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Brazero
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Posted - 2005.11.15 12:39:00 -
[121]
 Originally by: Cardassius
Just give everyone the ability to warp in at 0km.
This totally negates using bm's for travel and doesn't change a thing for people with bookmarks.
In 0.0 we are used to camping jumpin points for a long time and we place bubbles to get them out of warp before jumping.
I agree, this is the only way to solve this problem (lag problem). We allready have this when we warp to complexes and deadspace missions, but not from the start. But they saw the stupidity in warping in on 15km and fixed it. So just use the same fix now. As for ppl afraid of not being able to gank noobs in shuttles and haulers, give them a better bubble, and a rank 15 skill to go 
Mining bm's, well let's get the fix first, and then we'll just take it from there. |
TrAdEsMaN1
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Posted - 2005.11.15 12:42:00 -
[122]
To put the changes on tq that are currenty on test server regarding book marks would be a huge mistake in my opinion and would we would see quite a lot of players leaving the game. First arguement being people saying travel times will be reduced, now this may be true unless you already have the insta bookmarks for the routes you use, such as traders in empire, and 99% of people in 0.0 systems. Now the main problem will be travelling through 0.0, now lets say that you either want to enter or leave 0.0 through systems such as hed-gp, pf-346 or N-rael. Now these systems are usually camped and lets face it 9 times out of 10 these will be the systems where the proposed system will land you 15km from the gate instead of the desired 0m. Meaning you will almost certainly get killed everytime u enter/leave 0.0 systems. Lets face it gate campers already have an easy time catching people using warp bubbles. Now for people that say as bubbles don't work then you need to learn to use them properly because i use them and have never had a problem catching people who think they can still insta to the gate. About the lag issue simply make bm's client side, or indeed add an option for 0m for warpin range, though make sure that this does actually land you 0m away, and bubbles will still work for gatecampers. |
FullThrottle
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Posted - 2005.11.15 12:46:00 -
[123]
I would also like the moon on a stick. kthxbye 
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Rodj Blake
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Posted - 2005.11.15 12:52:00 -
[124]
Originally by: TrAdEsMaN1
To put the changes on tq that are currenty on test server regarding book marks would be a huge mistake in my opinion and would we would see quite a lot of players leaving the game. First arguement being people saying travel times will be reduced, now this may be true unless you already have the insta bookmarks for the routes you use, such as traders in empire, and 99% of people in 0.0 systems. Now the main problem will be travelling through 0.0, now lets say that you either want to enter or leave 0.0 through systems such as hed-gp, pf-346 or N-rael. Now these systems are usually camped and lets face it 9 times out of 10 these will be the systems where the proposed system will land you 15km from the gate instead of the desired 0m. Meaning you will almost certainly get killed everytime u enter/leave 0.0 systems. Lets face it gate campers already have an easy time catching people using warp bubbles. Now for people that say as bubbles don't work then you need to learn to use them properly because i use them and have never had a problem catching people who think they can still insta to the gate. About the lag issue simply make bm's client side, or indeed add an option for 0m for warpin range, though make sure that this does actually land you 0m away, and bubbles will still work for gatecampers.
Without bookmarks, you might actually find it easier to avoid gatecamps.
Use your map to take a route that isn't camped, and the campers won't be able to use their own BMs to relocate to another system that you'll be going through.
Dolce et decorum est pro imperator mori |
FireFoxx80
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Posted - 2005.11.15 13:05:00 -
[125]
People talking about loosing freighters and industrials in 0.0
Quite simply, if you dont have an escort, you are already dead.
23? # Missile Tool # ex: P-TMC : USAC |
sonofollo
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Posted - 2005.11.15 13:12:00 -
[126]
well there is anohter suggest ie timer to warp out (heavier ships have quicker warp out but that throws frigates off) or basing the warp in accuracy and range upon the slowness and exposure and sig radius of the ship ie frigates have hgiher potential to come in further out on the 0m warp in to aroudn 15km - cruisers would come in closer (BS could come in at 7.5km on average as they are quicker than industrials and frieghters which on average would come in closest to the gate but sometiems sitll have small distances to run to jump
Mind u the existing system on warp in and then approach gate is based on sig radius and extension the lock on time of the defenders gate campers (same goes for station and asteroid belts) but we are just putting forward ideas and discussing balancing potential seeinga s though CCP intend to push through the insta nerf anti lag measure in RMR
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James Lyrus
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Posted - 2005.11.15 13:13:00 -
[127]
Is now time to start the call to allow bubbles in 0.1-1.0?
I'm glad to see instas go. I will happily delete them all, safe in the knowedge that I'm not giving up a sickening about of ability compared to the 'next guy'.
I was always a fan of 'fast haulers', but when you're bimbing along in your nanoed sigil, with 3000m3 of cargo, and mr insta iteron 5 with 10 times that is keeping pace, that's just wrong.
I'll be interested to see what they do with gate ranges mind. If there's truly a 512km 'dead zone' then that also does rather a nice job of reducing 'snipers'. (Doesn't stop, but does mean if they warp out, they can't just warp back and take a few more potshots a few minutes later)
Oh, and WTB Crane BPO :)
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Rutoo
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Posted - 2005.11.15 13:17:00 -
[128]
It's going to be interesting to see how CCP gets rid of all the insta bookmarks from the game. i mean 70,000 people, and even more characters with Bookmarks. and how long would that take to delete from the database,
You don't want to Delete tatical BM's Such as 150 above gate. (Although they can easy be remade) or safespot BM's again easy to remake but when you expected it to be there it's really disapeared.
So thats the question i have, are CCP going to run a script that removes all bookmarks that are within the same grid of the gate, or tell the players themselfs to remove thier instas.
It will also be interesting to see the outcome of the server after this change, and wondering if we can put together 100 vs 100 fleet battles again.
______________________________________________
Dreams are like stars, you choose them as your guides, and following them you will reach your destiny.
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TruthKeeper
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Posted - 2005.11.15 13:17:00 -
[129]
Remove All Bookmarks Please.
'Nuff said.
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KIATolon
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Posted - 2005.11.15 13:18:00 -
[130]
How about warp to gate being accurate in empire and not in 0.0
I think the nav computer shouldn't be a skill and should be a stackable low slot mod. You want to land on the gate? Fine. Then you have no WCS :)
I think we should still allow instas but they degrade in 2 hours or two weeks or something, or when they leave system, I dont know.
I agree that miners shouldn't be penalised for this
Seriously, slowboating 80km in an indy to pick up some ore is a little ridiculous?
Instas are going to become alts. People will be signing up trial accounts and using 0 skill alts as warp in points for fleets, and for mining bm's.
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Mozach
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Posted - 2005.11.15 13:29:00 -
[131]
I'd say let "warp to 0km" work precisely all the time, including autopilot.
Instead, add a module that could interfere with the warp end-point. This could be activated as a bubble without enemies nearby, creating inprecision for incoming ships. The inprecision could be countered by the usual scramble/stab logic.
This way travel would be eased for everyone, and the PvP aspect would be unharmed. All within the current ECM/ECCM system, thus keeping a tactical element to it as well.
Personally I think that makes more sense than does trying to keep pirates happy across the board. No need to perform any logic at gates where there are no enemies in the first place, just jump away and use server CPU cycles for something else.
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Joram McRory
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Posted - 2005.11.15 13:35:00 -
[132]
I made this as a seprate post <blushes> so am repeating it here:
In it's general design I like the random factor of the new 0km "Warp to" functionality on SISI. However (and it's a whopping big HOWEVER) the deviation range is too big.
People use insta BMs to reduce travelling time far more frequently than to avoid gate camps. This is a game and all that time spent travelling around reduces the amount of time you get to do fun stuff. Obviously a balance is required as long travel times adds to the feeling of vastness in the eve universe. And we need to give the Empire gankas a chance too :-)
So my suggestion is to reduce the warp in deviation to 0-7.5Km from 0-15K . This will mean we get rid of BMs, We still leave a margin of error for gankers to hit anything other than frigs/ceptors, travel times are kept as low as possible.
The skill to reduce deviation could give you 500m benefit each level, so it's still worth training but not a "must-have" skill for everyone. So at level 5 you would be able to be sure of being at least 5km from the gate, and so having only 2.5Km to travel before hitting the jump range
Joram
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Urtie
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Posted - 2005.11.15 13:38:00 -
[133]
As a new player, I can only hope that this is resolved in a way that does not fall back on phone books worth of BMs.
My very first negative reaction to the game was the time it took to approach gates and stations, and I couldn't believe it was supposed to be that way. When I read about the BM approach, my jaw dropped. It seemed hugely counter-productive to practically force players to sap limited server resources to such a degree, as a way of getting around a problem in the gameplay so easily solved right at its base.
I certainly agree with the need for travel time. It's a necessary evil. But 40 jumps takes a looong time even without the passive delay of approaching the gate.
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Kythoma
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Posted - 2005.11.15 13:39:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Rutoo
... are CCP going to run a script that removes all bookmarks that are within the same grid of the gate, or tell the players themselfs to remove thier instas.
delete * from BOOKMARK_TABLE
( don't forget to have a large UNDO tablespace  )
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Hohenheim OfLight
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Posted - 2005.11.15 15:02:00 -
[135]
I know the new warp ) or whatever it is is inacurate but is warp to 15k now in acturate to?
If not you may as well use al your old instas, this ideads just stupid when will ccp relize travel times are insane as it is, I dont play even to have to spend 40 mins in frig fitted with nano fibers and 30 mil MWD, to get any where.
As it is I have resorted to keep ing ships all over the place, Its a lot easyer to move me than my ships.
IF bms are that much of pain for ccp, the only solution is to move them cliant side, After all what the hell is any one going to do with bookmark that ccp is so affried of?
Its only BM so some one hacks the system and can not make there own?
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Dionysus Davinci
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Posted - 2005.11.15 15:08:00 -
[136]
Edited by: Dionysus Davinci on 15/11/2005 15:09:41
Edited by: Dionysus Davinci on 15/11/2005 15:08:29
Originally by: Hohenheim OfLight
I know the new warp ) or whatever it is is inacurate but is warp to 15k now in acturate to?
IT would appear from my testing that warp to 15kms has a very small chance of devation and even then its very small. Which means if you have instas that land you right on top of the gate you still have instas.
In the current test server form, instas still work and doesn't discourge their mass copying and use that likes to tie things up.
CCP is going to have to break BM's like they did for complexes around gates.
It is very close to fixing the invurnablity that people get with instas, but it isn't close enough yet.
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Katchoo
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Posted - 2005.11.15 15:34:00 -
[137]
Originally by: FullThrottle
I would also like the moon on a stick. kthxbye
Go for it...
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Antoinette Civari
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Posted - 2005.11.15 15:58:00 -
[138]
Edited by: Antoinette Civari on 15/11/2005 15:59:03
even more randomness is bad :\ eve should'nt be based on luck, rather on planning and tactics.
some ideas :
* let players warp in at 5km, no random modifier.
* add a module to shorten the distance to the gate ; low accuracy modifier, low fittings requirements.
* add a module to shorten the distance to the gate drastically ; high accuracy modifier, very high fitting requirements with a fitting bonus for certain support ships ( like gang modules for bc's )
* remove all instas that are in a 50km radius of a gate or station.
the outcome would be :
* slighty increased travel times if your ship is not fitted for travelling.
* fleets are able to move around quickly with only one support ship fitted for travelling, while all the other ships are fitted for combat.
* no more gate to gate instas in the database.
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Omatje
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Posted - 2005.11.15 16:03:00 -
[139]
Did anyone test a 10 jump trip in a freighter on Sisi yet?
I agree removing the insta BM's should be taken care of, if there is a reasonable solution at hand.
It's ok if you can relate this to a skill, but adding a module to compensate is a no-go as far as freighters are concerned.
I live on the south edge of the map, and regularly escort freighters towards empire and back.
For info: we are talking about a 120-140 jump trip back and forth (depending on the route we take).
If there is no reasonable solution that does not include freighters, the proposed Exodus from empire will come to a full stop, or even worse, the further regions will become abandoned alltogether.
Previously it was more or less managable to make these trips in hauler-gangs, but with all the new content which needs tons and tons of materials to be moved into 0.0, this is no longer a valid option.
I know this is a very difficult problem, but i see no other option then to include drastic changes in the amount of jumps that people need to make.
Travel is the most boring thing in Eve most of the time, and i can imagine that people who run freighters in Empire suffer the same problems as those in 0.0
Some while ago highways where removed in Empire and some shortcuts where made in 0.0, but with these changes, the total package should include a major improvement in decreasing the total number of jumps people need to make to actually get somewhere.
happy hobbit from the sunny south |
Ithildin
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Posted - 2005.11.15 16:12:00 -
[140]
Edited by: Ithildin on 15/11/2005 16:12:55
Originally by: Cardassius
Just give everyone the ability to warp in at 0km.
This totally negates using bm's for travel and doesn't change a thing for people with bookmarks.
In 0.0 we are used to camping jumpin points for a long time and we place bubbles to get them out of warp before jumping.
Quoted for truth.
Just make sure the auto-pilot uses the 15km warp-in regardless of what standard warp-in distance it is set to.
Result, nothing's changed (Edit: except that bookmark lag has suddenly disapeared), and people will still use actual tactics (i.e. designated modules and ships) to get people out of warp.
Random 0-15km deviation on warp-ins? For the first time in 2 years I'm considering cancelling accounts. |
Reiisha
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Posted - 2005.11.15 16:18:00 -
[141]
Instajumps gone -> regionalization.
Regionalization -> less crowded systems.
less crowded systems -> less lag :D
Also, going to 0.0 would mean staying there for the long haul. Alliances claiming the regions will have to really work for them now.
All other arguments are moot imho..... EVE needs this, fast.
Save Darwinia! |
Dloan
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Posted - 2005.11.15 16:52:00 -
[142]
Edited by: Dloan on 15/11/2005 16:55:15
Originally by: Reiisha
Instajumps gone -> regionalization.
Regionalization -> less crowded systems.
We already have regionalisation incase you hadn't noticed. That's the big 300 ship blob in Jita and all the other regional capitals. Increasing travel time will not alter this.
This is how it works. Increasing travel time means that people don't want to travel any further than necessary to get their stuff. This means everyone congregates into a few key systems because that's where people know they can satisfy all their shopping needs. Manufactureurs relocate there because thats where they know most of their buyers are going to be.
Quote:
All other arguments are moot imho.....
You didn't put forward any arguments...
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Dionysus Davinci
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Posted - 2005.11.15 17:02:00 -
[143]
Edited by: Dionysus Davinci on 15/11/2005 17:02:35
Originally by: Dloan
Edited by: Dloan on 15/11/2005 16:55:15
Originally by: Reiisha
Instajumps gone -> regionalization.
Regionalization -> less crowded systems.
We already have regionalisation incase you hadn't noticed. That's the big 300 ship blob in Jita and all the other regional capitals. Increasing travel time will not alter this.
Sure, they can stay there with the tapped out roid fields and complexs and when they shuffle agents....
Not to mention, the bigger the ship, the less the deviation means since its messured from center of the ship.
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Shidhe
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Posted - 2005.11.15 17:23:00 -
[144]
Has anyone got good statistics on what the distibution of the warp in distances is? It is easy to reduce travel times if that is needed - fiddling with the probabilities will make it more likely to come out near the gate, while making some ships come out of warp further away. Its all a matter of balance. And I do think that a `warp accuracy' module is a good idea - make it so that ships have to sacrifice a lot of combat readyness to jump closer to the gates.
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Locke DieDrake
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Posted - 2005.11.15 17:36:00 -
[145]
Originally by: Dionysus Davinci
~~~
Not to mention, the bigger the ship, the less the deviation means since its messured from center of the ship.
Uh... so is the "range to jump" so the deviation is standard across all ship sizes.
It's not like the deviation is measured from the center of the ship, and the range to jump is measured from the front tip. 
___________________________________________
The deeper you stick it in your vein, the deeper the thoughts there's no more pain.
___________________________________________ |
Montague Zooma
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Posted - 2005.11.15 17:37:00 -
[146]
The insta jump bookmark system that evolved is a byproduct of poor design and CCP knows it. CCP wants to increase the size of its playerbase. As a relatively new player, I was just getting to the point where I realized I was going to have to set up and manage a whole lot of stupid bookmarks...now I'm not going to have to do it and odds are higher that I'll be sticking around to play (and pay for) this game.
For longtime players who have adapted and done the work to use the current system...yeah, it sucks. No one likes to see effort go down the drain. But that happens all the time in mmorpgs...once you optimize for a certain playstyle, odds are high the devs will nerf it.
For new players entering the game, this is one less bit of busywork that they'll have to do. Eve is a very complicated game compared to most others...and that's a good thing. But sometimes things are unnecessarily complicated, and streamlining those things is generally good game design.
Travel has always struck me as one of the big flaws of this game. This change may fix a small part of that flaw, but it seems like they have a lot more work to do.
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Ithildin
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Posted - 2005.11.15 17:39:00 -
[147]
Originally by: Reiisha
Instajumps gone -> regionalization.
Regionalization -> less crowded systems.
less crowded systems -> less lag :D
Also, going to 0.0 would mean staying there for the long haul. Alliances claiming the regions will have to really work for them now.
All other arguments are moot imho..... EVE needs this, fast.
Hmm, I'll actually stake my money on the direct opposite. With people moving around slower it'll mean people will use their time a bit better, and they'll only find new hot systems to haul to and from. Will probably kill off a few out-skirt markets.
And the alliance will not be working harder, really. All they have to do is set up a sniper camp in a likely system and snipe the fragile haulers when they land more than 4km from the gate. Camping will never have been easier than after this change.
Random 0-15km deviation on warp-ins? For the first time in 2 years I'm considering cancelling accounts. |
Wrayeth
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Posted - 2005.11.15 18:01:00 -
[148]
Screw this. I think I'm just gonna cancel my subscription - this is starting to feel like how SOE handles Star Wars: Galaxies.
Thank you, CCP, for making moving a battleship anywhere ridiculously difficult. I know you wanted to reduce fleet battle lag, and this will definitely do it - after all, if there aren't any fleet battles, there isn't any lag created by them.
What? Rebirth? Just clone-jump to where you're going to be fighting at?
Bull.
That would require a.) the money to afford multiple battleships at multiple locations (which is impossible for those of us who aren't rich), and b.) actually already HAVING a battleship at that location (kind of difficult when it's deep in enemy territory).
I, for one, refuse to spend endless hours in travel moving battleships from one place to another - 40 jumps in a battleship already takes an hour or so with instas, but the new system will take three or four hours. Since I don't have that much free time to blow every time I want to go somewhere and fight, that's it for me. If these changes go live you'll have one less customer (and no, I'm not interested in flying frigs or cruisers - I've spent a lot of time specializing my skills for battleship combat because that's what I want to fly).
-Wrayeth
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Tony Blair'witch
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Posted - 2005.11.15 18:25:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Wrayeth
Screw this. I think I'm just gonna cancel my subscription - this is starting to feel like how SOE handles Star Wars: Galaxies.
Thank you, CCP, for making moving a battleship anywhere ridiculously difficult. I know you wanted to reduce fleet battle lag, and this will definitely do it - after all, if there aren't any fleet battles, there isn't any lag created by them.
What? Rebirth? Just clone-jump to where you're going to be fighting at?
Bull.
That would require a.) the money to afford multiple battleships at multiple locations (which is impossible for those of us who aren't rich), and b.) actually already HAVING a battleship at that location (kind of difficult when it's deep in enemy territory).
I, for one, refuse to spend endless hours in travel moving battleships from one place to another - 40 jumps in a battleship already takes an hour or so with instas, but the new system will take three or four hours. Since I don't have that much free time to blow every time I want to go somewhere and fight, that's it for me. If these changes go live you'll have one less customer (and no, I'm not interested in flying frigs or cruisers - I've spent a lot of time specializing my skills for battleship combat because that's what I want to fly).
You Sir are an idiot...
How about we all stop the whining and WAIT
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Wrayeth
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Posted - 2005.11.15 18:39:00 -
[150]
Originally by: Tony Blair'witch
You Sir are an idiot...
How about we all stop the whining and WAIT
Ah, so having wasted months of training for tech 2 siege launchers and tech 2 large projectiles which, thanks to the changes, will only fit on ships that will never be used due to extreme travel times makes me an idiot?
Get a clue, nooblet, and go whine to someone else if you don't like people speaking their mind. Here's a news flash: no problem ever gets resolved if no one is aware that it is a problem. I have every right and every reason to be upset about this and I will continue to speak out no matter how much you whine.
-Wrayeth
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