The ability to spend cold hard cash and receive plex, which in turn can be sold in game for isk has really really devalued its worth.

Well, nothing done in game creates plex. It's not built or found. It's only here because someone paid cash for it on the Eve website and then added to someone's account. This creates more isk hence the issue. If you didn't have the ability to buy plex then less isk in game.

Now, you do understand that it's the amount of ISK that devalues the ISK in that case, not the PLEX?

No. The PLEX does in fact devalue ISK. Where it used to take several weeks, months, or a lucky officer spawn to accumulate a cool billion in ISK...now it can be done in as little time as it takes me to buy a couple of GTCs and convert.

The time value this game used to have doesn't mean jackshit anymore.

Now, you do understand that it's the amount of ISK that devalues the ISK in that case, not the PLEX?

That means it devalues time, not ISK.

Well, nothing done in game creates plex. It's not built or found. It's only here because someone paid cash for it on the Eve website and then added to someone's account. This creates more isk hence the issue. If you didn't have the ability to buy plex then less isk in game.

But it's the introduction of real money to buy directly PLEX (that its directly ISK) that takes the concept of player driven economy away. I know that we have Bots, Moons, etc etc that make a lot of passive ISK but now those players have a way of cleaning that ISK away and pass it to someone that in some terms don't deserve it (both don't deserve it anyway..)

But it's the introduction of real money to buy directly PLEX (that its directly ISK) that takes the concept of player driven economy away.

People complained about the NeX crap but we already have one option to P2W in EVE, and that it's the PLEX market.

It takes the need away from teamwork and allows people to be more solo or less involved with the game itself. And over time, this can cause a certain amount of isolationism and then boredom sets in.

Acquiring wealth in Eve used to take a long time but now it can simply be purchased with out of game money and converted.

One of the main reasons for this situation is CCP turning a blind eye to large botting alliances. Ratters in null and mining bots everywhere. All this excess ISK is then RMTed by CCP as GTC/Plex and becomes essentially worthless. You can bust your balls mining for a T1 cruiser or buy a character and a super carrier to go with it via CCP approved RMT. I can't blame people for doing this, but I can blame CCP for making it easy.

Bot Mining CREATES wares, hence increases the value of ISK again

You always buy PLEX from another player. So how is that not player driven economy?

More like decreases the value of ore/minerals .

Plex was the only item that can be purchased out of game and converted in game for isk.

Have to differentiate:

- Ratting CREATES isk, hence serves to devaluate ISK
- Bot Mining CREATES wares, hence increases the value of ISK again

Because PLEX it's not one item constructed with materials found inside the game, like any other one that we have? it's just one item introduced from outside to move ISK from hands to hands.

Bot mining devalues minerals making them cheaper. A major contributing factor to the current situation, IMO.

Mr Epeen

I understand that Plex was created to get rid of RMT transactions. I would hope that would be assumed by my post but I guess not. Plex was the only item that can be purchased out of game and converted in game for isk. Thats a big problem.
Doesn't anyone see a glaring comparison to a RL issue??? 100mil isk to the person who gets it right.

Decreasing value of ores and minerals leads to decreasing price of wares in general. Hence every ISK is worth more.

total: 1100 mil ISK

So, after the transaction, no trace of any item is even left in the game. The same amount of isk in game. The same amount of wares. No influence on values.

Well, other then the market broker fee and sales tax (unless it is a direct trade between players).

But that scenario might change a bit if Player A got the in game money with Boting for example, anyway, that's not what this thread is about and some answer already stated that Plex don't create inflation in the game.

That means it devalues time, not ISK.

Time is inexorably linked to ISK. It takes time and effort to generate ISK from the faucets. ISK is functionally a commodity money, an abstraction of labor in the past.

Keeping this in mind, you're both right, and you're both wrong.

If PLEX were not in the game, and assuming RMT was not there either, then moving ISK (time/effort) around the game would not be as fast or as easy. Since it is easier to move ISK around using PLEX, the existing ISK can be rotated on and off the market much faster than would otherwise be possible. This can certainly have an impact on prices and the overall availability of liquidity in the game. Instead of the ISK sitting around in wallets, some of it is out and doing things.

From a static non-temporal view, PLEX does not change the value of ISK one bit, no new ISK is added. In fact, some is removed in the form of the NPC taxes and fees. From a non-temporal point of view, PLEX is actually deflationary. However, From a temporal evaluation, PLEX may very well be inflationary. How it manifests is anyone's guess, though I suspect this is not exactly what the OP meant, or if it did, it didn't make it clear.

If PLEX were not in the game, and assuming RMT was not there either, then moving ISK (time/effort) around the game would not be as fast or as easy. Since it is easier to move ISK around using PLEX, the existing ISK can be rotated on and off the market much faster than would otherwise be possible. This can certainly have an impact on prices and the overall availability of liquidity in the game. Instead of the ISK sitting around in wallets, some of it is out and doing things.

From a static non-temporal view, PLEX does not change the value of PLEX one bit, no new ISK is added. In fact, some is removed in the form of the NPC taxes and fees. From a non-temporal point of view, PLEX is actually deflationary. However, From a temporal evaluation, PLEX may very well be inflationary. How it manifests is anyone's guess, though I suspect this is not exactly what the OP meant, or if it did, it didn't make it clear.

What he said. Thanks for saying what I was trying to say but poorly worded.

I guess maybe the best question might be, "How would you feel about me buying a Titan via purchasing Plex with cash and then converting it to isk via the market"? I guess that is really what's driving my original post sorta. How would you feel about a person buying a Titan.

I can't fly one so no worries. lol

TL:DR ;

plex fuels account, account fuels isk faucet, hence plex fuels more isk faucets! (hazaaaah for A-B-C logic)

Plex was the only item that can be purchased out of game and converted in game for isk. .

No. The PLEX does in fact devalue ISK. Where it used to take several weeks, months, or a lucky officer spawn to accumulate a cool billion in ISK...now it can be done in as little time as it takes me to buy a couple of GTCs and convert.

The time value this game used to have doesn't mean jackshit anymore.

Cheaper minerals, as mentioned above, means more ISK value. You get more minerals for your ISK after all, don't you? So... what are we complaining about? Devaluation or deflation?

The devaluation of the isk IMO is what is hurting the game currently, mainly/solely driven by the introduction of Plex. The ability to spend cold hard cash and receive plex, which in turn can be sold in game for isk has really really devalued its worth. So, instead of having to work together towards a common goal you can go out and buy 10-20 Plexes and just buy what you need. Items that used to take weeks or months to save up for and work hard for now can simply be purchased. It takes the need away from teamwork and allows people to be more solo or less involved with the game itself. And over time, this can cause a certain amount of isolationism and then boredom sets in. Acquiring wealth in Eve used to take a long time but now it can simply be purchased with out of game money and converted.
I think that is what is driving the older players away from the game. The game has lost some of its "pure" allure. You used to have to work very hard to get what you need but now if you have a good bankroll you can simply just buy your way to wealth or fame.
I still love the game but just a bit less and have a different view. I think if you could go back in time to say 2004-2005 and take a look at now most people would be disappointed in how the economy works.

Just for the record

Plex can be converted to AUR or to Game Time.

Plex can be sold for ISK, not converted into it.

All in all, I am very pleased with all the responses so far. I can always rely on MD to come through with meaningful input.

[quote=Killgor]

What would happen if NPC wallets actually had balances? As in, Concord pays out bounties for ratting, but that reduces their isk account balance. A portion of market taxes flows into Concord's wallet, replenishing it. As their wallet balance changes, bounties paid out either increase or decrease dynamically to compensate.

Then i would not have gotten 1.5 B in taxation back last week from a petition i filed because i missread my sell pricetag

Insurance is an isk sink.

Then why did you originally post this in General Discussions?

Here's an interesting thought for further discussion:

What would happen if NPC wallets actually had balances? As in, Concord pays out bounties for ratting, but that reduces their isk account balance. A portion of market taxes flows into Concord's wallet, replenishing it. As their wallet balance changes, bounties paid out either increase or decrease dynamically to compensate.

Then i would not have gotten 1.5 B in taxation back last week from a petition i filed because i missread my sell pricetag

I'm trying to wrap my head around this. On the surface what you say makes sense.

Does that mean mining bots are good for EVE? I can't believe that.

Let me work through this and see what I can write. It's screwing the economy. I just need to figure out how to tie it all together in a coherent post that makes some sense.

Mr Epeen

I'm trying to wrap my head around this. On the surface what you say makes sense.

Does that mean mining bots are good for EVE? I can't believe that.

Let me work through this and see what I can write. It's screwing the economy. I just need to figure out how to tie it all together in a coherent post that makes some sense.

Mr Epeen

That is why the price of normal items (like ships) can decline (deflation) while the price of PLEX keeps climbing (devaluation or mudflation.)

Until the ship goes boom and the platinum coverage was purchased. Not sure of the numbers but I believe it is a sizable percentage above cost of the hull depending on if it was purchased at a competitive price. Now replacing the hull and equipment would be a sink since there are the transaction taxes involved.

Yes, one year is too short, about 2-3 years ago I purchased MRD for I think 0.91 ISK, when they where originally valued Block made them 1.0 ISK each. Buying them at 0.91 ea means minerals where cheap. Today they are worth 1.25-1.26 ISK each.

You can see here the entire year of MRD Value for 2010... 2010 Chart

You can see it was as low as 0.80, and before the end of the year was up to 1.15 p/u.
At the moment Block has them at 1.25-1.26 according to the Exchange.

This isn't irrefutable evidence to say the least, while the formula and set quantity of the mineral basket has not changed, the pricing strategy block uses may have. Which would impact MRD Value. But I can't help but see a trend over a 22 month time frame. Mineral basket is slowly getting more expensive, yet prices of large ticket items like Battleships have slowly declined.

This is why I take Item vs ISK vs PLEX relationships with a grain of salt, what effects each of their values is made up of different variables.

And once more it shows: Everything has been said. But not by everyone yet.

What's an ISK sink?

Not sure if serious, but something that removes isk from the game. Skillbooks and BPOs are the two biggest. Station taxes and fees are much smaller I think. There was a dev blog or QEN on the subject.

Aren't those ISK faucets? I thought insurance was an ISK sink?

You would be better off with the original 4096:1024:256:64:16:4:1 ratio and maybe tweaking it a little after careful study of some of the newer BPOs.

What would happen if NPC wallets actually had balances? As in, Concord pays out bounties for ratting, but that reduces their isk account balance. A portion of market taxes flows into Concord's wallet, replenishing it. As their wallet balance changes, bounties paid out either increase or decrease dynamically to compensate.

Insurance takes money from players, and doesn't pay out the entire cost to build the ship in either base mineral cost or potential opportunity costs due to lost manufacturing slots, and is thus an isk sink. Saying that it is an isk faucet simply because you get isk ignores the deficit resulting from both the cost of the insurance itself and the gap between payout and real ship cost.

Insurance takes money from players, and doesn't pay out the entire cost to build the ship in either base mineral cost or potential opportunity costs due to lost manufacturing slots, and is thus an isk sink. Saying that it is an isk faucet simply because you get isk ignores the deficit resulting from both the cost of the insurance itself and the gap between payout and real ship cost.

Insurance pays out more ISK than it costs, therefore it is a net increase in the money supply.

The ISK you pay out to another player for ship or minerals remain in the money supply (less modest taxes).

Therefore there is net increase in the money supply.

Faucets and sinks measured are in relation to money supply not your wallet.

If you don't believe posters here that have told you otherwise, then read the QEN (Page 19)

Insurances should be managed by players and not "npc" ?

Only an idiot would do insurance in Eve.'

Destruction of assets doesn't remove ISK from the economy. It removes Value, but not ISK. Assets just move ISK around. You can't turn ISK into assets, except via NPCs.

Something that might be interesting, would be instead of being able to move currency electronically, between regions/empires/other block, you had to physically move it.

Or some kind of taxation on an electronic move that you didn't get on the physical. Course, with the physical, you can have it blown up. Makes some isk actually destroyable (or capturable. I'd suggest some kind of fence mechanism to take it. so you lose a chunk of the value.)

Removing PLEX would most likely hurt RMT more then any other action.

POCOs, as currently designed are not an ISK sink other then:

- The fee paid to the LP store (20M ISK for the BPC)
- Fees paid in broker fees and sales tax
- Fees paid to manufacture items in a station's factory slot

The vast majority of the cost of setting up a POCO is going to be the materials, purchased from other players. The 20M ISK for the BPC is about 20-25% of the estimated market value of a POCO.

(Unless the ISK moves from a player's wallet into an NPC's wallet, it is not an ISK sink. And ISK moving from a NPC wallet into the player's wallet is an ISK faucet.)

Since ISK sinks and faucets work at constant prices this is an important tool to ensure that inflation doesn't run out of control. Over time the Incursion factor will be accounted for and prices will settle at new, although higher levels.

Only an idiot would do insurance in Eve. Or the majority of players would become uninsurable.

'You've had /how/ many ships blown up in the last 12 weeks?'

POCOs, as currently designed are not an ISK sink other then:

- The fee paid to the LP store (20M ISK for the BPC)
- Fees paid in broker fees and sales tax
- Fees paid to manufacture items in a station's factory slot

The vast majority of the cost of setting up a POCO is going to be the materials, purchased from other players. The 20M ISK for the BPC is about 20-25% of the estimated market value of a POCO.

(Unless the ISK moves from a player's wallet into an NPC's wallet, it is not an ISK sink. And ISK moving from a NPC wallet into the player's wallet is an ISK faucet.)

When bots where not a part of the game then that was true, the reality of the matter is, BOTS are gonna keep working towards chasing away people from mining profession, by severely crippling mineral value (what they are now).

Back then i guess the prices where 10-15 times that of what they are now forcing people to go play solo doing missions.

Its not the people, its the BOTS that have completely decimated the world of eve online, just like those foreigners coming in and taking your jobs, Just like the bosses fireing you and hiring cheep labor (running bots themselves and stop buying your rightfully mined minerals).

Blah blah blah...

QUIT DRESSING LIKE ME!

You both are really ugly women dressing like a dude??!!??

The value of ISK is basically determined by the amount of wares available on the market and the amount of isk available for market transactions. PLEX themselves don't really add anything to the market or take anything form it per se. One player gets ISK for it, another player pays with the ISK he made somehow... a zero sum game.

However, there might be a SMALL effect since PLEX is sold by players who want ISK to use on the market. The buyers usually have plenty of ISK and would likely not use them to buy anything on the market anytime soon. So, it might be argued that PLEX in fact makes ISK available on the market that would be rotting on some over-filled account otherwise.

The devaluation of the isk IMO is what is hurting the game currently, mainly/solely driven by the introduction of Plex. The ability to spend cold hard cash and receive plex, which in turn can be sold in game for isk has really really devalued its worth. So, instead of having to work together towards a common goal you can go out and buy 10-20 Plexes and just buy what you need. Items that used to take weeks or months to save up for and work hard for now can simply be purchased. It takes the need away from teamwork and allows people to be more solo or less involved with the game itself. And over time, this can cause a certain amount of isolationism and then boredom sets in. Acquiring wealth in Eve used to take a long time but now it can simply be purchased with out of game money and converted.
I think that is what is driving the older players away from the game. The game has lost some of its "pure" allure. You used to have to work very hard to get what you need but now if you have a good bankroll you can simply just buy your way to wealth or fame.
I still love the game but just a bit less and have a different view. I think if you could go back in time to say 2004-2005 and take a look at now most people would be disappointed in how the economy works.

Why are there still more than 4 pages worth of replies on this thread?

The devaluation of the isk IMO is what is hurting the game currently, mainly/solely driven by the introduction of Plex. The ability to spend cold hard cash and receive plex, which in turn can be sold in game for isk has really really devalued its worth. So, instead of having to work together towards a common goal you can go out and buy 10-20 Plexes and just buy what you need. Items that used to take weeks or months to save up for and work hard for now can simply be purchased. It takes the need away from teamwork and allows people to be more solo or less involved with the game itself. And over time, this can cause a certain amount of isolationism and then boredom sets in. Acquiring wealth in Eve used to take a long time but now it can simply be purchased with out of game money and converted.
I think that is what is driving the older players away from the game. The game has lost some of its "pure" allure. You used to have to work very hard to get what you need but now if you have a good bankroll you can simply just buy your way to wealth or fame.
I still love the game but just a bit less and have a different view. I think if you could go back in time to say 2004-2005 and take a look at now most people would be disappointed in how the economy works.

Well, as one who paid real money for PLEX and then sold the PLEX for ISK -- I have a job and a life, and I don't have 12 frigging hours a day to grind away making ISK. EVE is a *game*, not a second job.

No. The PLEX does in fact devalue ISK. Where it used to take several weeks, months, or a lucky officer spawn to accumulate a cool billion in ISK...now it can be done in as little time as it takes me to buy a couple of GTCs and convert.

The time value this game used to have doesn't mean jackshit anymore.

FYI, plex could manage to devalue isk also, since it causes such large volumes of isk to trade hands between more characters, it therefor could cause higher rates of buying *stuff*, which could drive prices up and therefore decrease the overall isk value.

Keep in mind that value of a currency is also dependent on the confidence the users have in that currency....

Plex does devalue isk. Before plex, you had to earn isk in game. You needed a profession and that required skills. How long did it take a noob to make 1 billion back then ? Now a new player can just buy a couple of plex and have a billion on day 1. So plex devalues isk because it makes it so eazy to obtain. On average players have more/spend more isk. More faction battleships and T3s.

Plex does not deflate isk because it does not appear to have changed prices.

There was mention of no gold in eve. Perhaps plex is the closest. Gold can be bought in rl to hedge against inflation. Plex can be bought to hedge against increasing devaluation of isk.

I suspect botting is playing a role in the high isk value of plex. Given CCPs appalling response to it, I guess we will never know.

FYI, plex could manage to devalue isk also, since it causes such large volumes of isk to trade hands between more characters, it therefor could cause higher rates of buying *stuff*, which could drive prices up and therefore decrease the overall isk value.

Keep in mind that value of a currency is also dependent on the confidence the users have in that currency....

I apologize for my blunt comment, but I believe that you do not understand the concept of devaluation. PLEX merely changes ownership of ISK from one person to another. It does not generate a single additional ISK nor replaces or substitutes ISK as another tool of trade.

You claim that PLEX is a devil's spawn. If there is an ample supply of PLEX on the market, wouldn't it be a win-win scenario for everyone? 1) Those who have real money benefits by replacing his hard earned sweat and toil for PLEXs 2) More PLEXs in the circulation = cheaper PLEXs. Those who can't afford to pay the game with real money wins.

If you are worried about the devaluation of ISK, PLEX is not the source.