Serious and no trolling meant.
Why didn't you use the year gone to train shields? If there is a more efficient way to do something which is proving better why not move over to it? if CCP then nerf that and make armour better you can just switch back.
CCP don't do FOTM they seem to like FOTY more... from my own experience you're better just moving to what works best and using it then expecting them to ever fix something they broke.

Shields ability to 1 slot tank Incursions is killing armour Incursion balance

Yeas, cos the easiest way in the game to get endless ISK definitely need a buff...

ARMOR: Faster movement (easier to fit Prop) + utility like dual Webs/TP/etc at a lower DPS output. EHP can be lower.

fit TCs instead of webs/painters

then you're only helping yourselves :D

TC's fit in low slots which are filled with tank & DPS mods for armour. How about a specialized mid slot DPS mod CCP? You Gave shields a low slot tracking enhancer with the TC where's the reciprocity?

Alot of good dual webs/P does in a competition when it also helps the the competition

C6 Magnetar exploiting hypocrite.

lol...

a.) that was 3 years ago
b.) was fixed 3 years ago
c.) i wasnt in this corp 3 years ago
d.) even with the exploit, incursions are still a far easier and steadier income source

To be fair you did say easier and not better, but we all know that wormholes is where the ISK is.

TC's TE's fit in low slots which are filled with tank & DPS mods for armour. How about a specialized mid slot DPS mod CCP? You Gave shields a low slot tracking enhancer with the TC where's the reciprocity?

edit: FIXED

2/10.

One slot, seriously?

It's literally beyond impossible to 1-slot tank and Incursion. The only REAL difference between the types is this:

2/10.

One slot, seriously?

I also go back to my point of saying if shield is so much better... use it!

Alot of good dual webs/P does in a competition when it also helps the the competition .
The prop helps only in 1 Vanguard: NCO's really (& once in a blue moon OTAs if and only if the armour fleet has a 1 spawn head start.). Prop mods don't help in assaults nor HQs

Ok Darth... against my better judgement I'm going to try to explain to you why you think the armor vs. shield argument is valid but in reality it is not.

First off a few things about your community, The Ditanian Fleet and Born Ara.

1. You have low standards for ships/fittings.
a) One time to prove a point to a friend that TDF was bad I linked a guardian fit with a full meta 1 fit with medium reppers, I was promptly invited to fleet and asked to join on grid and I didn't turn on a single rep the whole time, being as I was the 3rd guardian on grid, no one noticed.
b) You allow tech 1 battleships into your fleets without tech 2 guns.

2. TDF and Born Ara are both full of typical Eve players. All the FC's/Officers of TDF throw their weight around like their something special, (ETS Jammer is the only well adjusted normal human being in the whole bunch IMO) they all go on and on about fittings and their amazing amount of knowledge they have with incursions and incursion mechanics, (when in actuality they are all fairly bad at ship fittings and have limited knowledge about optimal fleet setups) and most of the FC's are just downright egomaniacs.

More power to you guys for running an armor community like this, have fun and enjoy your PvE. However if you are going to continue to argue about how armor is soooooo broken compared to shield for incursion fleets then you had better be running optimal setups like 90% of the shield fleets are.

Now... I took ship setups from the major shield fleets for the Vindicator and Machariel, VG and HQ fits, and checked the numbers on the best fits. Then I setup armor ships to compare the numbers.

Vindicator
Shield VG
EHP: 60,110
Resists
EM: 60.7
Therm: 57.5
Kin: 68.1
Expl: 73.4
DPS: 1582
Optimal + Falloff: 6.4 + 23
Tracking: 0.12927

Armor VG
EHP: 71,396
Resists
EM: 67.0
Therm: 57.1
Kin: 57.1
Expl: 56.1
DPS: 1582
Optimal + Falloff: 6.4 + 23
Tracking: 0.15327

The HQ Vindicator fit and Machariel VG and HQ fits match up basically the same as those fits.

I checked the numbers on the Basilisk vs. Guardian and the results are about the same. I'm sure Scimitar vs. Oneiros is much the same as well.

Another huge bonus to running an armor fleet is the Legion, which I have numbers on but seeing as the Tengu is not used in most high end shield incursion communities I won't post the numbers to compare, needless to say having a cruiser hull with decent EHP and amazing applied DPS to frigate hulls is a massive addition to any VG fleet.

Armor fits are calculated with a high grade Slave set, which is the major bonus of running any armor setup. If you want to whine about having to buy implants to compete (which I'm guessing you will) you need to realize that the invulnerability field that shield fleets use to get those resists/EHP is roughly the cost of a full low-grade Slave set + deadspace EANM. Also if there was a shield slave set, how many shield communites would be rocking it?

So what's my point with all this jibba jabba?

Since the death of the blitz fleet, the armor incursion community has been at a stand still whining about the VG nerf. Shield fleets have taken off running and adapted to the changes and made the most of it. TDF needs to take a long hard look at how efficient they run their community before posting anything about shield vs. armor incursion balance.

When your balance argument is "The people who use the things I use are just superior players, unlike our competitors who are just bads" it is a good indication you are wrong.

You did a great job of convincing me that Armor fleets need a buff.

Corpum A-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Tracking Enhancer II

Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computer, Tracking Speed Script
Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Script
Shadow Serpentis Sensor Booster, Scan Resolution Script

Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Imperial Navy Large Energy Transfer Array
Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Drone Link Augmentor II

Large Energy Collision Accelerator II
Large Energy Discharge Elutriation I

Garde II x3

Except he's right. Armour fleets are fine, and I fly in one. The actual 'problem' armour fleets face is one of perception. This perception is based on a few things;

1. There are few pilots and even fewer FCs in the armour communities.
2. Because of 1, the handful of fleets that do get running are forced to take ****-fit T1 battleships with meta4 guns and only 1-2 damage mods because their pilots have to over-tank due to poor skills and lack of OGBs. They also frequently have 3 logis, further reducing their damage potential.
3. Because of 2, most armour fleets actually ARE crap.
4. Because of 3, pilots and FCs leave to shield fleets (this causes 1, and it continues)
5. Because of 4, shield fleets have a much larger pool of pilots to recruit from and can afford to only take the shiny ships piloted by pilots with good skills.
6. Because of 5, shield fleets actually ARE better, and so the myth-fact is continued.

Self fulfilling prophecy. Shield fleets are literally better because they are perceived to be better. The few times I've been in a fleet with proper OGBs and a good fleet makeup, we won every contest of the sites (VGs because 1) and we were pushing 4 minute pay to pay times.

Until armour fleets are perceived to be better than shields, they will continue to be worse than shields. People like Darth constantly shouting about how CCP hate armour are just making the problem worse, especially when they use selectively cherry-picked incorrect claims to do it. A ship with an invul field and 3 rigs is NOT a 1-slot tank. It is a 4-slot tank.

So everyone is doing shield, but armor is totally better. But all the best players run shield fleet.

RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT.

Also, your fitting is **** because it is basically "Look, I can make a good armor tank with a 5 billion isk budget". It is ~3 bill just for the ship, plus another billion or two in implants.

Sans implants it does a respectable 1070 DPS (20/17) with a terrible 63k EHP.

You ignored drone DPS on my fit, while using it on yours. (1070 gun DPS on pally, 855 gun DPS on geddon)
2 slot tank versus 7 slot tank.
6 damage mods versus 4 damage mods.
No tracking mods at all on your geddon. (giving you just over HALF the tracking on the Paladin)
20% longer lock times on your geddon
Large thermal hole on your geddon.
Only 4 minutes of cap on your geddon.
Fitting mods on your geddon.

Look out folks, we've got a class-1 EFT warrior here.

The entire point of the post was making fun of your EFT Warrior'ing.

Congratulations at totally missing the point.


List of things that matter for EFT Whores and don't in game:]
2 slot tank versus 7 slot tank.
6 damage mods versus 4 damage mods.
Fitting mods on your geddon.

By your "logic" if I could shoe horn 5k DPS and 200 K HP but it took 5 slots to tank, 8 damage mods and 2 fitting mods it would be terrible. This is why your posts are counter productive to your "cause". Because you are bad at this game and posting.

Here is a Paladin fit that reaches 1400dps (6% implants), has 110,532 eHP (using only low-grade slaves in 1-5, no Omega, and an OGB Legion w/ mindlink) and 2 tanking mods. Please note; THIS IS AN ACTUAL 2-SLOT TANK.

I am calling you out on that BS fit:
WTF are the resistances on that ??? Its sig radius + explosive hole are HUGE!!!
POOF!

He basically requires a full set of HG implants, and a full minklinked Damnation for make it work.

Resists: 77.6 / 70.8% / 70.6% / 73.1%
Armour HP: 18688 (no implants)
eHP: 92,213

WHAT explosive hole? The sig radius is quite large, but that is an unfortunate side-effect of being a marauder.



Implants aren't required, they just make it better. Yes, I have an OGB, why wouldn't I use it?

explosive 73.1? really? 92k paladin in my experience is trouble!

It gets 20+17km range with IN MF and with Scorch gives 1142 DPS at 59+17kms. High Grade slaves give it 129,347 eHP, this is MORE than enough for logis to keep you up. Heck, you could spider tank this with no logis, although this will never happen due to :lazy:

My EFT warrioring that is backed up by actually HAVING those implants and a perfect OGB alt w/ mindlink? My EFT warrioring that has actually been in a fleet of those Paladins and seen what they can do?

It actually didn't get nerfed this much. The difference is mostly that people know what to shoot first and logis with 1000+ sites on her back are in a position where everything but wtf moments are boring daily routine.

As example I am pretty sure that halve of the logis where semi afk as I lost a mega with T1 fitting and massive EM/Termal holes in non existing buffer during a Assault site. I can tell for sure that the 2 logis I know and I got overloaded reps on this thing even before he did manage to push the broadcast button(the armor jumped back and forth like crazy).

Incoming dps got nerfed by a huge amount, both during the move from Sisi to live and post live. If you didn't notice, it's just that you jumped on the bandwagon later on after it's easy.

Here is a Paladin fit that reaches 1400dps (6% implants), has 110,532 eHP (using only low-grade slaves in 1-5, no Omega, and an OGB Legion w/ mindlink) and 2 tanking mods. Please note; THIS IS AN ACTUAL 2-SLOT TANK.



It gets 20+17km range with IN MF and with Scorch gives 1142 DPS at 59+17kms. High Grade slaves give it 129,347 eHP, this is MORE than enough for logis to keep you up. Heck, you could spider tank this with no logis, although this will never happen due to :lazy:

HQ's .100k tank with OGB is absolutely fine ( Granted you trained your logis ) .
VG's .60k tank with OGB is absolutely fine ( Granted you trained your logis ) .

Back in the days of mixed gangs I literally had untanked, semi afk logis to work with and tons of ships with super slim buffers and massive resistance holes. I even multi boxed(logi+dps+fc) this gangs just to get something running. The reason why Incursion is easy this days is that you work mostly with good setups and people that know what they are doing.

How much could a logi handle back in the days? I know I could only do halve of what I can do today. Current standard on a good logi pilot is 2.5-3k DPS per logi, if you really push it(you can do VGs without even use heat as a single logi). If you compare this to normal setups that people used back in the day, it is 50-100% more RR done per logi with pilots in them that can manage to catch even drones or non posters in HQ fleets.

Bottom line is, if you compare logis back in the days to current ones, it is like comparing apples to oranges, since incursion logis with routine are not just a little better than the people back in the days, they can handle a lot more dps and are fluid enough that glass cannon setups became no issue at all.

It's literally beyond impossible to 1-slot tank and Incursion. The only REAL difference between the types is this:

SHIELD: Higher DPS output (if) there are enough in fleet with free mids for Webs. EHP must be slightly higher due to Sig bloom.

ARMOR: Faster movement (easier to fit Prop) + utility like dual Webs/TP/etc at a lower DPS output. EHP can be lower.

Those same numbers don't really apply to Armour since the reps land later

This is all rather misleading, the emphasis should be on how much 'Shield' or 'Armor' you have, total EHP is useless in terms of logistics. I run with 12k shield, as that is the only part my logi can fix it is also the only part I put my emphasis on. I know with 70% resist that I can take approximately a 30k(room)volley before I need to panic: in a room that is producing 3k to 5k (Room)dps that gives me 3 seconds to broadcast and the logis have 4 to 8 seconds to get reps on me.

The same is true for armor but add the 3 to 4 seconds for the cycles to finish. So by that supposition I would say armor needs and extra 3 second buffer to compensate for the cycle time, or an additional 1k armor for every 3k (Room) DPS per second of buffer needed.
.

If it make you feel better darth CCP is nerf batting Shield ships with the TE nerf. Armor should be happy now that your scripted TC ships just jumped ahead in the game a bit.

Also lets not forget on and armor BS ship you have 10-15k of shield buffer to give your logi time to get you locked and repped. If a shield ship isn't locked and repped before it runs into armor it can be a bad day for the pilot a good portion of the time.

snip
MUCH worse then the shield fleets thanks to thier stonger abilities to fit more low slot damage mods & TE's;due to the added crusier/BS NPC eHP(especially the MARA in OTAs (which seemed to remote repair itself) that got taken out/FIXED becuase the Wall of OTA screams for 3 months ) & taking out of triggers, creating a spiral of lowering of numbers and skills.

If it make you feel better darth CCP is nerf batting Shield ships with the TE nerf. Armor should be happy now that your scripted TC ships just jumped ahead in the game a bit.

Also lets not forget on and armor BS ship you have 10-15k of shield buffer to give your logi time to get you locked and repped. If a shield ship isn't locked and repped before it runs into armor it can be a bad day for the pilot a good portion of the time.

This is all rather misleading, the emphasis should be on how much 'Shield' or 'Armor' you have, total EHP is useless in terms of logistics. I run with 12k shield, as that is the only part my logi can fix it is also the only part I put my emphasis on. I know with 70% resist that I can take approximately a 30k(room)volley before I need to panic: in a room that is producing 3k to 5k (Room)dps that gives me 3 seconds to broadcast and the logis have 4 to 8 seconds to get reps on me.

The same is true for armor but add the 3 to 4 seconds for the cycles to finish. So by that supposition I would say armor needs and extra 3 second buffer to compensate for the cycle time, or an additional 1k armor for every 3k (Room) DPS per second of buffer needed.

I thought it quite amusing that I could use a ship with a damage control and 1 em rig (with ogb) and still tank fine for vanguards using shield logi ofc.
Not sure what armour people are complaining about. If armour and shield reps functioned the same at the beginning of the cycle armour would become way too overpowered.

Maybe if armour reps had a reduced cycle time but a reduced rep amount to keep them balanced at least reps could be applied quicker.

Armor has about the same potential as shield.

Its time to grow some balls and start min-maxing Armor fits. but i guess thats to scary so lets fly with 3 logi aswel so we dont loose our over tanked ships.

WHERE DID THE LEGION FLEETS GO ?

Legion fleets left the building because CCP screwed them by effing with the fleet compostitions of NPCs thus nerfing Vanguards & essentially leaving HQ sites as they were for the Escalation nerf.

I guess I just like to fight the power.
But really should 1 tank have such an advantage in PvE while the other has just a slight advantage in PvP?

Its time to grow some balls and start min-maxing Armor fits. but i guess thats to scary so lets fly with 3 logi aswel so we dont loose our over tanked ships.

I'm hoping that the Paladin's tracking bonuses will put it closer to par with the NM as an effective armour Incursion ship but its sig radius still makes it squish as heck.

Unlike the naysayers I totally agree with the OP. Nightmares can easily fit 1 mid-slot + 1 rig tank for VGs or 1 mid + 1 low + 1 rig for AS or HQ. And you don't need LSE since shield xfers rep immediately.

You do understand that armor reps need to cycle before they rep, right?

Nightmare with 1 Pithum A-type Invulnerability Field and 1 Large Core Defence Field Extender II, as well as perfect Tengu Boosts:
Resists: 59.9/67.9/75.9/79.9
Shield eHP: 55,302
Total eHP: 83,338

Um... a single low slot is enough to tank a Paladin in Vanguards, but lets go ahead and give numbers for a single low and a rig.

Paladin with 1 Corelum A-type EANM and 1 Large Trimark Armour Pump II, with perfect Legion boosts... and SLAVES:
Resists: 77.6/70.8/70.6/73.1
Armour eHP: 74,677
Total eHP: 103,491

Note please that the Paladin has about 25% more total eHP, and almost 50% more armour eHP than the Nightmare has shield eHP. Take the rig out and the Paladin still beats the Nightmare. Also, please note that the Nightmare has a huge EM hole, where the paladin has all its resists over 70.

1 slot tank on the Paladin beats a 2 slot tank on the Nightmare. WHY ARE WE STILL CONTINUING THIS THREAD!?

Wrong rig: put an anti-EM rig, no shiny NM flies with CDFE.

I do agree though that 2-mid-slot + DCU looks a lot better on a NM. Anti-Therm rig + EM amp + A-type invul + boosts yields >80% resists across the board.

Paladin's what? *chokes*

EM-rig changes the numbers, but the Paladin is still better with only the EANM.

C6 Magnetar exploiting hypocrite.

As much as I sympathise with the plight of the armour community I keep asking myself; GÇÿSelf, why is this a problem? People donGÇÖt use shields for a lot of things, and those same people donGÇÖt use armour for other things.GÇÖ

For instance I donGÇÖt use the newspaper to wipe my ass nor do I expect to read my toilet paper for the news, get the right tool for the job, if it isnGÇÖt working most likely you are using the wrong tool.

Trouble with this is that armour was competitive until CCP nerfed them in Escalation a year ago, the tool analogy doesn't fit because the toll was once viable now its almost not thanks to a crappy re(un)balance Face it shield HQ fleets are now the preEscalation equivents of the Legion VG fleets & assaults were made even crappier with the Escalation nerf... CCP get rid of the @#$!! NCN or take out a middle room of the NCNs
The MOM should be buffed so a ~35 man multibox fleet doesn't kill it so easily too. ADD some Niarja frigate waves.

There's 2 variables to this problem:

1. Your community is bad at EVE
2. Your community armor tanks

Guess which one causes you to suck at incursions...

Darth, you have been proven wrong. Please stop blameing ccp for your failure in leadership

How did that only hurt armor but not shield?

It hurt both but it hurt armour drastically worse