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Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7856
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Posted - 2013.05.16 05:30:00 -
[31] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:"Possibility of a loss".
Key words there.
How much possibility is there compared to inevitability.
But we can put aside stats and mechanics (get rid of the spreadsheet) and we have to deal with the truth versus perception.
As soon as everybody stops arguing about the truth, as if winning will change it, and starts working to change the perception (a greater possibility) this whole high sec thing is not going to end.
What I'm saying is that if someone wants to destroy you and has the means to do so, they should be able to. The only thing that should ever be up for debate is the means, not whether they should be able to. mine quotes from my posts at your peril, badposters
TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. |
Josef Djugashvilis
Acme Mining Corporation
1211
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 05:51:00 -
[32] - Quote
Dear lord, this is really poor trolling on a subject that has been trolled to death.
Should be locked for lack of content. This is not a signature. |
Josef Djugashvilis
Acme Mining Corporation
1211
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 05:57:00 -
[33] - Quote
Andski wrote:You're not expected to accept x losses per x gains, you're expected to accept the possibility of a loss, period. It's not something you can put in a spreadsheet like every other part of the game, it's just something you accept as a reality of the game.
It's this thing that the wretches cannot accept, and they demand changes that give them perfect safety and allow them to play in their own little bubble, generating massive amounts of ISK to cash out with.
EVE isn't a hellish fragfest like Darkfall and it shouldn't be, but it also shouldn't be Friendship is Magic: Space Adventures. If you can't accept the possibility that somebody somewhere might consider you a target, you're playing the wrong game.
What a startlingly original insight into the game!
Well done Andski, for putting into words such an original thought.
Or has this astute insight been posted many hundreds of times before by many, many posters? This is not a signature. |
dark heartt
I Own Four Sheep Nyratic
261
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 06:03:00 -
[34] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote: I get it why the PvPers are so frustrated by us. I really do.
Problem is, it is my experience, that this is NOT going to go away. ANY attempt to try to get us to accept a higher than "virtually 0" loss is simply going to result in us quitting the game. AND, based on my experience with high sec and null, and the % of players in each of these areas of space, and the play styles in each area, the carebears are a HUGE chunk of teh revenue stream.
I'm not a PvPer, and the mentality behind a carebear frustrates me. People who are so risk adverse they would rather not play the game than be a target have the complete opposite mentality to some other industrialists/miners like myself. I would rather fight than be labelled a carebear, as my mentality on Eve is grounded on the fact that Eve is fundamentally a PVP game.
LHA Tarawa wrote: The simple reality is, the carebears/nullbears are NEVER going to accept even a 10-20% loss in ships as percent of value they mine. It is fundamentally against our nature to play a game where we are easy targets for PvPers.
The bolded part there worries the hell out of me. If it is so 'against your nature' to be a target, why are you playing Eve in the first place? Why are you playing a game branded as being a lawless, harsh environment? I have recently seen some Eve adverts directly saying, "Be the bad guy." When I started playing there was a general knowledge that Eve was a harsh place, unforgiving and forcing you to work hard to make ends meet. When you signed up for an account, you knew that was the case with Eve, and no amount of whining on the forums would change that.
I do agree that there needs to be a degree of safety in highsec, to help new players and even industrialists. But the day highsec becomes totally 100% safe is the day that Eve has lost what it was all about in the first place.
I would also question your knowledge about industrial or mining players. Most of the people I have played with are fully aware of the risks where ever they play, and tend to accept that you might lose a ship. In my experience it is only a very vocal minority that complain about the risks of where they play. Bienator II: "You can identify eve players by looking at their cars. Since they don't drive what they can't afford to lose." I play in highsec. |
Prince Kobol
741
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 06:41:00 -
[35] - Quote
Me thinks everybody in this thread has just been trolled :) |
Darth Kilth
Silver Guardians Fidelas Constans
83
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 07:12:00 -
[36] - Quote
The current situation might not be the best liked by the Indy players, neither do the PVP players always like it.
But you know what they say, a good compromise makes nobody leave happy.
All that is asked of Indy players is that they accept the inevitability they will loose a ship once in a while. All that is asked of PVP players is that they accept they can't always kill who they want.
People who want to have less risk are working against the spirit of the game and wouldn't mind breaking the game so they can have 'fun' People who want to have easier targets under the Indy's are just asking to break the game for their own 'fun'.
PVP players need to accept that not everyone wants to be blown up, especially when they got no chance to fight back. Indy players need to accept that sometimes people want to blow them up, especially when they are flying a defenceless ship. |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
2765
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 07:15:00 -
[37] - Quote
Blast. Trolled again. Why does this keep happening? Why God, WHY?
What ever happened to the good old days with Rick Astley? |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
2477
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 07:16:00 -
[38] - Quote
Prince Kobol wrote:Me thinks everybody in this thread has just been trolled :) I wish this was the case. If you look through the OP's posting history you'll see that he's pretty consistent in his calls for nerfing combat of any sort in high-sec. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
dark heartt
I Own Four Sheep Nyratic
264
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 07:30:00 -
[39] - Quote
Prince Kobol wrote:Me thinks everybody in this thread has just been trolled :)
Take a quick look at LHA's history. He is constantly posting like this. It's not a troll, he actually thinks like that. Bienator II: "You can identify eve players by looking at their cars. Since they don't drive what they can't afford to lose." I play in highsec. |
Myriad Blaze
54
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 07:42:00 -
[40] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote: Low: No one mines, and odds are, that ratter is really bait.
That's why I intend to name my Damnation "not bait". You can feel perfectly safe then ... would I lie to you? On a side note: it's really amazing how much tank you can fit to a Damnation. |
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Tasiv Deka
End-of-Line
72
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 07:50:00 -
[41] - Quote
Well since I can see this thread is going places i have one simple question: "HEY THERE WOULD YOU LIKE TO TALK ABOUT HOMESTUCK?"
There I have now added more content to the post then the op dragging out this overdone argument for the umpteenth time.
Please note I actually kind of agree that there should be one system where no one can target anything... but theres no concord response no gate guns no security at all just a match to see who's disco ship reigns supreme thats system shall be called RAVETOPIA
Final note: i actually do agree with andski. Oh, Do go on... no seriously ive got nothing better to do then listen to all the petty arguments and feeble trolling attempts...-á
The sad thing is i'm not sure if i'm telling the truth. |
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ISD Gallifreyan
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
121
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 07:56:00 -
[42] - Quote
I was multi box high sec I've mining around the first big Goonswarm Ice Interdiction. If you are prepaired, you can deter or avoid most violence in high sec.
Complacency, and AFK will get you killed. But that's a risk that miners take.
I definitely believe the Unlock button is a Consent to PVP button. ISD Gallifreyan Ensign Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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Xen Solarus
Inner 5phere
424
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 08:26:00 -
[43] - Quote
I disagree with most of this. I mean, you talk about PvP, but what your actually talking about is highsec. Thats where the carebears mostly live. They aren't interested in PvP. Its not why they play the game. Thats why they don't ever leave highsec. So what you're actually talking about, is forcing your opinion on those that disagree. Great way to get the majority of the playerbase to unsub. You might as well argue for the complete removal of Concord!
I'd argue that its the nature of so-called PvPers that are mostly to blaim. They've turned lowsec into a wasteland. There is little incentive for highsec carebears to risk this area of space, as the rewards don't match to insane risks. Much easier to stay in highsec. So, these L33T PvPers (read: gatecampers) come into highsec instead, and gank as much as possible. Result? Further reinforcement that carebears should stay in highsec. (Subnote: scaling gateguns would do alot to solve this issue).
Of course, this is usually the point where people start screaming "PvP only game!". I disagree with that too. EvE is great for exactly the reason that it caters to different peoples tastes, from the PvP pirate scumbag to the never-undocking highsec industrialist. Sure, you can start going on about how everything ultimately explodes due to PvP, but thats more a reference to EvE's player driven economy. Highsec is the very heart of this industrial machine, and its full of players that enjoy the game for all the aspects that don't involve them exploding ships.
I'd suggest you go to low and nullsec, where the PvP is supposed to happen. But i guess the main problem is that the guys there shoot back, right? I guess the best kills are the ones on defenceless carebear miners, or people lemming single-file into gatecamps! Post with your main, like a BOSS! |
OmniBeton
OmniBeton Metatech
23
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 08:27:00 -
[44] - Quote
The simple truth is PVPers can't stand easy targets flying next to them, which they can't kill without loosing their ship to CONCORD. Killing (real) PVPers is too hard for you and you got buttraped everytime by them ? Just quit and save us your cries. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14288
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 08:32:00 -
[45] - Quote
What is this? Strawman Mania 2013Gäó? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
baltec1
Bat Country
6449
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 08:40:00 -
[46] - Quote
OmniBeton wrote:The simple truth is PVPers can't stand easy targets flying next to them, which they can't kill without loosing their ship to CONCORD. Killing (real) PVPers is too hard for you and you got buttraped everytime by them ? Just quit and save us your cries.
Simple truth is you will always be a victim. We have our reasons for a war dec but all you want to belive is that we are mindless animals with no goal than to make people quit the game and are too cowardly for something you call real pvp. You are totally disconnected with reality. |
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope Gallente Federation
138
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 08:43:00 -
[47] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:...Low: No one mines, and odds are, that ratter is really bait... No true, I have PI in Lowsec and have run into dozens of miners. The thing is these are remote areas of lowsec... much lower risk.
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Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting Home Front Coalition
459
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 09:13:00 -
[48] - Quote
While I get the obvious sentiments I still agree with OP, in a sense that if he thinks he should aim for 0 losses, he is free to set that objective for himself. Heck, I aim for zero losses too but im my position (lowsec PVE/PVP) it's simply not realistic (and that's fine), but I do try to minimize losses as well.
What I find curious is that often people judge other people on their willingness to undock alone. I'd say it doesn't even matter: what matters is the end result of their gameplay. A carebear from which I can buy replacement ships at a small discount still contributes to the whole Eve experience: those that merely hoard their stuff and grow fat on hisec roids are a different story. I don't see this as a fight between PVP-ers and carebears. I see this as a fight between people willing to contribute to group efforts risking their assets, while solo players rake in slow but steady ISK skirting around every possible danger.
For me the prime source of irritation is that the second group will usually put their own wallets before anything else. They will flee at the slightest hint of danger (wardecs) and won't give a damn about how that affects the group. From a corporate perspective, these capsuleers are pretty damn worthless. It isn't that strange that people risking their necks to achieve group-based objectives, regard these individuals as no more then greedy floating loot bags. The elitism isn't entirely misplaced IMHO. |
Brahan Seer
Electric Sun Associates
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 09:34:00 -
[49] - Quote
No where should be 100% safe from pew pew. Even in stations! |
Lost True
Paradise project
2181
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 09:36:00 -
[50] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:If carebears were willing to lose a 200 million ISK ship, every time they mine 1 billion ISK in ore or grind up a billion ISK in mission rewards, I think the PvPers would not be so angry with them.
The simple truth is, I am not willing to accept even that level of loss. I would rather lose 1 billion ISK in opportunity cost of not undocking rather than lose even a 50 million ISK ship. I can grind up a billion ISK a week, and if I lose a ship every 3 months, it is too much for me. Way, way too much.
I've lost 0 ships in the last 9 months.... yeah, that's just about the right amount of loss.
And, the other carebears I've played the game with (100s), are pretty much in agreement that absolutely 0 loss is pretty much the correct amount.
I get it why the PvPers are so frustrated by us. I really do.
Problem is, it is my experience, that this is NOT going to go away. ANY attempt to try to get us to accept a higher than "virtually 0" loss is simply going to result in us quitting the game. AND, based on my experience with high sec and null, and the % of players in each of these areas of space, and the play styles in each area, the carebears are a HUGE chunk of teh revenue stream.
War Dec: Industry corp gets war decced. PvPers say, come out and fight. What actually happens? No one logs in, or if they do log in, they do not undock. The players drop to NPC corps, or spin up a temp corp and switch to that. Very, very few ships actually go boom becuase of high sec war dec vs. industry corp.
Low: No one mines, and odds are, that ratter is really bait.
Null cloaky camper: Dito the above industrial corp war dec. No one undocks.
Null roaming gang in the area, upto 3 jumps out? Everyone safe's up, and stays safed up for as long as it takes for the roaming gang to leave.
The simple reality is, the carebears/nullbears are NEVER going to accept even a 10-20% loss in ships as percent of value they mine. It is fundamentally against our nature to play a game where we are easy targets for PvPers. 20% of income for the trolls to maybe stop whining? Wut? There is no carebear/pvpr war. There is a trolling like in the other games, no matter what. For now it's a jealosy that some players just do waht they want and doing nothing for the others, while so called PvPers doing most of the stuff because they've told to or because they afraid to be called a carebear. If not that, there will be another reasons for jealousy. It's just how it is - if you doing nothing special - noone cares, but if more ppl start to tell you that you're doing something wrong and began to hate you a little bit - most likely it's because you're doing better than they, or something that they're wanted to, but can't. It's unconscious, but it's just how it is for 80% of ppl.. or for 95% players, because there's much less of successful people.
in 2007 i've thought it's a sci-fi simulator, not an "e-sports" game. I'm not a teenager, how would i like it much? [-á-¦-¦-Ç-â-é-+-+-¦] -£-¦-¦-+-+-+-¦ -¦-+-Ç-+-+-Ç-¦-å-+-Å Transtellar |
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March rabbit
epTa Team Inc.
677
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 09:39:00 -
[51] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:If carebears were willing to lose a 200 million ISK ship, every time they mine 1 billion ISK in ore or grind up a billion ISK in mission rewards, I think the PvPers would not be so angry with them.
if people were willing to give all their stuff to greedy ones there will be no wars over resources. However stupid people don't want to share their wealth
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Akali Kuvakei
Eclipse Navy. Test Alliance Please Ignore
17
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 09:42:00 -
[52] - Quote
Did he say jump?
Oh nvm eve is dying. |
Super spikinator
Hegemonous Conscripts Hegemonous Pandorum
167
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 09:45:00 -
[53] - Quote
Darth Kilth wrote:The current situation might not be the best liked by the Indy players, neither do the PVP players always like it.
But you know what they say, a good compromise makes nobody leave happy.
All that is asked of Indy players is that they accept the inevitability they will loose a ship once in a while. All that is asked of PVP players is that they accept they can't always kill who they want.
People who want to have less risk are working against the spirit of the game and wouldn't mind breaking the game so they can have 'fun' People who want to have easier targets under the Indy's are just asking to break the game for their own 'fun'.
PVP players need to accept that not everyone wants to be blown up, especially when they got no chance to fight back. Indy players need to accept that sometimes people want to blow them up, especially when they are flying a defenceless ship.
I didn't know that you could lose ships spinning them. Or do they become :loose: from the holding fields once in a while and end up flying up against the hanger wall? Or are you lumping the hard working industrialist, who, with their unhealthy attraction to spreadsheets and buy/sell/contract play create ships to be destroyed by the common filth that is those who buy the ships? |
March rabbit
epTa Team Inc.
677
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 09:49:00 -
[54] - Quote
Super spikinator wrote:I didn't know that you could lose ships spinning them. next time you logged in try to undock. you will find amusing universe outside.
serious answer: Indy pilot is more than trading char or job controller.
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Super spikinator
Hegemonous Conscripts Hegemonous Pandorum
167
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 10:05:00 -
[55] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:Super spikinator wrote:I didn't know that you could lose ships spinning them. next time you logged in try to undock. you will find amusing universe outside. serious answer: Indy pilot is more than trading char or job controller.
Only the people gaming the system trading in the various trade systems or investing time and resources into the secondary and above product systems can claim the title industrialist. Calling anyone else an industrialist is like calling someone who works at Starbucks a barista or someone who works at Subway a sandwich artiste. |
Jake Warbird
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2593
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 13:10:00 -
[56] - Quote
PvPers angry with carebears? So you mean lowsec pilots are mad at the hisec griefers? |
Arcelian
House of Praetor R O G U E
6
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 13:21:00 -
[57] - Quote
No one says you have to take out your indy spec'd toon and fight a seasoned PVP player. You do, however, have to accept the fact that players in eve are going to try to blow you up. How you deal with that, is up to you. There's many options.
But you do have to deal with it. That should never change. |
Jame Jarl Retief
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
1138
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 13:23:00 -
[58] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:War Dec: Industry corp gets war decced. PvPers say, come out and fight. What actually happens? No one logs in, or if they do log in, they do not undock. The players drop to NPC corps, or spin up a temp corp and switch to that. Very, very few ships actually go boom becuase of high sec war dec vs. industry corp.
See, if instead of "no one logs in" the carebear response to a wardec was "everyone temporarily quits the game", THEN we would see some changes. Until then, all this is just noise.
Imagine if CCP starts seeing these stats:
Wardec on indy corp -> Entire indie corp quits the game for 1 month, 80% return rate. Wardec on indy corp -> Entire indie corp quits the game for 3 months, 48% return rate. Wardec on indy corp -> Entire indie corp quits the game for 2 months, 94% return rate. Wardec on indy corp -> Entire indie corp quits the game for 1 month, 72% return rate,
How much do you want to bet that pretty soon the game mechanics will change that will make it difficult/impossible to wardec an indy corp?
What's more, as corps temporarily quit, the number of possible targets drops. As number of possible targets drops, PvPers get more and more bored. And some of them may quit, temporarily or permanently, out of sheer boredom due to lack of targets. So a drop in carebear activity will follow by a dip in PvPer activity as well.
Bottom line - don't like it? DO SOMETHING. You have the power. Just look at what the anti-Incarna folks pulled two summers ago, CCP is still so terrified that they can't even say "Incarna" without crossing themselves and spitting over the left shoulder. All carebears in this game have just as much if not more power. |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
1830
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 13:30:00 -
[59] - Quote
It's always funny to me how you have to protect your ego by pre-defining other people as "the enemy". In this case"PVPrs".
Well, what about people like me? People who aren't rabid PVPrs, but who still disagree with everything you post?
I started as a mission runner and only got into pvp of any kind because my buddy fairly dragged me into facitonwar when it started. i enjoyed it, but I'm not one f those "man, must log on to pvp" guys. I mainly PVP'd and FC'd to help my friends/corp/alliance and to "pay my way" so to speak, Only once in my 6 years of playing did I log on, jump itno a ship, jump into low sec and try some solo pvp (it lasted 5.5 minutes lol, damn gate camps. On the average day of playing, i'll slaughter hundreds of NPC ships and not even lock another player's ship.
Most of my EVE experience has been avoiding losing shiny isk making ships to "PVPrs". I have lost a couple (a vindi to an awoxxing in fountain and a mach to neutrals because I was scrammed by a serpentis frig, DEATH TO SERPENTIS).
The difference between me and you, however, is that I EMBRACE what EVE is and has been rather than railing against it. I understand that I'm a PVE player in a PVP world and that it's perfectly normal for people to try to bring PVP to anyone and everoyne in a game that has always had non-consensual pvp as a possibility.
And I understand that the things I'm flying are, in reality, valueless pixels. So while you're hiding in npc corps under the protection of imaginary space police because "mean nasty PVPrs are scary", I'm flying imaginary PIRATE battleships in null sec having fun...
I'll never ever understand people like you. Not because you don't play like me( you DO play like me in that you don't love pvp and try to protect your in-game assets), but because I simply can't grasp the level of panty-twisting FEAR of imaginary loss that you experience, Fear so crippling that it limits how you play a video game (again, YOU yourself have said you'd be in null sec if it weren't for cynos, despite the fact that thousands of us live with the "danger" every day).
I mean damn, I'll bet you've never played a single game of Ms. Pac-Man because you were scared to death of the possibility of a Ghost biting you those stopping your acquisition of pellets...... |
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
1746
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 13:38:00 -
[60] - Quote
There is no fight between carebears and PvPers. It's just forum trolls trolling each other. Sovereignty and Population New Mining Mechanics |
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