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Jita Bloodtear
Bloodtear Labs
186
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Posted - 2013.05.01 07:26:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'm the author of the nullsec sov mining guide (which you can find here). This thread is going to present data relevant to nullsec mining post-Odyssey.
Firstly, the various ores are going to refine into a different set of minerals than they currently do (the details can be found here). The goal of this was to provide more low-end minerals (tritanium, pyerite, and mexallon) to nullsec to help with local manufacturing. Right now all major nullsec manufacturing jobs have to import these low-end minerals from empire using compression techniques (425mm railguns, 800mm artillery, etc).
Since my expertise is in the nullsec mining belts, here are the stats on the current supply of minerals from the belts today, and what they will supply after the expansion. You'll note that the low-end mineral supply to nullsec has increased by a factor of 10. Comparing the isk yields/hr is meaningless, but here it is anyways.
Manufacturing was originally planned for mineral consumption ratios of 1x/4x/16x/64x for mega/zydr/nocx etc. You will see this reflected in the mineral requirements for BPOs, and the global consumption in Eve is close to this ratio even today. Local manufacture is hence dependent on having a balanced supply of minerals in these 4^n ratios (i.e. if you have 64mil tritanium you'll need around 8mil pyerite). Since tritanium is the traditional nullsec manufacturing bottleneck I've decided to balance the supply relative to how much tritanium you can pull out of the first three hidden belts. As you can see, post-Odyssey nullsec will be much more balanced in terms of minerals that can be used for local construction. You are no longer pulling up 131x more megacyte than you can possibly use.
Analysis of changes: - The new ore compositions will create a better balance of manufacturable minerals - Slightly more mexallon is needed |
Jita Bloodtear
Bloodtear Labs
186
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Posted - 2013.05.01 07:26:00 -
[2] - Quote
Reserved |
l0rd carlos
Friends Of Harassment
407
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Posted - 2013.05.01 09:43:00 -
[3] - Quote
Why should the Rorqual get better in compression? Isn't the whole point of those changes that the minerals/ores/ice should be used localy rather then shipping _everything_ to jita?
Same with HS Ice belt, those are not there for **** of botters, the change is made so people in 0.0 start mining it more for their local demand. German blog about smallscale lowsec pvp: http://friendsofharassment.wordpress.com |
Jita Bloodtear
Bloodtear Labs
194
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Posted - 2013.05.01 10:12:00 -
[4] - Quote
l0rd carlos wrote:Why should the Rorqual get better in compression? Isn't the whole point of those changes that the minerals/ores/ice should be used localy rather then shipping _everything_ to jita?
Same with HS Ice belt, those are not there for **** of botters, the change is made so people in 0.0 start mining it more for their local demand. While those sentiments are romantic in the eyes of CCP, the realities of the game do not support those ideals.
- Highsec only contains racial ice, which contains 300 racial isotopes, 50 heavy water, 25 ozone, and 1 strontium. Heavy water is not used in much besides construction of fuel blocks for towers or rorqual siege cycles. The construction of these fuel blocks requires an equal amount of ozone to match the heavy water. Since the racial ice contains 2:1 HW:ozone this creates a large imbalance that demands the import of ozone from nullsec. Dark Glitter produces 1000 ozone and 500 HW per block, vs the 25 and 50 per block in highsec. In this way the nullsec ices are the only thing that provides enough ozone to highsec to function properly. Thus it's mandatory for nullsec ices to be shipped to highsec.
The only way to effectively ship the nullsec blocks to empire is via compression. Therefore the rorqual ice compression speed needs to be increased to enable this mandatory activity. If they want nullsec ice miners, this needs to happen.
- Selling locally is also a nice idea, but utterly fails in practice. Nullsec ice fields only contain a single type of racial ice, yielding only a single type of faction isotope. This isotope could be sold locally, but fuel for the other 3 races still have to be imported by necessity. Thus, even at best you're still left importing 75% of your isotopes from highsec.
- My point about the highsec ice belts was that the proposed changes are catering to the botting community more so, by making it impossible for real players to find the leftover scraps during their primetime thanks to the bots having cleared everything out. The bots are quite happy mining during all other hours after the players ragequit in frustration.
- Local consumption of minerals is completely valid. My only gripes are with the ice changes right now.
For these reasons it's completely impossible to break the ties between highsec and nullsec. The changes to the game should understand and support these realities |
Danni stark
57
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 10:20:00 -
[5] - Quote
l0rd carlos wrote:Why should the Rorqual get better in compression? Isn't the whole point of those changes that the minerals/ores/ice should be used localy rather then shipping _everything_ to jita?
high sec cannot supply 100% of null sec's isotopes, let alone high sec on top of that. therefore ice isn't being jumped to jita, at all. it's being umped FROM jita, and it'll be refined and in jfs and totally irrelevant. OP only wants increased compression speed on ice, which is perfectly reasonable. Yay, this account hasn't had it's signature banned. or it's account, if you're reading this. |
Thorn Galen
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
1116
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 11:16:00 -
[6] - Quote
@Jita Bloodtear
Excellent analysis and comments, thank you very much.
o7
Personnel Division Director --áBene Gesserit Chapterhouse
"The universe is an ancient desert, a vast wasteland with only occasional habitable planets as oases. We Fremen, comfortable with deserts, shall now venture into another." - STILGAR, From the Sietch to the Stars. |
Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor Black Core Alliance
923
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 11:22:00 -
[7] - Quote
Null sec ice needs to be drastically increased. Everything will grind to a halt if we have to constantly run around to find ice products all day long. T2 stands to take a huge hit from this since moon mining requires a tower to do.
Compression times are far too long for ice. Anyone that's ever done it knows this and it's not really a point of argument. Maximze your Industry Potential! - Get EVE Isk per Hour! |
Karak Bol
Crepuscular
76
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 12:15:00 -
[8] - Quote
Well, the Rorqual can surely compress the leftover ice in the 4 h downtime, can-¦t it? |
Peter Tjordenskiold
88
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Posted - 2013.05.01 12:52:00 -
[9] - Quote
l0rd carlos wrote:Why should the Rorqual get better in compression? Isn't the whole point of those changes that the minerals/ores/ice should be used localy rather then shipping _everything_ to jita?
Same with HS Ice belt, those are not there to **** of botters, the change is made so people in 0.0 start mining it more for their local demand.
Read the forums and dont make silly assumptions |
Peter Tjordenskiold
88
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Posted - 2013.05.01 12:56:00 -
[10] - Quote
Karak Bol wrote:Well, the Rorqual can surely compress the leftover ice in the 4 h downtime, can-¦t it?
You have more than one system with ice in every region. ICE miners have to travel around to get the needed amounts. With todays rorqual it isnt possible to compresse the necessary amounts. |
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Wibla
Tactical Narcotics Team
129
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 13:41:00 -
[11] - Quote
How much ice will the nullsec ice belts contain, though?
Also mixing all the non-racial ice types in nullsec anoms will mean that people will just let the anoms wither on the vine until they respawn with the ice they want to mine. |
ComDS
Eve Engineering Authority Eve Engineering
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 14:39:00 -
[12] - Quote
Good job to the OP for a very thoughtful analysis.
The Ice changes cater to bots not hinder them. Making things harder on humans make it easier on bots.
The 4 hour downtime are insufferable by certain ice mining cultures. Casual mining is effectively dead with this release, but maybe that is the point?
Those of you that say "just travel" obviously have never played dodge ball. |
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
15
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Posted - 2013.05.01 14:48:00 -
[13] - Quote
Your analysis is a variant on the usual 'I want more yield' request as far as I can see. Regarding your comment that we should be looking to disconnect the economies in high & nul sec is daft when CCP is looking to link DUST and EVE together into an amazing web.
The prices of high sec obtainable minerals are currently falling and the price of ice products are increasing. These are both both correct statements but as your analysis states miners want to mine whatever makes the best ISK. Most miners mine to make ISK so nul sec miners will continue to target rocks heavy with Morphite, Megacyte, Zydrine, & Nocxium. The Spod will still be last on their list if mined at all. Once the changes come in on June 4th high sec miners will look to mine ice only as much as possible as the prices for ice products will have risen further by then. As a result of all of this the prices for high sec obtainable minerals will rise back up and maybe even go above the previous higher price levels. |
ngaly
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
16
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 15:22:00 -
[14] - Quote
Jita Bloodtear wrote:- High-end mineral prices will rise slightly due to increased local manufacturing. This is happening.
ThatGÇÖs not true. Currently null-sec can supply like 1% of the total low-end mineral demand. If miners donGÇÖt change their behavior null-sec can supply like 10% of the total low-end mineral demand after the patch resulting in a 9% oversupply of low-end minerals and a stable supply of high-end minerals. This would cause low-end mineral prices to decrease and high-end mineral prices to remain stable.
However, the patch will make it vastly more profitable to mine in null-sec. Not just because the increased ISK/hour of high-end ore but also because of outpost changes, reduced logistic efforts to get low-end minerals and because ice mining is now a nice little side activity that provides you with a high profit mining option once every few hours. That means some player will definitely switch from mining in high-sec to mining in null-sec. If 10% of high-sec miners move to null-sec the total supply of low-end minerals will equal demand but the supply of high end minerals will exceed demand by 100%. This would totally crash high end mineral prices while low end mineral prices would remain stable.
All in all this means low-end and high-end mineral prices will both decrease. The significance of the price decrease depends on how many high-sec miners will move to null-sec. |
Moon Dogg
Oberon Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 16:03:00 -
[15] - Quote
So basically we should expect the following for null-sec ice mining? - Ice miner scans for ice anomaly - Find anomaly in system x - Grabs barge/exhumer and starts mining for 4 hours or less before it is exhausted - Go fleet up for pvp, rat, exploration sites, P.I., etc instead, or log
That's easy to grasp/accept, I suppose. Now, If the ice anomaly ship/fleet isn't in your system you: - Don't bother mining until an ice anomaly shows up in your system [or] - Fly your ship(s) to the system with an ice anomaly - If the number of jumps to reach system x is excessive, grab cyno and carriers to run fleet to system x - Now jump Rorqual to system x, because you can't use gates to just run to the systems two jumps over [or] - Use an Orca, slowboating it to the system or use a command ship/T3 booster instead, sacrificing bonuses for mobility
This would make ice mining much closer to what someone mining ore gravimetric sites in null would experience, correct?
Of course, if you choose to mine ore in null sec, you can eventually hope to get the Giant Spodumain Rock o' Doom, set up shop, and mine happily for a day or two before it pops :-P
Would it be bad to have ice fields merely deplete and respawn, like current asteroid belts do? And then perhaps offer ice sites that could be scanned out? Or be have ice be part of what can be generated through the industry upgrading that can be done to null systems? Burn the land, boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me. |
Iosue
Black Sky Hipsters
178
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 16:12:00 -
[16] - Quote
Jita Bloodtear wrote:l0rd carlos wrote:Why should the Rorqual get better in compression? Isn't the whole point of those changes that the minerals/ores/ice should be used localy rather then shipping _everything_ to jita?
Same with HS Ice belt, those are not there for **** of botters, the change is made so people in 0.0 start mining it more for their local demand. While those sentiments are romantic in the eyes of CCP, the realities of the game do not support those ideals.
- Highsec only contains racial ice, which contains 300 racial isotopes, 50 heavy water, 25 ozone, and 1 strontium. Heavy water is not used in much besides construction of fuel blocks for towers or rorqual siege cycles. The construction of these fuel blocks requires an equal amount of ozone to match the heavy water. Since the racial ice contains 2:1 HW:ozone this creates a large imbalance that demands the import of ozone from nullsec. Dark Glitter produces 1000 ozone and 500 HW per block, vs the 25 and 50 per block in highsec. In this way the nullsec ices are the only thing that provides enough ozone to highsec to function properly. Thus it's mandatory for nullsec ices to be shipped to highsec.
The only way to effectively ship the nullsec blocks to empire is via compression. Therefore the rorqual ice compression speed needs to be increased to enable this mandatory activity. If they want nullsec ice miners, this needs to happen.
- Selling locally is also a nice idea, but utterly fails in practice. Nullsec ice fields only contain a single type of racial ice, yielding only a single type of faction isotope. This isotope could be sold locally, but fuel for the other 3 races still have to be imported by necessity. Thus, even at best you're still left importing 75% of your isotopes from highsec.
- My point about the highsec ice belts was that the proposed changes are catering to the botting community more so, by making it impossible for real players to find the leftover scraps during their primetime thanks to the bots having cleared everything out. The bots are quite happy mining during all other hours after the players ragequit in frustration.
- Local consumption of minerals is completely valid. My only gripes are with the ice changes right now.
For these reasons it's completely impossible to break the ties between highsec and nullsec. The changes to the game should understand and support these realities
great analysis. i only have a couple of questions regarding your assumptions. can you elaborate on two factors that might mitigate the need for rorqual compression altogether? 1) the use of station refining in null and 2) the use of POS refining in null. I'm really interested in 2. since my understanding is that POSs can refine ice at 100% with the proper chars and equipment. thanks. |
Xavier Thorm
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
49
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 16:19:00 -
[17] - Quote
Jita Bloodtear wrote:l0rd carlos wrote:Why should the Rorqual get better in compression? Isn't the whole point of those changes that the minerals/ores/ice should be used localy rather then shipping _everything_ to jita?
Same with HS Ice belt, those are not there for **** of botters, the change is made so people in 0.0 start mining it more for their local demand. While those sentiments are romantic in the eyes of CCP, the realities of the game do not support those ideals.
- Highsec only contains racial ice, which contains 300 racial isotopes, 50 heavy water, 25 ozone, and 1 strontium. Heavy water is not used in much besides construction of fuel blocks for towers or rorqual siege cycles. The construction of these fuel blocks requires an equal amount of ozone to match the heavy water. Since the racial ice contains 2:1 HW:ozone this creates a large imbalance that demands the import of ozone from nullsec. Dark Glitter produces 1000 ozone and 500 HW per block, vs the 25 and 50 per block in highsec. In this way the nullsec ices are the only thing that provides enough ozone to highsec to function properly. Thus it's mandatory for nullsec ices to be shipped to highsec.
The only way to effectively ship the nullsec blocks to empire is via compression. Therefore the rorqual ice compression speed needs to be increased to enable this mandatory activity. If they want nullsec ice miners, this needs to happen.
- Selling locally is also a nice idea, but utterly fails in practice. Nullsec ice fields only contain a single type of racial ice, yielding only a single type of faction isotope. This isotope could be sold locally, but fuel for the other 3 races still have to be imported by necessity. Thus, even at best you're still left importing 75% of your isotopes from highsec.
- My point about the highsec ice belts was that the proposed changes are catering to the botting community more so, by making it impossible for real players to find the leftover scraps during their primetime thanks to the bots having cleared everything out. The bots are quite happy mining during all other hours after the players ragequit in frustration.
- Local consumption of minerals is completely valid. My only gripes are with the ice changes right now.
For these reasons it's completely impossible to break the ties between highsec and nullsec. The changes to the game should understand and support these realities
Emphasis mine.
I really appreciate your posts regarding industry, as I'm not an industrial expert and I feel like I've learned a lot by reading your words. My gut response to the bolded segments, however, is this: Why does hisec have to "function properly"? It seems that what CCP is trying to do with these changes is to shake up the way that hisec and nullsec interact, so maybe a drastic change is just what they want.
I do agree that the removal of hisec ice belts is probably not going to help the botting situation at all, but maybe CCP has some trick up their sleeve that we don't know about yet. |
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
337
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 16:43:00 -
[18] - Quote
Guess I'm lucky I shopped a 2 years supply of fuel blocks at this years low for my large tower. I'll mine some ice leisurely now and then to prolong this period and watch the show.
2 years for CCP to sort out the mess . Remove insurance. |
PotatoOverdose
SONS of LEGION RISE of LEGION
115
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 16:58:00 -
[19] - Quote
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you assuming that there would only be one ice anom active at a time per system?
In null it is not uncommon to have multiple grav sites in a single system. In sov it is possible for an upgraded system to have many respawning anoms simultaneously.
Do we know that each system will have only one respawning ice anom? They could just as easily have two or three, no? |
Elena Thiesant
Sun Micro Systems
304
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 17:08:00 -
[20] - Quote
According to Fozzie, the ice anoms will be found only in systems that used to have static ice belts and there will be as many anoms as there were static ice belts in that system. So systems that currently have 1 static ice belt will have one ice anom that once mined out respawns 4 hours later, systems that had 2 static belts will have 2 ice anoms, etc. |
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Danni stark
69
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 17:14:00 -
[21] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you assuming that there would only be one ice anom active at a time per system?
In null it is not uncommon to have multiple grav sites in a single system. In sov it is possible for an upgraded system to have many respawning anoms simultaneously.
Do we know that each system will have only one respawning ice anom? They could just as easily have two or three, no?
the number of ice anoms will be equal to the number of static belts the system currently has.
which makes a system like osmon in the forge a gold mine, it's going to have 3 anoms. Yay, this account hasn't had it's signature banned. or it's account, if you're reading this. |
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
586
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 18:09:00 -
[22] - Quote
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn wrote:
The prices of high sec obtainable minerals are currently falling and the price of ice products are increasing. These are both both correct statements but as your analysis states miners want to mine whatever makes the best ISK. Most miners mine to make ISK so nul sec miners will continue to target rocks heavy with Morphite, Megacyte, Zydrine, & Nocxium. The Spod will still be last on their list if mined at all. Once the changes come in on June 4th high sec miners will look to mine ice only as much as possible as the prices for ice products will have risen further by then. As a result of all of this the prices for high sec obtainable minerals will rise back up and maybe even go above the previous higher price levels.
I agree with what you say here. But you miss the key factor. Even if low end minerals rise due to high sec miners switching to ICE, the lowe end ores in high sec will not increase in value over the new composition null sec ores.Why? because the changes to the ore was the addition of low end minerals. If the price of low end minerals goes way up, even higher than it was, this will also drive up to price of the null sec ores as they have both low end and high end minerals in them.
Just for example look as the basic null sec mining system. The lowest industry level giving only the small hidden belt. These composition changes have drastically affected these belts. The small belt has to be completely mined out to get it to respawn. You can not just cherry pick the A,B,C's as they are limited and you need to flip the belt to get more A,B,C's to mine. The SPOD has to be mined to flip the belt and get more A,B,C's.
As far as low end minerals go, based on the OP's data, currently a small hidden belt yields a little over 6 million trit, over 1 million pyrite, and about 1 million mexallon. With the changes that jumps to over 91 million trit, over 12 million pyrite, and well over 1 million mexallon. This is not an increase in the volume of ore than needs to be mined, but in the resulting minerals after refining. This is a huge increase for the average null sec miner/industrialist.
To put this in perspective, say a null sec industrial player has 4 accounts. He has his own little corner in the alliance space he lives in, a couple systems in a dead end area protected by his alliance. With his 4 accounts, 3 HULKS and a Roqual he is able to maintain an industry level of 2 easily solo mining with his 4 accounts. With the changes to ore composition is is well worth while to flip the small hidden belts, especially if they are all you have. Previously completely mining out the small hidden belt would not even give enough low end minerals to build a single battleship. but with the changes you get enough trit to build several, pyrite is still a little lean, and mexallon will still be in short supply, but if the industrial player is building ships for his alliance he now only needs 1 jump freighter load of make up materials from high sec where he previously would have needed 3-4 loads.
Titanium was the biggest bottleneck for null sec industry, with the new ore compositions it will be in abundance for the average industrial player. They may still need to bring in bulk materials for capital ship building, but the average industrial player who mines there own minerals tritanium will not be such a problem anymore. |
l0rd carlos
Friends Of Harassment
411
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 18:22:00 -
[23] - Quote
Peter Tjordenskiold wrote:l0rd carlos wrote:Why should the Rorqual get better in compression? Isn't the whole point of those changes that the minerals/ores/ice should be used localy rather then shipping _everything_ to jita?
Same with HS Ice belt, those are not there to **** of botters, the change is made so people in 0.0 start mining it more for their local demand. Read the forums and dont make silly assumptions Vice versa I was asking questions because i don't know much about this matter. German blog about smallscale lowsec pvp: http://friendsofharassment.wordpress.com |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
5652
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 18:40:00 -
[24] - Quote
Thank you very much for your analysis Jita Bloodtear, I'm gonna spend some time considering you perspective and will continue watching this thread.
I'm on vacation today so I'll keep my post short, but I do want to make clear that no aspects of these changes are designed to combat botting. I leave that work to our excellent Team Security and I focus on game systems balance. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
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EvilweaselSA
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
628
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 18:58:00 -
[25] - Quote
I would like to reiterate something I said before: I approve of ice compression being difficult and time-consuming as it increases the ability of nullsec entities to actually tax it. Making it easy to simply compress and jump out ice makes it far less likely that ice will be refined in nullsec stations with a tax, weakening the ability of nullsec entities to fund themselves through taxing local economic activity (instead of things like moons). |
EvilweaselSA
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
628
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 19:00:00 -
[26] - Quote
Also some info on the composition of the null/low ice fields would be handy so we can analyze the changes with those numbers, instead of just the highsec numbers, would be handy. |
Makari Aeron
The Shadow's Of Eve TSOE Consortium
51
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 19:01:00 -
[27] - Quote
My worry is that folks who have racial towers in null that do not line up with the area's racial isotope will incur a cost astronomically higher. I strongly believe that this change in ice (mainly the 4 hour respawn) will kill tower diversity in null, not to mention smaller corporations who want POS production. To me, this change makes it harder for your average joe new player to start up a POS manufacturing endeavor.
I would also highly recommend speeding up rorq compression for ice from 1 block per cycle to 5 blocks per cycle. This would in theory enable a rorqual to keep up with 10 ice miners thus catering to corporate mining ops (and incidentally to those with multiple accounts). CCP RedDawn: Ugly people are just playing life on HARD mode. Personally, I'm playing on an INFERNO difficulty...
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pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
464
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 19:07:00 -
[28] - Quote
Jita Bloodtear wrote:The new ice changes have the effect of turning a relaxing night of mining into frustrating repeated 4hr downtimes - which means players will log out and go play other games. "The high sec anoms contain 2500 units of their racial isotope ice." The estimated time to completion of these belts was given to be around 45 mins for 30 highsec miners. This means for the timezones that people play they'll be able to mine for less than 16% of the time. Friendly group mining with corpmates will become competitively inhibitive and discourage the formation of player industry operations. ...but real players with busy schedules will no longer be able to mine at all when they get home. In short, the 4hr respawn timer on ice belts is not a good idea. Right now a perfect low/nullsec ice miner pulls in 90 blocks/hr. After Odyssey the ice mining yield will double up to 180 blocks/hr. A necessity of low/nullsec ice mining is compressing the ice so you can ship it to empire for sale. Right now the rorqual can compress ore fast enough to keep up with 20 perfect ore miners. But right now it can only compress ice fast enough to keep up with 4 ice miners. After Odyssey the rorqual will ONLY BE ABLE TO KEEP UP WITH 2 ICE MINERS. This is highly detrimental to the goals of shifting ice mining into low/nullsec.
While in general I liked your analysis and certainly respect your opinion, I think your statements about ice are a little too speculative. I think things will not turn out as you predict.
You assume 30 ice miners will be at each highsec belt, and that group mining with corpmates will die out and discourage player industry ops. However, a counter-argument could be made that player cooperation will become only more important, as corpmates scout out different ice belts and then summon aid to mine the ice before other corps can do it. You could even see more wardecs as people try to protect "their turf" from other corps, leading to increased player interaction and cooperation beteween pvp and industry players -- prelude to a corp ready to move to low/nullsec. These are good things. And, of course, your statement that ice belts won't be around when people get home is too strong. In reality, there will be a distribution of outcomes on that front and people may need to interact with friends to find out where the ice is when they get home. What kind of gameplay is it to have a static objective which never changes, never depletes -- can never really be accomplished? Bots aside, this is a great gameplay change.
In nullsec, your rorq point is interesting, but in reality most of the ice mining will be happening in station systems where players can cooperate to haul goods back to station instead of rorq'ing it. You also discussed in various places the effort that people will have to go through to mine out fields and get them to respawn, like this quote: "an obstacle to harvesting the ice of true value. This will vastly hurt the profitability of nullsec ice miners and discourage them from mining." Yet, we do not know where prices will settle. Given supply (constrained) and demand (growing), it may be likely that the nullsec miners will be happy mining ice of any variant, because over a period of X days their expected value for the aggregate activity may be high. Kinda like ratting and finding faction/officer spawns. Not everything can be a faction spawn.
Anyway, I'd like to see how things play out on sisi, or even for a few weeks on TQ, before calling for more ice. |
EvilweaselSA
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
630
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 19:11:00 -
[29] - Quote
Makari Aeron wrote:My worry is that folks who have racial towers in null that do not line up with the area's racial isotope will incur a cost astronomically higher. I disagree, and here's why. Shipping has a fixed m3 cost. For our purposes, we'll use 300m3 (this is what our local shipping service charges for shipments to and from our space to jita now that they've raised their prices to match anticipated fuel costs, so not only does it cover fuel it covers time, effort, and profit). If you're doing it yourself it costs a lot less.
Fuel is .15m3. That means that shipping adds 45 isk to the cost of the fuel to bring it from jita. Even if we assume that isotope was shipped from nullsec to jita, that's an extra 90 isk per isotope. That will matter somewhat (if you're throwing up a ratting tower you'll use the local ice) but is not at all "astronomically higher". |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
1796
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 19:22:00 -
[30] - Quote
High sec has to continue to work because that is where new players start. To bring them into part of the game that's basically broken would cause fewer of them to stay with the game.
A bad way to solve the compression issue: What if you swapped all the POSes for ones that use the ice that you got? Then you do not need to export 75% and import other ice to cover the "out of area" POSes. Yes its a overwhelming thing to do, 1000's of POSes, but it does solve the issue. (Ive been involved with the setup and take down of a few POSes. I know the magnitude of what I'm saying. Also that some POSes just are not that good for some applications). Then you just ship the ozone to high sec.
Somewhere it was stated that low and Null ice fields will be slightly bigger. This implies something much less than your recommendation of 10x.
I foresee blobs of 100 ice miners going from system to system, stripping each belt in just a few minutes. Then locust like, moving to the next. Others log in: No ice. Their only choice: Join the locust blob.
In any event, the amount of ice in high sec can only support about 35% of the ice miners that are currently operating there. The ice just will not spawn fast enough to support more, and the faster miner cycle will cause what does spawn to go away quickly. How many will do other activities? Or just log out? Drop alt accounts? Quit the game? Time will tell.
Here's an idea: 1) Keep the current miner cycle speed, or maybe buff it 25% to 50% 2) Make Null belts all contain the better isotope ice, like Thick Blue Ice, and none of the basic ice. 2a) Low sec could all be the better type too. 3) Make the better isotope ice be twice as good as high sec ice.
I liked your 4^n analysis. I note that the high ends will still be overproduced in Null, giving Null an income source selling it to high sec, and giving industrialists in High a source of those minerals. Ore actually seems to be in good shape from this change. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
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