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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 11 post(s) |
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CCP Tallest
C C P C C P Alliance
162
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Posted - 2011.11.04 11:08:00 -
[1] - Quote
Greetings
Please post your feedback about hybrid turret balancing in this thread.
Thanks. Your Tallest. |
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To mare
Advanced Technology
0
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Posted - 2011.11.04 13:07:00 -
[2] - Quote
remove the tracking pnalty from void (or the falloff) and they are fine |
Red Teufel
Eternity Inc
10
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Posted - 2011.11.04 13:29:00 -
[3] - Quote
To mare wrote:remove the tracking pnalty from void (or the falloff) and they are fine
I agree or you better make the void ammo dish out way more damage to make it worth getting 2km from your target. |
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
257
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Posted - 2011.11.04 13:54:00 -
[4] - Quote
Every Caldari hybrid ship needs a look. (more drones, more speed)
Every Gallente ship with an active tanking bonus needs a change also (though not necessarily the tanking bonus) Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction |
Hungry Eyes
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
47
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Posted - 2011.11.04 14:46:00 -
[5] - Quote
please remove speed penalties from armor rigs, or just make Gall ships shield-tankers. |
Desiderya
Tirokkunone
9
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Posted - 2011.11.04 14:55:00 -
[6] - Quote
Give the optimal range bonus on caldari hulls a rethink, such as adding a 5 or 10% falloff bonus on top of it. Given the nature of hybrid ammo ( high damage, optimal debuff) and blaster turrets ( almost equal optimal and falloff ) the inherent range advantage shrinks to a basically unnoticable distance.
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Hungry Eyes
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
47
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Posted - 2011.11.04 15:03:00 -
[7] - Quote
Desiderya wrote:Give the optimal range bonus on caldari hulls a rethink, such as adding a 5 or 10% falloff bonus on top of it. Given the nature of hybrid ammo ( high damage, optimal debuff) and blaster turrets ( almost equal optimal and falloff ) the inherent range advantage shrinks to a basically unnoticable distance.
because there's no way a blaster boat can get into range before getting shredded by AC's or pulses. we're back at square one really.
rails need more damage and tracking as well. (or fix the ship bonuses) |
Bomberlocks
CTRL-Q
31
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Posted - 2011.11.04 15:12:00 -
[8] - Quote
Tallest, the problems of blasters are that the small blasters are fine and were even not too bad before these proposed changes, but that medium and large blasters need more damage to compensate for their lack of tank and speed. In stead of changing the blaster s again, why not add some range to null and some damage to medium and large antimatter ammo.
The Deimos, Brutix and Thorax all suffer compared to their Minmatar cousins (somehow no one is noticing that Amarr cruisers are even worse off, except for the Arbitrator and Zealot)
Medium Antimatter: 10% extra damage Medium Null: 10% extra falloff
Large Antimatter: 5% extra damage Large Null: 5% extra falloff |
Harotak
Malicious Destruction War Against the Manifest
5
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Posted - 2011.11.04 15:55:00 -
[9] - Quote
Additional changes I want;
Small Blasters +5% DMG Medium Blasters + 15% DMG Large Blasters +10% DMG
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Hungry Eyes
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
49
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Posted - 2011.11.04 15:58:00 -
[10] - Quote
Harotak wrote:Additional changes I want;
Small Blasters +5% DMG Medium Blasters + 15% DMG Large Blasters +10% DMG
pointless. need range through ship bonuses or a huge Null buff. |
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Daedalus Arcova
Havoc Violence and Chaos BricK sQuAD.
20
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Posted - 2011.11.04 15:58:00 -
[11] - Quote
I posted my thoughts in response to the hybrid rebalance in a different thread, so please refer to that: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=290102#post290102
Some other things: - The damage difference between the 2nd and 3rd tier railguns is too small. Give the 150, 250 and 425mm rails a bit more damage, to make them a worthy step up from the 120, 200 and 350mm calibres.
A few things about ammo: - Null ammo needs +50% for both optimal and falloff. Barrage gives a 50% falloff bonus, and Scorch gives 50% extra to range. Blasters depend on both range and falloff, so Null ought to give a 50% bonus for both, to help truly address the range issues of blasters. - Significantly increase base damage for Antimatter, Void and Javelin. This would make blasters truly melt face at close range. Railguns would be more viable for mid-range engagements, where their counterparts are actually pulse lasers and autocannons with long-range ammo. - Simplify the ammo types. There's too much granularity of range at present. Instead, make hybrid ammo more like projectile ammo, so different ammo types have different balances of thermal and kinetic damage, such as 20/80, 50/50 and 80/20. |
Harotak
Malicious Destruction War Against the Manifest
5
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Posted - 2011.11.04 16:08:00 -
[12] - Quote
Hungry Eyes wrote:Harotak wrote:Additional changes I want;
Small Blasters +5% DMG Medium Blasters + 15% DMG Large Blasters +10% DMG
pointless. need range through ship bonuses or a huge Null buff.
Change Null, Barrage, and Scorch to +50% optimal and falloff. |
Cunane Jeran
29
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Posted - 2011.11.04 16:08:00 -
[13] - Quote
Fitting wise, they are a dream. Excellent work
Rails are great, when used in conjunction with tracking mods Blasters are fine, but a little extra damage would go amiss
For those saying change it to shield, Do you really want to have to try getting a Booster/MWD/Tackle/Tank on 6 slots. Please think about it. Armour works damn well. Maybe a little more speed would be nice, but it's definitely the way forwards |
Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy Spreadsheets Online
5
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Posted - 2011.11.04 16:16:00 -
[14] - Quote
I like the changes so far for hybrids but still lacks that 1 special sauce. If I'm flying with lazors i'm almost certainly using scorch. Scorch rocks. If I'm flying with projectiles im flying with barrage. If im flying with torps, with the new buffs, I'm flying with rage torps.
Null or void just isn't really that special.
-5 second reload time could be a small differentiation. Could even make this a skill. 1second per level.. considering how rapid firing level 4 or 5 is for projetiles only.
-Null be nerfed for a short range, very high tracking would make the orbit @ 500 strats that much better.
-void penalties make it only usable on the 90% web ships. |
Hungry Eyes
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
49
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Posted - 2011.11.04 16:39:00 -
[15] - Quote
Daedalus Arcova wrote:I posted my thoughts in response to the hybrid rebalance in a different thread, so please refer to that: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=290102#post290102Some other things: - The damage difference between the 2nd and 3rd tier railguns is too small. Give the 150, 250 and 425mm rails a bit more damage, to make them a worthy step up from the 120, 200 and 350mm calibres. A few things about ammo: - Null ammo needs +50% for both optimal and falloff. Barrage gives a 50% falloff bonus, and Scorch gives 50% extra to range. Blasters depend on both range and falloff, so Null ought to give a 50% bonus for both, to help truly address the range issues of blasters. - Significantly increase base damage for Antimatter, Void and Javelin. This would make blasters truly melt face at close range. Railguns would be more viable for mid-range engagements, where their counterparts are actually pulse lasers and autocannons with long-range ammo. - Simplify the ammo types. There's too much granularity of range at present. Instead, make hybrid ammo more like projectile ammo, so different ammo types have different balances of thermal and kinetic damage, such as 20/80, 50/50 and 80/20.
i wholeheartedly support this. Tallest, you guys could resolve a LOT of issues by buffing hybrid ammo in this way. take this guy's suggestions into account. honestly, i think it's the best idea on these forums right now. |
Kiev Duran
Grand Solar Trinity
3
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Posted - 2011.11.04 17:03:00 -
[16] - Quote
I'm going to take this opportunity to quote myself from the other thread.
Kiev Duran wrote:While most people see these changes as a Gallente boost, let's not forget that Caldari use hybrids and could use a little love too.
The role that CCP seems to have envisioned for Caldari ships does not exist.
The Caldari, based on most ship bonuses, are put into the "medium damage from extreme range" role. A role that no longer truly exists on any level of play. This does not just affect railguns, but missiles also. However, I'll focus on hybrids as they are the focus of of this thread and devblog.
Extreme ranges are usually considered 150 - 250 km out, and the Caldari have several ships that can, in theory, reach out and touch someone from those ranges. The real question is why would you want to do this. Considering the simple facts that not everyone flies or enjoys flying Caldari means that several people in any sufficiently large fleet will not be able to shoot from more than about 100 - 120 km. The fleet's optimal range is only as long as the member with the shortest optimal range. This means that any Caldari pilots will be forced to fit for shooting at literally half of their optimals. This means that Caldari could potentially choose a new ammo so that he'd do more damage, but in many cases this can actually lead to a damage reduction or an insignificant increase in DPS (if not using faction ammo) as spike does do significant damage for it's range bonus. Furthermore, at any ranges exceeding the warp range, it is no trouble at all for a covert ops to place himself where the enemy fleet can simply warp to their optimals. With the changes to scanning, this can take any organized fleet as few as about 12 to 13 seconds.
In smaller scale and solo stuff long range just doesn't work because of the range of warp disruptors and scramblers.
The extreme range role simply doesn't (and perhaps cannot) exist |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
100
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Posted - 2011.11.04 17:47:00 -
[17] - Quote
i can still scan someone down in 8 seconds snippings is still useless... change the optimal range bonus for a fate of fire bonus ...
its great that blasters have good dps but thats not enough to warrent using them at such a low range limitagions we needs a massive alpha boost to make them worht while...
the tanking bonus on gal ships needs to either boosteed or changed to a armour amount per lev... that way you wont have to fit trimarks or 1600's if you want to be fast and have an armor tank.
the mrym needs 100mn band withdth to be usefull 3 heavy drones is not enough for a bc...
change the trimakrs to agility nerf from speed...
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Mariner6
EVE University Ivy League
7
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Posted - 2011.11.04 18:06:00 -
[18] - Quote
Hungry Eyes wrote:please remove speed penalties from armor rigs, or just make Gall ships shield-tankers.
Disagree. Make the sped changes directly to the Gallente ships. If you do it to rigs then you just make the other races (mostly ammar even more badass to fly. An armor tanked cane with its tiny sig radius and full speed would be absolutely devastating.) |
Mariner6
EVE University Ivy League
7
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Posted - 2011.11.04 18:06:00 -
[19] - Quote
The idea of messing with rigs seems like a poor idea. It affects too many aspects of the game and in the end will only make the other platforms that much better over the hybrid boats, particularly if Amarr gets a speed bonus from changes to armor rigs and the shield tanked Minmatar boats don't get a sig radius increase from shield rigs, because they already enjoy a very low sig radius to start with. Messing with rigs just impacts so many other aspects of ship designs of all the races. The changes need to be Gallente boats specifically. Caldari long range rails I think is simpler to deal with directly to the rail gun stats.
I think the most succinct argument to date is that there is just no good reason to fly Gallente boats. Whether you are talking solo/small groups or in bigger fleets. They tend to be more expensive and every time you go into a fight, you are committed 100%. All the other races can fight aligned or kite out of damage and warp. Even fighting within single point range is viable and can be exited from with MWD. Gallente fight inside scram/web/neut range. The cost/benefit just isn't there. In the POP,POP, POP of fleet fights its often very frustrating for a Gallente pilot to try and get into range of primary as targets change. Right as you get there, primary goes pop and now new primary is far away again. Even with frigate tackler support most Hurricanes have such high tracking that if frigs try to tackle with a scram on, they die. But scram is what is need to slow the immense speed of these ships.
There has to be a reason to fly Gallente over other options. Currently there are none, except maybe the Arazu.
SPEED/AGILITY arguments: These boats need both but I think agility cannot be overlooked or nerfed. The speed required to catch a kiting target is ridiculously high and only viable for small ships. We don't have to be faster than Minmatar, but we need a bit more than now. Tactics and using a cloaky or a inty is key to this effort. But even if you can land at zero on a kiter, by the time you align, approach, target and try to apply scram/web, they are out of range. So the ability to quickly achieve speed is key for any hope of catching targets. This also applies to orbiting w/ speed in a fight and the ability to rapidly change direction in fleet fights as different targets are called. And we must do this as we lack weapon range to be effective otherwise. CCP is on the right track with increasing this directly to Gallente ships, they just need a larger increase directly applied to overcome the rig penalties a bit. Removing rig penalties or changing them only then make the other races more appealing.
The SECOND BONUS: Any Gallente ship that has the horrible 7.5 armor repair bonus(and the stupid Thorax's MWD cap bonus) should have that replaced with something that assists with controlling range in a fight. My recommendation would be for some, like the Brutix to have a significant range bonus to SCRAMs only. Some should have a bonus to WEB velocity factor or WEB range. This would make them much more capable of achieving a lock down when warping in on someone. Catching a kiter is rarely viable in a pure speed race. That requires good use of cloaky's and inty's.
Tank: Fine, Gallente should be shield tanked to be a close in brawlers w/speed, but they are not. Even some ships that will attempt shield tanking like the Myrm and Hyperion just aren't as effective since their sig radius are already big, and when shield tanked the Myrm is almost Battleship size. A fully shield tanked cane is roughly the same sig radius as a armor tanked Mrym. CCP will not support 3 shield tanked races. So the tank needs to be impressive on a brawling, close in fighter that has to commit 100% every time to every fight. Half the reason why people don't fly gallente is that they get tired of being killed because they have to commit every time to do so. Can't warp of like every one else. So do a slight plug of the Explosive hole in every Gallente ship to help increase tank. Maybe 20% to T1 hulls, higher in others.
HYBRIDS: Ok, Blasters. They have the worst aspects of lasers and projectiles and none of the benefits. 1) Since they will deal with the highest transversal (closest to the center of the orbit circle), they should have the highest tracking. This needs serious boost since low slots on armor tanks have to be dedicated to armor unlike the shield tanked Minmatar boats. 2) Instant ammo changes to help control application of DPS in the high stress/quick decision cycle of close in fighting. 3) Much lower CAP usage as we fight in Neut territory. I'd say remove all together frankly. Or give a utility high slot to every Gallente boat for a vampire perhaps. (which some have, and probably boost performance of vampires in general) 4) Increase damage by 30%. Make them dominate the close in fight and give people a reason to commit to the fight and probably still lose their ship. 5) Increase range by just a bit of optimal. Not crazy but on some of these its damn near seems like zero. Just perhaps 10% to optimal. 6) Get rid of void's tracking/cap penalty. If you can get this close, you deserve to **** your target. DRONES: Add a Scram drone. That would help with catching kiters. They still have a chance to blow up the drones before you catch them. I would think that with 3 light scram drones applying effects, that should be enough to shut down the MWD. the other 2 are buffer or even web drones. Some of the Gallente Drone boats need some love. A bit of bandwidth would help some for the Mrym for sure.
So that's my piece of advice that will absolutely get ignored and probably trolled. |
Nemesor
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
0
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Posted - 2011.11.04 18:33:00 -
[20] - Quote
Mariner6 wrote:Make them dominate the close in fight and give people a reason to commit to the fight and probably still lose their ship.
I agree with every point of the above post. Gallente used to be the Lord Nelson "Go straight at 'em" style of ship. Now... well. No one flies most of their ships because Speed nerfs, Agility Nerfs, Armor rig nerfs, Laser and projectile buffs have all made Blaster boats completely obsolete.
I would actually encourage an even larger damage boost. To 40 percent.
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Raimo
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
15
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Posted - 2011.11.04 18:43:00 -
[21] - Quote
Harotak wrote:Additional changes I want;
Small Blasters +5% DMG Medium Blasters + 15% DMG Large Blasters +10% DMG
At least this is needed. Hybrid ammo changes would help as well. |
Kalot Sakaar
CragCO
14
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Posted - 2011.11.04 18:43:00 -
[22] - Quote
Mariner6 wrote:Hungry Eyes wrote:please remove speed penalties from armor rigs, or just make Gall ships shield-tankers. Disagree. Make the speed changes directly to the Gallente ships. If you do it to rigs then you just make the other races (mostly ammar even more badass to fly. An armor tanked cane with its tiny sig radius and full speed would be absolutely devastating.)
Agree with this. Leave rigs alone. Just finished some testing. Couldn't really see any difference that make me overcome my complete happiness with what I already fly (Amarr and Minmatar). Gallente buffs simply meh. I need to go see how a hurricane will do with the new Hail. I haven't checked to see yet if that change has been applied. |
xo3e
The Deliberate Forces HYDRA RELOADED
9
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Posted - 2011.11.04 18:57:00 -
[23] - Quote
blaster boats need more mobility or features like web range bonus on every boat. (no joking) or blasters should have much more dps to be able to kill kiting boats even if they (blaster boats) got into their optimal after some time.
because now even if blaster boat pilot is skilled enough to get into close range to his opponent - its already too late, too much damage taken and blasters dps cant compensate time spent on getting into scramrange.
moving gallente to shield tank is also a go. boss n i g g e r |
Hungry Eyes
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
50
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Posted - 2011.11.04 19:01:00 -
[24] - Quote
thanks for another Minnie buff CCP. i guess? cuz thats what we needed. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
100
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Posted - 2011.11.04 19:32:00 -
[25] - Quote
Raimo wrote:Harotak wrote:Additional changes I want;
Small Blasters +5% DMG Medium Blasters + 15% DMG Large Blasters +10% DMG
At least this is needed. Hybrid ammo changes would help as well.
or how about 10% across the board but to achieve this do a 50% increase to base damage a 30% reduction in rate of fire...
that way you get a nice alpha boost tooboot! and only shoot 1-1.5 seconds slower...
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Jiji Hamin
Federal Defence Union Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2011.11.04 19:53:00 -
[26] - Quote
while I think it's interesting to push for more hybrid ammo buffage, i also think that many people in this thread are thinking about this the wrong way.
there's a certain point at which we need to agree that we want ship diversity, and that hybrids should be balanced to do something particular, and do it will, rather than to just demand that they be able to do what other guns can. So, I actually disagree that range is what we need, we need damage, tracking and ease of fitting on blasters, and give up on the idea of their being useable in fleets. Make them hard to get in range, but epic in dps, for smaller fights, and then just buff rail tracking/dps until they can pick up the slack and cover medium ranges. web bonuses give me a boner.
similarly, we do need to figure out cladari hybrid platforms, and what can be done with them that keeps them substantively different from gellente hybrid platforms, because until caldari hybrid platforms have dronebays and damage bonuses they will always be worse at the whole "Antimatter slugger" thing then gal. so what do we want them to do? be the same? and if not, then what? design them from the ground up as railgun ships? well, that's what we already have. design them to be epic when using null? well, there's a cool idea.
finally, i'm not certain that I want to see the active armor rep bonus go. sorry, everyone. i love a triple rep hyperion. i love double rep and triple rep myrmidon. and i think that anyone who advocates those bonuses being applied to incoming RR are complete imbeciles. While some of those ships may need buffs, whether it be more agility or better hybrids or better base shield HP or resists or better armor resists or armor reps getting their HP at the beginning of the cycle or WHATEVER, but I don't think we should give up on that bonus.
ps i saw someone in this thread make a comment about amarr being overshadowed/outperformed by minmatar. never say that amarr pilots have it rough. we don't. amarr are in no need of buffing as a shipline (although i will admit that legion bites) because lasers are totally epic and we have no shortage of drones or utility highs or low slots or armor resist bonuses or neut bonuses. |
Raimo
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
16
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Posted - 2011.11.04 19:58:00 -
[27] - Quote
I'm crossposting this even though it's technically off topic... However very relevant even to the interests of this very thread:
If you want to appear as a "new" improved and caring CCP, I strongly suggest seeding the common faction ammos on SISI right about now. Asking us to test things and even test balance on SISI and *still* neglecting to provide the most used on TQ PVP ammo is so "old" (*AWESOME*) CCP. It cannot be that hard, can it? |
Jiji Hamin
Federal Defence Union Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2011.11.04 20:00:00 -
[28] - Quote
Raimo wrote:I'm crossposting this even though it's technically off topic... However very relevant even to the interests of this very thread:
If you want to appear as a "new" improved and caring CCP, I strongly suggest seeding the common faction ammos on SISI right about now. Asking us to test things and even test balance on SISI and *still* neglecting to provide the most used on TQ PVP ammo is so "old" (*AWESOME*) CCP. It cannot be that hard, can it?
+1billion |
Kyoko Sakoda
Veto. Veto Corp
5
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Posted - 2011.11.04 20:15:00 -
[29] - Quote
There is still a little too much cap use. A Rokh with 8x 425mm Railgun IIs and 2x Power Diagnostic System IIs still has some issues maintaining capacitor. I of course think that if the ship is capped out, it shouldn't be able to fire, but it should be able to sustain fire on its own. |
Autonomous Monster
Paradox Interstellar
5
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Posted - 2011.11.04 20:26:00 -
[30] - Quote
Pattern Clarc wrote:Every Gallente ship with an active tanking bonus needs a change also (though not necessarily the tanking bonus) Active tanking in general needs looks at. Changing the rep bonus to
Quote:7.5% bonus to armor repair amount of armor repair systems and remote repair received per level. might be a start. Changing the penalty for active armour rigs (and only active rigs, not Trimarks) to something else might help; pg/cpu/cap use of reps, agility maybe. I get that you're supposed to be trading off speed tank for other types of tank, but losing range control at the same time is a killer. Maybe a sig radius penalty...?
I'm not fond of the shield tanking solution. It'd require reworking the slot layouts of most of the Gallente lineup, and would screw over any Gallente pilot who hasn't cross-specced into armour. I think we should at least try to make the current paradigm work before we burn it down and start over.
I don't want to EFT warrior, so I'm not going to comment on the changes so far until I've actually tested them... but I do think a (small) DPS buff to blasters or a nerf to ACs (and maybe pulses at short range) might be warranted. Something to give the greens a real edge in point blank damage output. |
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