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Shirah Yuri
Kassiopeia Nova Ascension
4
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Posted - 2011.10.25 15:30:00 -
[31] - Quote
Quote:Well, other then the market broker fee and sales tax (unless it is a direct trade between players).
Yes, you're right about that. So, in essence, the rather high-volume PLEX speculations that take place in the major tradehubs even serve as an ISK sink
Mirime Nolwe wrote:But that scenario might change a bit if Player A got the in game money with Boting for example, anyway, that's not what this thread is about and some answer already stated that Plex don't create inflation in the game.
I very much agree. But that's the problem of botting. As a side node, even the typical farming can easily tend to create inflation by using human bots. At least as long as they don't salvage, since that would create at least some value in wares to counter the value in ISK.
Hence a petition to all botters and farmers: PLEASE do also salvage and loot, help keep our ISK stable ;) |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
51
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 15:36:00 -
[32] - Quote
Tippia wrote:MeestaPenni wrote:No. The PLEX does in fact devalue ISK. Where it used to take several weeks, months, or a lucky officer spawn to accumulate a cool billion in ISK...now it can be done in as little time as it takes me to buy a couple of GTCs and convert.
The time value this game used to have doesn't mean jackshit anymore. That means it devalues time, not ISK.
Time is inexorably linked to ISK. It takes time and effort to generate ISK from the faucets. ISK is functionally a commodity money, an abstraction of labor in the past.
Keeping this in mind, you're both right, and you're both wrong.
If PLEX were not in the game, and assuming RMT was not there either, then moving ISK (time/effort) around the game would not be as fast or as easy. Since it is easier to move ISK around using PLEX, the existing ISK can be rotated on and off the market much faster than would otherwise be possible. This can certainly have an impact on prices and the overall availability of liquidity in the game. Instead of the ISK sitting around in wallets, some of it is out and doing things.
From a static non-temporal view, PLEX does not change the value of ISK one bit, no new ISK is added. In fact, some is removed in the form of the NPC taxes and fees. From a non-temporal point of view, PLEX is actually deflationary. However, From a temporal evaluation, PLEX may very well be inflationary. How it manifests is anyone's guess, though I suspect this is not exactly what the OP meant, or if it did, it didn't make it clear. |
Killgor
The Collective White Noise.
4
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Posted - 2011.10.25 15:41:00 -
[33] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Tippia wrote:MeestaPenni wrote:No. The PLEX does in fact devalue ISK. Where it used to take several weeks, months, or a lucky officer spawn to accumulate a cool billion in ISK...now it can be done in as little time as it takes me to buy a couple of GTCs and convert.
The time value this game used to have doesn't mean jackshit anymore. That means it devalues time, not ISK. Time is inexorably linked to ISK. It takes time and effort to generate ISK from the faucets. ISK is functionally a commodity money, an abstraction of labor in the past. Keeping this in mind, you're both right, and you're both wrong. If PLEX were not in the game, and assuming RMT was not there either, then moving ISK (time/effort) around the game would not be as fast or as easy. Since it is easier to move ISK around using PLEX, the existing ISK can be rotated on and off the market much faster than would otherwise be possible. This can certainly have an impact on prices and the overall availability of liquidity in the game. Instead of the ISK sitting around in wallets, some of it is out and doing things. From a static non-temporal view, PLEX does not change the value of ISK one bit, no new ISK is added. In fact, some is removed in the form of the NPC taxes and fees. From a non-temporal point of view, PLEX is actually deflationary. However, From a temporal evaluation, PLEX may very well be inflationary. How it manifests is anyone's guess, though I suspect this is not exactly what the OP meant, or if it did, it didn't make it clear.
What he said. Thanks for saying what I was trying to say but poorly worded. |
Shirah Yuri
Kassiopeia Nova Ascension
4
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Posted - 2011.10.25 15:44:00 -
[34] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:If PLEX were not in the game, and assuming RMT was not there either, then moving ISK (time/effort) around the game would not be as fast or as easy. Since it is easier to move ISK around using PLEX, the existing ISK can be rotated on and off the market much faster than would otherwise be possible. This can certainly have an impact on prices and the overall availability of liquidity in the game. Instead of the ISK sitting around in wallets, some of it is out and doing things.
From a static non-temporal view, PLEX does not change the value of PLEX one bit, no new ISK is added. In fact, some is removed in the form of the NPC taxes and fees. From a non-temporal point of view, PLEX is actually deflationary. However, From a temporal evaluation, PLEX may very well be inflationary. How it manifests is anyone's guess, though I suspect this is not exactly what the OP meant, or if it did, it didn't make it clear.
Well said. Yes, PLEX can serve to increase the LIQUIDITY of the market, and hence lead to increased prices.
On another note, labelling the PLEX as "teh ebil" and shutting down the PLEX market could lead to a strong decrease of this liquidity and thus lead to deflation, which could bring all of EVE into a recession like state. Producers are far less likely to produce when prices are falling, and round the economic wheel goes the other way around.
So, yes. Liquidity increases prices, but is also an economic motor as long as it doesn't turn into a bubble (which we've had enough of in RL recently). |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
52
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Posted - 2011.10.25 15:59:00 -
[35] - Quote
Killgor wrote:What he said. Thanks for saying what I was trying to say but poorly worded.
You're welcome. It is not my intention to speak for or against the position, so much as clarify what is being discussed. |
Killgor
The Collective White Noise.
4
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Posted - 2011.10.25 16:04:00 -
[36] - Quote
I guess maybe the best question might be, "How would you feel about me buying a Titan via purchasing Plex with cash and then converting it to isk via the market"? I guess that is really what's driving my original post sorta. How would you feel about a person buying a Titan.
I can't fly one so no worries. lol
|
Stealing Honest
Stealing Honest Speculation Group LLC
4
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Posted - 2011.10.25 16:10:00 -
[37] - Quote
Killgor wrote:I guess maybe the best question might be, "How would you feel about me buying a Titan via purchasing Plex with cash and then converting it to isk via the market"? I guess that is really what's driving my original post sorta. How would you feel about a person buying a Titan.
I can't fly one so no worries. lol
Personally it would please me that you would pay for a months play time for 200 players, a bunch of isk would go down the tax sink, and if we got really lucky you would lose the titan if a fight ...all whilst blowing up hundreds of other peoples ships
SH |
egola
NSFW federation
13
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 16:25:00 -
[38] - Quote
PLEX does devalue isk, not in the conventional sense that isk is injected in the market directly from a plex transaction but rather through the introduction of more active accounts that rats, farm L4s, complexes, sanctums, incursions, etc.
in a roundabout way, most of the time the main deterant to people doing that is often actual cash for accounts, now that people WITH cash can just buy plex dump into the market, get it bought up, fuel more active accounts that actually increase the isk faucet then in that sense it DOES devalue isk.
there are people with cash but with little ingame cash and accounts. there are people without cash but with plenty of ingame cash and can potentially fuel multiple accounts plex becomes the best case scenario for both groups. isk is devalued as those with ingame cash continously feed plex to more and more accounts to do their ratting, farming etc.
TL:DR ;
plex fuels account, account fuels isk faucet, hence plex fuels more isk faucets! (hazaaaah for A-B-C logic) |
Killgor
The Collective White Noise.
4
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 16:40:00 -
[39] - Quote
I have to say, I read a lot of posts throughout the day at work in multiple categories or sections and MD always, always has the best answers, thoughts, ideas or opinions than any other group. And with the fewest flames. |
flakeys
The Great cornholio's Paper Tiger Coalition
29
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Posted - 2011.10.25 17:04:00 -
[40] - Quote
egola wrote:TL:DR ;
plex fuels account, account fuels isk faucet, hence plex fuels more isk faucets! (hazaaaah for A-B-C logic)
Well the big difference thanks to PLEX is that those with idle isk have something to spent it on and those who don't have any isk have a fast way to aquire it.Wich in essence should make the amount of idle isk a LOT less and the isksink a lot higher then when there would be no plex wich should good for the economy. |
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Cyniac
Twilight Star Rangers Black Thorne Alliance
28
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Posted - 2011.10.25 17:26:00 -
[41] - Quote
Killgor wrote: Plex was the only item that can be purchased out of game and converted in game for isk. .
Just for the record
Plex can be converted to AUR or to Game Time.
Plex can be sold for ISK, not converted into it. |
Mantra Achura
Community for Justice BricK sQuAD.
1
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Posted - 2011.10.25 17:30:00 -
[42] - Quote
I guess that's the point.
The 'poor player' is paying real money to sell the PLEX with the intention to CONSUME the money and buy wares and reflate the markets.
The trade itself is completely neutral, but the trade makes a money swap into the hands of a consumer. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
754
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 17:46:00 -
[43] - Quote
MeestaPenni wrote:Tippia wrote:Killgor wrote:The ability to spend cold hard cash and receive plex, which in turn can be sold in game for isk has really really devalued its worth. Now, you do understand that it's the amount of ISK that devalues the ISK in that case, not the PLEX? No. The PLEX does in fact devalue ISK. Where it used to take several weeks, months, or a lucky officer spawn to accumulate a cool billion in ISK...now it can be done in as little time as it takes me to buy a couple of GTCs and convert. The time value this game used to have doesn't mean jackshit anymore.
You are making a false comparison. In the days when it took so long to accumulate that much ISK, a month of game time sold for 70 million ISK, so it took 14 or 15 GTCs to get "a cool billion", not "a couple".
Now that it's quite easy to make 100M ISK/hr doing sanctums or pirate missions or level 5 missions or incursions, the ISK price of PLEX has risen considerably, but the time price is pretty much the same as it has always been.
If I were to pick a a single change which has "devalued" ISK (ie: increased the expected ISK/hr that can be earned from PvE) it would be the introduction of rigs. These increased the defensive capability of PvE ships so much that content that used to required a heavy tank and maybe even multiple ships is now easily soloable.
But given that PLEX by definition redistribute wealth away from the ISK-rich players, I'd say that if anything they've had a slight reducing effect on ISK inflation by providing a means of support other than spawning new ISK.
Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
408
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 18:01:00 -
[44] - Quote
Shirah wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:Bot mining devalues minerals making them cheaper. A major contributing factor to the current situation, IMO. Mr Epeen Cheaper minerals, as mentioned above, means more ISK value. You get more minerals for your ISK after all, don't you? So... what are we complaining about? Devaluation or deflation?
I'm trying to wrap my head around this. On the surface what you say makes sense.
Does that mean mining bots are good for EVE? I can't believe that.
Let me work through this and see what I can write. It's screwing the economy. I just need to figure out how to tie it all together in a coherent post that makes some sense.
Mr Epeen If you can read this, you haven't blocked me yet. |
Levija Saplina
Supremacy Inc. Not Found.
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 18:28:00 -
[45] - Quote
Got to love it when people use terms and are clueless as to their proper meaning. |
Hye Torque
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 19:18:00 -
[46] - Quote
Killgor wrote:The devaluation of the isk IMO is what is hurting the game currently, mainly/solely driven by the introduction of Plex. The ability to spend cold hard cash and receive plex, which in turn can be sold in game for isk has really really devalued its worth. So, instead of having to work together towards a common goal you can go out and buy 10-20 Plexes and just buy what you need. Items that used to take weeks or months to save up for and work hard for now can simply be purchased. It takes the need away from teamwork and allows people to be more solo or less involved with the game itself. And over time, this can cause a certain amount of isolationism and then boredom sets in. Acquiring wealth in Eve used to take a long time but now it can simply be purchased with out of game money and converted. I think that is what is driving the older players away from the game. The game has lost some of its "pure" allure. You used to have to work very hard to get what you need but now if you have a good bankroll you can simply just buy your way to wealth or fame. I still love the game but just a bit less and have a different view. I think if you could go back in time to say 2004-2005 and take a look at now most people would be disappointed in how the economy works.
The introduction of the Plex item long time ago made, makes and will make the ISK more valuable then if it didn't exist. Because:
1. Every Plex transaction on the market (be it contract or market sale/buy order but not direct trade) takes a small percent of ISK value outside the game. Less ISK in game -> more valuable it is.
2. If the people spending the ISK on Plex would buy any other item (supposing Plex wouldn't exist), the price of that specific item would go up. Hence the devaluation. But since the Plex does exist, people can buy IT from the market with ISK and not some other item so the prices of the other items go down.
The Aurum has a similar advantage of making ISK more valuable. People can buy Plex from the other players (sinking ISK through trade tax) to convert it to Aurum (besides game time, players have now another incentive to buy Plex). So instead of the item prices getting bigger by player purchases, Aurum conversion makes ISK more valuable. That's why CCP must invent periodically new in game items, to keep the price inflation down. You will rarely see CCP replacing items with ISK (old skill books were replaced with the new skill books not reimbursed with ISK).
CCP is closely monitoring the balance of ISK sinks and faucets and when the situation will get critical ISK wise, they will create more content and modify game mechanics according to their analysis.
The only ways to directly create ISK in game are: bounties for killing NPC, mission agent rewards, ISK received from NPC for item sales, insurance payout. These are the reasons why the OP feels like there is more ISK in the game then before. |
Killgor
The Collective White Noise.
4
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 19:24:00 -
[47] - Quote
Cyniac wrote:Killgor wrote: Plex was the only item that can be purchased out of game and converted in game for isk. . Just for the record Plex can be converted to AUR or to Game Time. Plex can be sold for ISK, not converted into it.
Converted in this sense or use means sold. That was the context in which I used it.
All in all, I am very pleased with all the responses so far. I can always rely on MD to come through with meaningful input. |
Esan Vartesa
Khanid Trade Syndicate
38
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 20:43:00 -
[48] - Quote
Killgor wrote:
All in all, I am very pleased with all the responses so far. I can always rely on MD to come through with meaningful input.
Then why did you originally post this in General Discussions?
Here's an interesting thought for further discussion:
What would happen if NPC wallets actually had balances? As in, Concord pays out bounties for ratting, but that reduces their isk account balance. A portion of market taxes flows into Concord's wallet, replenishing it. As their wallet balance changes, bounties paid out either increase or decrease dynamically to compensate. |
flakeys
The Great cornholio's Paper Tiger Coalition
29
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 20:47:00 -
[49] - Quote
Esan Vartesa wrote:[quote=Killgor]
What would happen if NPC wallets actually had balances? As in, Concord pays out bounties for ratting, but that reduces their isk account balance. A portion of market taxes flows into Concord's wallet, replenishing it. As their wallet balance changes, bounties paid out either increase or decrease dynamically to compensate.
Then i would not have gotten 1.5 B in taxation back last week from a petition i filed because i missread my sell pricetag |
Esan Vartesa
Khanid Trade Syndicate
38
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 20:50:00 -
[50] - Quote
flakeys wrote:Then i would not have gotten 1.5 B in taxation back last week from a petition i filed because i missread my sell pricetag
Good point.
Any negative consequences? |
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trianna Ekanon
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 23:01:00 -
[51] - Quote
I think the original point is that it ultimately leads to inflation because it enables mores players to play. Thus mroe people are capable of creating isk. The plex itself doesn't create any new isk to the system just that the players it enables ultimately have a net positive increase in isk output.
It would be interesting to be able to see how much isk is created from characters who are using plex vs those who pay with a traditional format. |
Woo Glin
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
154
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 23:06:00 -
[52] - Quote
Insurance is an isk sink. |
Radelix Cisko
The Forge of Willpower
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 23:27:00 -
[53] - Quote
Woo Glin wrote:Insurance is an isk sink.
Until the ship goes boom and the platinum coverage was purchased. Not sure of the numbers but I believe it is a sizable percentage above cost of the hull depending on if it was purchased at a competitive price. Now replacing the hull and equipment would be a sink since there are the transaction taxes involved.
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Spr09
Purdue Engineering and Technology Talocan United
14
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 23:54:00 -
[54] - Quote
incursions devalued isk! how did nobody see this?! getting 10mil a site in highsec and lp that makes even more isk for people really inflates the market. ive noticed a price drop in tons of faction items from highsec because of lp being transferred to empire corps and getting the faction mods nearly for free. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
53
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 02:56:00 -
[55] - Quote
Esan Vartesa wrote:Killgor wrote:
All in all, I am very pleased with all the responses so far. I can always rely on MD to come through with meaningful input.
Then why did you originally post this in General Discussions? Here's an interesting thought for further discussion: What would happen if NPC wallets actually had balances? As in, Concord pays out bounties for ratting, but that reduces their isk account balance. A portion of market taxes flows into Concord's wallet, replenishing it. As their wallet balance changes, bounties paid out either increase or decrease dynamically to compensate.
I've suggested something like this before myself, to freeze the total ISK supply. Stop having concord pay bounties in ISK and go to Concord LP.
More to it than that of course, but not gonna spam the thread with it. |
Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
435
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 07:42:00 -
[56] - Quote
flakeys wrote:Esan Vartesa wrote:[quote=Killgor]
What would happen if NPC wallets actually had balances? As in, Concord pays out bounties for ratting, but that reduces their isk account balance. A portion of market taxes flows into Concord's wallet, replenishing it. As their wallet balance changes, bounties paid out either increase or decrease dynamically to compensate. Then i would not have gotten 1.5 B in taxation back last week from a petition i filed because i missread my sell pricetag WTF, when did they start refunding that ffs. 84,000 AUR ($420) spent on NeX store for Troll and Profit. |
Akrasjel Lanate
Naquatech Conglomerate
144
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 08:32:00 -
[57] - Quote
PLEX don't add ISk to the game, the final goal of PLEX is to add 30 day playtime or AURUM. |
Shirah Yuri
Kassiopeia Nova Ascension
7
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 11:11:00 -
[58] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:I'm trying to wrap my head around this. On the surface what you say makes sense. Does that mean mining bots are good for EVE? I can't believe that. Let me work through this and see what I can write. It's screwing the economy. I just need to figure out how to tie it all together in a coherent post that makes some sense. Mr Epeen
I'm almost as shocked as you, I think, realizing just that. That mining bots do have a profound effect on the EVE economy and are currently having their share in keeping prices stable. Before any flames roll in, I'm as much as a hater of bots as most players.
But we have to face the fact that bot miners are in fact actively increasing the amount of material values in the game by creating ore supply for the market. (So are drone region ratters that salvage, as a short sidenote). If the extent of bot mining is as high as I fear it might be, then the effect of shutting down all bot operation might have DRASTIC impact on economy and tip the balance quite heavily towards an inflation, since the amount of material values would not be able to keep up with the increase of ISK in the game.
Maybe that is an incentive for CCP to not go about botters as aggressively as I'm sure they might be able to.
So, ugly as it might sound, the bot miners are a blessing especially for all players that are looking for low prices. On the other hand, bot mining decreases the ISK equivalent value of the total assets every player possesses.
Now... the question is: What's the more "real" measure for values. ISK or assets?
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Claire Voyant
9
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Posted - 2011.10.26 15:33:00 -
[59] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Shirah wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:Bot mining devalues minerals making them cheaper. A major contributing factor to the current situation, IMO. Mr Epeen Cheaper minerals, as mentioned above, means more ISK value. You get more minerals for your ISK after all, don't you? So... what are we complaining about? Devaluation or deflation? I'm trying to wrap my head around this. On the surface what you say makes sense. Does that mean mining bots are good for EVE? I can't believe that. Let me work through this and see what I can write. It's screwing the economy. I just need to figure out how to tie it all together in a coherent post that makes some sense. Mr Epeen It is actually pretty simple if you realize isk is just another item in the game. Players (and bots) who mine, rat, or mission cause both stuff and isk to be generated. The normal blowing sh*t up removes stuff from the game, but if there weren't isk sinks the amount of isk would outpace the amount of stuff and isk would be devalued relative to the stuff. So isk sinks are important to keep the amount of isk and the amount of stuff proportionate.
The problem is that this doesn't address the total amount of stuff and isk in the game. If the amount of stuff (including isk) grows faster than the number of players, then everything (including isk) is devalued relative to RL things like time and dollars.
That is why the price of normal items (like ships) can decline (deflation) while the price of PLEX keeps climbing (devaluation or mudflation.)
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SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
11
|
Posted - 2011.10.26 16:47:00 -
[60] - Quote
Claire Voyant wrote:That is why the price of normal items (like ships) can decline (deflation) while the price of PLEX keeps climbing (devaluation or mudflation.)
That's mostly true - Block has been keeping an eye on Minerals for years now, the MRD is a snapshot of a set amount of minerals and their "value". The Value is actually BSAC's value but the same formula has been used the whole time. The result shows a slow increase of mineral value over the last year, with small drops every so often.
I don't have a complete table of data, Block may be able to provide it as a source of interest. Increased value of a mineral basket would indicate a decline in ISK value. Since items in game still remain dirt cheap despite the inflation of the mineral basket, this tells me one thing.. Competition drives prices down and they can drive the price down because they are getting the minerals cheaper than then basket indicates. I hate saying it because we've all heard it a billion times before - "The stuff I mine is FREE!!!"
I have perfect reprocessing/refining skills in Jita, no tax, no waste. I've been refining more recently because items are getting cheaper simply reprocessing them for the minerals. The strange side effect of this, it acts as a sort of mineral price ceiling, or at least a soft ceiling. The item always has a floor of whatever it can be melted down and sold to bids..
It would seem manufactures don't look at these much any more, they probably think.. WOW I sold all my 42 cruisers to a guy for this price, LOOK AT ALL THE ISK I MADE!!! Despite the fact he could have melted them down and turn a 4% extra profit.
I think item price and ISK value are loosely connected at best, PLEX and ISK is a different story, but ISK and Item.. Two very different factors are involved.
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