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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4260
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 02:49:00 -
[31] - Quote
your posting There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Elizabeth Aideron
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
160
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Posted - 2013.08.31 02:50:00 -
[32] - Quote
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Conrad Makbure
Division One Security
51
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Posted - 2013.08.31 03:29:00 -
[33] - Quote
Remember when Blizz announced that they were going to make Real ID thing mandatory? Well, they backed out at the last minute and made it an option, but here I think it'd be something worth considering.... |
Wingmate
Raven's Flight Nulli Secunda
133
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Posted - 2013.08.31 03:58:00 -
[34] - Quote
Elizabeth Aideron wrote:So what you're saying is that you can't think of a response against me.
why tell him to come to null to kill you? you know that goons never undock but just sperg in local and on the forums. it's a pointless statement. |
Diablo Ex
Lilith's Shadow
198
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Posted - 2013.08.31 05:20:00 -
[35] - Quote
The OP has expressed the problem eloquently. There are no real risks to the Gankers.
But this is not solely about the Mechanics, there is also the Future of EvE Online. Sure, there are a lot of folks who don't care one single bit about the Reputation of EvE. But, as people hear out on the real world that the Sandlot is dominated by the local Street Thug association, and you can't play in the sand without having your face kicked in... well, you stop playing the game. Worse yet, you don't go there at all.
Yea, there will be a few who will relish the idea that they conquered the Sandbox, but it will get lonely out there when the lights are turned off.
Nullsec rightly belongs to certain players, it caters to their play styles. But if there is not allowances for the Highsec casual player, then they move on to other things.
Yes, Ganking without consequence is a bad game mechanic...
Diablo Ex Machina - "I'm not here to fix your problem" |
Sol Kal'orr
The Scope Gallente Federation
95
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Posted - 2013.08.31 05:25:00 -
[36] - Quote
Diablo Ex wrote:Yes, Ganking without consequence is a bad game mechanic...
Last I checked we get Concorded and I am a free target for everyone everywhere.
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Tydeth Gilitae
Magewright Artificers
20
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Posted - 2013.08.31 05:28:00 -
[37] - Quote
Conrad, I'll presume you're joking here as in an environment as paranoid as EVE, Real ID is about the worst idea that can be implemented.
On to the main subject...
The issue I see from the OP is thus: - High-sec corp has people with some PVP skills trained and can thus fly combat ships. - They get ganked while running mining ops or solo mining or whatever. - High-sec = CONCORD, so if they see the ganker ouside of a GCC, they cannot return the straight-up-attack favor without getting criminal themselves. - Attackers may be in an NPC corp, thus immune to WarDec that would make shooting them legal. - Or they're in one-man or other dedicated alt corp that they don't have to log in thus making WarDec (or Kill Rights) useless. - Therefore, the High-sec guys have no recourse in Empire space to exact revenge on the gankers without becoming gankers themselves.
Now that we have identified the specified, we may address it and specific parts thereof.
Quote:Even kill rights do not mitigate. There is no consequence.
Kill rights can be made available to other people. If you set the price to 0, then whomever you share the KR with can just activate and attack for free, legally in High-Sec without Concord saving the ganker. I do not recall at the moment how to share a KR, but it should be on the wiki or somewhere. If used right, a KR can prevent or at least further lessen the damage a ganker can do when he makes a subsequent attack, by allowing a defender to shoot first.
That brings me to the next point.
Quote:But when the inevitable happens... we can't fight back.
Some of your corp guys with combat skills could fly combat ships in the area while others mine. The miners should have at least some effective defensive modules to give the fighters time to act. These defenders can attack a ganker once he opens fire (or sooner with a KR active). Gank ships are built to be cheap but high-damage; they have no tank. You kill them before they can break a tanked mining ship, the gank damage is mitigated. If it takes 6 catalysts to pop a barge, they bring 6, and you kill 1 or 2, that barge is potentially still alive.
As they expect to be killed by CONCORD, being killed by your defenders might not be a major deterrent, but showing that the corp isn't a bunch of easy targets may result in them moving on to softer prey, or bringing friends to engage your fleet, WarDec or no. Speaking of WarDec...
Yeah, WarDecs aren't really useful. All they do really is allow two corps/alliances to fight in High-sec without Concord annoying everybody. They don't force or guarantee combat; just make it openly available so you have the option of shooting each other.
NPC Corp gankers, all you can do against them is fight back when they gank, or use a Kill Right (or a member who doesn't mind 15min GCC and a minor SecStatus hit) to shoot first. Or just straight up revenge gank when such an opportunity presents itself. No, I don't know how effective revenge ganking could possibly be; it'd probably depend on what he was flying at the time.
Alt Corp who stays logged off = threat neutralized. If they don't log in out of fear of WarDec, they aren't attacking your miners. That is boring, but for the purposes of deterring gank it is also a victory.
Big corp from Low/Null who base out of those areas just means your guys would have to venture into Concordless space to hunt them down. Low-sec can have gate camps, but using the map and scouts can allow you to avoid them fairly well. Harder to deal with may be the Warp Disruptor Fields in Null-sec. However, there are High-sec to Null-sec Wormholes floating about; I've used a couple before, as well as more lengthy routes through Unknown Space that can include High and Low/Null connections. While random in nature, those can potentially help avoid some bubbles/camps by taking a back door.
Yes, a 100 man fleet blob heading to Null will not be looked upon well by a Sov alliance, especially if they're Red on the overview because you WarDecced the alliance in retaliation for ganking. However, use of the WH back door can also help avoid the Null intel channels that would allow them to form up a suitable counter to kill the fleet ahead of time. You'd just need to be careful about how big the ships you shove into the WHs are, to avoid cutting off half your armada. Wormhole systems can be just as deadly as Null, if not deadlier because of the lack of Local to warn of hostiles or Cynos to bring in backup.
Really, a 100 man blob from High to 0.0 is just infeasible. You'd be better off using a smaller group with Black Ops or such, like Aideron said.
Even if your guys have tried and just can't get to the destination, the WarDec against the Low/Null-based gankers is still valid. You can still shoot them when they go to High-sec for any reason. If you WarDec the Goons while they're doing a Hulkageddon/Interdiction/BurnJita/whatever, then you can fight against the whatever thanks to the WarDec. Granted; they'll probably have a few extra guys to blast WTs out of the sky with, but that's the point of a huge alliance.
If you WarDec a Low/Null corp and they don't bother going into High-sec during the war, Threat Neutralized. If you want to launch offensive campaigns against a Low/Null group, just save the 50m isk, set their standings to Red, and charge into battle without a war. As long as you don't attack the pods, the sec status hits for attacking ships in Low is negligible. Null-sec doesn't even touch your Sec Status one bit.
Quote:90% chance it's throwaway alt ... that char will be biomass in a few days
Eraza, CCP declared that move an exploit; if you suspect a ganker is doing the throwaway thing to avoid negative Sec status, you can Petition them and GMs will look into it. |
Sol Kal'orr
The Scope Gallente Federation
95
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 05:37:00 -
[38] - Quote
I read your post, OP. You seem to be suggesting changing some mechanics but don't identify exactly which ones you mean nor what feasible changes you would like to see. I get the impression you would like wardecs to be harder to evade. I imagine most pvpers would agree with you on that, but it wasn't the pvpers that lobbied for wardecs to be essentially meaningless, your side of the fence did that.
You choose to dismiss what the Goon poster said about Harry Forever as a Goon trying to make everything about them but she made a good point. If someone as new (and as bafflingly angry) as Mr. Forever can inflict a steady stream of losses on CONDI imagine what you, a near decade old rich industrialist with teeth (who posts with an alt) could do if your really tried. Have you considered hiring some mercs?
As for your complaints about recycled alts CCP already take a dim view on that so if you see it happening please petition it. |
baltec1
Bat Country
7745
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 06:00:00 -
[39] - Quote
The irony of this thread is that suicide ganking has the most punishments and conciquences in EVE.
Its not the gankers fault that the victim choses not to use any of the options available to them. |
Riot Girl
Krypteia Operations
1623
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 06:04:00 -
[40] - Quote
Renault T'Bonin wrote:Declaring war against a 0.0 alliance is not retaliation- the alliance has a tactical advantage in their own space.... Actually, it is. Do you think null sec players don't need to use Empire trade hubs? High sec war decs can be a huge pain in the ass for null sec alliances. Oh god. |
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4262
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 06:30:00 -
[41] - Quote
We never use NPC alts to move stuff in highsec There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
819
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 06:35:00 -
[42] - Quote
I post on my main, gank on my main, & you cry on your alt, and claim something is wrong.
R O F L
Welcome to New Eden. HTFU Eve is Real |
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
819
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 06:42:00 -
[43] - Quote
Oh and my industry alt laughs in your general direction also.
He doesn't mine though. Mining makes Roddy Piper angry. Eve is Real |
Jonathan Peak
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
9
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 06:54:00 -
[44] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:I post on my main, gank on my main, & you cry on your alt, and claim something is wrong. R O F L Welcome to New Eden. HTFU
I think you missed his point. |
Job Valador
Super Moose Defence Force
225
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 07:10:00 -
[45] - Quote
It is frustrating my fellow industrialist but fighting back is possible. I have done it, it just takes a bit more effort to fight alt gankers than it does for your run of the mill pvp corp. Soldier on and keep learning. They always slip up some were or they dont even bother to cover up an online trail that leads to the main acc. just takes perseverance and a bit of digging. "The stone exhibited a profound lack of movement." |
Solstice Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
3811
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 07:45:00 -
[46] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:I post on my main, gank on my main, & you cry on your alt, and claim something is wrong. R O F L Welcome to New Eden. HTFU
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Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3535
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 07:58:00 -
[47] - Quote
Game mechanics are preventing me from retaliating even though I would like to, but I can't tell you what those mechanics are. ~Highsec person The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3535
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 08:00:00 -
[48] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:The irony of this thread is that suicide ganking has the most punishments and conciquences in EVE.
Its not the gankers fault that the victim choses not to use any of the options available to them.
No nerf to suicide ganking is good enough for the highsec player until highsec is 100% safe & PvP optional. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Teinyhr
A Club for Reputable Gentlemen
184
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 08:04:00 -
[49] - Quote
Rengerel en Distel wrote:They should enforce the -10s can't enter 1.0 system. You shouldn't be able to board a ship you're not supposed to even enter. They should enforce punishment on the "throwaway" gank alt.
This sounds like a reasonable idea, and people who complain that eve is too easy should have no problem with this. If you act like a douchebag, you should in turn get treated like a douchebag. Especially now with the new sec for tag system I see no reason not to start enforcing poor security status consequences, -10 would ensure you have no business inside 1.0, -9 to 0.9 and so on. Meaning, they would be barred from entering secure space altogether.
But I'm also sure inconviencing these brave, brave gankers would start a flood of yarrbear tears of biblical proportions. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3535
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 08:08:00 -
[50] - Quote
Teinyhr wrote: -10 would ensure you have no business inside 1.0, -9 to 0.9 and so on
Basing this idea on what you've said, why bar a -10 player from 1.0 space at -10 when he's already barred at -9.0? Do you even know how security status works?
Also with the 5 minute sec ticks your suicide ganker would be back in 2 days anyway & you'd be complaining about that next. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
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Teinyhr
A Club for Reputable Gentlemen
185
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Posted - 2013.08.31 08:15:00 -
[51] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Basing this idea on what you've said, why bar a -10 player from 1.0 space at -10 when he's already barred at -9.0? Do you even know how security status works?
If low security status prevents people from jumping to a system, then no, I have not been informed of that. I know you get empire navies pursuing you, but that's kind of like someone slapping you with a fish. |
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
820
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 08:16:00 -
[52] - Quote
Jonathan Peak wrote:Cipher Jones wrote:I post on my main, gank on my main, & you cry on your alt, and claim something is wrong. R O F L Welcome to New Eden. HTFU I think you missed his point.
How so?
Im saying miners have plenty of chance to fight back. Or industrialists. I consider them 2 groups, and the "industrialists" who mine for themselves to be quite fail.
The last one cried in eve mail, PM'ed me, had his boy pm me, hired mercs (to counter my war dec), had the mercs PM me, threatened to make this character unplayable if I didn't pay extortion, and then ran for 7 days when I fought back. I heard the point he was trying to make and found it to be laughable. Eve is Real |
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
1701
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 08:23:00 -
[53] - Quote
"Anonymity" is the key word in EVE.
No matter what you do (minus stupid), the Anonymity Cloak will keep you safe and warm, free from the consequences of your actions. The whole game is built on the definition of what is sheltered by the Anonymity Cloak and what isn't.
I cringe at the thought of the tidal wave of tears that could cause if CCP provided a mean to track agressors' accounts. You got a kill right, then you can tell who is his character with the most SP or most ISK or the oldest one, or the three.
And then go pay that char a visit.
An ARMED visit, so he thinks it twice before messing with YOUR main again.
I would pay a PLEX for the privilege... The Greater Fool Bar is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! |
Solstice Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
3811
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 08:26:00 -
[54] - Quote
All you wannabes who believe you should have a say in things...
Yes, usage of alts gives teenagers and adults with serious self esteem issues way way too much power and way too less consequences...
...but not only do most of you have no idea how much work it is to properly play as -10 in highsec, without alts!, you are asking to ruin it also for those who wear their badge with pride!
If you want the problem to be resolved, stop making it so easy for peopld to make fun of you. Stop making yourself targets. Start acting, instead of demanding!
Gankers have no natural enemy! That's not because they use alts, that's because most people in highsec are idiots who have no sense for community! |
Solstice Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
3811
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 08:32:00 -
[55] - Quote
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:"Anonymity" is the key word in EVE. No matter what you do (minus stupid), the Anonymity Cloak will keep you safe and warm, free from the consequences of your actions. The whole game is built on the definition of what is sheltered by the Anonymity Cloak and what isn't. I cringe at the thought of the tidal wave of tears that could cause if CCP provided a mean to track agressors' accounts. You got a kill right, then you can tell who is his character with the most SP or most ISK or the oldest one, or the three. And then go pay that char a visit. An ARMED visit, so he thinks it twice before messing with YOUR main again. I would pay a PLEX for the privilege... Yeah if we weren't anonymous, sociopathic carebears might think twice about insulting people or throwing death threats around. |
Icarus Able
Traverse Holdings
74
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 08:33:00 -
[56] - Quote
Solution to your problem. An unlawful kill in highsec gives you the immediate option to delcare war. While this war is active noone may leave either corp, and the aggressor cannot call in backup. Its not perfect but its the best i can come up with. |
Jonathan Peak
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
9
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 08:34:00 -
[57] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:How so?
After rereading your post, I think I may have mistaken your meaning. So, disregard.
--
I don't agree with the entirety of the OP. Specifically, if a ganker is part of a large nullsec alliance, and runs to that alliance for protection after ganking, then I don't see the problem. That's just one of the benefits of being in a large alliance.
The use of ganking alts is a problem. Of course, the players themselves shouldn't be blamed--if such an easy out is offered by the game, then there's no good reason not to make use of that. But the OP is saying the game shouldn't allow such an easy escape from consequences, and I agree. However, I don't see a good way to change things on that front without getting rid of PLEX and strictly policing for RMT. It seems unlikely that CCP would take such a drastic measure over this issue.
But then, I'm not a game designer. Maybe CCP will think of something. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3538
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 08:36:00 -
[58] - Quote
Teinyhr wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Basing this idea on what you've said, why bar a -10 player from 1.0 space at -10 when he's already barred at -9.0? Do you even know how security status works? If low security status prevents people from jumping to a system, then no, I have not been informed of that. I know you get empire navies pursuing you, but that's kind of like someone slapping you with a fish.
You should try getting 20 people below -5.0 from a station to your target that is 4 jumps away. Not everyone makes it to the target & those that do get jammed before concord arrives due to players in Griffins & faction navies. Suicide ganking with low security status takes precise coordination & timing to be successful. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Riot Girl
Krypteia Operations
1623
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 08:37:00 -
[59] - Quote
Icarus Able wrote:Solution to your problem. An unlawful kill in highsec gives you the immediate option to delcare war. While this war is active noone may leave either corp, and the aggressor cannot call in backup. Its not perfect but its the best i can come up with. How does that work?
Oh god. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3538
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 08:38:00 -
[60] - Quote
Icarus Able wrote:the aggressor cannot call in backup. Its not perfect but its the best i can come up with.
How would game mechanics be able to enforce this? Nerf friend making? If this is the best idea you can come up with then I really don't want to see your other ideas. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
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