mining and make it more relevant. As it is right now there is no competition at all for ice mining. You warp to the belt mine ice dont even got to change your bookmark because its always there. This will make ice mining better fiscally and competitively but its going to need some fine tuning along the way. And unlike other aspects of eve if and when it needs fine tuning it wont be something that can be ignored until there is time for it because a lot of things all over eve could go disastrously wrong very fast and possibly alienate many players should the supply fall off enough. |

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3457
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 07:01:00 -
[155] - Quote
pmchem wrote:And, of course, your statement that ice belts won't be around when people get home is too strong.
If a group of 30 miners can clear an anomaly in half an hour, that means for any time you are playing there is a 1/8 chance that there is still ice available to mine. If you want to harvest ice you will have to be prepared to wait for up to four hours for an anomaly to be available, and even when an anomaly is available you'll be rushing to harvest as much ice as possible before the belt expires.
So expect to see miners fitting for maximum yield, expect to see ganking increase, though I imagine gankers will be just as upset about having to wait four hours for targets to appear.
pmchem wrote:You also discussed in various places the effort that people will have to go through to mine out fields and get them to respawn, like this quote: "an obstacle to harvesting the ice of true value. This will vastly hurt the profitability of nullsec ice miners and discourage them from mining." Yet, we do not know where prices will settle. Given supply (constrained) and demand (growing), it may be likely that the nullsec miners will be happy mining ice of any variant, because over a period of X days their expected value for the aggregate activity may be high. Kinda like ratting and finding faction/officer spawns. Not everything can be a faction spawn.
I fully expect ice prices to rise to the point where it's worth the nullsec miner's time to harvest ice. In fact I'd suggest that ice products will rise in value to the point where more miners will appear in nullsec as combat pilots switch to ice harvesting, at which point the forums will flood with tears about how "mining is boring", leading to CCP adjusting the game play of mining, leading to further increases in mining product prices as the people who previously enjoyed mining simply give up.
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3457
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 07:10:00 -
[156] - Quote
Sir Marksalot wrote:Danni stark wrote:
because i'm lazy, poor, and no fucks are given if they get turned in to wrecks.
next question?
Bad yield that makes a low-income activity even lower. If you don't have the skills (or isk) for an exhumer then fly a covetor at least, jesus.
Why would anyone fly a Covetor or Hulk when a Mackinaw has a far better tank and a huge ore bay meaning fewer trips back to station (with or without an Orca booster in the belt)?
Do you even harvest ice? Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3457
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 07:23:00 -
[157] - Quote
Jita Bloodtear wrote:Please note that these highsec supply numbers are based on the theory that 100% of all highsec ice belts will be mined to completion 5 times a day. I still consider this to be unreasonably idealistic. It implies any highsec ice belt anywhere in existence will only have an average life span of 48 minutes (20hrs spent respawning, 4hrs being mined out 5 times). Due to low population timezones, isolated highsec islands, piracy, ice miner locust swarm response/travel times and the such, the actual highsec supply will probably be 40-60% the numbers presented here.
Here's how it works from a hisec miner's perspective:
- Hisec island or not, you have an ice harvesting fleet in the system which the ice spawns in. That's what alts are for. The anomalies aren't going to be in different systems. There will be no "locust swarm travel time".
- If there is an anomaly present in the system, you undock and mine as much ice as you can before the belt despawns.
- If there isn't an anomaly present, you check another ice system where you already have an ice harvesting fleet.
- Once all the anomalies have been despawned you watch your X constellation mining intel channel for news of a new anomaly appearing, while focussing on your market, manufacturing and beer consuming activities.
Have a look at the fleets harvesting ice today. There are individuals with 20-30 strong ice harvesting fleets. I will be surprised if there are ice anomalies that routinely last longer than 45 minutes. Miners will disperse to find systems where ice anomalies are available for even a fraction of their usual daily play time. The folks who currently harvest while at work will use out of game comms to keep in touch with corp mates who are on during work hours, providing an equivalent to the "X constellation mining intel channel" I mentioned in that list.
There are no low population timezones where the population of ice miners is too low to field 30 high yield mining ships any time an ice anomaly appears. Regardless of timezone, the hisec anomalies will all be mined out well within 48 minutes. Expect to see the shortest lived hisec anomalies being popped in single-digit minutes.
The actual hisec supply will end up being about 99% of the theoretical maximum.
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3457
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 07:42:00 -
[158] - Quote
Sir Marksalot wrote:e: Not to mention that there just isn't currently enough low-ends to do any meaningful production in 0.0 without importing tons. This is getting helped along quite a bit with the next big patch.
Erm... there are plenty of lowends in nullsec, it's just that nullsec miners only want to mine in grav sites, and they pick the two or three most lucrative sites to mine then ignore everything else (i.e.: the "hidden belts"). Mining in belts is a suicide wish. So it's not that there aren't enough low-ends to do meaningful production in nullsec.
The reason lowends are not mined in nullsec is because it's easier to import them as one freighter load of highly compressed minerals, rather than haul 40 freighter loads of lowends from mining systems to manufacturing systems (and that is assuming you can compress or refine the ore at the point of capture). You can verify this for yourself: head to any nullsec belt and run a survey scanner on the veldspar, scordite, pyroxeres and plagioclase. You'll see that there are mountains of the stuff out there which would keep any mining fleet busy for hours. The problem is that it's in belts that anyone can simply warp to without having to scan the system first, and then you have mountains of ore which you can't refine, so you can't do mineral compression. The best you can hope for is rorqual based ore compression which means having a rorqual in the system.
So what it comes down to is that the easy logistics of jump freighting a load of mineral compression modules down from Jita is far, far easier than acquiring those lowends locally. CCP could attempt to address this by making modules take up more volume than the minerals they were created from, which would mean things like the 425mm railgun take up 1500m3 of cargo space instead of 50m3.
While industry is broken, I don't see anyone in nullsec in a big rush to un-break mineral compression. Instead they whine about how hisec industry is too easy.
I have some ideas on how to fix industry in general, though they're not strictly related to ice harvesting. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |

Danni stark
406
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 07:52:00 -
[159] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Sir Marksalot wrote:Danni stark wrote:
because i'm lazy, poor, and no fucks are given if they get turned in to wrecks.
next question?
Bad yield that makes a low-income activity even lower. If you don't have the skills (or isk) for an exhumer then fly a covetor at least, jesus. Why would anyone fly a Covetor or Hulk when a Mackinaw has a far better tank and a huge ore bay meaning fewer trips back to station (with or without an Orca booster in the belt)? Do you even harvest ice?
people probably fly a covetor or a hulk because if they are in a fleet then tank and cargo are both as relevant as a fruit cake is to a venus fly trap plant. Ice Mining Skill Plan. |

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3457
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 07:56:00 -
[160] - Quote
Iosue wrote:i like the concept of depleting ice spawns, but hate the idea of locust swarms in empire. though i spend most of my time in NPC null, having access to hi-sec ice belts helps offset the cost of running my towers. i'd be much more partial to some type of random spawn of the ice belts in hi-sec, so we actually had to explore for them in various systems. this would be much more in line with the theme of exploration as opposed to showing up at the know system and waiting for a timer.
Regardless of whether the ice appears in anomalies or grav sites (which in Odyssey longer exist, all grav sites are "ore site" anomalies as of the Odyssey patch), it's the lack of supply that will lead to "locust swarm" mining. You (just like everyone else) will be competing for a scarce resource. So you can't have your depleting ice spawns and access to the ice on your own schedule.
losue wrote:the mechanism for obtaining this valuable resource will be one of the most dull and unfun activities in game: waiting on timers. instead we should try to make the ice miners do something besides just mine ice. make them look for it or pay someone else to find it for them, as opposed to just waiting around in system for ice to spawn.
I agree that having the ice respawning on a four-hours-to-the-second clockwork timer will make life frustrating for people who don't start their stopwatches the moment the previous belt despawns. Having the ore site anomalies be exploration/discovery/whatever sites instead, with an average respawn time of about 4 hours would be much more satisfying, especially if those sites spawned somewhere in the constellation, not always the same system. But you will still get locust swarms, and there will always someone else who gets there first.
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
|

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3457
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 07:59:00 -
[161] - Quote
Danni stark wrote:people probably fly a covetor or a hulk because if they are in a fleet then tank and cargo are both as relevant as a fruit cake is to a venus fly trap plant.
Even a hulk has a 14s align time. So either you're flying aligned to a celestial and retargeting ice as you move past the previous block, or you get ganked.
Try it sometime before Odyssey. Head out to an ice field with a max-yield Hulk fitted with Ice Harvester IIs 
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3457
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 08:18:00 -
[162] - Quote
mynnna wrote:There's also the point pmchem made. As CCP does more and more to de-emphasize top down (eg moon) income as a source of alliance income in the future, bottom up income, including mining taxes, will be more and more important. Right now buffing the Rorqual would be a means to evading those taxes more easily, thanks to how taxation works. Now if we want to discuss changing how mining taxes are collected (say, automatically at point of collection; I'm sure we can come up with a reasonable lore based explanation), then I'd be happy to talk about and advocate for compression buffs.
Rather than collecting product or fees, what about a simple report of units extracted (you know, just like we already have in the fleet loot report which is so easily exported to GǪ oh nevermind)? This then gets handled by the treaty system to be converted into an ISK or percentage, which is then contracted back to the local baron as part of the periodic repeating tithe.
What's that you say? The treaty system was never finished or implemented? Oh snap!
mynnna wrote:As to the respawn timer, there should be about 650 nullsec anomalies by my count, compared to the ~100 that will exist in highsec. Those ~100 will supply 80% of the game's ice, which means nullsec would be capable of supplying about 500% of the game's ice, even if those belts are only 2500 block belts. That number goes higher, of course, if the block count climbs. So, I don't really see the need for them to respawn instantly.
It would be nice if the respawn timer was "about four hours" instead of "exactly 14400 seconds".
mynna wrote:Jita Bloodtear wrote:The nullsec ore belts actually do have massive timezone imbalance issues because fresh belts will only spawn during downtime. Which means that the euro players are able to consume all the valuable ores long before any other timezone even wakes up. During the question answer session at fanfest it was stated that the new nullsec ice anoms will maintain their current variety of ice types. The demo from the presentation showed an ice anom as "Pristine White Glaze field" rather than a more generic "Medium Ice Field" which implied a homogeneous assortment of ice inside. But many quotes since indicate that each ice anom will contain many mixed types of ice ( "The best ice anoms found in the lowest truesec in all areas of space will contain all three non-racial ice types.") The timezone imbalance in the ore sites is a good point here.
The obvious solution is to move belts to anomalies too.
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3457
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 08:23:00 -
[163] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:The oversupply of ice is so significant that to bring supplies into some kind of balance through reduced refine yields we would need to make each block of ice yield less than 1/2 of a unit of isotopes.
By "oversupply" do you mean "amount of ice available to be mined" or "amount of ice actually mined"? Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3457
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 08:28:00 -
[164] - Quote
Iosue wrote:great analysis. i only have a couple of questions regarding your assumptions. can you elaborate on two factors that might mitigate the need for rorqual compression altogether? 1) the use of station refining in null and 2) the use of POS refining in null. I'm really interested in 2. since my understanding is that POSs can refine ice at 100% with the proper chars and equipment. thanks.
POS refineries are capped at 75% regardless of skills and implants. They also take 3 hours to refine 200,000m3 (i.e.: 67k m3/hr, compared to 45k m3/hr from a single strip miner module), and can only handle one type of ore at a time.
Fixing POS refineries would go some way to helping build the "farms and fields" that certain nullsec folks were talking about during CSM6. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |

Carniflex
StarHunt Intrepid Crossing
89
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 09:01:00 -
[165] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Iosue wrote:great analysis. i only have a couple of questions regarding your assumptions. can you elaborate on two factors that might mitigate the need for rorqual compression altogether? 1) the use of station refining in null and 2) the use of POS refining in null. I'm really interested in 2. since my understanding is that POSs can refine ice at 100% with the proper chars and equipment. thanks. POS refineries are capped at 75% regardless of skills and implants. They also take 3 hours to refine 200,000m3 (i.e.: 67k m3/hr, compared to 45k m3/hr from a single strip miner module), and can only handle one type of ore at a time. Oh, and with a POS refinery oniine, you pretty much have to take everything else at the POS offline. Fixing POS refineries would go some way to helping build the "farms and fields" that certain nullsec folks were talking about during CSM6.
Last I looked (which was a long trime ago) POS refinery refined ICE at 100 %, even the crappy 35% yield one so you dont need the 75% refinery for ice. As far as ORE goes yeah, its pretty much pointless to refine ORE in a POS refinery unless you are particularly desperate (in a wormhole without Roqual, perhaps).
So if your desire is to refine only and only ICE you are better off with these small refineries. For the same amount of resources as the large one you can get 5.71 of the small ones online giving you ~228 k m3 of space against 200k in the large one, plus your refine cykle time is 3600s vs the 10800s in the large. So they are a lot better for ICE refining if that is the only thing you want to do with them.
Ofc in reality you would want to have about 6 of them online for each large refinery you have at slightly higher CPU cost. You cant anchor only 0.71 of the refinery after all ;) With the rather short online times on these things you can keep em offline when not in use. Hell you can even unachor them and hide them away if you are ninja-refining without your landlord knowing about it.
Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... *THWONK!* GOT the bastard. |

Danni stark
407
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 09:07:00 -
[166] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Danni stark wrote:people probably fly a covetor or a hulk because if they are in a fleet then tank and cargo are both as relevant as a fruit cake is to a venus fly trap plant. Even a hulk has a 14s align time. So either you're flying aligned to a celestial and retargeting ice as you move past the previous block, or you get ganked. Try it sometime before Odyssey. Head out to an ice field with a max-yield Hulk fitted with Ice Harvester IIs 
i'm lazy as ****, so i mine with retrievers. also i can't be bothered to completely refit my hulk because for some ****** up reason ice modules use more CPU than ore ones so your already tight fitting tank has to be completely refit as well as your mining modules.
also i went and suicide ganked a miner the other day because i wondered just how hard it would be... turns out, it's easier than i thought. after the kill i thought "surely concord should be here by now?" it was rather eye opening so there's definitely no way i'd sit an already paper thin hulk, with a reduced capacity to tank due to being ice fit in a belt where people are likely to come looking for targets.
besides most hulks will have a fleet booster, is that 14 seconds with the skirmish warfare agility bonus? Ice Mining Skill Plan. |

Felicity Love
STARKRAFT Joint Venture Conglomerate
643
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 13:12:00 -
[167] - Quote
Christ, I love this game.
The misinformation and propaganda spins are always amusing; soooooooooo....
EVERYBODY buy ICE because it's obvious the "Can't Be Arsed" factor is about to soar after the Oddysey arrives. 
Proud Beta Tester for "Bumping Uglies for Dummies" |

Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E. Aegis Solaris
1904
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 18:30:00 -
[168] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:You make an excellent point about the non-racial ices Jita, and it's something we're keeping in mind as we work on the composition of the 0.0 ice belts. One quick note I want to respond to however: Jita Bloodtear wrote: We should instead be rebalancing the refined product yield for each type of ice. If the supply of highsec isotopes is too high then the rebalance should reflect this by lowering the refined supply slightly
The oversupply of ice is so significant that to bring supplies into some kind of balance through reduced refine yields we would need to make each block of ice yield less than 1/2 of a unit of isotopes. I find it quite hard to believe that ice miners are mining 600 times more ice than the game needs. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |

Huttan Funaila
Terminal Radioactivity
185
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 23:14:00 -
[169] - Quote
Iosue wrote: hmm, i only counted 25 systems yesterday with 30 ice fields in caldari hi-sec. this includes: the forge, the citadel, black rise and lonetrek. did i miss a region? From the static data dump, I find 28 ice belts in Caldari high sec.
Quote:SELECT MR.regionName, md.itemName, md.[security] AS TrueSec, CASE WHEN md.[security] <=0.0 THEN 'NullSec' WHEN md.[security] <0.5 THEN 'LowSec' ELSE 'HighSec' END AS SystemLevel, CF.factionName FROM mapDenormalize AS md INNER JOIN invTypes AS it ON md.typeID=it.typeID INNER JOIN mapRegions AS MR on MR.regionID = md.regionID LEFT JOIN chrFactions AS CF ON MR.factionID = CF.factionID WHERE it.typeID = 17774 -- This is Ice Field AND factionName = 'Caldari State' AND md.[security] >=0.5 ORDER BY regionName,itemName
For a cumulative number of Ice Fields/Belts:
Quote:WITH Cumulative AS ( SELECT md.itemName, CASE WHEN md.[security] <=0.0 THEN 'Null' WHEN md.[security] <=0.5 THEN 'Low' ELSE 'High' END AS SystemLevel FROM mapDenormalize AS md INNER JOIN invTypes AS it ON md.typeID=it.typeID WHERE it.typeID = 17774 -- This is Ice Field )
SELECT SystemLevel, COUNT(itemName) AS NumberOfIceBelts FROM Cumulative GROUP BY SystemLevel This yields: High sec - 128 ice belts Low sec - 139 ice belts Null sec - 650 ice belts. |

Serhii Komendant
ARABELLA-RUS
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 17:24:00 -
[170] - Quote
In short 0.0 alliances get a shitload of dirt cheap workforce cause Highsec mining will stop being profitable, even less than lvl 2-3 agents and miners will be forced to join 0.0 alliances one way or another.
What were they thinking? Even distribution of resources? Get us rare ores in Highsec then. We will mine ours to our hearts content and leave 0.0 belts to 0.0 goats. |
|

Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
656
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 19:57:00 -
[171] - Quote
Jita Bloodtear wrote:Firstly, the various ores are going to refine into a different set of minerals than they currently do ( the details can be found here). The goal of this was to provide more low-end minerals (tritanium, pyerite, and mexallon) to nullsec to help with local manufacturing. Right now all major nullsec manufacturing jobs have to import these low-end minerals from empire using compression techniques (425mm railguns, 800mm artillery, etc). This illustrates my biggest issue. Why are these low end minerals such a shortage in null sec? Null sec static belts have all the low end ores, in much larger rocks than any high sec system. There is an abundance of massive Veldspar rocks in Null sec. Some will argue that nobody wants to mine the low end ores while high end ores are available. And this is true to an extent, but mining these low end ores would still be more efficient that compression minerals in high sec and jumping them out.
I believe based on over 2 years of living in null sec as a miner, that the real reason is the static belts are just to dangerous to mine in. Any passing hostile or neutral can warp into the belt and kill you before you have time to react. The hidden belts however take a little longer to find, this gives the miners time to GTFO.
With the odyssey expansion the hidden belts are now no more secure than the static belts. As I have said dozens of times, this WILL be a problem. |

Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
656
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 20:03:00 -
[172] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Danni stark wrote:people probably fly a covetor or a hulk because if they are in a fleet then tank and cargo are both as relevant as a fruit cake is to a venus fly trap plant. Even a hulk has a 14s align time. So either you're flying aligned to a celestial and retargeting ice as you move past the previous block, or you get ganked. Try it sometime before Odyssey. Head out to an ice field with a max-yield Hulk fitted with Ice Harvester IIs  A max yield HULK can still have well over 20k ehp. A MAX dps Talos can only do 16,000 damage before CONCORD shows up. A MAX damage Catayst can do at best about 8,000 damage before CONCORD shows up.
Before the mining ship buff you could gank a max yield hulk with a single catayst, now you need 3-4 catalysts or 2 talos. Ganking miners costs much more than it used to. |

xCassiopiax
Naari LLC
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 23:46:00 -
[173] - Quote
IrJosy wrote:Here at goonswarm we try to make hi-sec tears as much as possible. I fear ccp fozzie has bested us this time though.
Don't worry, with 200+ R64 Moons getting seeded in low & Null CFC and the rest will be able to afford the jump fuel price increase 
|

Danni stark
432
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 23:50:00 -
[174] - Quote
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:A max yield HULK can still have well over 20k ehp. A MAX dps Talos can only do 16,000 damage before CONCORD shows up. A MAX damage Catayst can do at best about 8,000 damage before CONCORD shows up.
Before the mining ship buff you could gank a max yield hulk with a single catayst, now you need 3-4 catalysts or 2 talos. Ganking miners costs much more than it used to.
please show me this 20k ehp fit, i'm curious to see it.
also a talos puts out over 1.5k dps, at ~20 seconds concord response time in 0.5 that's 30k of damage. that'll melt your 20k ehp hulk before concord is even there (and i'm still skeptical about this max yield 20k ehp hulk). Ice Mining Skill Plan. |

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3548
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 02:13:00 -
[175] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:The oversupply of ice is so significant that to bring supplies into some kind of balance through reduced refine yields we would need to make each block of ice yield less than 1/2 of a unit of isotopes. I find it quite hard to believe that ice miners are mining 600 times more ice than the game needs.
CCP Fozzie does indeed appear to be conflating "amount present and available to be harvested" with "amount actually harvested". Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |

xCassiopiax
Naari LLC
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 11:59:00 -
[176] - Quote
Nice assessment Bloodtear, pretty much agree, also the mistake of assuming low sec ice will be mined, part of Fozzie's fuzzy math. As someone whom has mined ice forever i found that laughable at best. But i commend Fozzie;s noble attempt to fix the ice problem. |

Sir Marksalot
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
496
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 15:01:00 -
[177] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Danni stark wrote:people probably fly a covetor or a hulk because if they are in a fleet then tank and cargo are both as relevant as a fruit cake is to a venus fly trap plant. Even a hulk has a 14s align time. So either you're flying aligned to a celestial and retargeting ice as you move past the previous block, or you get ganked. Try it sometime before Odyssey. Head out to an ice field with a max-yield Hulk fitted with Ice Harvester IIs 
This may come as a shock to you, but it takes longer than 14s to jump in, scan, align, warp, and land. |

Sir Marksalot
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
496
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 15:06:00 -
[178] - Quote
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:Jita Bloodtear wrote:Firstly, the various ores are going to refine into a different set of minerals than they currently do ( the details can be found here). The goal of this was to provide more low-end minerals (tritanium, pyerite, and mexallon) to nullsec to help with local manufacturing. Right now all major nullsec manufacturing jobs have to import these low-end minerals from empire using compression techniques (425mm railguns, 800mm artillery, etc). This illustrates my biggest issue. Why are these low end minerals such a shortage in null sec? Null sec static belts have all the low end ores, in much larger rocks than any high sec system. There is an abundance of massive Veldspar rocks in Null sec. Some will argue that nobody wants to mine the low end ores while high end ores are available. And this is true to an extent, but mining these low end ores would still be more efficient that compression minerals in high sec and jumping them out. I believe based on over 2 years of living in null sec as a miner, that the real reason is the static belts are just to dangerous to mine in. Any passing hostile or neutral can warp into the belt and kill you before you have time to react. The hidden belts however take a little longer to find, this gives the miners time to GTFO. With the odyssey expansion the hidden belts are now no more secure than the static belts. As I have said dozens of times, this WILL be a problem.
You do realize that rocks aren't infinite, right? They become depleted and disappear.
http://i.imgur.com/GhCGzNV.jpg
tip: As much as I like the change, low ends are still a bit low relative to the amount of high ends mined. |

Anti-social Tendencies
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
17
|
Posted - 2013.06.03 17:30:00 -
[179] - Quote
Bugsy VanHalen wrote: A max yield HULK can still have well over 20k ehp. A MAX dps Talos can only do 16,000 damage before CONCORD shows up. A MAX damage Catayst can do at best about 8,000 damage before CONCORD shows up.
I think your math is wrong. A Max yield Hulk, (fit for Ore, not ice), won't do "well over 20k EHP".
"Patience: n, a minor form of despair, disguised as a virtue." - AMBROSE PIERCE |

Kelmurdoch
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
3
|
Posted - 2013.06.03 19:44:00 -
[180] - Quote
Has anyone else read the patch notes with a raised eyebrow?
Quote: The composition of these anomalies will be as follows:
Highsec
2500 units of standard racial ice.
Lowsec
3000 units of standard racial ice. 400 units of Glare Crust.
Nullsec with weak truesec (0.0 to -0.5)
3000 units of improved racial ice. 400 units of Glare Crust. 500 units of Dak Glitter. 200 units of Gelidus.
Nullsec with strong truesec (-0.5 to -1.0)
3500 units of improved racial ice. 400 units of Glare Crust. 200 units of Gelidus. 250 units of Krystallos
I hope the lack of Dark Glitter in strong truesec belts is an oversight. Previous notes indicated 1000 blocks/beltspawn. |
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