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Magnum III	Posted - 2005.10.03 02:37:00 - [31] If we had true collision in EVE that would mess things up. We need to "Bump" in this game, for one thing that I can think of is every time we bumped someone it would cause damage and Concord would blow us up. Elite whatever was a single player game and EVE is an Online multiple player game, EVE is good to go as for a Physics, I'm sure some different things could be tried but it should not be like Elite any version.
Telekon	Posted - 2005.10.03 02:44:00 - [32] Anyone remember in Elite (not Frontier) that the frog planets had the best prices for skin lotion? It made sense -- frogs like to be slimey. I wish EVE had something like that.
Slithereen	Posted - 2005.10.03 03:03:00 - [33] Never played Elite. Wasn't old enough for that. Did play Independence War and IW2:Edge of Chaos though. Not for a long time but I was very impressed with the physics and how you can slide a ship to bring your guns to bear on the target. You like a trading game with physics there is the X series. i heard there is a third sequel in the works. I like the X:BTF but hated the second one. Compared to the IW series, the physics in X series sucks to fly. No game is perfect. There are tons of things I like to see EVE improved on. Then also there are tons of things I wanted IW and the X series to improve on also. I don't think a realistic physics and collidable model would work on an MMO in the long term. Mainly because a lot of people don't have the skills to handle a joystick and play flight simulation, much less dogfight in it. YOu can see the "success" of games like Jumpgate and Allegiance as a testimony for this. So you really have to aim for the lowest common denominator for flying a ship to get the biggest user base as possible. Flying a ship in EVE is by far the easiest I've seen in a space game and such a no brainer. Flying in Freespace and Freelancer is using the mouse and keyboard but there is still flying involved in it. Again, that would still limit your userbase. The kind of players who would be skilled in flying would already be playing Warbirds Online or the Sturmovik series or something. I think to do a real flying seats of the pants kind of MMO is impossible with a single shard and thousands of players online on it simultaneously. The sheer bandwidth and processing requirements would be overwhelming and so would the subscription price needed to maintain such systems. The best approach would be something like a Battlefield Online but in space, sort of like the old Allegiance game I enjoyed very much. I think EVE is okay going for the user friendly and for the least common denominator approach. It has paid enough for them well financially. I do think there is still major glaring holes in the game for immersibility. I loved Freelancer when it comes to immersion and there are lessons EVE can learn from FL when it comes to that. _______________________________________________ "Is it me or the bad guys just getting totally pathetic?"---Clover, Totally Spies, "Hope is wasted on the Hopeless."---Mandy, The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy. "Stars are holes in the sky from which the light of the Infinite shine through."---Confucius.
burningsquid	Posted - 2005.10.03 03:06:00 - [34] Originally by: Slithereen Flying in Freespace and Freelancer is using the mouse and keyboard but there is still flying involved in it. Again, that would still limit your userbase. The kind of players who would be skilled in flying would already be playing Warbirds Online or the Sturmovik series or something. I agree with you, however a flight stick is the only true way to play freespace, mouse be damned.
Tekyong Carlunaire	Posted - 2005.10.03 03:38:00 - [35] Originally by: Suze'Rain However, that said, to paraphrase Newton: "If CCP have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." and in light of that, I personally feel that two of the Titans from eve's backstories should be named the Bell and Braben. Hear, hear!
Dimning	Posted - 2005.10.03 03:41:00 - [36] EVE is not the same game-type as the Elite games; and to make it more Elite like doesn't really make sense. That said, I'd love to see a single player, offline Elite-like game using the Eve graphics and graphics engine.
Pottsey	Posted - 2005.10.03 06:57:00 - [37] Did anyone play Eltie 3? Better known as Elite: First Encounters. The small version came on 2, 720kb floppy disks. The large PC version was on CD. I have it installed now and its well over 500meg big. The ships are great unlike most games with a clear upgrade path where you jump from ship 1 to ship 2 as its better. Elite ships have no clear upgrade path and ship A is not better then ship B. "Planets. There were actual solid planets you could land on that had real spaceports, buildings, structures and geography" A few things that impressed me was the citys and landscape are its all in 3D in Elite 3 (Elite 2 the planet was flat but 3D buildings). If you flew next to a clock tower even in Elite 2 and landed you could watch the clock time move in realtime and match the correct ingame time. Other great ideas Eve should borrow are the rank system, planet missons like photograph the base, permits to fly into certain systems, the BB board for missons which also had news, hitchikers e.c.t. But there are some things in Elite that dont fit in Eve and I wouldnt want to see Eve turn into Elite just borrow some of the bits. _________________________________________________ Nominate famous people in Eve who had an impact on you.
Zeb Boregar	Posted - 2005.10.03 07:26:00 - [38] You want a hardcore space simulator, where you can land on planets, where you can dock to stations, where gravity fields are a pain in the a$$ to escape from and so on? Try Orbiter And after some months of training and perfect understanding of real physics you will realise that you will NEVER be abble to have a fight....I let you discover why...:)
Teles666	Posted - 2005.10.03 07:52:00 - [39] It would be interesting to have a 1st person element. You could train up marine skills and have troop drop ships then once you've broken down the POS shields you have to land and overcome the point defenses / defending players. Problem is, no-one would like it, grunts die a lot more than pilots so who'd volunteer? :)
Nyphur	Posted - 2005.10.03 08:50:00 - [40] Edited by: Nyphur on 03/10/2005 08:51:40 Oh, also, I thought I should let you know why manual control of your ship isn't an option. I'm told it used to be, but it was removed due to lag. It makes perfect sense to me, as a programmer. If you double-click somewhere to change direction, that's one direction change sent to the server. If you turn left for one second, that's a number of consecutive turns over the course of one second. It could be 10 turns each of 1/10th the degree you finally end up turning or it could be up to 100 turns of 1/100th. Regardless of how many instructions are sent per second, multiplying ship movement even by ten would create staggering lag problems with the current hardware. Perhaps in the future it will be a viable option and will be reintroduced.
Pottsey	Posted - 2005.10.03 09:09:00 - [41] ôRegardless of how many instructions are sent per second, multiplying ship movement even by ten would create staggering lag problems with the current hardware. Perhaps in the future it will be a viable option and will be reintroduced.ö Surly itÆs a viable option now as there are or should that be was two other online only spaceship games with manual control of the ships. Both games donÆt suffer from lag while moving. In theory multiplying ship movement by ten would not create extra data to send. You get the client side to let you move in 3D then the only data you send is the position and speed of the ship. You donÆt need to send all the movements only the start and end position with the speed of the ship. _________________________________________________ Nominate famous people in Eve who had an impact on you.
Ruffio Sepico	Posted - 2005.10.03 09:21:00 - [42] Ahhhh.. Elite 2: Frontier, think there isn't any game I played so much as this one. (Maybe except Civ 1). If you didnt have autopilot system installed you had to dock manual. Imagine that in EVE? The docking bay and outside would probably look like scrap heaps. Also the ap in Frontier had some flaws, it could sometimes crash you into a planet, moon etc. Remember once I invested all the cash I had into buy slaves (ergh :p). But due to not have cargobay lifesupport system installed, I arrived with..... Fertilizer.... Wonder why brutor tribe give out so much Fertilizer as bonus's Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk HiD Kills: http://kill.hidden-agenda.co.uk/index.php
sonofollo	Posted - 2005.10.03 09:27:00 - [43] ive personally been in contact with the company that is in the process of making elite 4 (which will be ralise sometime in late 2006) its the same company that made rollercoaster tycoon series amoung others they are aiming for a online multiplayer version and a solo single player version So yeah the old classic is 90% coming back they have even advertised for programmers
Jonkai	Posted - 2005.10.03 09:32:00 - [44] Actually flying the ship from being sat in the pilots seat would be awesome, but it's never going to happen :)
Ruffio Sepico	Posted - 2005.10.03 09:34:00 - [45] Originally by: Jonkai Actually flying the ship from being sat in the pilots seat would be awesome, but it's never going to happen :) In Frontier you could actually man turrets to, in larger ships that had multiple of them. Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk HiD Kills: http://kill.hidden-agenda.co.uk/index.php
sonofollo	Posted - 2005.10.03 09:39:00 - [46] i think eve follows the basic pattern of the elite sort of game but a lot of the development has been in addition to eve.
Pottsey	Posted - 2005.10.03 09:55:00 - [47] Edited by: Pottsey on 03/10/2005 09:56:06 ôive personally been in contact with the company that is in the process of making elite 4 (which will be ralise sometime in late 2006)ö I think you might have misunderstood what Frontier Developments said or there has been a change of plan that I missed. They have been telling eveyone else current technology is not up to the level to do what they want and full development will not start before 2005/2006. That means if they start in 2005 it might come out in 2007 or 2008 perhaps longer. They want to make it a first person/space ship game so you start in FPS without a spaceship which also means you can land/dock and get out your ship. The concept art looks great. David Braben also wrote about Eve once. But if I remember correctly he was not to impressed. _________________________________________________ Nominate famous people in Eve who had an impact on you.
babyblue	Posted - 2005.10.03 12:07:00 - [48] I was thinking about applying for a programmer job at frontier, just to see what the deal was with Elite 4 . From interviews with Braben (sorry, can't remember the linkages), he didn't comment directly about Eve apart from to say that it looks interesting but doesn't really have the Elite aesthetic. Elite 4 was originally thought about as being an MMORPG as at the time this was considered "the next step" in the genre. Since then, it's become obvious that you cannot supply the Elite experience in an MMORPG, without seriously compromising the Arcade feel of Combat. This is one of Eve's problems. It is perhaps inspired by Elite (as every game involving freedom, trading and combat is), but it is nothing like it to play. Then of course we have the X series (X3 is out soon). This is much more "Elite-like" than Eve is. Combat is arcade style for starters. But, commenting on the X series, Braben has said he doesn't see any point in creating another Elite clone unless you add to the genre. That is, unless you are doing something new. I quite like X2 and will buy X3 when it's released. I enjoy joystick or Freelancer (mouse) style combat. Somehow in Eve fighting always seems unfair. Almost as if I have been cheated by undocking with the wrong ship and setup (paper, scissors, stone). At least when I play an FPS style space game, my physical spatial reasoning skills have some importance too. However, this is a personal thing. In terms of Elite 4, you can see Frontier building up the required technologies, but keeping their hand in with games that take advantage of them. Rollercoaster Tycoon shows you how it's possible to populate an area with life-like NPC characters. Wallis and Grommit and Dogs Life show you their impressive character animation systems and their new game "Outsider" is going to attempt to do this on a larger scale (a whole city). These are the technologies required in order to "do something new" with the Elite genre. I'm sure Frontier could knock a new clone together in 12 months, but I think Braben is an artist - rather than a businessman. He has some professional ambitions above money. btw: to those "fan boys" who argue that Eve could never do collision etc. properly due to the way it works, it is a design decision by CCP not a constraint on all MMORPGs. IT would be entirely possible to have arcade style combat in Eve systems but the kicker would be having to limit the number of people allowed in a system at any given time, giving those inside a P2P style setup for interaction. Quite exploitable obviously. btw: I hate to keep plugging this guys website, but it looks to me like a Frontier type clone, with more up to date CGI. In fact, his work so far is ****ing amazing.
Agnar Koladrov	Posted - 2005.10.03 12:46:00 - [49] Interesting read this thread has given. But I still fail to see the point why EVE cannot have a very rudementory collidense physics. No we see even the biggest ships, do the bouncy thing when being hit by heavy blasts (ea missiles). Why cant this rediculous result form the current physics engine be exluded? I mean, programming code can have exclusions to the rule in them. With static solar system like in EVE, the warp formula could well be edited to circumvent planetary/stationary objects. Only thing is, it takes time.....and we all know time is money in any business. I think the foam physics model and the warp model could well be changed if, to give it more of a realistic feeling, some time and efford is put into it.
Eletro Bull	Posted - 2005.10.03 12:46:00 - [50] If you really want to find out why EVE does not use planet collisions and a more dynamic combat system, goto Darkspace this has a 14 day trial, the lag will own you more than the enemy. This is not a advertisment in anyway, shape or form! ________________________________________________
Tenaj	Posted - 2005.10.03 12:50:00 - [51] You've all missed the relevant point emerging from this thread, which is that Jack Brimstone (AKA Ian Bell) was, with David Braben, the creator of Elite. CCP have already said that they were heavily influenced by Elite when they dreamed up EVE, so Jack / Ian has been a defining influence in the EVE universe. Jack is clearly......GOD. And I must have God's ore.... I will keep it forever safe in a secure container labelled 'elite god's ore' and I will praise it in perpetuity in the virtual temple of Tenaj... I'm not worthy..... Channel TOOKURSTUFF, serving the Criminal community.
Milkminer	Posted - 2005.10.03 13:54:00 - [52] Edited by: Milkminer on 03/10/2005 13:54:53 Originally by: Dark Shikari And Elite is not 13 years old, its 21 years old. It didn't even come on a floppy, and it ran on the ZX Spectrum (and later the Commodore 64). I miss the ZX Spectrum and Commodore 64 :( Thoses were the days, life was so simple
NAFnist	Posted - 2005.10.03 13:56:00 - [53] I saw a vid of one of the dev's claiming the where inspired by Elite. When I found out I couldnt use a joystick in EVE I cried. Im glad crying didnt help, cuz joystick in eve wouldnt work at all ;)
Chinsor	Posted - 2005.10.03 13:58:00 - [54] Frontier is my favourite game of all time, and can still be played, i forget the links but you can download it free and play it using Dosbox on XP, It would be nice to fly through a planets atmosphere in eve, and planets could provide a massive amount of gameplay options. At least space isn't blue like it was in frontier, suppose i'd rather have that than nebula's in every system though
NAFnist	Posted - 2005.10.03 13:58:00 - [55] Originally by: Milkminer Edited by: Milkminer on 03/10/2005 13:54:53 Originally by: Dark Shikari And Elite is not 13 years old, its 21 years old. It didn't even come on a floppy, and it ran on the ZX Spectrum (and later the Commodore 64). I miss the ZX Spectrum and Commodore 64 :( Thoses were the days, life was so simple Dont forget the BBC
babyblue	Posted - 2005.10.03 14:18:00 - [56] Originally by: Chinsor Frontier is my favourite game of all time, and can still be played, i forget the links but you can download it free and play it using Dosbox on XP, It would be nice to fly through a planets atmosphere in eve, and planets could provide a massive amount of gameplay options. At least space isn't blue like it was in frontier, suppose i'd rather have that than nebula's in every system though You don't need DOS box any more. Some insane nutter reverse engineered it. It now runs in a window on XP :). You can find it and other associated stuff here. The combat model in FFE and FEII are pretty rubbish though. I think Braben went too far with the "pure physics" model to such an extent that it destroyed the arcade feel of combat from the original Elite.
Hans Roaming	Posted - 2005.10.03 14:30:00 - [57] Frontier was a good take on how things could work and the attention to detail was fantastic. However you think training skills takes time, imagine the travel times if Eve was like Frontier. A captain of a ship doesn't pilot his craft and man the guns which is the way I view a pod pilot in Eve. In Frontier you had multiple turrets and a crew but had to manually fly and fire them which was sort of frustrating. For the Ultimate in realistic combat look at I War II, maybe that could work when the ability to have Eve like numbers on one shard becomes possible. And one of the creators of Elite is playing on Eve, OMG I'm not worthy!!!!!!!!!! Outreach Executive Huzzah Foreign Affairs Into PVP? Join us to fight some of the best pvpers.
Tenaj	Posted - 2005.10.03 15:33:00 - [58] Originally by: Hans Roaming And one of the creators of Elite is playing on Eve, OMG I'm not worthy!!!!!!!!!! Correct Hans, you're not. I, however, intend to form the church of Jack Brimstone and smite all naysayers until they become 'Mostly harmless'. You may, if you wish, take a minor role in my clergy but I saw him first and I bagsie High Priestess.... You want more then go find your own Deity. Speak to me oh Brimstone.....Tell me your bidding. (Ore relocation related bidding that is, I don't have much else on the CV I'm afraid) Channel TOOKURSTUFF, serving the Criminal community.
Stradivarious	Posted - 2005.10.03 15:53:00 - [59] Originally by: Maya Rkell Afaik, Eve owes more to TradeWars than Frontier. /emote mourns the loss of TradeWars... I used to play that game as much as the particular BBSes would per day I like to think of myself as the chlorine in the gene pool.
Solar Sailor	Posted - 2005.10.03 16:52:00 - [60] Originally by: Indra Sebuchiore Fly-by-wire. Full, realistic control of your ship. The ability to manoeuver by the seat of your pants with a***pit view led to the fighting actually depending on skill, not just calculations. The ability to be able to manually land, take off, and dock at stations if desired was an important area of the game. When will people stop asking for this? There is no Frikken **pit. On any player ship, anywhere in Eve. Your inside an armoured egg filled with goop, with no windows or any for of convetional flight control device. You control your ship through numerous sharp pointy things inserted at various points along your nervous system. There is very little chance of this EVER apperaing, deal with it. ------- Bringer of Squirrelly Wrath - Foaminian Card Cult

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