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Renault T'Bonin
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 22:38:00 -
[1] - Quote
Yup, I'm posting anonymously. Make of that what you will.
I own multiple characters, and I'm a fairly rich industrialist in the game. I've headed an alliance, held sov, know how to fight, and date back to 2004.
Recently returned to the game to find a more or less all out war on industrialists. I'm going to state my case, understanding I will be flamed.
Mining, should not be risk free. Mining in empire should not be risk free.
But let's look at this scenario:
A miner gets ganked in a hulk (or covetor). He's ganked by an alt corp or large corp. War is declared within seconds of the successful gank.
*poof*- alt corp gankers are offline for the duration.
Large corp gankers, run back to 0.0 or low sec.
Even kill rights do not mitigate. There is no consequence. Security status loss is a joke for someone willing to suicide (and it's most likely an alt).
Industry types can work around this. Fly only insured covetors, keep 500m or less in my freighter, and use intensive scouting. Ok we get it... no problem.
But when the inevitable happens... we can't fight back. The targets are either NPC corps, stealthy alt corps, or full out alliance connected corporations. Even in corps of hundreds of people... we cannot retaliate. The perpetrators come to empire space specifically to hassle miners, then leave.
And WE want to retaliate! But keeping an alt corp logged off for a month is not retaliation. Declaring war against a 0.0 alliance is not retaliation- the alliance has a tactical advantage in their own space.... a 100 man empire corp is not going to successfully jump all the way into 0.0 and engage a sov holding alliance. Not happening.
While Eve isn't fair... this is one area that needs balance.
So here's what I do not propose:
1. Do not increase the tank on mining ships.
2. Do not speed up Concord.
3. Do not make industry easier.
Here's what I do propose:
1. Have real consequences for criminal acts which force the criminals to face real retaliation. People who play Eve whine all the time about how "Carebears don't want to fight". But they do want to fight! Please make it possible. Not just a little sec status loss and LOL's for the gankers. The current mechanics allow a run and hide scenario which is detrimental to the game.
Most of us into industry, in a serious sense, know how to fight, can fight, and are willing to do so. But we have no targets. We get hit... and buy another ship. We have a situation where an attack is made, and the attackers are shielded by location, or logoff.
It's a serious mechanics issue. And user accounts are being closed because of it- especially newer players. Those of us who have been around since before battleships, will probably deal with the situation. And it's to my advantage if CCP does nothing- I'll make more ISK.
But from a game mechanics standpoint, from the standpoint of new players, it's a real problem especially for growth of the game. |
Wingmate
Raven's Flight Nulli Secunda
133
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 22:41:00 -
[2] - Quote
b-b-but, you're an industrialist! you're supposed to whine and cry and use poor grammar! you're not allowed to have REASONABLE thoughts! you're a bot or something! |
Solstice Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
3805
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 22:45:00 -
[3] - Quote
Not my fault all the others are cowards, noobs or assholes. :p |
Captain Tardbar
Sons of Sam
464
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 22:48:00 -
[4] - Quote
You know covetors are prime gank targets right? If you fly a skiff or procurer with a tank, most people won't bother you unless they hate you in particular.
Though I know someone who ganked a skiff so show it could be done. "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
Renault T'Bonin
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 22:52:00 -
[5] - Quote
Captain Tardbar wrote:You know covetors are prime gank targets right? If you fly a skiff or procurer with a tank, most people won't bother you unless they hate you in particular.
Though I know someone who ganked a skiff so show it could be done.
Yup... but they can be insured at a reasonable level, give decent yield with high skills, and I can build more.
As has been said in other threads, there are ways for alert pilots to avoid being ganked- perhaps at a 50/50 success rate.
But As I said.. the gank is not the problem. |
Rengerel en Distel
1819
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 22:56:00 -
[6] - Quote
They should enforce the -10s can't enter 1.0 system. You shouldn't be able to board a ship you're not supposed to even enter. They should enforce punishment on the "throwaway" gank alt.
I doubt they will though, because the miners that quit because of being ganked aren't a large enough population to worry the money guys that drive what gets done.
With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
|
Ressiv
The Scope Gallente Federation
7
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 22:57:00 -
[7] - Quote
Renault T'Bonin wrote:stuff
Please tell me how forcing industrialists to gtfo of h-sec and work together with pew-pew buddies in order to provide their content is bad for EVE ?
|
Grauth Thorner
Vicious Trading Company
156
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 22:57:00 -
[8] - Quote
Concord could turn off the ganker's modules and scram them instead of killing them for as long as the log-off timer lasts, that way you can have an easy kill after you came back with any ship with at least 1 gun on it.. And in case they leave their ship, the ship is blown up (without insurance payout ofc) by concord and the pod is scrammed instead for you to kill it... At least it's more of a revenge that way
|
Elizabeth Aideron
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
156
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 23:02:00 -
[9] - Quote
Renault T'Bonin wrote: A miner gets ganked in a hulk (or covetor). He's ganked by an alt corp or large corp. War is declared within seconds of the successful gank.
*poof*- alt corp gankers are offline for the duration.
Yes, wardecs shouldn't be so trivial to evade. Don't blame gankers for that.
Quote: Large corp gankers, run back to 0.0 or low sec.
And? Nobody is gonna call a CTA to stop you from killing a ganker.
Quote: But when the inevitable happens... we can't fight back. The targets are either NPC corps, stealthy alt corps, or full out alliance connected corporations. Even in corps of hundreds of people... we cannot retaliate. The perpetrators come to empire space specifically to hassle miners, then leave.
Again, you have the ability to leave highsec.
Quote: And WE want to retaliate! But keeping an alt corp logged off for a month is not retaliation. Declaring war against a 0.0 alliance is not retaliation- the alliance has a tactical advantage in their own space.... a 100 man empire corp is not going to successfully jump all the way into 0.0 and engage a sov holding alliance. Not happening.
Form up a BLOPS gang, find a ganker, and tackle and murder them. You don't even need to pay wardec fees! Our enemies do it all the time, you can too. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4259
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 23:04:00 -
[10] - Quote
Nullsec is scary. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
|
Renault T'Bonin
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 23:13:00 -
[11] - Quote
Elizabeth Aideron wrote:Renault T'Bonin wrote: A miner gets ganked in a hulk (or covetor). He's ganked by an alt corp or large corp. War is declared within seconds of the successful gank.
*poof*- alt corp gankers are offline for the duration.
Yes, wardecs shouldn't be so trivial to evade. Don't blame gankers for that. Quote: Large corp gankers, run back to 0.0 or low sec.
And? Nobody is gonna call a CTA to stop you from killing a ganker. Quote: But when the inevitable happens... we can't fight back. The targets are either NPC corps, stealthy alt corps, or full out alliance connected corporations. Even in corps of hundreds of people... we cannot retaliate. The perpetrators come to empire space specifically to hassle miners, then leave.
Again, you have the ability to leave highsec. Quote: And WE want to retaliate! But keeping an alt corp logged off for a month is not retaliation. Declaring war against a 0.0 alliance is not retaliation- the alliance has a tactical advantage in their own space.... a 100 man empire corp is not going to successfully jump all the way into 0.0 and engage a sov holding alliance. Not happening.
Form up a BLOPS gang, find a ganker, and tackle and murder them. You don't even need to pay wardec fees! Our enemies do it all the time, you can too.
What an absolutely useless reply.... it's like "goon talking points". Spewed out with the impunity of the group thinking goon. Do you guys have individual opinions? Or just get the same talking points weekly?
Move to 0.0? Did you ready post? Idiot. |
Elizabeth Aideron
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
156
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 23:14:00 -
[12] - Quote
So what you're saying is that you can't think of a response against me. |
EI Digin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
1225
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 23:14:00 -
[13] - Quote
If you move to nullsec you can just kill everyone you don't want in your systems. That solves the problem, right? |
Renault T'Bonin
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 23:16:00 -
[14] - Quote
Elizabeth Aideron wrote:So what you're saying is that you can't think of a response against me.
Nope... I'm saying it's the appropriate response. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4260
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 23:17:00 -
[15] - Quote
EI Digin wrote:If you move to nullsec you can just kill everyone you don't want in your systems. That solves the problem, right? Not if you're unable to kill hem, and instead are killed by everyone you don't want There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Eraza
Fuzzyness Enterprizes
74
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 23:26:00 -
[16] - Quote
i think that's a point that's hard to escape, when someone tries to gank me while i'm travelling, i consider how i can retaliate, and.. nope 90% chance it's throwaway alt in a destroyer, the kill right is meaningless, i'll never find out who it really is, and that char will be biomass in a few days
in that regard, to the guy who disrupted our mining op recently, with the "mining permit" talk: big thumbs up to you, it appears you are an actual character and not a temporary alt :)
how sad is it that that in itself warrants a compliment? Return varied color to Gallente ships! not everything looks good in DARK GREEN! |
Elizabeth Aideron
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
156
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 23:30:00 -
[17] - Quote
Renault T'Bonin wrote:Elizabeth Aideron wrote:So what you're saying is that you can't think of a response against me. Nope... I'm saying it's the appropriate response.
Harry Forever is a player so bad that he puts WCS on bombers. And yet, he has killed many of our untanked industrials, including multiple DSTs. I'm sure you're capable of at least that. |
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
2013
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 23:47:00 -
[18] - Quote
Renault T'Bonin wrote:
As has been said in other threads, there are ways for alert pilots to avoid being ganked- perhaps at a 50/50 success rate.
Oh no... Well better than that. My mining alt hasn't been successfully ganked in well over a year. Situational awareness... Your best tank possible. Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.
Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc |
Reiisha
Evolution The Retirement Club
325
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 23:48:00 -
[19] - Quote
The amount of people not actually reading the first post is staggering.
For what it's worth, i agree that there need to be more consequences to random ganking. Or rather, there should be consequences in the first place.
Strangely enough, gankers and griefers are preaching 'eve is hard, deal with it', but when faced with possibl consequences for their currently ridiculously easy and safe playstyle they suddenly whine and cry about "carebears being catered to". I would tell them to look up the word 'hypocricy', but i think that would only result in their tiny brains being unable face the facts and instead resorting to random insults.
If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all... |
Eraza
Fuzzyness Enterprizes
74
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 23:54:00 -
[20] - Quote
Reiisha wrote:The amount of people not actually reading the first post is staggering.
For what it's worth, i agree that there need to be more consequences to random ganking. Or rather, there should be consequences in the first place.
Strangely enough, gankers and griefers are preaching 'eve is hard, deal with it', but when faced with possibl consequences for their currently ridiculously easy and safe playstyle they suddenly whine and cry about "carebears being catered to". I would tell them to look up the word 'hypocricy', but i think that would only result in their tiny brains being unable face the facts and instead resorting to random insults.
The Loud, The Proud, The Forum Warriors! Return varied color to Gallente ships! not everything looks good in DARK GREEN! |
|
Azami Nevinyrall
Carbon Circle Tactical Narcotics Team
1215
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 00:10:00 -
[21] - Quote
******* reporting in...!
They block *******? What the **** is this ****! I'm currently taking bets on the following: - CCP Games becomes EA Games' property. - EVE Online will have Microtranctions everywhere. |
Kharisa Tzestu
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 00:16:00 -
[22] - Quote
Renault T'Bonin wrote:Yup, I'm posting anonymously. Make of that what you will.
I own multiple characters, and I'm a fairly rich industrialist in the game. I've headed an alliance, held sov, know how to fight, and date back to 2004.
Recently returned to the game to find a more or less all out war on industrialists. I'm going to state my case, understanding I will be flamed.
Mining, should not be risk free. Mining in empire should not be risk free.
But let's look at this scenario:
A miner gets ganked in a hulk (or covetor). He's ganked by an alt corp or large corp. War is declared within seconds of the successful gank.
*poof*- alt corp gankers are offline for the duration.
Large corp gankers, run back to 0.0 or low sec.
Even kill rights do not mitigate. There is no consequence. Security status loss is a joke for someone willing to suicide (and it's most likely an alt).
Industry types can work around this. Fly only insured covetors, keep 500m or less in my freighter, and use intensive scouting. Ok we get it... no problem.
But when the inevitable happens... we can't fight back. The targets are either NPC corps, stealthy alt corps, or full out alliance connected corporations. Even in corps of hundreds of people... we cannot retaliate. The perpetrators come to empire space specifically to hassle miners, then leave.
And WE want to retaliate! But keeping an alt corp logged off for a month is not retaliation. Declaring war against a 0.0 alliance is not retaliation- the alliance has a tactical advantage in their own space.... a 100 man empire corp is not going to successfully jump all the way into 0.0 and engage a sov holding alliance. Not happening.
While Eve isn't fair... this is one area that needs balance.
So here's what I do not propose:
1. Do not increase the tank on mining ships.
2. Do not speed up Concord.
3. Do not make industry easier.
Here's what I do propose:
1. Have real consequences for criminal acts which force the criminals to face real retaliation. People who play Eve whine all the time about how "Carebears don't want to fight". But they do want to fight! Please make it possible. Not just a little sec status loss and LOL's for the gankers. The current mechanics allow a run and hide scenario which is detrimental to the game.
Most of us into industry, in a serious sense, know how to fight, can fight, and are willing to do so. But we have no targets. We get hit... and buy another ship. We have a situation where an attack is made, and the attackers are shielded by location, or logoff.
It's a serious mechanics issue. And user accounts are being closed because of it- especially newer players. Those of us who have been around since before battleships, will probably deal with the situation. And it's to my advantage if CCP does nothing- I'll make more ISK.
But from a game mechanics standpoint, from the standpoint of new players, it's a real problem especially for growth of the game.
I <3 you.
Will you let me bear you dozens of Warrior-Industrialist babies? |
Large Collidable Object
morons.
2212
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 00:23:00 -
[23] - Quote
Seriosuly, I don't know what all these unsubbing new characters getting ganked.
I play this game for 8 years, one of my characters has quite perfect mining skills (however I didn't mine a lot admittedly).
During this time, I've had at least 2 characters in highsec undocking 4/7 days a week for at least an hour.
That makes >3000 hours in highsec space.
Other than loosing 2 +3 implants whilst afk podding to Jita and one guy trying to kill my hulk back before the mining ship rebalance was implemented, but failed because I had a tank fitted, I have never had an issue with ganking. Not a single one of my tax evasion corps has ever been wardecced, none of my freighters ever got bumped one single time.
I seriously don't understand what you people are doing wrong. You know... morons. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
8656
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 00:28:00 -
[24] - Quote
Rengerel en Distel wrote:They should enforce the -10s can't enter 1.0 system. You shouldn't be able to board a ship you're not supposed to even enter. They should enforce punishment on the "throwaway" gank alt.
I doubt they will though, because the miners that quit because of being ganked aren't a large enough population to worry the money guys that drive what gets done.
If the intent behind faction police chasing outlaws was to restrict them from entering highsec, they would have simply restricted them from entering highsec. But it isn't and CCP have said pretty explicitly that they have no intention of adding such restrictions to the game. Twitter: @EVEAndski
TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest.-á |
Renault T'Bonin
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
9
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 02:22:00 -
[25] - Quote
Kharisa Tzestu wrote:Renault T'Bonin wrote:Yup, I'm posting anonymously. Make of that what you will.
I own multiple characters, and I'm a fairly rich industrialist in the game. I've headed an alliance, held sov, know how to fight, and date back to 2004.
Recently returned to the game to find a more or less all out war on industrialists. I'm going to state my case, understanding I will be flamed.
Mining, should not be risk free. Mining in empire should not be risk free.
But let's look at this scenario:
A miner gets ganked in a hulk (or covetor). He's ganked by an alt corp or large corp. War is declared within seconds of the successful gank.
*poof*- alt corp gankers are offline for the duration.
Large corp gankers, run back to 0.0 or low sec.
Even kill rights do not mitigate. There is no consequence. Security status loss is a joke for someone willing to suicide (and it's most likely an alt).
Industry types can work around this. Fly only insured covetors, keep 500m or less in my freighter, and use intensive scouting. Ok we get it... no problem.
But when the inevitable happens... we can't fight back. The targets are either NPC corps, stealthy alt corps, or full out alliance connected corporations. Even in corps of hundreds of people... we cannot retaliate. The perpetrators come to empire space specifically to hassle miners, then leave.
And WE want to retaliate! But keeping an alt corp logged off for a month is not retaliation. Declaring war against a 0.0 alliance is not retaliation- the alliance has a tactical advantage in their own space.... a 100 man empire corp is not going to successfully jump all the way into 0.0 and engage a sov holding alliance. Not happening.
While Eve isn't fair... this is one area that needs balance.
So here's what I do not propose:
1. Do not increase the tank on mining ships.
2. Do not speed up Concord.
3. Do not make industry easier.
Here's what I do propose:
1. Have real consequences for criminal acts which force the criminals to face real retaliation. People who play Eve whine all the time about how "Carebears don't want to fight". But they do want to fight! Please make it possible. Not just a little sec status loss and LOL's for the gankers. The current mechanics allow a run and hide scenario which is detrimental to the game.
Most of us into industry, in a serious sense, know how to fight, can fight, and are willing to do so. But we have no targets. We get hit... and buy another ship. We have a situation where an attack is made, and the attackers are shielded by location, or logoff.
It's a serious mechanics issue. And user accounts are being closed because of it- especially newer players. Those of us who have been around since before battleships, will probably deal with the situation. And it's to my advantage if CCP does nothing- I'll make more ISK.
But from a game mechanics standpoint, from the standpoint of new players, it's a real problem especially for growth of the game. I <3 you. Will you let me bear you dozens of Warrior-Industrialist babies?
That's the best offer I've had in years.
Sadly, any woman who comes near me, shortly goes crazy, leaves me in the dust, heartbroken.
Even the ones who play Eve.
I'm better as the single industrialist. But thanks for making me feel good. |
Renault T'Bonin
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
9
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 02:24:00 -
[26] - Quote
Reiisha wrote:The amount of people not actually reading the first post is staggering.
I'm kinda of amazed as well. |
Renault T'Bonin
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
9
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 02:26:00 -
[27] - Quote
Elizabeth Aideron wrote:Renault T'Bonin wrote:Elizabeth Aideron wrote:So what you're saying is that you can't think of a response against me. Nope... I'm saying it's the appropriate response. Harry Forever is a player so bad that he puts WCS on bombers. And yet, he has killed many of our untanked industrials, including multiple DSTs. I'm sure you're capable of at least that.
That's funny.
This isn't aimed at Goons. It's aimed at game mechanics.
But of course- it MUST be about you? Right. |
Elizabeth Aideron
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
160
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 02:29:00 -
[28] - Quote
Renault T'Bonin wrote:Elizabeth Aideron wrote:Renault T'Bonin wrote:Elizabeth Aideron wrote:So what you're saying is that you can't think of a response against me. Nope... I'm saying it's the appropriate response. Harry Forever is a player so bad that he puts WCS on bombers. And yet, he has killed many of our untanked industrials, including multiple DSTs. I'm sure you're capable of at least that. That's funny. This isn't aimed at Goons. It's aimed at game mechanics. But of course- it MUST be about you? Right.
The point is that you can do that anywhere throughout 0.0. What game mechanics do you think prevent you? |
Renault T'Bonin
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
9
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 02:43:00 -
[29] - Quote
Elizabeth Aideron wrote:Renault T'Bonin wrote:Elizabeth Aideron wrote:Renault T'Bonin wrote:Elizabeth Aideron wrote:So what you're saying is that you can't think of a response against me. Nope... I'm saying it's the appropriate response. Harry Forever is a player so bad that he puts WCS on bombers. And yet, he has killed many of our untanked industrials, including multiple DSTs. I'm sure you're capable of at least that. That's funny. This isn't aimed at Goons. It's aimed at game mechanics. But of course- it MUST be about you? Right. The point is that you can do that anywhere throughout 0.0. What game mechanics do you think prevent you?
There are at least two parts to this game....
1. Empire.
2. Lowsec/Nosec.
This issue is about empire space. You don't encourage people to move to 0.0 by ganking their defenseless mining operations in semi secure space (without real consequences).
Especially newer players.
Like I said previously, it makes no difference to me. I'll make more money the more mining ops are ganked. But I'd like to see the game grow. And I truly believe that a mechanic that allows for the abuse of new players should be changed.
Of course, I understand your alliance would not like that. But I don't care about your alliance. |
Elizabeth Aideron
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
160
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 02:46:00 -
[30] - Quote
what mechanics |
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