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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
Emma Royd
Maddled Gommerils
230
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Posted - 2013.05.01 19:26:00 -
[31] - Quote
Surely you don't mean to say that CCP have come up with a half-baked idea without thinking it all the way through? I'm shocked
The rorqual has always struggled to compress ice, it's been mentioned so many times on the forum but nothing changes, and it's so ridiculously easy to change, just change the production time of the blueprints. I know people have them researched for PE, but surely it's not that difficult to change a few figures in a database to reflect the change.
The future of mining in nullsec for ice seems to be very unstable, and the general costs will be rising due to having to ship more ice up from empire, but I guess everyone living in null who uses ice will be in the same situation so there won't be many with the upper hand.
I don't like the 4 hour thing, that's a big mistake, you kill the anom and if you're not a PvP'er or PVE'er you might as well log.
Personally, I've not mined anything for a while, but the thoughts of going into an anomaly with a couple of skiffs and have it die on me in a few minutes because someone else was mining it earlier, and me having to wait 4 hours for another anom to spawn will be too frustrating and I'd probably just give it up as a bad job.
These changes don't make me feel like joining a nullsec corp for the riches they can provide, they have me doubting my future. |
mkint
1012
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Posted - 2013.05.01 19:52:00 -
[32] - Quote
ozone is the new technetium.
wanna have sov? can't, gotta have a supercap, which you can only get if you have sov.
wanna fly *any* cap, or run *any* POS? can't, have to have sov because of prohibitively expensive ice prices.
Sounds like these changes are breaking EVE even more than it already is. Maxim 34: If you're leaving scorch-marks, you need a bigger gun. |
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
974
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 19:53:00 -
[33] - Quote
ICE belts are begining to get gett crowded! So crowded you may want to look into purchasing the ORE Faction ICE harvestors I put up for sale in Jita that increase your range & make bumping that much more difficult!
Also once Odyssy hits & ICE starts depleteing faster then an ice cube in hell these ORE Faction harvetors will give you an edge in fast draining the next ICE slab thats just out of reach to the poor noobs that don't have the boosted range you'll have! An' then [email protected], he come scramblin outta theTerminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system'scrashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children' |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
963
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Posted - 2013.05.01 19:57:00 -
[34] - Quote
Jita Bloodtear wrote:Right now a perfect low/nullsec ice miner pulls in 90 blocks/hr. After Odyssey the ice mining yield will double up to 180 blocks/hr. A necessity of low/nullsec ice mining is compressing the ice so you can ship it to empire for sale. Right now the rorqual can compress ore fast enough to keep up with 20 perfect ore miners. But right now it can only compress ice fast enough to keep up with 4 ice miners. After Odyssey the rorqual will ONLY BE ABLE TO KEEP UP WITH 2 ICE MINERS. This is highly detrimental to the goals of shifting ice mining into low/nullsec. Or you just ship it raw and pass the markup on to the consumer.
There's also the point pmchem made. As CCP does more and more to de-emphasize top down (eg moon) income as a source of alliance income in the future, bottom up income, including mining taxes, will be more and more important. Right now buffing the Rorqual would be a means to evading those taxes more easily, thanks to how taxation works. Now if we want to discuss changing how mining taxes are collected (say, automatically at point of collection; I'm sure we can come up with a reasonable lore based explanation), then I'd be happy to talk about and advocate for compression buffs.
Jita Bloodtear wrote:Comparing the new ice anomalies to the nullsec ore belts. In terms of manhours needed to complete each belt we can see a startling difference in size. Even if CCP upholds the small 2500 ice fields in empire, the nullsec ice fields need to be expanded in size by at least a factor of 4x-8x to remain on par with other nullsec mining activities. An increase in nullsec ice field size would also go a long ways to moving that desired 20% ice mining out to low/nullsec. Likewise, the 4hr respawn timer for low/nullsec ice fields makes little sense because the location you're attempting to throttle is highsec only. I think you're getting ahead of yourself. We don't actually have the details about the belt volumes yet. If it proves to be an issue, I'll make a note of it and bring it up with Fozzie directly
As to the respawn timer, there should be about 650 nullsec anomalies by my count, compared to the ~100 that will exist in highsec. Those ~100 will supply 80% of the game's ice, which means nullsec would be capable of supplying about 500% of the game's ice, even if those belts are only 2500 block belts. That number goes higher, of course, if the block count climbs. So, I don't really see the need for them to respawn instantly.
Jita Bloodtear wrote:The nullsec ore belts actually do have massive timezone imbalance issues because fresh belts will only spawn during downtime. Which means that the euro players are able to consume all the valuable ores long before any other timezone even wakes up. During the question answer session at fanfest it was stated that the new nullsec ice anoms will maintain their current variety of ice types. The demo from the presentation showed an ice anom as "Pristine White Glaze field" rather than a more generic "Medium Ice Field" which implied a homogeneous assortment of ice inside. But many quotes since indicate that each ice anom will contain many mixed types of ice ( "The best ice anoms found in the lowest truesec in all areas of space will contain all three non-racial ice types.") The timezone imbalance in the ore sites is a good point here.
Jita Bloodtear wrote:There are also concerns that nullsec miners will be forced to mine terrible "highsec ice" rather than the nullsec variants, just to force a respawn of that ice belt into something worth more.
Jita Bloodtear wrote:It seems that the intention is to force nullsec miners into mining the racial variants of ice by placing it as an obstacle to harvesting the ice of true value. This will vastly hurt the profitability of nullsec ice miners and discourage them from mining at this greatly increased risk, when they could just mine safely in highsec for the same profit.
Before prices went bonkers a couple months ago, dark glitter looks to have been worth 25-30m/hr, and the racial ices around 10m (with a mackinaw and max boosts.)
At today's prices, that's 16-19m/hr for the racial ices and about 36m/hr for the dark glitter.
That means that post-patch, at today's prices, the racial ices will be in the 32-38m/hr range and the dark glitter will be worth 72m/hr.
So, excuse me while I express absolutely zero sympathy that you will be "forced" to mine something so "terrible" that it will be worth more than dark glitter is now. Your income is going to be considerably higher overall than a highsec ice miner's will be, even if the sites are still only 2500 blocks, so there's no actual risk/reward imbalance between ice. If a risk/reward imbalance exists, its between the highsec ice sites and the nullsec ore sites, but given that the ore sites have 4-8x the volume and respawn instantly, I'd say that the nullsec ore sites still have the competitive edge. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
974
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 20:01:00 -
[35] - Quote
How come you don't have a CSM tag yet? Hurry up & sign that NDA
An' then [email protected], he come scramblin outta theTerminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system'scrashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children' |
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
974
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 20:07:00 -
[36] - Quote
mynnna wrote: That means that post-patch, at today's prices, the racial ices will be in the 32-38m/hr range and the dark glitter will be worth 72m/hr.
It'll be interesting to see how fast these NULL SEC ice fields deplete versus HI SEC fields. Do NULL SEC ICE bears ISBOX like you see in HI SEC with 20 odd ships?
An' then [email protected], he come scramblin outta theTerminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system'scrashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children' |
Mathrin
Synthetic Solution Synthetic Systems
81
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 20:24:00 -
[37] - Quote
You guys need to get away from compression, and exporting to jita. This system is not made for that. The new changes are to encourage local markets independent of highsec trade hubs. Ice isn't supposed to be compressed . It's supposed to be used to manufacture things like fuel blocks to be sold to your alliance and alles in your area. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
964
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 20:28:00 -
[38] - Quote
DarthNefarius wrote:How come you don't have a CSM tag yet? Hurry up & sign that NDA EDIT: HA I just realized I got more likes then a CSM member
Because we haven't officially taken office yet or something. And, I've got 1100 more likes on the other character that I used to post on. And, I've only been posting on this character for a couple of months, so I'd pass you in short order anyway.
So there.
DarthNefarius wrote:mynnna wrote: That means that post-patch, at today's prices, the racial ices will be in the 32-38m/hr range and the dark glitter will be worth 72m/hr.
It'll be interesting to see how fast these NULL SEC ice fields deplete versus HI SEC fields. Do NULL SEC ICE bears ISBOX like you see in HI SEC with 20 odd ships? I know plenty of miners in null multibox just the same way that many in highsec do. How fast the belts deplete will depend on their size. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
5653
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Posted - 2013.05.01 20:49:00 -
[39] - Quote
I hear we're comparing like totals in this thread now so I came running. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
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Callic Veratar
Power of the Phoenix
354
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Posted - 2013.05.01 20:55:00 -
[40] - Quote
pmchem wrote:You assume 30 ice miners will be at each highsec belt, and that group mining with corpmates will die out and discourage player industry ops. However, a counter-argument could be made that player cooperation will become only more important, as corpmates scout out different ice belts and then summon aid to mine the ice before other corps can do it. You could even see more wardecs as people try to protect "their turf" from other corps, leading to increased player interaction and cooperation beteween pvp and industry players -- prelude to a corp ready to move to low/nullsec. These are good things. And, of course, your statement that ice belts won't be around when people get home is too strong. In reality, there will be a distribution of outcomes on that front and people may need to interact with friends to find out where the ice is when they get home. What kind of gameplay is it to have a static objective which never changes, never depletes -- can never really be accomplished? Bots aside, this is a great gameplay change.
In theory, your argument is valid. However, consider what happens when you dec the average highsec player corp. Either, the players keep functioning, business as normal, get blown up, and complain on the forums about being grieved, or they leave the game.
The first option, if it happens enough, results in the second. Many would say that it's a good thing, that if people don't want to interact with others that it's better that they're gone, but I find that to be a dangerous train of logic. It leads to selection of who belongs and tiers of players, discrimination, and stories of a poisonous community. We already have "I love the game but the community...", we don't need game mechanics that support view. DirectX 11, it's not rocket appliance! |
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James Rockwell
Kongsberg Vaapenfabrikk Amarr branch. Sev3rance
0
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Posted - 2013.05.01 20:57:00 -
[41] - Quote
Now that the ice belts are anomalies I vote for them to be redone into comets. So you warp to these comets with the long tail and everything. Comets have been shown to be 10-30km. Or at least an added feature to scan down with probes in all systems for rare ice in these comets, enough for a solo pilot. |
Makari Aeron
The Shadow's Of Eve TSOE Consortium
51
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Posted - 2013.05.01 21:07:00 -
[42] - Quote
A somewhat simple way of negating the crunch for the correct fuel outside of the racial area would be to add the ability to use non-racial isotopes at a penalty of 50% (with a skill that reduces the penalty by 5%/lvl) and /fuel blocks at a penalty of 25%. CCP RedDawn: Ugly people are just playing life on HARD mode. Personally, I'm playing on an INFERNO difficulty...
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Callic Veratar
Power of the Phoenix
354
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Posted - 2013.05.01 21:11:00 -
[43] - Quote
I'm trying to think of a new type of ice that could be introduced to highsec that could pad out the belts so that they last longer. Ideally something that produces a cheap, consumable resource, but I can't think of anything that'd work.
Maybe a new type of cap booster or fuel based propulsion modules? DirectX 11, it's not rocket appliance! |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
966
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 21:17:00 -
[44] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:I hear we're comparing like totals in this thread now so I came running.
There's always a bigger fish. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Partak Cadelanne
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2013.05.01 21:18:00 -
[45] - Quote
What is beyond me is why the current ice mining mechanic is being kept in place. AFK ice mining in high sec might have been tolerable (I wouldn't know as I don't mine), but mining in null sec can't be done AFK on a large scale. So basically you press a button and stare at local for 15 minutes, and repeat this cycle as long as you can endure. Hardly engaging PVE gameplay worthy of a 2013 MMO. Why anyone would put up with that instead of spending time on the more interesting parts of Eve is beyond me. Ratting, while still being boring, at least have some variety. |
Danni stark
71
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Posted - 2013.05.01 21:24:00 -
[46] - Quote
Partak Cadelanne wrote:What is beyond me is why the current ice mining mechanic is being kept in place. AFK ice mining in high sec might have been tolerable (I wouldn't know as I don't mine), but mining in null sec can't be done AFK on a large scale. So basically you press a button and stare at local for 15 minutes, and repeat this cycle as long as you can endure. Hardly engaging PVE gameplay worthy of a 2013 MMO. Why anyone would put up with that instead of spending time on the more interesting parts of Eve is beyond me. Ratting, while still being boring, at least have some variety.
you say that like ice mining uses a unique mechanic that no other activity uses. shame that isn't true.
also mining as a mechanic is perfectly fine. it's also fine that you don't want to do it, plenty of others do. Yay, this account hasn't had it's signature banned. or it's account, if you're reading this. |
Kor'el Izia
24
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Posted - 2013.05.01 21:31:00 -
[47] - Quote
Add a new Infrastructure upgrade that generates ice anoms?
It will be sad to see you go Mynna/corestwo , now who will do the market speculation since you can't leak CSM stuff? |
Sofia Wolf
Ubuntu Inc. The Fourth District
197
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Posted - 2013.05.01 21:32:00 -
[48] - Quote
Ice belt re spawn should not be fixed at 4h but at some random period of time averaging around 4h. That way it is less likely there will be periods where most ice bells in high sec are depleted. If re-spawn remains non randomised we will have period after downtime when all belts are cleared out within hour or so, then 4 hour of nothing for hig sec miners to do, then again hour or so of mining frenzy, followed by another for hours of indolence, and so on. That would suck. So randomising re spawn periods a bit would even out time distribution of ice availability.
Also something should be done about omebr. After this change omber will become by far worst ore, and nobody wants to to mine it even today. Omber needs some love. Jessica Danikov > EVE is your real life. the rest is fantasy. caught in a corporation. no escape from banality. open up yours eyes, peer through pod good and seeeeeee. I'm just a poor pilot, I need no sympathy. because I'm easy scam, easy go, little isk, little know. anyway the solar wind blows... |
Partak Cadelanne
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2013.05.01 21:41:00 -
[49] - Quote
Danni stark wrote:Partak Cadelanne wrote:What is beyond me is why the current ice mining mechanic is being kept in place. AFK ice mining in high sec might have been tolerable (I wouldn't know as I don't mine), but mining in null sec can't be done AFK on a large scale. So basically you press a button and stare at local for 15 minutes, and repeat this cycle as long as you can endure. Hardly engaging PVE gameplay worthy of a 2013 MMO. Why anyone would put up with that instead of spending time on the more interesting parts of Eve is beyond me. Ratting, while still being boring, at least have some variety. you say that like ice mining uses a unique mechanic that no other activity uses. shame that isn't true. also mining as a mechanic is perfectly fine. it's also fine that you don't want to do it, plenty of others do.
My point being that the long cycle times of ice miners makes it mostly a matter of watching local, which isn't great PVE content.
Surely more variety in mining would be good for Eve from a PVE perspective (which arguably is one of Eve's weakest points). |
Mathrin
Synthetic Solution Synthetic Systems
81
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Posted - 2013.05.01 21:43:00 -
[50] - Quote
IIRC ice has no +5% or plus +10%. This should be added and like ore, is effected by truesec. |
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Kor'el Izia
26
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Posted - 2013.05.01 21:50:00 -
[51] - Quote
Mathrin wrote:IIRC ice has no +5% or plus +10%. This should be added and like ore, is effected by truesec. They do appear to have something similiar
Blue Ice vs Thick Blue Ice is almost +50% |
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
976
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 21:54:00 -
[52] - Quote
mynnna wrote:DarthNefarius wrote:[quote=mynnna] stuff
How come you don't have a CSM tag yet? Hurry up & sign that NDA EDIT: HA I just realized I got more likes then a CSM member
Because we haven't officially taken office yet or something. And, I've got 1100 more likes on the other character that I used to post on. And, I've only been posting on this character for a couple of months, so I'd pass you in short order anyway.
So there.
[quote]
Well my ALT does too
When does the official taking of office happen? I thought the Fanfest announcement was it. So is it the first summit? I guess it's within a month of fanfest else Mittens could have escaped the ban kicking him of of CSM8.
An' then [email protected], he come scramblin outta theTerminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system'scrashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children' |
EvilweaselSA
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
634
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Posted - 2013.05.01 21:56:00 -
[53] - Quote
It's nowhere near 50%, and it's the low/null version of the highsec ore
it's about 1/6th better |
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
976
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 22:00:00 -
[54] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:I hear we're comparing like totals in this thread now so I came running.
Like ho'ing? So May Day is a Holiday in Iceland FONZZIE ayeeeeeee? An' then [email protected], he come scramblin outta theTerminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system'scrashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children' |
Taki Natsu
White Raven Industries Mistakes Were Made.
0
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Posted - 2013.05.01 22:29:00 -
[55] - Quote
Thank you for posting Jita Bloodtear... I tried posting some numbers relating to the compression issue in the feedback thread but looks like they got quietly ignored.
Many thanks for getting the ice issue the attention it deserves. |
Kynric
Sky Fighters Talocan United
9
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Posted - 2013.05.01 22:39:00 -
[56] - Quote
The 80% number seems problematic. Is it based on full and instant utilization of all available ice, in practice far less than that will be harvested. Is it really the intent to have people standing around pressing scan anticipating a belt then rushing like mad to remove it?
Also, ice is utilizaed in low and wormholes. Presumablly high sec will supply that ice as null is not known for its trade hubs. How does the ice availability in high compare to that neeed in low+wormhole+high sec?
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Ditra Vorthran
Caldari Imports and Exports
153
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Posted - 2013.05.01 22:41:00 -
[57] - Quote
Ignoring the mining aspect (which the OP did and excellent job covering), I'd like to turn the discussion to logistics and politics.
At some point, the demand of ice products is going to outstrip supply. Combining that with ganks, wardecs, null wars, cloakers, and so on means that the day of reckoning will arrive that much sooner.
So what will happen? Will the 0.0 groups go to war with each other over precious ice resources? Will the big blue donut get even bigger as groups band together to share? Will 0.0 bears come to high sec and 'take over' the high sec ice belts (after all, what's easier, structure grinding or knocking over a bunch of carebeary sand castles?)
We could be looking at a case of not enough fields, and too many farms. "Miners mine so I don't have to." ~Metal Icarus |
Ginger Barbarella
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1288
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 22:47:00 -
[58] - Quote
James Rockwell wrote:Now that the ice belts are anomalies I vote for them to be redone into comets. So you warp to these comets with the long tail and everything. Comets have been shown to be 10-30km. Or at least an added feature to scan down with probes in all systems for rare ice in these comets, enough for a solo pilot.
I'd go with this with one caveat: as the comet deteriorates due to mining, it's trajectory would necessarily shift, the rock shatter, and the risk should be there for a sudden collision between ship and chunk of rock, resulting in ship destruction.
Yeah, that would be kewl (with a "K")... "Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac |
Kor'el Izia
26
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Posted - 2013.05.01 23:14:00 -
[59] - Quote
EvilweaselSA wrote:It's nowhere near 50%, and it's the low/null version of the highsec ore it's about 1/6th better
Heavy water Blue Ice: 50 units Thick Blue Ice: 75 units(+50%)
Liquid Ozone Blue Ice: 25 units Thick Blue Ice: 40 units(+60%)
Strontium Blue Ice: 0 units Thick Blue Ice: 1 unit(+100%)
Oxygen Isotopes Blue Ice: 300 units Thick Blue Ice: 350 units (+16%)
Thick Blue Ice yields on average 56.5% more than Blue Ice.
Yeah the higher yields should naturally be found in low/null. |
IrJosy
Club 1621 Goonswarm Federation
50
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Posted - 2013.05.01 23:15:00 -
[60] - Quote
Here at goonswarm we try to make hi-sec tears as much as possible. I fear ccp fozzie has bested us this time though. |
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