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Indra Sebuchiore
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Posted - 2005.10.02 21:53:00 -
[1]
It has been said on a number of occasions that EVE was created as a way to experience a multiplayer Elite done with modern technology. This influence cannot be understated, and almost every area of EVE has its origins in ideas within Elite.
However, I find it quite ironic (or disappointing) that a 13 year old game such as Frontier: Elite - which came on a single 720kB floppy - still does many things better than EVE, even after all this time. Examples...
Collidable objects. Every major obecjt in the game was solid, not a mere phantom backdrop. If you hit something such as a space station, planet or another ship, you took damage, and if you hit it hard enough you were destroyed. Far more realistic than being able to pass through stations, asteroids and planets.
Planets. There were actual solid planets you could land on that had real spaceports, buildings, structures and geography (not to mention planetary rotation with days and nights) Imagine that! Also gas giants - with hydrogen atmospheres you could scoop for fuel!
Gravity. Stars, planets and other massive objects had gravitational fields. Actually slingshotting your ship round a planet or moon in real time was one of the greatest gaming moments ever. This also leads me to...
Realistic physics. Apart from the aforementioned gravity, there was also complete Galilean/Newtonian motion. Once you accelerated you stayed at that give speed provided you didn't encounter anything, and it took fuel to decelerate your ship. You could turn and execute manoeuvers all while drifing along at high velocity. This formed part of...
Fly-by-wire. Full, realistic control of your ship. The ability to manoeuver by the seat of your pants with a*****pit view led to the fighting actually depending on skill, not just calculations. The ability to be able to manually land, take off, and dock at stations if desired was an important area of the game.
Stars and temperature. Stars were huge beasts with fearsome gravitional fields and if you got too close to them your ships hull temperature would rise and you would eventually melt - this meant scooping fuel from the surface of a star was a nail biting escapade. 
Star systems. Binary, tertiary, quaternary systems, brown dwarfs, gas giants, they were all there.
Graphics. Just kidding. 
So... if a game that old and so small in size can implement these things correctly how come a modern EVE with years of development can't?
Answers on a postcard to the usual address. Next week: what EVE combat could learn from Freespace.
__________________________________________
"In girum imus nocte, et consumimur igni."
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2005.10.02 21:56:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 02/10/2005 21:59:13
That is like saying that Pac Man is better than EVE, because it had less latency. You cannot say that EVE should have every feature from every game. Games are different, thank god. I hope nobody asks next that EVE needs an Auction House, gnomes, and night elves.
EVE is not Elite, and for good reason does not have a lot of the features in Elite.
And Elite is not 13 years old, its 21 years old. It didn't even come on a floppy, and it ran on the ZX Spectrum (and later the Commodore 64).
Frontier: Elite is not Elite and will never be.
--
Proud member of the [23].
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Commander Lock
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Posted - 2005.10.02 22:00:00 -
[3]
Elite was a great physics engine, and that was a major part of the gameplay. EVE doesn't need such features, instead it has a superior battle and market system.
Having said that, being able to land on one of Saturn's moons and watch the giant ringed planet rise above the horizon made it one of the best game experiences ever.
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Jack Brimstone
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Posted - 2005.10.02 22:02:00 -
[4]
 Quote:
ran on the ZX Spectrum
It first ran on the BBC Micro.
You may now praise me for being oldskool.  |
Sirial Soulfly
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Posted - 2005.10.02 22:06:00 -
[5]
We can still hope for eve to become actually better then elite was right ? :)
Maybe in a year or two.
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Jack Brimstone
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Posted - 2005.10.02 22:08:00 -
[6]
And second what the Shikari chap said. I notice a lot of people are under the same impression -- that Frontier Elite is the original, it isn't, Elite (1984) is.
From the creator (one of them anyway): Linkage |
Nyphur
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Posted - 2005.10.02 22:09:00 -
[7]
Collidable objects and gravity are two things that would be practically impossible in eve, due to the way it works. The exact position of ships on the screen isn't always entirely accurate. The ship might be a little to the left or a little to the right compared to how you see it, etc. If you made an online version of Frontier: Elite II that could hold a substantial number of players, it would have the same problems with collision-detection. Eve gets around the problem of collision by having collision avoidance and I say it's a fair tradeoff. The only other option si to outsource it to the client, let the client decide when you collide with something, and that would cause problems where it would be entirely possible to fly straight into someone and explode, but on their screen you just flew beside them and exploded for no reason due to a little desynch which is an unavoidable consequence of the way Eve works.
It's a nice idea to have collision but I'd prefer the way it works now to the multitude of problems that woudl arise by changing it.
Star systems in Eve are all of one type because it's a requirement for building stargates. Something to do with the gravity well of the star. The gas giants, planetary rings and gas clouds are coming, though. We'll be able to harvest some gas environments.
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Commander Lock
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Posted - 2005.10.02 22:10:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Jack Brimstone
And second what the Shikari chap said. I notice a lot of people are under the same impression -- that Frontier Elite is the original, it isn't, Elite (1984) is.
From the creator (one of them anyway): Linkage
But this topic is about Frontier Elite... why do you assume people think it's the original?
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Indra Sebuchiore
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Posted - 2005.10.02 22:21:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Indra Sebuchiore on 02/10/2005 22:23:46
Shikari, I think you missed my point somewhat. Firstly, I know when Elite came out, and I know when Frontier came out and on which platforms, and regardless of these a discussion on Elite itself is not my point - I was drawing a comparision to highlight EVE's own shortcomings in certain areas, such as the lack of landable planets.
Yes, games are different, and I love EVE, but I find it has major shortcomings in certain areas - though I have to agree with you on the Auction House and night elves. 
Nyphur raised a good point on the whole collision detection issue - how about instead of having collision detection between player ships and other ships, how about just having collision detection between players and the environment - planets, stations etc. Would that still cause the same issues?
Edited to add: though the original Elite may not have, Frontier did come on a single 720kB floppy, and if you come round my house I can show the original boxed software I still have
__________________________________________
"In girum imus nocte, et consumimur igni."
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Jack Brimstone
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Posted - 2005.10.02 22:23:00 -
[10]
My bad, drifted off on nostalgic tangent. Apologies to OP for mini-hijack. On topic:
Collidable objects, sounds good in theory, but tbh think of the train wreck there would be outside of Fed Navy station in Oursulaert  Although I admit, when I first played EVE I wandered about for an hour desperately trying not to hit things before realising it didn't damage your ship.
I think the full control of ship thing would turn EVE (combat wise at least) in to a 'twitch' game too much. Am with you on the star systems variety thing and gravity thing though. |
Liisa
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Posted - 2005.10.02 22:27:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Liisa on 02/10/2005 22:28:04
Ahh, the joy of physics.
I feel that most people forget that this is a game and not a physics simulator. Once we start fooling around with true physics we start getting some real problems.
Such as when do we start using theory of relativity? I mean, doing 4000m/s does slowly put us into the realm where this starts to matter. Do we recalculate the mass of the ship based on its speed? What about colour shifts?
As you can see too much of something is a problem, and if would probably need far too much computing power.
As for landing on planets, walking around station and all the rest, do we really need that? Isn't the game good the way it is already?
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Indra Sebuchiore
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Posted - 2005.10.02 22:30:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Liisa
As for landing on planets, walking around station and all the rest, do we really need that?
Yes. And I wasn't going on about walking around the station, just landing on planets.
__________________________________________
"In girum imus nocte, et consumimur igni."
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jbob2000
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Posted - 2005.10.02 22:43:00 -
[13]
What would you do on a planet that you can already do in a station?
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Nyphur
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Posted - 2005.10.02 22:45:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Indra Sebuchiore
Nyphur raised a good point on the whole collision detection issue - how about instead of having collision detection between player ships and other ships, how about just having collision detection between players and the environment - planets, stations etc. Would that still cause the same issues?
If we retained collision avoidance with players, collision detection with the environment becomes a viable possibility, but only if managed by the client. Letting the client manage things is usually a step in the wrong direction for MMO design, but I can think of a way to do it. You have the client deflect off the object when the models intersect, then send a message to the server the equivalent of "collision: object x, ship y, combined linear velocity p, angle of impact q" and then the server takes the velocity and angle of impact and calculates a small amount of damage for you to take and then applies it to your ship as if it were kinetic damage from a missile or such. This means that collision events are determined by the client but the response is determined by the server, allowing people to bump realistically into asteroids and space stations rather than clang off it when it's nowhere to be seen.
Because of lag (such as when activating modules), it would look unresponsive for a moment. That is, you'd collide and it'd take a few hundred milliseconds, or if you're lagging a few seconds, before the damage would occur. All in all, that isn't exploitable, though, because all other game actions will be delayed by the same amount due to the lag too.
Letting the client handle something can lead to exploits when someone figures out what packet to edit or what piece of memory to change, but those are problems that every game has to deal with. Without knowing gow the eve client works, I'd say the client performs some vital tasks anyway. Such as cloaking. It's just as plausible to cause your client to not be able to see others cloaking. The fact that people can't do that suggests that this collision idea isn't too far fetched and that problem, the only real problem there is with it that I can see, isn't a problem at all.
So yes, it would work. Server load and client load wouldn't be increased too much, about the same as activating a module. The primary work would be getting the algorithms right for telling if the models themselves had intersected. That'd be a little bit of work.
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El Covah
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Posted - 2005.10.02 22:47:00 -
[15]
Who ever is interested in Frontier should have a look on this.
Linkage
I am still playing it today on WinUAE. 
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Wild Rho
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Posted - 2005.10.02 23:02:00 -
[16]
ahh I remember seeing frontier for the first time, damn I couldn't stop drooling.
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Nyphur
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Posted - 2005.10.02 23:06:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Wild Rho
ahh I remember seeing frontier for the first time, damn I couldn't stop drooling.
Ditto. Only one game has made me feel like that since then, and I'm playing it. Eve Online :).
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Indra Sebuchiore
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Posted - 2005.10.02 23:14:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Nyphur
Only one game has made me feel like that since then, and I'm playing it. Eve Online :)
I have to agree
Also, some interesting points you raised about client-side collision detection and communication of this information to the server - let's hope a Dev is reading and takes something from this. Who knows how EVE will develop in the future? I for one hope it continues to surpass all that has gone before it.
__________________________________________
"In girum imus nocte, et consumimur igni."
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Suze'Rain
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Posted - 2005.10.02 23:15:00 -
[19]
comparing Eve and Elite is a bit like comparing Georges MÚliÞs ' "A Trip to the moon" with Kubrick's "2001", and Lucas' "star wars".
they're technically the same genre, but such completely different treatments that there's very little that is actually connected between each - and that is the same with Eve and Elite.
However, that said, to paraphrase Newton: "If CCP have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." and in light of that, I personally feel that two of the Titans from eve's backstories should be named the Bell and Braben.
just my one groat's worth of opinion
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Yarek Balear
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Posted - 2005.10.02 23:17:00 -
[20]
Presumably someday (when computing power increases in line with people's demand for more entertainment), gametypes will merge in the MMORPG environment and we'll have the ability to land on a planet, engage in a Quake-like skirmish on a dynamically allocated server and then take off again, having PWNT our enemies first hand...
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Sirial Soulfly
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Posted - 2005.10.02 23:29:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Liisa
Edited by: Liisa on 02/10/2005 22:28:04
Ahh, the joy of physics.
I feel that most people forget that this is a game and not a physics simulator. Once we start fooling around with true physics we start getting some real problems.
Such as when do we start using theory of relativity? I mean, doing 4000m/s does slowly put us into the realm where this starts to matter. Do we recalculate the mass of the ship based on its speed? What about colour shifts?
As you can see too much of something is a problem, and if would probably need far too much computing power.
As for landing on planets, walking around station and all the rest, do we really need that? Isn't the game good the way it is already?
The game is fine as it is, but that doesnt mean it can get even better, a large part why i keep playing this is knowing ccp is working on improving it.
And by comparing this game to old classics who knows we as customers could give ccp a nudge in the right direction. (here is for hoping)
EVE-olution 4tw!
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2005.10.02 23:33:00 -
[22]
Afaik, Eve owes more to TradeWars than Frontier.
"Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted." |
Nyphur
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Posted - 2005.10.02 23:35:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Indra Sebuchiore
Originally by: Nyphur
Only one game has made me feel like that since then, and I'm playing it. Eve Online :)
I have to agree
Also, some interesting points you raised about client-side collision detection and communication of this information to the server - let's hope a Dev is reading and takes something from this. Who knows how EVE will develop in the future? I for one hope it continues to surpass all that has gone before it.
Well, they do have a habit of surprising you with regards reading posts on the forum with ideas. I wouldn't count on it, though ;).
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Grimwalius d'Antan
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Posted - 2005.10.02 23:45:00 -
[24]
If this game was more like Frontier: Elite, it'd be down to 1/8 the number of players it has today. The reason Frontier worked was because you could a) save the game b) speed up time, and it ran on YOUR machine only taking YOU into consideration. If crashing into things would spell death in EVE, we'd spend more time navigating than actually going somewhere. People whine about time consuming travel even with the speed and ease we have in Eve.
Don't let warping through planets annoy you. Warping means travelling faster than light, it is basically like teleportation. Also, most structures cannot be passed through. I've only managed to fly into certain Minmatar stations, and that is it. Every other object in the game sends me bouncing.
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Keta Min
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Posted - 2005.10.02 23:49:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Liisa
Edited by: Liisa on 02/10/2005 22:28:04
Ahh, the joy of physics.
I feel that most people forget that this is a game and not a physics simulator. Once we start fooling around with true physics we start getting some real problems.
Such as when do we start using theory of relativity? I mean, doing 4000m/s does slowly put us into the realm where this starts to matter. Do we recalculate the mass of the ship based on its speed? What about colour shifts?
As you can see too much of something is a problem, and if would probably need far too much computing power.
As for landing on planets, walking around station and all the rest, do we really need that? Isn't the game good the way it is already?
4000 m/s is nowhere near relativistic speeds 
6au/s warps does indeed interfer with it though, even with the "depleted vacuum bubble" thingy you can read in the backstory.
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Nyphur
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Posted - 2005.10.02 23:52:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Grimwalius d'Antan
If crashing into things would spell death in EVE, we'd spend more time navigating than actually going somewhere. People whine about time consuming travel even with the speed and ease we have in Eve.
Don't let warping through planets annoy you. Warping means travelling faster than light, it is basically like teleportation. Also, most structures cannot be passed through. I've only managed to fly into certain Minmatar stations, and that is it. Every other object in the game sends me bouncing.
Well, we're talking about a small percentage of damage here, like it'd take a frigate going at 4km/sec to bash into a station or asteroid ten times to blow it up. Obviously, larger ships would take more collision damage so that it was still a measurable effect by doing the same percentage damage but it'd still be tiny. It's not like frontier where you explode when you graze something, this would be just a little damage and a bounce off something for effect.
And about warping, the warp drive works by removing the space in front of you. Therefore, warping through a solid object is perfectly feasible as you're not actually warping through anything - you're removing the space in front of you so there's no object to collide with. To the outside observer, the ship is what appears to be immaterial, as if it were a ghost ship.
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Sun Ra
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Posted - 2005.10.02 23:52:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 02/10/2005 21:59:13
That is like saying that Pac Man is better than EVE, because it had less latency. You cannot say that EVE should have every feature from every game. Games are different, thank god. I hope nobody asks next that EVE needs an Auction House, gnomes, and night elves.
EVE is not Elite, and for good reason does not have a lot of the features in Elite.
And Elite is not 13 years old, its 21 years old. It didn't even come on a floppy, and it ran on the ZX Spectrum (and later the Commodore 64).
Frontier: Elite is not Elite and will never be.
Nice save with the edit there :p
make another one it came out on the bbc micro first (which i had)
We're coming for you |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2005.10.03 00:16:00 -
[28]
"Fly-by-wire. Full, realistic control of your ship. The ability to manoeuver by the seat of your pants with a*****pit view led to the fighting actually depending on skill, not just calculations."
My 100% succesful combat strategy in Frontier consisted of fitting long range laser beam, clicking on target ship for the autopilot to do all navigation while it was still some 10 a.u. away, then clicking 'accelerate time x1000' and clicking 'fire' once the target was in range, perfectly aligned for destruction. If they survived first salvo (and relative speeds would move us both apart few a.u. again) i'd just repeat the process couple of times. Same thing worked equally well for close distance combat.
Frontier was fun, but combat being a matter of skill in it is just a myth, and it wasn't part of that fun...
(i loved animated tower clocks always showing correct local planet time, though :s
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Amerame
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Posted - 2005.10.03 00:26:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Amerame on 03/10/2005 00:26:42
Seconded, Frontier's fights were really awful, especialy when you compare them to Wing Commander's Privateer. Frontier had some good stuff, it felt more immersive than most games, for a time, then you'd realise it was the biggest empty universe that had ever been.
Though, it would be cool to have a sf MMORPG with all the cool features of privateer, frontier and megatraveller.
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Astabon
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Posted - 2005.10.03 02:21:00 -
[30]
The only MMO's that I know of with collision physics and hit detection are the Space Expansion for Star Wars Galaxies (small zones though, and no physics to speak of) and Planetside...but that's on the ground with ground troops, tanks, and flying vehicles. Both are huge and both are twitch, not dice roll like this game and other MMO's.
This could not be adapted to EVE. It would have to be completely redone, and some people wouldn't want it. Even Earth & Beyond (long live!) used "dice roll combat".
I hope to see a day when space combat can be done twitch like on a massive scale. It's possble Star Trek Onlinewill have something like this.
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Magnum III
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Posted - 2005.10.03 02:37:00 -
[31]
If we had true collision in EVE that would mess things up.
We need to "Bump" in this game, for one thing that I can think of is every time we bumped someone it would cause damage and Concord would blow us up.
Elite whatever was a single player game and EVE is an Online multiple player game, EVE is good to go as for a Physics, I'm sure some different things could be tried but it should not be like Elite any version.
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Telekon
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Posted - 2005.10.03 02:44:00 -
[32]
Anyone remember in Elite (not Frontier) that the frog planets had the best prices for skin lotion? It made sense -- frogs like to be slimey. I wish EVE had something like that.
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Slithereen
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Posted - 2005.10.03 03:03:00 -
[33]
Never played Elite. Wasn't old enough for that.
Did play Independence War and IW2:Edge of Chaos though. Not for a long time but I was very impressed with the physics and how you can slide a ship to bring your guns to bear on the target.
You like a trading game with physics there is the X series. i heard there is a third sequel in the works. I like the X:BTF but hated the second one. Compared to the IW series, the physics in X series sucks to fly.
No game is perfect. There are tons of things I like to see EVE improved on. Then also there are tons of things I wanted IW and the X series to improve on also.
I don't think a realistic physics and collidable model would work on an MMO in the long term. Mainly because a lot of people don't have the skills to handle a joystick and play flight simulation, much less dogfight in it. YOu can see the "success" of games like Jumpgate and Allegiance as a testimony for this. So you really have to aim for the lowest common denominator for flying a ship to get the biggest user base as possible. Flying a ship in EVE is by far the easiest I've seen in a space game and such a no brainer.
Flying in Freespace and Freelancer is using the mouse and keyboard but there is still flying involved in it. Again, that would still limit your userbase. The kind of players who would be skilled in flying would already be playing Warbirds Online or the Sturmovik series or something.
I think to do a real flying seats of the pants kind of MMO is impossible with a single shard and thousands of players online on it simultaneously. The sheer bandwidth and processing requirements would be overwhelming and so would the subscription price needed to maintain such systems. The best approach would be something like a Battlefield Online but in space, sort of like the old Allegiance game I enjoyed very much.
I think EVE is okay going for the user friendly and for the least common denominator approach. It has paid enough for them well financially. I do think there is still major glaring holes in the game for immersibility. I loved Freelancer when it comes to immersion and there are lessons EVE can learn from FL when it comes to that.
_______________________________________________
"Is it me or the bad guys just getting totally pathetic?"---Clover, Totally Spies,
"Hope is wasted on the Hopeless."---Mandy, The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy.
"Stars are holes in the sky from which the light of the Infinite shine through."---Confucius.
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burningsquid
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Posted - 2005.10.03 03:06:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Slithereen
Flying in Freespace and Freelancer is using the mouse and keyboard but there is still flying involved in it. Again, that would still limit your userbase. The kind of players who would be skilled in flying would already be playing Warbirds Online or the Sturmovik series or something.
I agree with you, however a flight stick is the only true way to play freespace, mouse be damned.
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Tekyong Carlunaire
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Posted - 2005.10.03 03:38:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Suze'Rain
However, that said, to paraphrase Newton: "If CCP have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." and in light of that, I personally feel that two of the Titans from eve's backstories should be named the Bell and Braben.
Hear, hear!
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Dimning
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Posted - 2005.10.03 03:41:00 -
[36]
EVE is not the same game-type as the Elite games; and to make it more Elite like doesn't really make sense.
That said, I'd love to see a single player, offline Elite-like game using the Eve graphics and graphics engine.
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Pottsey
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Posted - 2005.10.03 06:57:00 -
[37]
Did anyone play Eltie 3? Better known as Elite: First Encounters.
The small version came on 2, 720kb floppy disks. The large PC version was on CD. I have it installed now and its well over 500meg big. The ships are great unlike most games with a clear upgrade path where you jump from ship 1 to ship 2 as its better. Elite ships have no clear upgrade path and ship A is not better then ship B.
"Planets. There were actual solid planets you could land on that had real spaceports, buildings, structures and geography"
A few things that impressed me was the citys and landscape are its all in 3D in Elite 3 (Elite 2 the planet was flat but 3D buildings). If you flew next to a clock tower even in Elite 2 and landed you could watch the clock time move in realtime and match the correct ingame time. Other great ideas Eve should borrow are the rank system, planet missons like photograph the base, permits to fly into certain systems, the BB board for missons which also had news, hitchikers e.c.t. But there are some things in Elite that dont fit in Eve and I wouldnt want to see Eve turn into Elite just borrow some of the bits.
_________________________________________________
Nominate famous people in Eve who had an impact on you. |
Zeb Boregar
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Posted - 2005.10.03 07:26:00 -
[38]
You want a hardcore space simulator, where you can land on planets, where you can dock to stations, where gravity fields are a pain in the a$$ to escape from and so on?
Try Orbiter
And after some months of training and perfect understanding of real physics you will realise that you will NEVER be abble to have a fight....I let you discover why...:)
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Teles666
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Posted - 2005.10.03 07:52:00 -
[39]
It would be interesting to have a 1st person element.
You could train up marine skills and have troop drop ships then once you've broken down the POS shields you have to land and overcome the point defenses / defending players.
Problem is, no-one would like it, grunts die a lot more than pilots so who'd volunteer? :)
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Nyphur
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Posted - 2005.10.03 08:50:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Nyphur on 03/10/2005 08:51:40
Oh, also, I thought I should let you know why manual control of your ship isn't an option. I'm told it used to be, but it was removed due to lag. It makes perfect sense to me, as a programmer. If you double-click somewhere to change direction, that's one direction change sent to the server. If you turn left for one second, that's a number of consecutive turns over the course of one second. It could be 10 turns each of 1/10th the degree you finally end up turning or it could be up to 100 turns of 1/100th. Regardless of how many instructions are sent per second, multiplying ship movement even by ten would create staggering lag problems with the current hardware. Perhaps in the future it will be a viable option and will be reintroduced.
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Pottsey
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Posted - 2005.10.03 09:09:00 -
[41]
ôRegardless of how many instructions are sent per second, multiplying ship movement even by ten would create staggering lag problems with the current hardware. Perhaps in the future it will be a viable option and will be reintroduced.ö
Surly itÆs a viable option now as there are or should that be was two other online only spaceship games with manual control of the ships. Both games donÆt suffer from lag while moving.
In theory multiplying ship movement by ten would not create extra data to send. You get the client side to let you move in 3D then the only data you send is the position and speed of the ship. You donÆt need to send all the movements only the start and end position with the speed of the ship.
_________________________________________________
Nominate famous people in Eve who had an impact on you. |
Ruffio Sepico
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Posted - 2005.10.03 09:21:00 -
[42]
Ahhhh..
Elite 2: Frontier, think there isn't any game I played so much as this one. (Maybe except Civ 1).
If you didnt have autopilot system installed you had to dock manual. Imagine that in EVE? The docking bay and outside would probably look like scrap heaps. Also the ap in Frontier had some flaws, it could sometimes crash you into a planet, moon etc.
Remember once I invested all the cash I had into buy slaves (ergh :p). But due to not have cargobay lifesupport system installed, I arrived with..... Fertilizer.... Wonder why brutor tribe give out so much Fertilizer as bonus's
Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
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sonofollo
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Posted - 2005.10.03 09:27:00 -
[43]
ive personally been in contact with the company that is in the process of making elite 4 (which will be ralise sometime in late 2006) its the same company that made rollercoaster tycoon series amoung others they are aiming for a online multiplayer version and a solo single player version
So yeah the old classic is 90% coming back they have even advertised for programmers
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Jonkai
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Posted - 2005.10.03 09:32:00 -
[44]
Actually flying the ship from being sat in the pilots seat would be awesome, but it's never going to happen :)
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Ruffio Sepico
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Posted - 2005.10.03 09:34:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Jonkai
Actually flying the ship from being sat in the pilots seat would be awesome, but it's never going to happen :)
In Frontier you could actually man turrets to, in larger ships that had multiple of them.
Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
HiD Kills: http://kill.hidden-agenda.co.uk/index.php
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sonofollo
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Posted - 2005.10.03 09:39:00 -
[46]
i think eve follows the basic pattern of the elite sort of game but a lot of the development has been in addition to eve.
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Pottsey
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Posted - 2005.10.03 09:55:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Pottsey on 03/10/2005 09:56:06
ôive personally been in contact with the company that is in the process of making elite 4 (which will be ralise sometime in late 2006)ö
I think you might have misunderstood what Frontier Developments said or there has been a change of plan that I missed. They have been telling eveyone else current technology is not up to the level to do what they want and full development will not start before 2005/2006. That means if they start in 2005 it might come out in 2007 or 2008 perhaps longer. They want to make it a first person/space ship game so you start in FPS without a spaceship which also means you can land/dock and get out your ship. The concept art looks great.
David Braben also wrote about Eve once. But if I remember correctly he was not to impressed.
_________________________________________________
Nominate famous people in Eve who had an impact on you. |
babyblue
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Posted - 2005.10.03 12:07:00 -
[48]
I was thinking about applying for a programmer job at frontier, just to see what the deal was with Elite 4  . From interviews with Braben (sorry, can't remember the linkages), he didn't comment directly about Eve apart from to say that it looks interesting but doesn't really have the Elite aesthetic. Elite 4 was originally thought about as being an MMORPG as at the time this was considered "the next step" in the genre. Since then, it's become obvious that you cannot supply the Elite experience in an MMORPG, without seriously compromising the Arcade feel of Combat. This is one of Eve's problems. It is perhaps inspired by Elite (as every game involving freedom, trading and combat is), but it is nothing like it to play.
Then of course we have the X series (X3 is out soon). This is much more "Elite-like" than Eve is. Combat is arcade style for starters. But, commenting on the X series, Braben has said he doesn't see any point in creating another Elite clone unless you add to the genre. That is, unless you are doing something new. I quite like X2 and will buy X3 when it's released. I enjoy joystick or Freelancer (mouse) style combat. Somehow in Eve fighting always seems unfair. Almost as if I have been cheated by undocking with the wrong ship and setup (paper, scissors, stone). At least when I play an FPS style space game, my physical spatial reasoning skills have some importance too. However, this is a personal thing.
In terms of Elite 4, you can see Frontier building up the required technologies, but keeping their hand in with games that take advantage of them. Rollercoaster Tycoon shows you how it's possible to populate an area with life-like NPC characters. Wallis and Grommit and Dogs Life show you their impressive character animation systems and their new game "Outsider" is going to attempt to do this on a larger scale (a whole city). These are the technologies required in order to "do something new" with the Elite genre. I'm sure Frontier could knock a new clone together in 12 months, but I think Braben is an artist - rather than a businessman. He has some professional ambitions above money.
btw: to those "fan boys" who argue that Eve could never do collision etc. properly due to the way it works, it is a design decision by CCP not a constraint on all MMORPGs. IT would be entirely possible to have arcade style combat in Eve systems but the kicker would be having to limit the number of people allowed in a system at any given time, giving those inside a P2P style setup for interaction. Quite exploitable obviously.
btw: I hate to keep plugging this guys website, but it looks to me like a Frontier type clone, with more up to date CGI. In fact, his work so far is ****ing amazing.
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Agnar Koladrov
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Posted - 2005.10.03 12:46:00 -
[49]
Interesting read this thread has given.
But I still fail to see the point why EVE cannot have a very rudementory collidense physics. No we see even the biggest ships, do the bouncy thing when being hit by heavy blasts (ea missiles). Why cant this rediculous result form the current physics engine be exluded? I mean, programming code can have exclusions to the rule in them.
With static solar system like in EVE, the warp formula could well be edited to circumvent planetary/stationary objects.
Only thing is, it takes time.....and we all know time is money in any business.
I think the foam physics model and the warp model could well be changed if, to give it more of a realistic feeling, some time and efford is put into it.
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Eletro Bull
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Posted - 2005.10.03 12:46:00 -
[50]
If you really want to find out why EVE does not use planet collisions and a more dynamic combat system, goto Darkspace this has a 14 day trial, the lag will own you more than the enemy.
This is not a advertisment in anyway, shape or form!
________________________________________________
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Tenaj
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Posted - 2005.10.03 12:50:00 -
[51]
You've all missed the relevant point emerging from this thread, which is that Jack Brimstone (AKA Ian Bell) was, with David Braben, the creator of Elite.
CCP have already said that they were heavily influenced by Elite when they dreamed up EVE, so Jack / Ian has been a defining influence in the EVE universe. Jack is clearly......GOD.
And I must have God's ore.... I will keep it forever safe in a secure container labelled 'elite god's ore' and I will praise it in perpetuity in the virtual temple of Tenaj...
I'm not worthy.....
Channel TOOKURSTUFF, serving the Criminal community.
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Milkminer
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Posted - 2005.10.03 13:54:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Milkminer on 03/10/2005 13:54:53
Originally by: Dark Shikari
And Elite is not 13 years old, its 21 years old. It didn't even come on a floppy, and it ran on the ZX Spectrum (and later the Commodore 64).
I miss the ZX Spectrum and Commodore 64 :(
Thoses were the days, life was so simple 
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NAFnist
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Posted - 2005.10.03 13:56:00 -
[53]
I saw a vid of one of the dev's claiming the where inspired by Elite.
When I found out I couldnt use a joystick in EVE I cried. Im glad crying didnt help, cuz joystick in eve wouldnt work at all ;)
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Chinsor
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Posted - 2005.10.03 13:58:00 -
[54]
Frontier is my favourite game of all time, and can still be played, i forget the links but you can download it free and play it using Dosbox on XP,
It would be nice to fly through a planets atmosphere in eve, and planets could provide a massive amount of gameplay options. At least space isn't blue like it was in frontier, suppose i'd rather have that than nebula's in every system though
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NAFnist
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Posted - 2005.10.03 13:58:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Milkminer
Edited by: Milkminer on 03/10/2005 13:54:53
Originally by: Dark Shikari
And Elite is not 13 years old, its 21 years old. It didn't even come on a floppy, and it ran on the ZX Spectrum (and later the Commodore 64).
I miss the ZX Spectrum and Commodore 64 :(
Thoses were the days, life was so simple
Dont forget the BBC
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babyblue
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Posted - 2005.10.03 14:18:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Chinsor
Frontier is my favourite game of all time, and can still be played, i forget the links but you can download it free and play it using Dosbox on XP,
It would be nice to fly through a planets atmosphere in eve, and planets could provide a massive amount of gameplay options. At least space isn't blue like it was in frontier, suppose i'd rather have that than nebula's in every system though
You don't need DOS box any more. Some insane nutter reverse engineered it. It now runs in a window on XP :). You can find it and other associated stuff here.
The combat model in FFE and FEII are pretty rubbish though. I think Braben went too far with the "pure physics" model to such an extent that it destroyed the arcade feel of combat from the original Elite.
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Hans Roaming
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Posted - 2005.10.03 14:30:00 -
[57]
Frontier was a good take on how things could work and the attention to detail was fantastic. However you think training skills takes time, imagine the travel times if Eve was like Frontier.
A captain of a ship doesn't pilot his craft and man the guns which is the way I view a pod pilot in Eve. In Frontier you had multiple turrets and a crew but had to manually fly and fire them which was sort of frustrating.
For the Ultimate in realistic combat look at I War II, maybe that could work when the ability to have Eve like numbers on one shard becomes possible.
And one of the creators of Elite is playing on Eve, OMG I'm not worthy!!!!!!!!!!
Outreach Executive
Huzzah Foreign Affairs
Into PVP? Join us to fight some of the best pvpers. |
Tenaj
|
Posted - 2005.10.03 15:33:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Hans Roaming
And one of the creators of Elite is playing on Eve, OMG I'm not worthy!!!!!!!!!!
Correct Hans, you're not. I, however, intend to form the church of Jack Brimstone and smite all naysayers until they become 'Mostly harmless'. You may, if you wish, take a minor role in my clergy but I saw him first and I bagsie High Priestess.... You want more then go find your own Deity.
Speak to me oh Brimstone.....Tell me your bidding. (Ore relocation related bidding that is, I don't have much else on the CV I'm afraid)
Channel TOOKURSTUFF, serving the Criminal community.
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Stradivarious
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Posted - 2005.10.03 15:53:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Afaik, Eve owes more to TradeWars than Frontier.
/emote mourns the loss of TradeWars... I used to play that game as much as the particular BBSes would per day 
I like to think of myself as the chlorine in the gene pool.
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Solar Sailor
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Posted - 2005.10.03 16:52:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Indra Sebuchiore
Fly-by-wire. Full, realistic control of your ship. The ability to manoeuver by the seat of your pants with a*****pit view led to the fighting actually depending on skill, not just calculations. The ability to be able to manually land, take off, and dock at stations if desired was an important area of the game.
When will people stop asking for this? There is no Frikken ****pit. On any player ship, anywhere in Eve.
Your inside an armoured egg filled with goop, with no windows or any for of convetional flight control device. You control your ship through numerous sharp pointy things inserted at various points along your nervous system.
There is very little chance of this EVER apperaing, deal with it.
-------
Bringer of Squirrelly Wrath - Foaminian Card Cult
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Muthsera
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Posted - 2005.10.03 17:12:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Jack Brimstone
Quote:
ran on the ZX Spectrum
It first ran on the BBC Micro.
You may now praise me for being oldskool.
you relic..
SoonÖ
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Phal
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Posted - 2005.10.03 19:33:00 -
[62]
Jumpgate lets you control your ship with a joystick in a mmorpg setting. Works very well too.
It just a shame the number of players never really got above 500 or so when I played it 
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Karash Amerius
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Posted - 2005.10.03 19:50:00 -
[63]
Eve was inspired by Elite.
Eve is not Elite.
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Chinsor
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Posted - 2005.10.03 20:06:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Phal
Jumpgate lets you control your ship with a joystick in a mmorpg setting. Works very well too.
It just a shame the number of players never really got above 500 or so when I played it
Yea jumpgate was my first mmorpg, didn't play it for long tho but it was really good, very similar concept to eve but with combat relying solely on a players skill with a joystick, it was never really a huge game though, and i think eve has something to do with that.
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RedlegSA
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Posted - 2005.10.03 20:24:00 -
[65]
I remember Elite, it took me forever to figure out how to dock and then I belined to a docking computer since it was a nightmare. It had that song when you docked too - what a fun game, I spent forever with it.
That and Space Vikings for the Apple
Good grief I am old 
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bUBbLeS
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Posted - 2005.10.03 22:04:00 -
[66]
Edited by: bUBbLeS on 03/10/2005 22:04:58
we need thargoids
and yes.. gravity, differnt system types, plaet side space ports, and tactical combat
and thargoids
they rocked
<-- spent 4 yrs straight playing elite...
We consider it something which should be included in the subscription,
because that's what you're paying for:Evolution |
Mitchman
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Posted - 2005.10.03 22:06:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Tenaj
You've all missed the relevant point emerging from this thread, which is that Jack Brimstone (AKA Ian Bell) was, with David Braben, the creator of Elite.
:-O
How do you know?
Elite is the major reason I started with EVE in the first place.
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Istvaan Shogaatsu
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Posted - 2005.10.03 22:08:00 -
[68]
Getting rid of warping through planets is pretty easy. It just requires placing all celestial objects in a star system in a perpendicular elevation positioning scheme. Think of it this way: most solar systems in Eve are flat planes, or close to them. It's just how solar systems function. So no matter where a player may be travelling, he's probably travelling along that flat plane, right?
All you have to do is position all your planets slightly off that plane; perhaps a couple hundred thousand km off and in a direction perpendicular to the plane, so that no possible warp path crosses them, and nobody ever warps through a solid object again.
The scale of things in Eve is a little screwed also, and could use a little hand. Ever since station models were enlarged in the cold war patch, stations have been approaching the size of small moons - it's really disconcerting to zoom out from a station, and see the moon it's orbiting, and they're the same bloody size. I'm not saying shrink stations, I'm saying make planets bloody huge. Better textures too, pls.
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OffBeaT
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Posted - 2005.10.03 23:30:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 02/10/2005 21:59:13
That is like saying that Pac Man is better than EVE, because it had less latency. You cannot say that EVE should have every feature from every game. Games are different, thank god. I hope nobody asks next that EVE needs an Auction House, gnomes, and night elves.
EVE is not Elite, and for good reason does not have a lot of the features in Elite.
And Elite is not 13 years old, its 21 years old. It didn't even come on a floppy, and it ran on the ZX Spectrum (and later the Commodore 64).
Frontier: Elite is not Elite and will never be.
yea, it did alright but elite was a game ahead of its time. saying that she still has a point and ccp should in the next version think on some of these matters somewhat. missiles come too mind when thinking of some kind of realizm too things.
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Nyphur
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Posted - 2005.10.03 23:39:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Pottsey
ôRegardless of how many instructions are sent per second, multiplying ship movement even by ten would create staggering lag problems with the current hardware. Perhaps in the future it will be a viable option and will be reintroduced.ö
Surly itÆs a viable option now as there are or should that be was two other online only spaceship games with manual control of the ships. Both games donÆt suffer from lag while moving.
In theory multiplying ship movement by ten would not create extra data to send. You get the client side to let you move in 3D then the only data you send is the position and speed of the ship. You donÆt need to send all the movements only the start and end position with the speed of the ship.
Neither of those games had the server load of Eve. And I have anticicapted your reply and already discounted that possibility. What you're suggesting wouldn't be free-controlled flight. It would be like you're flying in a straight line, then you turn your ship around but its course and speed don't change until you let go of the key, at which point it changes your heading to the new one. It might be fun for a cruiser pilot but the interceptor pilots wouldn't like it. You would need to send several instructions per second to get smooth movement, with more instructions to maintain smooth movement with increased speed. It's an effect I noticed in a 2D game I used to play, where the lag had increased effect with increased speed of the game because it only sent so many isntructions per second on mvoement. I made a small mod to the server to decrease the speed of ships and ship turning across the board and suddenly everyone noticed the lag didn't appear so bad and the movement was nice and smooth. Of course, a lot of people hated how slow it was ^^.
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Braaage
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Posted - 2005.10.03 23:50:00 -
[71]
Lemme get this straight, your comparing Elite's wireframe, polygon filled graphics to EVE's drop dead to die for absolutely stunning graphics....
I know lets all play EVE in wireframe polygons and see who's left after a week.
___________________________________________
http://www.eve-tutor.com
Picture based tutorial site for EVE-Online
*New - Building an Outpost |
Hans Roaming
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Posted - 2005.10.04 00:18:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Tenaj
Originally by: Hans Roaming
And one of the creators of Elite is playing on Eve, OMG I'm not worthy!!!!!!!!!!
Correct Hans, you're not. I, however, intend to form the church of Jack Brimstone and smite all naysayers until they become 'Mostly harmless'. You may, if you wish, take a minor role in my clergy but I saw him first and I bagsie High Priestess.... You want more then go find your own Deity.
Speak to me oh Brimstone.....Tell me your bidding. (Ore relocation related bidding that is, I don't have much else on the CV I'm afraid)
I challenge that title as I've read the holy scriptures of Elite where in a flash I had an epiphany that made me realise, code comments 4tw.
Seriously, Elite took up loads of my life and I just loved being able to force a jump into witchspace (if I remember right) to fight thargoids.
Outreach Executive
Huzzah Foreign Affairs
Into PVP? Join us to fight some of the best pvpers. |
Nyphur
|
Posted - 2005.10.04 00:42:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Braaage
Lemme get this straight, your comparing Elite's wireframe, polygon filled graphics to EVE's drop dead to die for absolutely stunning graphics....
We're still using polygons, they're just prettier and there are more of them :).
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sonofollo
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Posted - 2005.10.04 03:52:00 -
[74]
elite 4 due in mid to late 2006 the company that makes roller coaster tycoon also has production rights on elite 4 and is in the process of making the game - something to look forward to and it will be multiplayer from whta ive heard
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Indra Sebuchiore
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Posted - 2005.10.04 09:05:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Braaage
Lemme get this straight, your comparing Elite's wireframe, polygon filled graphics to EVE's drop dead to die for absolutely stunning graphics....
Who said anything about that?
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
I'm not saying shrink stations, I'm saying make planets bloody huge. Better textures too, pls.
I couldn't agree more.
__________________________________________
"In girum imus nocte, et consumimur igni."
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QwaarJet
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Posted - 2005.10.04 09:39:00 -
[76]
Quote:
Lemme get this straight, your comparing Elite's wireframe, polygon filled graphics to EVE's drop dead to die for absolutely stunning graphics....
EVE's graphics are well out of date now, and it shows.I certainly do not find them stunning.
"Hobbes, she stepped into the Perimter Of Wisdom.Run!" |
Waldo Barnstormer
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Posted - 2005.10.04 14:08:00 -
[77]
I got eve because I was told it was like Frontier, but though it operates on the same KIND of gameplay, Eve is so so so much more.
Collidable Objects - personally, I'm sick of getting stuck in asteroid fields, now imagine trying to warp anywhere if everything was collidable.
Planets - What the game isn't big enough for you? And you dont need to scoop for fuel on Eve, which is a big bonus I feel
Gravity & Realistic Physics - Megathron: 106 million, Insurace: 30 million, Mods and weapons: 25 million. Crashing and destroying your new, bigger than a skyscraper and about as manouverable as as a frozen hippo battleship into a planet: Priceless
Fly by wire - Go play a flight sim. Ships in Eve aren't meant to work like that as far as a i know. You give your ships instructions from within your pod, not from a*****pit.
Stars and temperatures - No need to scoop fuel, so why would you get close to a star?
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Winterblink
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Posted - 2005.10.04 14:28:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
Getting rid of warping through planets is pretty easy. It just requires placing all celestial objects in a star system in a perpendicular elevation positioning scheme. Think of it this way: most solar systems in Eve are flat planes, or close to them. It's just how solar systems function. So no matter where a player may be travelling, he's probably travelling along that flat plane, right?
Ah, but wouldn't it be interesting if the planet and moon orbits were in motion? Conceivably, planetary alignments could periodically cut off gate-to-gate travel, necessitating a detour say to another planet in order to warp to the other gate.
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Dr Slaughter
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Posted - 2005.10.04 14:46:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Milkminer
Edited by: Milkminer on 03/10/2005 13:54:53
Originally by: Dark Shikari
And Elite is not 13 years old, its 21 years old. It didn't even come on a floppy, and it ran on the ZX Spectrum (and later the Commodore 64).
I miss the ZX Spectrum and Commodore 64 :(
Thoses were the days, life was so simple
I miss the BBC B (well not *really*) which if I remember correctly had a version of Elite on it too (my school's computer class teacher hacked it so it had coloured lines much to our awe at the time). That was all back in the day when Prince Philip's Prestel mailbox was hacked and we all used 1200/75 baud acoustic couplers to play Essex Mud or write email on CiX (guessing.. 1982-86)
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Earthan
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Posted - 2005.10.04 17:16:00 -
[80]
I would love to see Eve more similar to elite or privateer or jumpgate , especially in terms of ship control.( joystick part simulation/arcade) .But its a no way i think with current server limitations .Also it seems more diablo like ship control appeals to much more poeple...
True jumpgates works with joystick and arcade/simulation but it had never comparable umbers of players i think, thats why it can handle it.
*****************************
A solution to gank/to much dmg.Plz read and reply.Make Eve more tactical!!
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Dev Larren
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Posted - 2005.10.04 18:10:00 -
[81]
Ahhh... fond memories of original Elite. Anyone else out there remember the sound-effect as your ship was being torn apart by enemy weapons? It gave a real feeling of imminent destruction.
Commanding Officer
Channel: CAINCOM |
Pottsey
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Posted - 2005.10.04 18:15:00 -
[82]
"Neither of those games had the server load of Eve."
If anything one of the games had a worse server load as the servers are a lot less powerfull then Eve and the total players numbers on at once where not that far behind Eve. It was about 8,000 to 16,000 players at peak split over 4 servers with 4 worlds (I always forget if it was 2 or 4k per sever at peak).
Compared to Eve 1 giant server farm. Eve has far more processing power behind it then those 4 servers. Thinking about it there are 3 online only space games with free movement and none of them have lag problems from movement.
I donÆt think Eve should have free movement but I also donÆt believe lag is the reason it does not have free movement.
EveÆs movement is good how it is though I wish combat and movement was more like Nexus: The Jupiter Incident. I guess movement is not to far off Nexus.
_________________________________________________
Nominate famous people in Eve who had an impact on you. |
Vynos Tyre
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Posted - 2005.10.05 00:54:00 -
[83]
>>/emote mourns the loss of TradeWars... I used to play that game as much as the particular BBSes would per day<<
Man, I miss those days on the BBS's...before the web. Updated my TradeWars games every morning before work.
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Klyten
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Posted - 2005.10.05 05:04:00 -
[84]
I haven't read all the posts in this thread so perhaps someone has said it before - if so, my apologies - but real Newtonian physics (or worse, relativistic) would make PvP unplayable. Think of the HUGE vector differences that would have to be overcome before 2 ships could meet in combat.
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sonofollo
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Posted - 2005.10.05 05:08:00 -
[85]
well dunno what they are putting in elite 4 but from the sounds of it will be very advanced graphic wise and multiplayer potential guess that might be a threat to eves customer numbers hehe
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Lurtz
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Posted - 2005.10.05 08:35:00 -
[86]
Edited by: Lurtz on 05/10/2005 08:36:02
Originally by: Stradivarious
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Afaik, Eve owes more to TradeWars than Frontier.
/emote mourns the loss of TradeWars... I used to play that game as much as the particular BBSes would per day
What loss of TradeWars... some people still run it telnet server...
I know at least 1 person 8-)
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sonofollo
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Posted - 2005.10.05 08:40:00 -
[87]
even the old classic starshiptraders has moved to linux 3d lol
Elite 4 in 2006 should be good though
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Magnum III
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Posted - 2005.10.05 08:50:00 -
[88]
Originally by: sonofollo
ive personally been in contact with the company that is in the process of making elite 4 (which will be ralise sometime in late 2006) its the same company that made rollercoaster tycoon series amoung others they are aiming for a online multiplayer version and a solo single player version
So yeah the old classic is 90% coming back they have even advertised for programmers
I will still play EVE because of the story line. Realy. I lub it. And the stories on this web site are awsome and the news too etc...
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Mister Q
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Posted - 2005.10.05 08:58:00 -
[89]
Talking about physics earlier on in the thread before it was derailed by talk of Elite 4...
...If you want physics you can forget the micro warp drive, kicking a little ship like an inty or frig up to speeds of 4000m/s in a matter of seconds. Not only would the ship probably tear itself apart colliding with a single particle floating in space but the pilot would also be spread around the co*kpit like jello due to that kind of acceleration.
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Magnum III
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Posted - 2005.10.05 08:59:00 -
[90]
Originally by: sonofollo
even the old classic starshiptraders has moved to linux 3d lol
Elite 4 in 2006 should be good though
Elite will probably copy off of EVE Ha Ha, it will be Full circle!
look their is X behond the Frontear Online comming too, does not matter. EVE is way ahead.
And what if those games are grinds?
I hope they bring more people to the online table but Elite has already been copied a bit now they are using Elite the name to get who, EVE player back to them?
The biggest thing is the story line and EVe has got a good one.
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The Shamen
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Posted - 2005.10.05 09:35:00 -
[91]
Frontier was class. But it was a different game. I hope we get a new Frontier game. I heard a whisper we may.
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Lufio II
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Posted - 2005.10.05 09:49:00 -
[92]
well, twitch based games often use some sort of prediction engine to predict how the other characters are mostly to move. I know for sure that Jumpgate did. CS does it as well. That makes you think that you don't have any lags, but smooth movement in multiplayer (only seeing 2 players now) is hardly possible without some sort of prediction engine, as the other players movement will always be a few milliseconds behind. Now multiply this with lots of players in the same vicinity.
I remember battles on the european JG-Server, where there were like 20 to 30 pilots (maybe more, but I honestly cannot remember situations with more than 50 Ships in one spot) involved. Lots of hopping around, no lagging, but ships suddenly beeing elsewhere (like several kilometers behind you) when they just have been under your cross isn't fun as well...
MSSI Forums
Provider of Prorator Blockade Runner Transport Ships in Domain |
Drilla
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Posted - 2005.10.05 10:35:00 -
[93]
Elite Emulator Online
EVE System Security - Killboard |
Snake Jankins
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Posted - 2005.10.05 11:40:00 -
[94]
Edited by: Snake Jankins on 05/10/2005 11:43:17
I've played freelancer some time ago. I played it also online for a few hours. It allowed you to play multiplayer games with a few people. Don't remember how many, maybe 64 or so ? But the problem of network latency and fast moving object was very noticable. The flight path of your enemies was everything else but not smooth or something that seemed physically possible and the true position differed a lot from what you saw.
IMHO at the moment a big fast fleet battle with like 100 players in the same area and precise navigation through 'fly-by-wire' at speeds with up to 4000 m/s is currently not possible. We would need very low network latencies, a lot more bandwith and the servers needed lot more power to handle 15000 players. Technically at least very difficult I think.
And currently the system is not just designed for that. Easy to see, since EVE uses tcp protocol, while every shooter uses udp because of the latency. So a full rewrite of the server code and network stuff would be needed, not only the client interface.
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Pottsey
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Posted - 2005.10.05 12:01:00 -
[95]
ôThe biggest thing is the story line and EVe has got a good one.ö
Elite 3 has a great storyline far better and more detailed then Eve at least it was for me. You even got a book in the game box with just the storyline in it. Then there are the storyline missions which make EveÆs storyline missons look basic. The FMV videos on the BB boards are great to. Elite had tons of small FMV videos like when taking a mission you had a video of a military agent giving you the mission. You had them for everything from Hitchhikers to the police. Each empire had a different feel to it and the atmosphere was great.
The newspaper idea was great to in Elite. The storyline worked very well in Elite 3 and fit into the game perfectly. Player actions drastically changed the storyline and you could only get certain ships by going down path A or path B. Eve could do with borrowing Elite newspaper idea.
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Meer
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Posted - 2005.10.05 12:48:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 02/10/2005 21:59:13
That is like saying that Pac Man is better than EVE, because it had less latency.
Well they both do have the same amount of unique environments. ;)
*that was a joke*
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Thyro
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Posted - 2005.10.05 17:44:00 -
[97]
Edited by: Thyro on 05/10/2005 17:44:49
Originally by: Commander Lock
Elite was a great physics engine, and that was a major part of the gameplay. EVE doesn't need such features, instead it has a superior battle and ....
....
....
....
I've stoped reading there!!!
Superior battle on EVE? You must be joking aren't you?
Since when EVE can hold a battle of 50 ships in one side and another 50 ships in other side?
Well today EVE can hold (without crashing the server). But also you will be in hold for minutes to see your screen refreshed...
After 2 to 5 minutes...
- Hey! I got into battle!
- UHRAhhhh!!!!!
- Hold on BS has a different shape!?!?!
- it looks like a pod!
Now you saying "EVE has superior battle..." my a$$!
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Commander Lock
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Posted - 2005.10.05 18:02:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Thyro
Edited by: Thyro on 05/10/2005 17:44:49
Originally by: Commander Lock
Elite was a great physics engine, and that was a major part of the gameplay. EVE doesn't need such features, instead it has a superior battle and ....
....
....
....
I've stoped reading there!!!
Superior battle on EVE? You must be joking aren't you?
Since when EVE can hold a battle of 50 ships in one side and another 50 ships in other side?
Well today EVE can hold (without crashing the server). But also you will be in hold for minutes to see your screen refreshed...
After 2 to 5 minutes...
- Hey! I got into battle!
- UHRAhhhh!!!!!
- Hold on BS has a different shape!?!?!
- it looks like a pod!
Now you saying "EVE has superior battle..." my a$$!
OK... give me a Panther Clipper, I'll fit a large plasma accelerator and everytime I point it in your direction you die.
You'll be back here whining within seconds.
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Pottsey
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Posted - 2005.10.05 19:53:00 -
[99]
ôOK... give me a Panther Clipper, I'll fit a large plasma accelerator and everytime I point it in your direction you die.ö
ThatÆs assuming you target is still there after you managed to turn, aim and fire. The Panther Clipper was about as a slow as a Freighter to turn and its acceleration and de acceleration is far worse. I believe from a storyline point of few the large plasma accelerator could flatten a city. Its just you never hit anything that moves.
There are two ships that pretty much killed anything they where pointed at the first you got by docking at the Thargoid station and earning a Thargoid warship armed with Thargoid weapons now thatÆs a ship to worry about. Far worse then a Panther Clipper with a large plasma accelerator.
The other deadly ship was the Argent's Quest a pain to get but it was deadly and fast with a massive jump drive range.
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