This pretty much sums up why this is a horrible idea.

Also, this concept basically puts all Caldari missile boats at a disadvantage because they're only bonused for kinetic damage.

Alright.

If the missile systems mentioned in the OP would receive an overall DPS buff (1.5 times of what other missile systems of comparable size do) I could maybe imagine RLML and RHML as worthwhile.

Also, seeing as a T2 HML already fits around 40 missiles, it's rather preposterous to assume a larger launcher would only be able to load 28 missiles. Take the ammo capacity of the standard LML and HML, then buff rate of fire while nerfing reload speed.

Make it a truly devastating weapon - hell, give RHML fit Golems the ability to spike 2000-3000 DPS without factoring in reloads, with the caveat of having to wait for almost a minute once they've run dry.

Basically, survive the first barrage and stand a good chance of either burning away or obliterating your target - or continuously tanking the damage and repping up once they've shot their wad.

Also, this concept basically puts all Caldari missile boats at a disadvantage because they're only bonused for kinetic damage.

And also i think the entire point here is that Rapid launchers aren't supposed to be a primary weapon system, their supposed to be a niche thing.

Really? How incredibly fortunate missile pilots are, being the only one's in game with 4 (four!) niche weapon systems:
- rapid light missiles
- rapid heavy missiles
- heavy missiles
- heavy assault missiles

Having that much luck soon they can expect two more niche systems coming:
- swarm rockets
- rapid cruise missiles

Train Caldari, the most specialized race in EvE.

HAMs however are not niche at all, i can't really see how you would think that. They have really good range for short range weapons. Applies dps pretty damn decently, especially on webbed targets and in many cases has selectable damage types..

are they perfect in all situations? No they will struggle against many things.. but so do all the other medium weapon systems.

As a primarily PvE pilot, I've greatly enjoyed flying my Caracal with RLMLs in missions, anomalies and escalations in which I have to deal with dozens of frigate-class ships with a smattering of cruiser-size targets. Anything smaller than a cruiser has trouble fitting the necessary tank, let alone fit a salvager/tractor/salvage drones; a larger ship often is not permitted, and standard mid-size weapon systems frequently cannot apply enough damage to small targets to be useful (at least, not without sacrificing a significant portion of tank, which defeats the purpose of bringing the larger hull to begin with). The cruiser using a juiced-up small weapon system is the perfect solution. I was looking forward to a similar solution for running some of the more advanced anomalies and L4 missions which focus on larger numbers of smaller elite targets; running them in a BC often is still problematic, while applying damage using cruise missiles or torpedoes is suboptimal at best. Drones can help to an extent, but still can't fully bridge the gap, especially not with the improved NPC AI. Being able to fit RHMLs to my Raven for such missions was a very appealing idea.
However, for my purposes (and yes, I realize that my playstyle does not constitute that of the larger subscription base) I feel the proposed mechanics for RMLs render them useless to me.
The biggest problem I see actually stems from missile flight time. For the sake of simplicity, let's assume a 5s cycle time on the launcher and 5k m/s velocity for the missiles. Unless you're being very careful, any target over 25km away will have at least one salvo en route when it explodes; anything over 50km, at least two salvos. With the current iteration, this isn't that big a deal, but for the new mechanics this would mean that 5-20% of your ammo capacity could easily be wasted *per target*...and then you hope you can survive the reload.
When I first found the RLMLs, I was ecstatic; I immediately tried to find similar systems for turret ships, but instead found that the "dual/quad $smallergun" turrets do not follow anything close to the same formula for being a viable means of combating numerous smaller ships from a larger hull. Is it intended that drones be the most, or perhaps even only, reasonable solution for this situation?

Range is not a problem, damage application is. They are usable of course, just not nearly as good as medium turrets, which makes them kinda semi-niche. Try to hit a frigate or speedy cruiser with HAM's. What you can easily kill are noobs, with skilled pilot you will struggle even if you are skilled yourself. Turrets are different cause with good piloting you can make a difference. Web makes everything better, sure thing but... it's not always easy to fit web on a shield tanked ship.

And range guns usually always nail their target no matter the size of target or size of guns. It's not umcommon to see 1400mm, or 425mm or etc take out frigates and destroyers with little issue one on one even. When was the last time you saw a cruise boat or torp boat take a frigate out one on one?

AC don't have terrible damage and never have. Lasers, if you use the small version can track and take out frigates and destroyers with easy usually, blasters don't have much range, but if you get in ther range or you use a Caldari blast boat which gives them pretty alright range, you will rock whatever you are attacking, the amount of damage blasters do, little will stand up against them. And range guns usually always nail their target no matter the size of target or size of guns. It's not umcommon to see 1400mm, or 425mm or etc take out frigates and destroyers with little issue one on one even. When was the last time you saw a cruise boat or torp boat take a frigate out one on one? Rapids aren't OP at all, and if the issue is that they can hit far and do what close guns can, find I'm game change raipds into HAMs and rockets, so they don't get such range.

You're talking about this like the other medium weapons have great application..

Blasters have no range what so ever. Pulses have terrible tracking. Ac's are relatively low dps and not great at range.

And i cannot think of a single HAM ship that doesn't have the mids to fit a tank and a web... Yes HAM's struggle to apply damage to some targets.. but so do the other weapon systems.. even more so in some cases..

A webbed ab frigate will still take between 15-25% damage from hams. Even at full speed.

A pulse laser ship won't be able to do 1% damage to a frigate orbiting it at 40% speed. But instead its better at killing said frigate at its optimal. Its a trade off.

Pulses have good enough tracking that you can kill a frigate if you know how. Same with other two systems, you can use them to your advantage, which you cannot do in the same way with heavy assault missiles.

And how much if it's not webbed - 5%, 6..?

Yes, it is - the one where you can do up to 80% damage or more to a webbed Merlin if everything is done properly. Just try to compare HAM Cerb and pulse Zealot, both with webs and faction ammo and hopefully you'll see that Zealot has (EDIT: could have) at least 50% better damage application.

HAM have enough application that you can kill a frigate if you know how. You cannot do in the same way with turrets. :D
I too master the "always true" statement ; butI know it's a poor way to argue.

In France, we have an expression which translate into "with 'if's we could put Paris into a bottle."
How much damage will your turrets do to a closely orbiting frigate ? Answer is 0 and 5 is still superior to 0.

If everything is done properly, HAM Cerb will do a lot of damage to a fully tackled and painted Merlin. This is another "if everything is perfect" scenario for turrets against a "if everything goes wrong" for missiles ; in other words, an always true statement.

As a primarily PvE pilot, I've greatly enjoyed flying my Caracal with RLMLs in missions, anomalies and escalations in which I have to deal with dozens of frigate-class ships with a smattering of cruiser-size targets. Anything smaller than a cruiser has trouble fitting the necessary tank, let alone fit a salvager/tractor/salvage drones; a larger ship often is not permitted, and standard mid-size weapon systems frequently cannot apply enough damage to small targets to be useful (at least, not without sacrificing a significant portion of tank, which defeats the purpose of bringing the larger hull to begin with). The cruiser using a juiced-up small weapon system is the perfect solution.

"If you know how" means at proper distance, with proper positioning etc. There is no proper distance with missiles in the same way, nor can you achieve much with positioning.


Well, if frigate isn't webbed your damage will be about 10% and that only if you have perfect precision skills. Answer is zero, yes but "if you know how" you have the option to shoot close to the end of your optimal / end of web range, where your damage will be highest. You can't do such a thing with missiles.


Of course, if everything goes wrong (no web, short orbit, bad tracking... you name it), you won't do any damage but that's the thing - with your experience and good piloting you can make the difference. Something you cannot do nearly as good using missiles. Too much depends on how small your target is and how fast it is moving so if you have under-performing weapon like HAM's, you can press F1, orbit and sit on your hands for the rest of the fight... doesn't matter.

But hams and hml aren't meant for defrigging...

I know. Please, do me a favor if not too much to ask. Read more than you just did and then comment.

Rapid Light Missile Launcher I
Fitting: 72 PG, 35 CPU
Rate of fire: 7.8s
Charge capacity: 16
Reload time: 40s

Rapid Light Missile Launcher II
Fitting: 76 PG, 39 CPU
Rate of fire: 6.2s
Charge capacity: 18
Reload time: 40s

[quote=Garviel Tarrant]


Pulses have good enough tracking that you can kill a frigate if you know how. Same with other two systems, you can use them to your advantage, which you cannot do in the same way with heavy assault missiles.

You mention hams underperforming on small quick moving targets in your last paragraph. Seems to indicate frigate to me. Of course hams are **** if the target isn't scrammed or web. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point, or didnt feel like reading 70 pages to find it. but the general consensus that I'm reading is ppl don't want any sacrifice when fitting hams or hml like it is with rlml. Just fill lows with bcus and shoot. Then moan when hams/hml suck at applying dps because they do the same thing on a ham or hml fit. No rigors/flares tps/web or hell, even crash booster. Yea.. that's what happens when you go for max paper dps.

Worst case scenario? You should factor in the more common scenarios into the fits.

So I must've missed the part where the power grid requirements for RLMLs got bumped...