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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 11 post(s) |
Hungry Eyes
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
374
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Posted - 2011.11.24 20:28:00 -
[1171] - Quote
Daedalus Arcova wrote: stop making us both look like idiots
you already got that covered bud. later.
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Daedalus Arcova
Havoc Violence and Chaos
264
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Posted - 2011.11.24 20:43:00 -
[1172] - Quote
Unless it's in the context of saying "rails are so hard to fit, the only way I can make them work is on a 500m ISK Tech 3 cruiser", I don't want to read any more about your Proteus. Kindly stop derailing the thread. |
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
138
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Posted - 2011.11.24 21:05:00 -
[1173] - Quote
Hungry Eyes wrote:Ganthrithor wrote:Also, the Cynabal isn't too ridiculous-- it's like a marginally improved Vagabond that does less dps. nah, it is. the Cynabal is really fast and has one hell of a shield buffer, while retaining most of the Vaga's dps. this is why the Vaga is not used any longer.
I don't know who you fly with, but while there are a handful of people I know who choose to fly Cynabals over other ships, the majority of people don't feel like risking a 500m isk faction-fit pirate ship on a daily basis. They fly fly Vagas instead.
When you consider the massive difference in price (a fitted Vaga is ~150m isk), the Cynabal really is a marginal improvement on the Vaga-- if you look at both ships with all 5's skills, you'll see that they are almost identical in speed, dps output, and tank, and cap stability. The Cynabal has two advantages over the Vaga-- almost double the agility, and higher scan-res. I don't think its fair to call that "ridiculous," especially since its a much more expensive hull that also basically requires a 150m isk faction point to be fit properly due to CPU limitations. Sure, if you compare a both-cruiser 5's Cynabal to a HAC 4 Vaga, the Cynabal looks like a way better ship, but that's not exactly a fair comparison... |
Spugg Galdon
Callidus Temple Forsaken.Empire
117
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Posted - 2011.11.24 21:10:00 -
[1174] - Quote
Zarak1 Kenpach1 wrote:the rail prot is viable. that linked fit is terrible.
Only fully agree with the bolded part.
I've been looking into a lot of potential fits with this buff and to be honest, although it is still very conservative, hybrids seem okay. Although medium rails still feel very underpowered.
The biggest issue now I believe is first; the hulls they fit on, and second; the useless ammo. As I've said before, decent versatile ammo is what we need next. And this is what I would love to see:-
2x Short range high damage offering damage choice within the guns limitations Antimatter (Short rng Thermal) : Remains as is High Thermal low Kinetic damage Lead (Short rng Kinetic) : As AM with hi kinetic low Thermal
2x short to mid range "Specialised" ammo Uranium (Short rng Hi RoF) : +50% Rof -50% dmg -25% optimal -25% falloff Plutonium (Short rng Hi tracking) : -25% optimal & falloff +10% tracking low dmg
2x Mid range ammo catering for both Gallente and Caldari hulls Thorium (Hi falloff low optimal) : +50% Falloff Iridium (Hi optimal Low falloff) : +50% Optimal
2x Long range ammo. One for sniping (unless you have alpha you can't really snipe) and the other for extreme long range. Tungsten (Sniper/Alpha low RoF) : +75% dmg -75% Rof +40% optimal & falloff +75% Cap use Iron (Extreme long range) : +60% Optimal & fall off
And something similar for energy turrets:-
2x Short range high damage offering damage choice within the guns limitations Multifrequency (short range EM) : Remains as is except high EM low Thermal Infra-red (Short rng Thermal) : As MF but with hi thermal damage
2x "Specialised" short to mid range ammo Gamma (short range hi RoF) : +50% RoF -50% Damage -50% optimal X-Ray (Short Range hi tracking) : -50% optimal +10% tracking low dmg
2x Mid range ammo Ultraviolet (Mid range Mid dmg) : +25% optimal Standard (V.Low Cap Use Mid Rng) : +25% optimal -50% cap use -20% damage
2x Long range ammo. One for sniping (unless you have alpha you can't really snipe) and the other for extreme long range. Microwave (Sniper/Alpha low RoF) : +75% dmg -75% Rof +40% optimal +75% Cap use Radio (Extreme long range) : +60% optimal |
M1AU
Farstriders New Eden Industrie Alliance
46
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Posted - 2011.11.24 22:02:00 -
[1175] - Quote
Archare wrote:M1AU wrote:If I think about it loudly, a Brutix with a Bonus to Webifier Drones in addition to the Hybrid Weapon Damage bonus could probably work. Ideally even in a 1v1 unless the drones are significantly bonused I don't think the brutix would be able to close distance. Currently proposed but not published changes to web drones pulled from http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/sisi_changes.php are warriors doing 5% per drone and valkyries doing 10% per done. With 5 drones that will equal a roughly a -15% and -31% web effect. Taking for example a Shield brutix and hurricane and load 5 web drones here are the speed numbers. Brutix (on Sisi) goes 1687 m/s overheated. With a flight of light web drones that would drop to 1433 m/s. Hurricane Is 1894 m/s, which drops to 1306 m/s with a flight of medium drones. This allows the Brutix to close speed at a whopping 127 m/s which if they were 20km apart would take about 86 seconds to get within non overheated scram range. Granted this would be an improvement from forever but over the course of those 86 seconds the hurricane would be doing on average 491 dps, or (491*86) 42268 points of total damage*. Over the same distance a Brutix will do roughly 200 dps over the same distance or 17200 total points of damage. If they gave bonuses to web drones the bonus to webbing speed per drone would have to increased by at least 20% per level for an idea to be even worthwhile due to stacking penalties. and even then since they're drones so both sides can kill them and we're back at square one. *dps values are rough calculations with RF ammo and not barrage, and null ammo loaded in the brutix. Both ships using the largest medium sized weaponry, and assuming the brutix is just beelining aproach on a cane that is burning straight away in one direction. Yes I know falloff damage is not linear, but for the small sample window is good enough for estimation.
Fair point. The idea was to give the Brutix an unique ability which could possibly free up on a mid slot and wasn't that hard to train for, for a tier 1 battlecruiser. Though it's probably better to let the Brutix and also the Hyperion stay with a tanking bonus of any kind. I actually also like the idea of a half cycle time / half cap need double-bonus of armor repairs, but I don't have any numbers to support it. |
Zarak1 Kenpach1
Aperture Harmonics K162
40
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Posted - 2011.11.24 22:32:00 -
[1176] - Quote
Daedalus Arcova wrote:Unless it's in the context of saying "rails are so hard to fit, the only way I can make them work is on a 500m ISK Tech 3 cruiser", I don't want to read any more about your Proteus. Kindly stop derailing the thread.
t3's and pirate hulls for the win
you are a poor bad that should stop typing |
Morehei Atlas
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2011.11.24 22:40:00 -
[1177] - Quote
Think i might be going off topic but does anybody know if large rails will get the tracking buff they are badly in need off? The cap use balance is very welcome and a long time coming ie navy mega needs 4-5 cap mods just to have guns cap stable. Such a mega ship on paper but majorly handicapped in reality. Trained, built, used it for a few missions then sold all the nice faction mods because it just wasn't effective.
Leads me to my next point....gallente pilots are forced to cross train as the gall weapon systems are pants and have been for sometime. Other factions consolidate their skils while we are forced into time consuming cross training to get ships that are better for pve.....a major isk source for first time pilots.
I hope ccp don't go half-baked on hybrids balancing. I've already done some major cross training and evan with the buff as it stands gall battleships are pants for pve and probs won't bother with them again. |
thoth rothschild
First Aid Emergency Service
67
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Posted - 2011.11.24 22:51:00 -
[1178] - Quote
Giving dedicated blaster bouts a drone bonus is the most ******** idea i ever heared of. Drones are terrible for pvp. Killing a single small baby drone of your bunch will make all other 4 small baby drones entirely useless again. Do never ever rely on them. Most heartbreaking point on this web drone bonus idea is the loss of some other bonus on a ship not designed for drone usage. If you want to do a webbing job use a module designed for webbing or do put this bonus on a ship where it belongs to..... a drone boat with a hughe drone bay and not in need to hope that the bunch of drones ALL do survive.
It's like giving the eos a bonus like "needs less jumpfuel while using enemy jump bridges" Combat Gun ships are no viable drone platforms and that is good !
Yes i can use drones, yes i like them and i will use them but i won't rely on them for my survival.
i do rely on things like: cap boosters, power neutralizers, stasis webifiers, mwd |
Maxsim Goratiev
The Scope Gallente Federation
34
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Posted - 2011.11.24 23:54:00 -
[1179] - Quote
thoth rothschild wrote:Drones are terrible for pvp *Cough* *Cough* Domi pilot <<<
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Zarak1 Kenpach1
Aperture Harmonics K162
40
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Posted - 2011.11.25 00:44:00 -
[1180] - Quote
umm no?
drones in pvp can be quite formidable
everything used in a proper context has a place in pvp. |
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Daedalus Arcova
Havoc Violence and Chaos
264
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Posted - 2011.11.25 00:47:00 -
[1181] - Quote
Random thought (partly as a result of Hungry Eyes' infuriating Proteus wankery). Why the hell is the Proteus so damn slow?
With Localised Injectors (which gives the most speed out of the Gallente propulsion sybsystems) the speed of a naked Proteus (with L5 skills) is only 238m/s. That's slower than every T2 Gallente cruiser bar the Arazu. The other subsystems are even worse, with two of them doing a paltry 188m/s (again, all L5s).
Once you start putting the mandatory plate(s) and trimarks on, it may as well not have engines at all.
Here it is against the other races' fastest propulsion subsystems (all L5 skills):
Loki - Chassis Optimisation: 297m/s Legion - Chassis Optimisation: 281m/s Proteus - Localised Injectors: 238m/s Tengu - Gravitational Capacitor: 231m/s
Seems a bit odd that the Proteus is only marginally faster than the Tengu, and significantly slower than the Legion (which in turn, is not much slower than a Loki). It's not like the Amarr are renowned for their mobility, is it?
The Proteus was overlooked in the Crucible blaster boat speed buff. It looks like it do with a serious boost. An immobile brick with massive ehp and a long point is a bit too limited a role for a T3 ship. Give it a serious speed buff. |
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
371
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Posted - 2011.11.25 01:15:00 -
[1182] - Quote
Strategic Cruisers are really BCs in everything but sig radius. IE, they are all pretty ******* slow. Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction |
Daedalus Arcova
Havoc Violence and Chaos
264
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Posted - 2011.11.25 01:25:00 -
[1183] - Quote
I don't buy that. The other 3 SCs are all a fair bit faster than their respective races' HACs (with the exception of the Vagabond, but that's... well, a Vagabond).
The Proteus is the odd one out. It's like the propulsion subsystems for Gallente and Amarr got mixed up. |
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy Tactical Narcotics Team
97
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Posted - 2011.11.25 15:26:00 -
[1184] - Quote
On the other hand Proteus is the single T3 that can get the most insane buffer tank sporting 400k EHP or more - Maybe they accidentally switched a few stats between the Proteus and the Legion? |
Zarak1 Kenpach1
Aperture Harmonics K162
40
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Posted - 2011.11.25 16:40:00 -
[1185] - Quote
We fly T3's on the daily and I think Pattern will back me up when I say that I have never heard anyone on comms talk about getting any of the T3's, Loki included, for their awesome speed.
T3's are like BC's with hac resists. That is why folks fly them. |
Daedalus Arcova
Havoc Violence and Chaos
264
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Posted - 2011.11.25 17:16:00 -
[1186] - Quote
Zarak1 Kenpach1 wrote:We fly T3's on the daily and I think Pattern will back me up when I say that I have never heard anyone on comms talk about getting any of the T3's, Loki included, for their awesome speed.
Well, obviously. But speed is still very important, particularly for a ship that in fleets is almost always employed as a tackler, and when flying solo as a blasterboat.
Speed may not be the deciding factor in buying or fitting one, or incorporating one into a fleet, but speed still has a significant impact on its effectiveness. |
Hungry Eyes
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
374
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Posted - 2011.11.25 17:26:00 -
[1187] - Quote
stop talking about t3's u scrub. u dont know what youre saying, and thread has been completely derailed. i posted that fuckin fit to show you that rails work on the Proteus. |
Vincent Gaines
245
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Posted - 2011.11.25 17:44:00 -
[1188] - Quote
Hungry Eyes wrote:stop talking about t3's u scrub. u dont know what youre saying, and thread has been completely derailed. i posted that fuckin fit to show you that rails work on the Proteus.
there's a difference between having rails work on the ship, and rails being effective on the ship.
you have yet to address the latter. |
Daedalus Arcova
Havoc Violence and Chaos
264
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Posted - 2011.11.25 18:04:00 -
[1189] - Quote
Hungry Eyes wrote:stop talking about t3's u scrub. u dont know what youre saying, and thread has been completely derailed. i posted that fuckin fit to show you that rails work on the Proteus.
You were talking about (at great length) one rail-using shitfit. I'm talking about the balancing of a hybrid ship in the wider context. This is a thread about balancing hybrids and hybrid ships, is it not? |
Jaigar
Mom 'n' Pop Ammo Shoppe R.E.P.O.
35
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Posted - 2011.11.25 18:31:00 -
[1190] - Quote
Daedalus Arcova wrote:Hungry Eyes wrote:stop talking about t3's u scrub. u dont know what youre saying, and thread has been completely derailed. i posted that fuckin fit to show you that rails work on the Proteus. You were talking about (at great length) one rail-using shitfit. I'm talking about the balancing of a hybrid ship in the wider context. This is a thread about balancing hybrids and hybrid ships, is it not?
Yup, should really get back on topic here.
Back to medium railguns, with the introduction of these new tier 3 BCs which most of them kite, will be it beneficial to start using more medium railguns? I like the idea of rails and other weapon systems to force longer range eWAR ships off the field, but with the current crucible changes, will the rail change be enough? |
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Vincent Gaines
245
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Posted - 2011.11.25 19:34:00 -
[1191] - Quote
Jaigar wrote:Back to medium railguns, with the introduction of these new tier 3 BCs which most of them kite, will be it beneficial to start using more medium railguns? I like the idea of rails and other weapon systems to force longer range eWAR ships off the field, but with the current crucible changes, will the rail change be enough?
I can tell you about the Eagle, and Tengu
An Eagle can't fit a full rack of 250s, even with AWU V.
Tracking sucks and even when at 110-150 can't hit. I haven't tried the new changes with an Eagle yet, however with the bonuses I think they should change.
The Tangrail did okay. It was hard to tell when I tested it on SISI. Not as much range but it had a decent tank and was cap stable. Horribly eclipsed as anything viable in PvP versus missile launchers.
If the Eagle is supposed to irritate EWAR, snipe frigs and destroyers the damage bonus might be better off changing to 7.5% tracking bonus per level. |
Naomi Knight
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
199
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Posted - 2011.11.25 19:41:00 -
[1192] - Quote
Railgun tracking should be doubled:P |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
856
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Posted - 2011.11.25 20:00:00 -
[1193] - Quote
Maxsim Goratiev wrote:thoth rothschild wrote:Drones are terrible for pvp *Cough* *Cough* Domi pilot <<<
That guy never met some fleet of sentry domis spider rep/remote energy |
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
371
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Posted - 2011.11.26 00:53:00 -
[1194] - Quote
Pinky Denmark wrote:On the other hand Proteus is the single T3 that can get the most insane buffer tank sporting 400k EHP or more - Maybe they accidentally switched a few stats between the Proteus and the Legion? **** with the proteuses buffer tank and toys will be thrown out of the pram in a big way. Remember that survival statergy thing i mentioned? Thats what it looks like. Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction |
Maxsim Goratiev
The Scope Gallente Federation
34
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Posted - 2011.11.26 02:36:00 -
[1195] - Quote
Daedalus Arcova wrote:
Seems a bit odd that the Proteus is only marginally faster than the Tengu, and significantly slower than the Legion (which in turn, is not much slower than a Loki). It's not like the Amarr are renowned for their mobility, is it?
The Proteus was overlooked in the Crucible blaster boat speed buff. It looks like it do with a serious boost. An immobile brick with massive ehp and a long point is a bit too limited a role for a T3 ship. Give it a serious speed buff.
that is stupid indeed. Why the hell is amarr faster? That does not make sense, CCP, plz fix/
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Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
856
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Posted - 2011.11.26 02:47:00 -
[1196] - Quote
Maxsim Goratiev wrote:Daedalus Arcova wrote:
Seems a bit odd that the Proteus is only marginally faster than the Tengu, and significantly slower than the Legion (which in turn, is not much slower than a Loki). It's not like the Amarr are renowned for their mobility, is it?
The Proteus was overlooked in the Crucible blaster boat speed buff. It looks like it do with a serious boost. An immobile brick with massive ehp and a long point is a bit too limited a role for a T3 ship. Give it a serious speed buff.
that is stupid indeed. Why the hell is amarr faster? That does not make sense, CCP, plz fix/
Ho dammit very sure every sub combination were tested to arrive at this awesome conclusion right? Because atm the only way to make that legion be faster is by sacrificing another stat of those propulsion subs , unless I'm wrong and taking in account subs fitted only, no mods prop whatsoever.
What subs did you fitted for each? -I mean you can say a lot of stuff but without numbers, and from what I can see on SISI, my prot is not bad, slightly better than before. + definitive changes aren't sat since CCP tallest is about to improve ship by ship what's needed to make those work properly.
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Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
856
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Posted - 2011.11.26 02:52:00 -
[1197] - Quote
Pinky Denmark wrote:On the other hand Proteus is the single T3 that can get the most insane buffer tank sporting 400k EHP or more
OC every time I use my Proteus I fit HG slaves + hardwirings +fleet boost + 25M boosters !!
How is this fair when I fly my poor tengu tanking like a king with crystals + booster+sub+amplifier+fleet boost+hardwirings+passive regen...
Indeed this is not fair ;(
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Justin Cody
T.A.L.O.N. Company Psychotic Tendencies.
24
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Posted - 2011.11.26 04:32:00 -
[1198] - Quote
The problem with rails is that they were designed to fight at a distance that no longer is workable (thanks to the 250km locking cap) and insta-probing to warp your close range fleet on them.
Rails on cruisers and BC's can't compete with a similar alpha fleet because you can't fit a tank hard enough to actually compensate for the alpha fleet's alpha.
A rokh is one exception...but still blasters with some remote boosting can hit with null for 600 dps or so at 80km...
ranged fighting is outdated and has been nerf'd to hell against caldari/gallente rail boats in favor of lasers and artillery at what used to be medium but are now relatively long ranges that you cannot warp to with probes unless you already have the warp-in on the fleet or titan cyno bridge, |
Maxsim Goratiev
The Scope Gallente Federation
34
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Posted - 2011.11.26 11:40:00 -
[1199] - Quote
the solution is simple: let's extend locking range and warp-to range. That's makes the battlefield bigger, that's only fun. I can easily set up my Rokh to hit at 280 km, and that's not even all lvl 5's. Gun's optimal exceeding your locking range is silly. People warping to your sniper is also silly. |
Sirius Cassiopeiae
Perkone Caldari State
94
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Posted - 2011.11.26 12:09:00 -
[1200] - Quote
Maxsim Goratiev wrote:the solution is simple: let's extend locking range and warp-to range. That's makes the battlefield bigger, that's only fun. I can easily set up my Rokh to hit at 280 km, and that's not even all lvl 5's. Gun's optimal exceeding your locking range is silly. People warping to your sniper is also silly.
THIS, THIS, THIIIIIIIIIIIIIIS!!! |
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