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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 27 post(s) |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14674
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 21:16:00 -
[91] - Quote
CCP Explorer wrote:Tippia wrote:So what's with all the dev answers? Is it post-patch spring break and they finally let you roam free? Yes, the summer expansion is out and it's a while until winter comes. I fully expect a Hilmar-as-Eddard GoT photoshop or promo remake as we're getting closer to the winter patch thenGǪ
GǪor has that already happend? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
AtomYcX
Cold Moon Destruction. Transmission Lost
22
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Posted - 2013.06.08 21:19:00 -
[92] - Quote
Forgive me if I've missed something but why can't you just throw a bit more hardware at the Jita node? Surely if it's hitting the limit the sensible option would be to beef up the hardware behind that particular node until you can handle the required load? Or is it actually the case that you've hit a limitation in the code that handles ships in space, and it's not a hardware issue?
Not a direct comparison but if the company I work at decided to limit the number of concurrent users connected to our system rather than fix the underlying bottleneck, be it software or hardware, we'd have a lot of angry customers. |
Haulie Berry
992
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 21:25:00 -
[93] - Quote
AtomYcX wrote:Forgive me if I've missed something but why can't you just throw a bit more hardware at the Jita node? Surely if it's hitting the limit the sensible option would be to beef up the hardware behind that particular node until you can handle the required load? Or is it actually the case that you've hit a limitation in the code that handles ships in space, and it's not a hardware issue?
Not a direct comparison but if the company I work at decided to limit the number of concurrent users connected to our system rather than fix the underlying bottleneck, be it software or hardware, we'd have a lot of angry customers.
Neverminding the fact that the nature of the issue probably makes that impractical, what do you imagine this looking like?
Say they could just linearly scale the node with more hardware. Then what?
They up the population cap, more people go into Jita, now it needs more hardware.
Keep adding hardware until it can support the entire population of Eve concurrently?
Obviously that's impractical.
There's really nothing wrong with Jita. There are a number of entitled kiddies who think that their desire to go to Jita should trump all other concerns, but that's a personal problem. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14674
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 21:25:00 -
[94] - Quote
AtomYcX wrote:Forgive me if I've missed something but why can't you just throw a bit more hardware at the Jita node? Surely if it's hitting the limit the sensible option would be to beef up the hardware behind that particular node until you can handle the required load? Or is it actually the case that you've hit a limitation in the code that handles ships in space, and it's not a hardware issue? I think it's more that history has shown that it's not a sustainable solution. Throw more hardware at it and people fill it up again, so you have to throw more hardware at it, so people fill it upGǪ
GǪand soon, you have an EVE cluster where 90% of the investment is in the Jita node and everything else is languishing. Instead, they seem to be focusing on solutions that help all systems, and Jita in particular, by improving the performance of the kind of work that slows that node down.
Do you want to throw increasingly large amounts of money at the diminishing returns that more hardware offer, just to solve this unsolvable problem for one system, or do you learn from that one system and improve your code in a way that benefits the entire cluster? The whole GÇ£brain in a boxGÇ¥ solution should help any part of the game where there's a lot of pilot set-ups going on (e.g. large fleet jumps/warp-ins and systems with lots of undocking and jumpingGǪ such as Jita), and while the work done for that certainly costs as well, it is a more long-term solution that affects much more than just a single solar system. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Circumstantial Evidence
66
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 21:26:00 -
[95] - Quote
On the subject of "nerf chat," I think some players are trying to point out that marketers are drawn to the largest population and audience for their wares. Chat spam makes some people isk due to the large number of players reading it, but the repetition and sheer amount of it annoys legions of others. The goal is not to restrict local chat by some method, with intention of reducing server load just from chat, but to restrict chat so spam-bots have less reason to be there.
Chribba has posted studies of Jita chat patterns, and found that most of it comes from a relatively small number of abusers... so even on that basis of argument, a handful of spam-bots deciding Jita is no longer worth the trouble and leaving in the face of hypothetical chat restrictions, would not reduce system load very much.
(But it would make a lot of people happier if they DID leave.) |
Obunagawe
130
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 21:28:00 -
[96] - Quote
AtomYcX wrote:Forgive me if I've missed something but why can't you just throw a bit more hardware at the Jita node? Surely if it's hitting the limit the sensible option would be to beef up the hardware behind that particular node until you can handle the required load? Or is it actually the case that you've hit a limitation in the code that handles ships in space, and it's not a hardware issue?
Not a direct comparison but if the company I work at decided to limit the number of concurrent users connected to our system rather than fix the underlying bottleneck, be it software or hardware, we'd have a lot of angry customers.
Jita is apparently single-threaded and already running on a i7 with 5GHz and 64GB RAM. They'd have to work out some way to make it multi-threaded and that will never happen.
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Suicidal Blonde
Alchemical Aquisitions
52
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 21:35:00 -
[97] - Quote
Tippia wrote:AtomYcX wrote:Forgive me if I've missed something but why can't you just throw a bit more hardware at the Jita node? Surely if it's hitting the limit the sensible option would be to beef up the hardware behind that particular node until you can handle the required load? Or is it actually the case that you've hit a limitation in the code that handles ships in space, and it's not a hardware issue? I think it's more that history has shown that it's not a sustainable solution. Throw more hardware at it and people fill it up again, so you have to throw more hardware at it, so people fill it upGǪ GǪand soon, you have an EVE cluster where 90% of the investment is in the Jita node and everything else is languishing. Instead, they seem to be focusing on solutions that help all systems, and Jita in particular, by improving the performance of the kind of work that slows that node down. Do you want to throw increasingly large amounts of money at the diminishing returns that more hardware offer, just to solve this unsolvable problem for one system, or do you learn from that one system and improve your code in a way that benefits the entire cluster? The whole Gǣbrain in a boxGǥ solution should help any part of the game where there's a lot of pilot set-ups going on (e.g. large fleet jumps/warp-ins and systems with lots of undocking and jumpingGǪ such as Jita), and while the work done for that certainly costs as well, it is a more long-term solution that affects much more than just a single solar system.
You've mentioned this Brain in a box a couple of times. Have you any links? Enquiring but lazy minds want to know. |
Anti-social Tendencies
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
29
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 21:39:00 -
[98] - Quote
CCP Explorer wrote:Tippia wrote:Nah. It's a good mix of performance and accessibility as it is. This. If we up the limit then Time Dilation starts to kick in more aggressively than it does now. It will with the current limit drop to 80% approx. every 15 minutes on average during peak hour.
I saw a suggestion the other day I liked . Just create an inactivity timer for the Jita system only. Log out those characters that have been in a station with no activity for an hour. You could do it just for Jita 4-4.
"Patience: n, a minor form of despair, disguised as a virtue." - AMBROSE PIERCE |
Anti-social Tendencies
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
29
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 21:42:00 -
[99] - Quote
CCP Explorer wrote:You would be absolutely right. Market, contracts and chat are on other nodes. The load in Jita is primarily traffic related, pilots docking/undocking/jumping-in/jumping-out.
Then disregard my post above.
"Patience: n, a minor form of despair, disguised as a virtue." - AMBROSE PIERCE |
Condrad Antollare
Nanite Research
1
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 21:44:00 -
[100] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Amarr is only like 8 jumps away.
I'm pretty sure you missed the point, this thread is about getting into Jita, not Amarr - Please read before posting. |
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Dave Stark
3121
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 21:47:00 -
[101] - Quote
Condrad Antollare wrote:Malcanis wrote:Amarr is only like 8 jumps away. I'm pretty sure you missed the point, this thread is about getting into Jita, not Amarr - Please read before posting.
and the solution is to move to amarr. i think you missed the point. |
NEONOVUS
Saablast Followers
444
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 21:47:00 -
[102] - Quote
What is this brain in a box thing? Is CCP going to actually make a neural computer? All those poor hamsters, their brains given to science GLORIOUS SCIENCE!!! |
Adunh Slavy
934
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 21:49:00 -
[103] - Quote
Maybe just start doing some deals in permiter |
Condrad Antollare
Nanite Research
1
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 21:53:00 -
[104] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Condrad Antollare wrote:Malcanis wrote:Amarr is only like 8 jumps away. I'm pretty sure you missed the point, this thread is about getting into Jita, not Amarr - Please read before posting. and the solution is to move to amarr. i think you missed the point.
How does this make sense?
That is not a solution is a substitute. |
Haulie Berry
992
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 21:55:00 -
[105] - Quote
Condrad Antollare wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Condrad Antollare wrote:Malcanis wrote:Amarr is only like 8 jumps away. I'm pretty sure you missed the point, this thread is about getting into Jita, not Amarr - Please read before posting. and the solution is to move to amarr. i think you missed the point. How does this make sense? That is not a solution is a substitute.
The fact that you cannot get into Jita is a problem for you.
It's not a problem in general.
So, you should find some solution to it for yourself. |
Condrad Antollare
Nanite Research
1
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 21:58:00 -
[106] - Quote
Haulie Berry wrote:Condrad Antollare wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Condrad Antollare wrote:Malcanis wrote:Amarr is only like 8 jumps away. I'm pretty sure you missed the point, this thread is about getting into Jita, not Amarr - Please read before posting. and the solution is to move to amarr. i think you missed the point. How does this make sense? That is not a solution is a substitute. The fact that you cannot get into Jita is a problem for you. It's not a problem in general. So, you should find some solution to it for yourself.
I have, you've seen this post right? Raising awareness. |
Dave Stark
3121
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 21:58:00 -
[107] - Quote
Condrad Antollare wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Condrad Antollare wrote:Malcanis wrote:Amarr is only like 8 jumps away. I'm pretty sure you missed the point, this thread is about getting into Jita, not Amarr - Please read before posting. and the solution is to move to amarr. i think you missed the point. How does this make sense? That is not a solution is a substitute.
because they're both trade hubs, so if you can't get in to 1 hub to do your business, move to another hub where you can do your business.
you're not there to mine or mission, as far as i'm aware all of the agents and belts were removed, so it's kinda obvious you're there to trade. |
Haulie Berry
992
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 21:59:00 -
[108] - Quote
Personally, I think they should drop the sec status of all Jita-border systems to .5 and remove all gate proximity restrictions from smartbombs, there. |
Dave Stark
3121
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 22:00:00 -
[109] - Quote
Haulie Berry wrote:Personally, I think they should drop the sec status of all Jita-border systems to .5 and remove all gate proximity restrictions from smartbombs, there.
rancer mk2. |
Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
485
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 22:10:00 -
[110] - Quote
Tippia wrote:AtomYcX wrote:Forgive me if I've missed something but why can't you just throw a bit more hardware at the Jita node? Surely if it's hitting the limit the sensible option would be to beef up the hardware behind that particular node until you can handle the required load? Or is it actually the case that you've hit a limitation in the code that handles ships in space, and it's not a hardware issue? I think it's more that history has shown that it's not a sustainable solution. Throw more hardware at it and people fill it up again, so you have to throw more hardware at it, so people fill it upGǪ GǪand soon, you have an EVE cluster where 90% of the investment is in the Jita node and everything else is languishing. Instead, they seem to be focusing on solutions that help all systems, and Jita in particular, by improving the performance of the kind of work that slows that node down. Do you want to throw increasingly large amounts of money at the diminishing returns that more hardware offer, just to solve this unsolvable problem for one system, or do you learn from that one system and improve your code in a way that benefits the entire cluster? The whole Gǣbrain in a boxGǥ solution should help any part of the game where there's a lot of pilot set-ups going on (e.g. large fleet jumps/warp-ins and systems with lots of undocking and jumpingGǪ such as Jita), and while the work done for that certainly costs as well, it is a more long-term solution that affects much more than just a single solar system.
In the mean time, adjust the transaction taxes according to the amount of good traded in the system. It act as an isk sink and figh the current concentration of trade. Lets be honest, "Jita is laggy as ****" is definately not a good incentive to trade elsewhere or we would have the problem in the first place anyway. Seeding a new market is useless if you have nothing better to offer than "it's not in the cesspit of Jita". The afk hauling remove most of the "it's closer" argument and you can't set lower price since you would be eating the hauling price from Jita to the new market all while hoping your new place catch on. The numbers elsewhere are clear,. people would rather be in oaded Jita than Amarr for example. |
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Ioci
Bad Girl Posse Somethin Awfull Forums
402
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 22:12:00 -
[111] - Quote
CCP Explorer wrote:Tippia wrote:Nah. It's a good mix of performance and accessibility as it is. This. If we up the limit then Time Dilation starts to kick in more aggressively than it does now. It will with the current limit drop to 80% approx. every 15 minutes on average during peak hour.
Gobble-de-goop
Still, I like the Perimeter Insta. Lower the bar! R.I.P. Vile Rat |
I Need PLEX
State War Academy Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 22:19:00 -
[112] - Quote
WTS two slots in Jita- I will log off both my market guys immediately upon receiving 2b to this characters wallet if you spam 'enter' you'll get in |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14677
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 22:21:00 -
[113] - Quote
Suicidal Blonde wrote:You've mentioned this Brain in a box a couple of times. Have you any links? Enquiring but lazy minds want to know. I've tried to look for it in some dev posts or blogs, but can't find it. It's entirely possible that it has only been discussed at fanfest, which would make searching a lot more horrible. If you look through any of the presentations where CCP Veritas shows up from FF2013 (and possible FF2012), it should pop upGǪ but I can't remember which ones it is, unfortunately.
Basically, from what I understand (and I'm sure some dev will come in and correct a bunch of details) the problem is that setting up a character in-game is fairly processing-intensive. It means collecting all the character data, looking up what all the skills do, checking for implants, looking up what they do, looking up what your ship and all your equipment does, mixing and matching levels to skills to bonuses to attributes to implants to [etc]GǪ and from this GǣbrainGǥ create Ze Pilot as a coherent object to be manipulated in the world. This has to happen every time a pilot enters a node and every time the state of that pilot changes: jumping into a system, undocking, joining a fleet. In large fleets, this massive workload creates issues because on the FC's command, a thousand such brains need to be initialised in rapid succession when they are hotdropped into a fight or when they jump through a gate. Likewise, with the [bleep]ton of people constantly jumping into and undocking in Jita, that's a silly amount of GǣbrainsGǥ that need to be figured out, applied, and set up as pilot-objects every second.
What brain-in-a-box is meant to do is allow the server to side-load all that work. The system node says Gǣoh, hey, this pilot just undocked, give me his statsGǥ, and a separate server does all the above calculations, collects the results in a neat and easy-to-handle Gǣbox,Gǥ and hands it back to the node for further processing. As a best-case scenario, that ready-made brain-in-a-box can be saved between sessions, so when the character jumps from system to system to system, and nothing happens to them, that brain can be saved and just be handed off to the next node without any need for calculations at all. The system node, in turn, then GǣonlyGǥ has to do the work of tracking the stats of that object as it moves around, activates modules, is shot at and generally gets up to no good. But those are constant, small-scale events that are made easy to handle by TiDi, wheras the whole Gǣomg, I have to set up a thousand pilotsGǥ task is a huge spike of one-time computation-intensive work that makes the whole system come to a standstillGǪ and TiDi just makes it stand still for longer until everything is set up in good order.
It's a different kind of load that requires a different kind of solution. It's not something that's all that well served by simply having more hardware GÇö it's a load spike, and more oomph still means spikes, but with more idling in-between. That said, what it should do is allow them to get more out of hardware improvements: it's essentially a multi-threading of the tasks the node has historically had to handle, with one part of the cluster dealing with the pilot setups and a different part handling the on-going processing of pilot activities. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Bexar Ying
Unit 479
18
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 22:32:00 -
[114] - Quote
What steps can be taken to decrease the DESIRE to go to Jita? Have you thought about that? |
Azeroth Uluntil
e X i l e The Initiative.
2
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 22:35:00 -
[115] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Suicidal Blonde wrote:You've mentioned this Brain in a box a couple of times. Have you any links? Enquiring but lazy minds want to know. I've tried to look for it in some dev posts or blogs, but can't find it. It's entirely possible that it has only been discussed at fanfest, which would make searching a lot more horrible. If you look through any of the presentations where CCP Veritas shows up from FF2013 (and possible FF2012), it should pop upGǪ but I can't remember which ones it is, unfortunately. Basically, from what I understand (and I'm sure some dev will come in and correct a bunch of details) the problem is that setting up a character in-game is fairly processing-intensive. It means collecting all the character data, looking up what all the skills do, checking for implants, looking up what they do, looking up what your ship and all your equipment does, mixing and matching levels to skills to bonuses to attributes to implants to [etc]GǪ and from this GÇ£brainGÇ¥ create Ze Pilot as a coherent object to be manipulated in the world. This has to happen every time a pilot enters a node and every time the state of that pilot changes: jumping into a system, undocking, joining a fleet. In large fleets, this massive workload creates issues because on the FC's command, a thousand such brains need to be initialised in rapid succession when they are hotdropped into a fight or when they jump through a gate. Likewise, with the [bleep]ton of people constantly jumping into and undocking in Jita, that's a silly amount of GÇ£brainsGÇ¥ that need to be figured out, applied, and set up as pilot-objects every second. What brain-in-a-box is meant to do is allow the server to side-load all that work. The system node says GÇ£oh, hey, this pilot just undocked, give me his statsGÇ¥, and a separate server does all the above calculations, collects the results in a neat and easy-to-handle GÇ£box,GÇ¥ and hands it back to the node for further processing. As a best-case scenario, that ready-made brain-in-a-box can be saved between sessions, so when the character jumps from system to system to system, and nothing happens to them, that brain was done five jumps ago and can just be handed off to the next node without any need for calculations at all. The system node, in turn, then GÇ£onlyGÇ¥ has to do the work of tracking the stats of that object as it moves around, activates modules, is shot at and generally gets up to no good. But those are constant, small-scale events that are made easy to handle by TiDi, wheras the whole GÇ£omg, I have to set up a thousand pilotsGÇ¥ task is a huge spike of one-time computation-intensive work that makes the whole system come to a standstillGǪ and TiDi just makes it stand still for longer until everything is set up in good order. It's a different kind of load that requires a different kind of solution. It's not something that's all that well served by simply having more hardware GÇö it's a load spike, and more oomph still means spikes, but with more idling in-between. That said, what it should do is allow them to get more out of hardware improvements: it's essentially a multi-threading of the tasks the node has historically had to handle, with one part of the cluster dealing with the pilot setups and a different part handling the on-going processing of pilot activities.
You, I like. Thanks for providing information.
Seems like a marvelous idea.
I doubt many of you remember when Yulai was the market hub of eve. 2000 people in Yulai? Never happened. Suck it up kids. |
Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
485
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 22:36:00 -
[116] - Quote
Bexar Ying wrote:What steps can be taken to decrease the DESIRE to go to Jita? Have you thought about that?
Taxes |
Pator Campus Slave
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
32
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 22:52:00 -
[117] - Quote
Dear CCP, have you considered removing Jita from spawning sites which it currently does? Every little bit helps in getting those hamsters free to do trading, they already don't have to cope with roid belts or PI, please let them rest from sites aswell. |
Haulie Berry
993
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 23:03:00 -
[118] - Quote
Bexar Ying wrote:What steps can be taken to decrease the DESIRE to go to Jita? Have you thought about that?
Don't really see a need to do that, either.
If idiots want to sit on the perimeter gate and complain, I don't see any powerful need to discourage them from that. |
Psychoactive Stimulant
TinklePee
13
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 23:56:00 -
[119] - Quote
Even making Jita a 0.8 system would give another like 5 or so seconds to a gank right? Even that would help the game a lot. Eve needs more ganks, not fewer. More ganks mean higher prices for everyone (good thing) and fewer idiots mining jita belts (i've seen em, you have too).
Also, maybe removing the clone facilities from the system would help too (i didn't read all the posts, this may have been suggested already). |
Sassums
Mom 'n' Pop Ammo Shoppe R.E.P.O.
102
|
Posted - 2013.06.09 00:23:00 -
[120] - Quote
Or CCP could spend some money and assign a server more capable or running a higher population cap. It is unacceptable that after 10 years of running time, we have this traffic jam of people try to get in and out of the largest trade hub in the game.
If you are worried about time dilation new hardware is needed. People have better things to do than to play jump games hoping they will be allowed into the system next. |
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