Space democracies donGÇÖt work (as we have seen).

As I relaxed in the aftermath of a time-dilated fight where supercaps didn't rule the day and lag didn't determine the outcome, I browsed a rack of podkills with implants, spun my recently rebalanced hybrid-gunned ship, and typed off a poorly-thought-out ragepost about how the CSM was irrelevant, because I'm literally a big babby who has no idea what he's talking about.

I then went off to enjoy a bunch of new spaceship-related content that CCP produced after they finally acknowledged that focusing on FiS instead of WiS was the right thing to do!

[quote=Eternum Praetorian]
Space democracies donGÇÖt work (as we have seen).

I love blind, unsupported assertions! Please, tell me more - in fact, construct an entire convoluted argument around your unsupported assertion, then attach it to some kind of ridiculous, impractical idea!

You're not even using key terms correctly. Opinions and demographics are significantly operationally different.

If people want to make an argument that the CSM process needs to be improved so as to increase participation, especially among certain underrepresented groups, then fine, make that argument.

If people want to suggest a more robust system of information gathering that CCP, the CSM, and players in general can access to better understand the playerbase's ideas and sentiments, then fine, let's do that.

However, replacing a group of elected advisers with some questionnaire is an absolutely terrible idea. The issues are far too complicated and diverse to be summarized by 100s of "do you like X" questions. Eve is a complex product that is used to vastly different degrees and in vastly different ways across a broad spectrum of people; it is not a tube of toothpaste with around 3 working parts that people can easily and nearly-universally summarize with a few simple points. This is a shockingly childish proposal, made all the worse by your weak argumentation.

Seems to work for all other large, multimillion dollar companies.
So who are you to say otherwise?


Oh yea... nobody at all.

Multimillion dollar companies as a group do many things that they all don't do as individual companies or with every product.

Please find us an example of a product reasonably analogous to Eve and demonstrate how this method is used.

Elise DarkStar, don't get angry again!
I'm sure you're a good debate team champion in real life.

I love blind, unsupported assertions!

Again, after all that effort you fold so quickly from the simplest and, honestly, generously-framed questions.

Who do you think you're going to convince when you can't offer even the simplest support for your most basic foundational assertions?

You beat me to it, but yeah, I'm reasonably content with CSM6's achievements. Not that you haven't made a few mis-steps, but where it counts, you've got the result we needed.

Of course, when EP means "space democracies don't work" he actually means "I am mad that 2 goons got elected".

Running an alliance in an internet spaceship game is just like a focus group, because... ?

You're doing the unsupported blind assertion thing again.

Since we are talking about unsupported assertions, where did I say that?
In past posts I have actually noted that Goons are like everyone else and the Goon hate is stupid.

Yeah but nobody believes you.

Which is exactly why CCP needs to acquire actual data from EVE's player base (on a large scale) and not take the word of what a few people "believe".

Trebor tried it and it didn't work. The current CSM has done an excellent job of voicing the players' concerns to CCP and just because you don't like Goons being on the CSM doesn't change that fact.

You seem to be a broken record.

Very little of the CSM duties could be replaced by some sort of complicated polling system (which, BTW, would get even lower participation than the CSM elections. People only had to vote once for those, not tens or hundreds of times for your proposal).

A fair amount of our work is having CCPers show us an idea for an upcoming release and get feedback on it, before they go public and destabilize markets/**** people off. A lot of our work is at the summits where we can brainstorm and discuss ideas in detail. Neither of these two would be possible with your system.

if all the CSM's posted intelligent and respectful feedback like yourself, perhaps less people would have issues with them.

In general, just about everyone on the CSM, including Mittens, will post reasonable replies to reasonable questions. For example, look at this thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=6935

If people post trolling threads, they will get trolling responses.

He's politely sayin your plan isn't going to work and given you refuse to respond to feedback because we all obviously suffer from "reading comprehension" issues no one is taking you seriously anymore.

Thank you for literally making my point for me.

You didn't take my advice did you?

I just don't feel like explaining the obvious to tools.

That's fine. It's impossible to have a conversation with you because you are completely unwilling to see the flaws in your arguments and your willful ignorance isn't going to rally people to your cause.

I think the really interesting conclusion that can be drawn from your original proposal is that more people would vote for the CSM if doing so involved seeing random pictures of almost-naked ladies. They might even try to vote more than once...

Even better if the voters themselves could upload their own pictures of almost-naked ladies which would then be displayed to other voters!

In general, just about everyone on the CSM, including Mittens, will post reasonable replies to reasonable questions. For example, look at this thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=6935

If people post trolling threads, they will get trolling responses.

I keep reading this proposal as it is reposted and reposted, and I'm still left with the questions "what, exactly, is this 'collecting demographics' going to do, and what makes him think CCP isn't able to get behavioral data from their own serverfarm or the forums?", and "Replacing the CSM? What, exactly, is that going to accomplish?"

I've yet to see you explain this in a clear and concise manner, and this is how many threads you've created on the subject?

what, exactly, is this 'collecting demographics' going to do, and what makes him think CCP isn't able to get behavioral data from their own serverfarm or the forums?", and "Replacing the CSM? What, exactly, is that going to accomplish?"

if all the CSM's posted intelligent and respectful feedback like yourself, perhaps less people would have issues with them.

It will accomplish nothing but it lets him take a swipe at Goons on the CSM while pretending to be above hating Goons. I mean it's not like he's been able to provide an actual example of how the current CSM has hurt the game in any way.

I say I don't hate the goon(dot) player base and you say that I am just pretending?

You might be insane.
I say I don't hate the goon(dot) player base and you say that I am just pretending?

You might be insane.
I say I don't hate the goon(dot) player base and you say that I am just pretending?

Until you can provide an example of how the current CSM is hurting the game being a Goon hater is the only thing that makes sense.

Who said the CSM is hurting the game? You?
You have such tiny ideas, there is just no sense of reason.

So, you're not able to give a clear and concise answer to my question, then?

I'll play with you Kiddo.
Do you know what my actual stance is?


...I bet that you don't and that is why you are asking a question that is unrelated to my stance. So lets here it...

And by "play with you", you mean "oh dear god I can't answer that question, quick, distract him!". Gotcha.

It's not like my questions should be hard to answer. "What problem does your solution solve, and why, specifically, does the CSM need to be replaced?"

I guess what I should be asking is what is the problem he's trying to get CCP to address through this, and what's wrong with the way these things are being handled right now?

The CSM are not actually the issue, there is something wrong with the way CCP actually handles things on their end. Even the CSM's have stated many times that they get ignored by CCP, that they say the same things over and over again and nothing comes of it.

It took a mass log off to get all of the little papercuts addressed, didn't it?



CCP needs to collect the information that they need in house, is my point.
They should know these things because it is their game and they are playing it....

if you are pertaining to this one...



The CSM are not actually the issue, there is something wrong with the way CCP actually handles things on their end. Even the CSM's have stated many times that they get ignored by CCP, that they say the same things over and over again and nothing comes of it.

It took a mass log off to get all of the little papercuts addressed, didn't it?



CCP needs to collect the information that they need in house, is my point.
They should know these things because it is their game and they are playing it...


EDIT:


So all of you people seeing "kill the CSM because of goons" everywhere, well you just can't see past your own noses.

So now rather than having players voice our opinions and force change... we just send CCP data and what.... twiddle our thumbs hoping for change?

You yourself have already admitted that the CSM isn't an issue, thus, this entire thread is completely pointless.

Surely your polling/voting/whatever it is scheme could co-exist with the CSM?

The CSM are not actually the issue, there is something wrong with the way CCP actually handles things on their end. Even the CSM's have stated many times that they get ignored by CCP, that they say the same things over and over again and nothing comes of it.

It took a mass log off to get all of the little papercuts addressed, didn't it?

CCP needs to collect the information that they need in house, is my point.
They should know these things because it is their game and they are playing it...

So all of you people seeing "kill the CSM because of goons" everywhere, well you just can't see past your own noses.

The CSM are not actually the issue.

Yes it could be actually.
... and yet you're the first one to mention that.



You are the first CSM to not type a twitch response, and courteously suggest that it could co-mingle (rather easily) instead of just talking down to "yet another stupid pubbie with a problem and a stupid idea". CSM's are representatives of CCP and their business, and thus they should conduct themselves in a professional and courteous manner.

Gotta love how he's now telling CSM member's how their own position works.

This thread has actually been very informative for me so thx for that.
I think I get "it" now.


Please continue to put this thread to the top of the Jita speakers section for as long as you want to.

If a player sees the CSM tag and thinks they are a CCP rep then they are wrong.

Just because someone thinks I am the pope doesn't make it so.

CSMs are player advocates, liasons to CCP on behalf of the players, they are the players voice, not CCP's voice to the players. ISDs and GMs are completely different to the CSM.

If the CSM were reps of CCP then I am sure Hilmar would have fired half of them for the agitation they've been raising (on behalf of us) the last 6 months.

If you think the CSM is a rep of CCP, then you're just wrong, sorry.

Because what you think that post means, is not what you are inferring that it means.

What you think does not matter in this case, because it is what it is.

Demographics

EVE Online needs demographic oversight at the corporate level in Iceland. Professionals need to be gathering data and applying it to the game play, not just taking a few peoples word for it. We also need some mechanism that will allow CCP to collect this data, and I don't mean these garbage forums. We need poles, info on who lives where and why they are living there. EVE needs to be analyzed in a more scientific way in order to better it and take it into the next decade.


We do not need people buying a CSM seat with Plex's or large alliances exploiting a voting system with multiple accounts. We need much better CCP oversight of their own game and we need realistic goals and expansions based upon what the Demographics reveal about EVE Online.

It's the same thing, so try thinking before you post.

Ultimately Himlar thinks that the CSM is too one sided as a "Nullsec Focus Group" and he will be keeping them until the end of the year. After that we will see what happens

We need poles

Thank you for telling us what Hilmar thinks. You can read minds now too? What he said, and what you just said, have a very fine line between them.

And he never said he will be "keeping them untill the end of the year". its not his place to "keep" any of the CSM. They have their term until the end of the year, no matter what Hilmar "thinks". And they they are going to have a meeting with CSM, and discuss things, including these concerns.

I have your designated pole right here in my pants.

Meh... Semantics.
It is what it is.

It is what it is.
Its twisting the words for your own benefit. You have your own view on the problem, and you try to push it on the others as the "right one". And you try to put words in the mouth of others, so it would seem they support you. And the worst thing... you fail at this.

It's about poles and needles.

We need better information...
Not more opinions and semantics.

In other words, you got nothing.


So you, uh, propose to get at this information by ignoring the information CCP already has at their fingertips, which is verifiable if they're just not being incompetent about it, and go for the opinions of players who can actually be arsed to spend their time filling out questionaires instead of playing the game?

I see literally no way this can go badly.

No you have it all wrong and I am tired of explaining it to you.

So take this napkin (* RP hands napkin) wipe the drool from your bottom lip, and move along.

U clearly do not have the understanding required to post commentary in my brilliant thread of "excellence"

Translation: "yipe yipe yipe please don't hit me massa I'll be good"

No, it's more that your suggestion is a bad one, it would lead to lower quality data for CCP, and you still haven't come up with a single good reason to replace the CSM.

Thx for bumping my idea!

Also Himlar thinks CSM's are not currently working as intended, because they are too focused on one part of the gameplay.

Welcome to the EVE Online forums.
That is the language of this environment, and guess what... you just did it to.

Did we manage to scare Eternum away?

Prove it.

Still on top I see \0/
Thx for the bumps everyone <3

Prove otherwise.

Prove otherwise.

And this is where you realized you've lost the argument and turned to straight up trolling.

I hear Eternum Praetorian regularly engages in sexual intercourse with over six different species of farm animal.

Prove otherwise.

Yes, the thread where you repeatedly reveal yourself to be a moron is still at the top of the forum. Good job!

Vlade Randal, is that you?!

Prove that you're not one of my alts.

Trebor tried it and it didn't work. The current CSM has done an excellent job of voicing the players' concerns to CCP and just because you don't like Goons being on the CSM doesn't change that fact.

People don't need CSM to voice their concerns. They do that very well using the unsub button. Doing it to the point where CCP chop off 20% to calm down the benefactors has done an excellent job.

Unsubbing tells CCP you're mad enough to protest in this manner, but it doesn't tell them WHY. It also doesn't necessarily give CCP a good indication as to what needs to be changed, or how it should be changed. There's been a disturbing amount of examples where CCP have shown that they're dangerously out of touch with how the game actually plays, and for that reason alone we need someone who's actually playing the game to tell CCP that they're being ******** when they are, in fact, being more ******** than usual.

I don't really care who does this, as long as there's a certain retardation filtering mechanism so EVE doesn't degrade further than it already has.

CSM is quite proficient at falsely taking the credit, though. Gotta give 'em that .

Unsubbing tells CCP you're mad enough to protest in this manner, but it doesn't tell them WHY. It also doesn't necessarily give CCP a good indication as to what needs to be changed, or how it should be changed. There's been a disturbing amount of examples where CCP have shown that they're dangerously out of touch with how the game actually plays, and for that reason alone we need someone who's actually playing the game to tell CCP that they're being ******** when they are, in fact, being more ******** than usual.

I don't really care who does this, as long as there's a certain retardation filtering mechanism so EVE doesn't degrade further than it already has.

Ok...what is really weird is I just "Liked" Mailina seven times...

You aren't fooling anybody by posting with an alt.

Cry moar.
Def not my alt.


Nice try though.

Sorry you got caught.

Hey look! There are other opinions then yours!

You forgot to quote this little gem though...

I'm a firm believer in the method of hiring professionals to get this kind of job done.
You know... people who tend to work with real numbers, facts. Stuff that produces quantifiable results in a fast, reliable and efficient manner.

And since it hasn't been asked yet on this page: What has the CSM done that's so horrible they need to be replaced?

I'm a firm believer in the method of hiring professionals to get this kind of job done.
You know... people who tend to work with real numbers, facts. Stuff that produces quantifiable results in a fast, reliable and efficient manner.

You aren't fooling anybody by posting with an alt.

Are you saying, however, that none of the upcoming changes are due to the current CSM's influence?

Are you saying, however, that none of the upcoming changes are due to the current CSM's influence?

Ok, guess we can just disband CSM right now then, we obviously don't need them.

Ok, guess we can just disband CSM right now then, we obviously don't need them.

"Nerfing Suppers", as if it was somehow their idea.

I'm nobody's alt. At least do your research before posting dumb, unnecessary **** like this. Been posting here before you and your alliance even existed in Eve.

Address the points made or shut your trap, Goon alt.

Yet you post at the exact same time as Eternum...

Look at the timestamps for posts 125, 126 and 127. You're bad at this whole sock puppet thing.

Now I am posting with my alt.

Yes you're getting good at it. Hopefully you won't get caught so easily next time.
As for differing opinions...well we still don't know what yours is since you haven't explained why the CSM needs to be replaced. Would you care to do so now?

Poor little fail troll, your tears are so tasty.

Eternum Praetorian, doing the troll thing wrong since 2010.

Go back and read, many posts have addressed your question and have done it to any thinking person's satisfaction.

Link to one of the posts. I'm assuming all those posts are done by your sock puppets since I couldn't find any under your name.

Why should I exert even a shred of effort for the sake of your apparent stupidity.
Go back and find it yourself, or bugger off and be on your way.

Thx for the bump!

Translation: I don't know. Please stop asking.


Translation: please stop bumping this thread so I don't have to be reminded of it.

Yet you post at the exact same time as Eternum...

Look at the timestamps for posts 125, 126 and 127. You're bad at this whole sock puppet thing.

Why should I exert even a shred of effort for the sake of your apparent stupidity.

Nothing to be ashamed of, right? Me being an alt and all?

Now you're just embarrassing yourself. Don't sweat it...everybody gets caught using sock puppets at some point if you participate in forum wars long enough. Learn from the mistakes you made and do better in the future.

Don't backpedal now chickenshit.

Who is backpedaling?

Stop trying so hard.

So.. so children.... No need to figth over spilled milk.
Damage is done.
bf3 anyone ?

MaiLina KaTar, did we scare Lady Harlot away?


Say it ain't so!

Lrn 2 read

If you are too stupid to find said answers yourself, have a relative unplug your life-support because there is little hope for the return of normal cognitive function.

Very little of the CSM duties could be replaced by some sort of complicated polling system (which, BTW, would get even lower participation than the CSM elections. People only had to vote once for those, not tens or hundreds of times for your proposal).

A fair amount of our work is having CCPers show us an idea for an upcoming release and get feedback on it, before they go public and destabilize markets/**** people off. A lot of our work is at the summits where we can brainstorm and discuss ideas in detail. Neither of these two would be possible with your system.

You know, talking to yourself is a first sign.

Btw, if you want to prove you are not alt of whatever, there is an easier, more efficient and trustworthy method than TS servers. Its called API key.

ofc no one will bother making a date with some pubbie shitposter to prove something. Well unless you offer to bring flowers and champagne.

And now, to show the world how stupid you really are...
I will just point out that if you have more then one account an API check won't work, where as two distinctive voices on a teamspeak will demonstrate two people beyond any shadow of a doubt.

I guess if we assume you have no real life friends or acquaintances and have managed to completely alienate your family then yeah.

You know, talking to yourself is a first sign.

Btw, if you want to prove you are not alt of whatever, there is an easier, more efficient and trustworthy method than TS servers. Its called API key.

ofc no one will bother making a date with some pubbie shitposter to prove something. Well unless you offer to bring flowers and champagne.

And now, to show the world how stupid you really are...
I will just point out that if you have more then one account an API check won't work, where as two distinctive voices on a teamspeak will demonstrate two people beyond any shadow of a doubt.



So guess what...
You now sound suspicious like a pubbie shitposter who has no clue about what he is talking about.
ZING!!

And no, im not a harlot alt. And i dont give a frack about your childish squablle here.

On the other hand, if you are completely different characters, you should have no associations with each other whatsoever. No trades, no isk flow. And unlike voice check, you cannot set it up, if there was already some interactions there. You cannot remove them.

...

But if you want to prove something to someone on the internets so much (OMG LOLZ!), then you can send me your API with roles to check transactions between characters.

...

And for tonight's episode, watch Lord Zim ignore eight full pages of answering his questions!

No one will answer a pole unless CCP paid them per question (even if it was a small amount) then tons of people will be willing to do it won't they?

Yep.
Yep, they would.
ISK for demographics... fair trade.

No. No, they don't. Every time you're pushed for specifics, you evade or insult. Every time.

So let's see about this then? How much of an isk faucet would polling have to become, do you think, for people to want to spend whatever amount of time it takes to answer each and every poll?

So how many questions do you anticipate a normal poll should have? And would these polls be an ingame thing, or something to do during login?

So how many questions do you anticipate a normal poll should have? And would these polls be an ingame thing, or something to do during login?

Looking at the whole CSM thing there are multiple entities doing this. First you have only a tiny fraction of your customers electing a council, and then that council channels information with a very strong bias. It then relays that information to a few persons within the company, you then relay it over to where it matters, again with a bias.

QF win.




& that there is what is wrong with the CSM.

It is not the people in it, or the people voting for it... what is "wrong" with it is simply by design. You can't allow a marketing gimmick named the "counsel of stellar management" to actually make game changing recommendations to developers. The Developers need to figure out what the players want through statistics and demographic gathering.

The problem I see with the polls is that if it's in-game, people like me (who'll make more isk than whatever poll can generate when logged out) will just flat out ignore it. If it's during login, people like me'll get pissed off and just select whatever they need to select just to get past it. It's not called polls online.

As to this:

So you've spent 9 pages evading answering exactly this question, and finally, when MaiLina KaTar does the job for you, you jump on it?

Ok.

That being said, he did put it well. Nice and wrapped up simple so even a kid with A.D.D would get the point. Naturally I can see how you would prefer that over you know... actually reading. Oh well.

P.S. you didn't answer any of my questions, did you?
They have a neat little "Q" in front of them so even you could not have missed it.

Q. why do YOU think it would be a big issue?

The problem I see with the polls is that if it's in-game, people like me (who'll make more isk than whatever poll can generate when logged out) will just flat out ignore it. If it's during login, people like me'll get pissed off and just select whatever they need to select just to get past it. It's not called polls online.

Q. why do you think it can only be done in a way to make it a game breaking ISK faucet?

Yes, because the best way to get a reliable, well thought out opinion on something is to stop people playing the game until they've answered. Everyone will definitely go research the issue in full before they click a random option.

Why did you say faucet in the first place?

Oh yea... you're just back peddling again.

It is unimaginably stupid that you expect to convince others that collecting demographics and statistics would not work. Or that they work for everyone else but not EVE and not for CCP. Truly unimaginable stupidity.

Farts in public.

yea... that's all the response you deserve at this point.

yea... that's all the response you deserve at this point.
Thx for making this a Threadnaught though!

Who do you forsee coming up with these polls anyway? I mean CCP could do it but there are plenty of issues the players are concerned about that CCP doesn't realise are a problem....

you got outposted son, its no shame to lose to the best

and believe me you got plenty to be ashamed of so no need to add another pebble to that mountain

Saying a thing does not make it so.
In reality, I truly do hold your opinion with the same worth as fart expelled into the wind.

And once again, no, you do not do this with a bunch of unpaid, biased nerds, elected by a tiny fraction of the customer base, who do it part time using unprofessional means. This is not "Stellar Management" it's a recipe for disaster and the past years provide more than enough evidence.

Nope, you are just talking out of your ass.

Just how likely do you think it is that CCP will be hiring new people to do this job just after they fired 20% of their employees due to their finances being suboptimal? That is if they haven't got people who are supposed to do this exact thing right now, which I think is pretty unlikely at this point.

I'm fairly certain that absolutely all the data they might want is already there for the taking, there's absolutely no need to either add extra player annoyance with a login poll on top of that, or to add an in-game polling which, again, experience tells us a small percentile of the playerbase will actually know about and use.

As for "the past years", I guess you're not in the camp that sees that CSM6 is doing things a bit differently from CSM5 and previous. vOv

Awesome argumentation there. A+.

I don't really care what your opinion is because you are arguing against common scientific methods used in all successful business models. So... yea. U fail.

So you're arguing that CCP doesn't have a possibility to get a metric fucktonne of data out of the userbase's usage etc in real-time and trends over an extended period of time, along with getting a feel for the userbase's opinions by trawling the forums?

So you're arguing that CCP doesn't have a possibility to get a metric fucktonne of data out of the userbase's usage etc in real-time and trends over an extended period of time, along with getting a feel for the userbase's opinions by trawling the forums?