EVE Search - Notice to ALL Corporations

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Dukath	Posted - 2003.09.05 08:02:00 - [31] If you as CEO give the spy access to your 'private' forums then there IS NO INVASION. YOU and only YOU are responsible for giving access to those forums and if that said spy leaks information to other then its your own fault. If however the info has been obtained by hacking then of course you can bring in all the lagality you want. But then the burden of proof is on your side. Where are all the logs that show the hacking attempt? Simply hiding behind the fact that 'this is my personal webpage' is lame.
Dukath Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2003.09.05 08:02:00 - [32] If you as CEO give the spy access to your 'private' forums then there IS NO INVASION. YOU and only YOU are responsible for giving access to those forums and if that said spy leaks information to other then its your own fault. If however the info has been obtained by hacking then of course you can bring in all the lagality you want. But then the burden of proof is on your side. Where are all the logs that show the hacking attempt? Simply hiding behind the fact that 'this is my personal webpage' is lame.
edudtset	Posted - 2003.09.05 08:14:00 - [33] bringing rl crap to other gamers shows the kind of scum tti are worse then an ingame exploiter
edudtset	Posted - 2003.09.05 08:14:00 - [34] bringing rl crap to other gamers shows the kind of scum tti are worse then an ingame exploiter
Danton Marcellus	Posted - 2003.09.05 12:22:00 - [35] So by default allowing players to join your corporation at all should mean you're to be screwed with without being able to take any countermeassures? Man I almost feel like putting in an analogy here to make you look real stupid. Convert Stations
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2003.09.05 12:22:00 - [36] So by default allowing players to join your corporation at all should mean you're to be screwed with without being able to take any countermeassures? Man I almost feel like putting in an analogy here to make you look real stupid. Also Known As
Kuole Zhilarsk	Posted - 2003.09.05 15:06:00 - [37] Quote: I have no problem with in-game spying. Joining other corps in game is part of the game and it's all good... I do have a problem with invasion of private forums. That is not in game and not cool. Yes it is "about the game", but not "in the game". Big difference... The game server is CCP's and the forum server is my private proparty. So, spy in game all you want, it is cool. Of course I know TTI has spies, and if we find them they are dead (in game). Ah, this is the part we disagree on then. The thing is, any important news or information is not going to be garnered through Eve ingame. It would be on IRC or through boards. The only way to pass on this information is to get into them. What I approve of is the actual infiltration of the corporation. What I do not approve of is the hacking aspect. When you accept a member and give them access to the forums, you must be aware that they may be working for another person. It is the corporations responsibility to defeat such espionage by bringing in security checks and security levels. What a corporation should not have to do is build in lots of virus protection, firewalls, routers, backup servers and the like to protect against harmful spy techniques that are also illegal. End of the day whilst you may consider it an invasion of your private forums, you need allow them access in the first place (this is for the people you accept into your corp). To the last sentence in that, too right. Kill spies on sight ingame and kick them from the corporation - or use them to your benefit. Quote: I really wish CCP would implement a feature they talked about in beta that allows CEOs to see all alternate characters of their employees. However, if they do that I belive spying should still be allowed with a "Spying skill", which if high enough would let them avoid detection by the CEO or coproate security's skill level. I dunno... needs some design work but you know what I zm getting at. I disagree at this stage of the game. Such an option would essentially kill espionage except for the people who can afford to buy another copy of the game with cd-key to use as a spy account. Thats just one exploitation to get around it, and I'm sure others can be thought of. Also, I think CCP have far greater things to worry about - things that Corporations cant solve by themselves. Corps just need to be vigilent to spies and to act in accordance to the fact that espionage is rife. In the future, making espionage an actual skill/career in the game may be interesting. I respect your viewpoint however, as mine is jaded from my time in Planetarion.
Kuole Zhilarsk Caldari The Legion.	Posted - 2003.09.05 15:06:00 - [38] Quote: I have no problem with in-game spying. Joining other corps in game is part of the game and it's all good... I do have a problem with invasion of private forums. That is not in game and not cool. Yes it is "about the game", but not "in the game". Big difference... The game server is CCP's and the forum server is my private proparty. So, spy in game all you want, it is cool. Of course I know TTI has spies, and if we find them they are dead (in game). Ah, this is the part we disagree on then. The thing is, any important news or information is not going to be garnered through Eve ingame. It would be on IRC or through boards. The only way to pass on this information is to get into them. What I approve of is the actual infiltration of the corporation. What I do not approve of is the hacking aspect. When you accept a member and give them access to the forums, you must be aware that they may be working for another person. It is the corporations responsibility to defeat such espionage by bringing in security checks and security levels. What a corporation should not have to do is build in lots of virus protection, firewalls, routers, backup servers and the like to protect against harmful spy techniques that are also illegal. End of the day whilst you may consider it an invasion of your private forums, you need allow them access in the first place (this is for the people you accept into your corp). To the last sentence in that, too right. Kill spies on sight ingame and kick them from the corporation - or use them to your benefit. Quote: I really wish CCP would implement a feature they talked about in beta that allows CEOs to see all alternate characters of their employees. However, if they do that I belive spying should still be allowed with a "Spying skill", which if high enough would let them avoid detection by the CEO or coproate security's skill level. I dunno... needs some design work but you know what I zm getting at. I disagree at this stage of the game. Such an option would essentially kill espionage except for the people who can afford to buy another copy of the game with cd-key to use as a spy account. Thats just one exploitation to get around it, and I'm sure others can be thought of. Also, I think CCP have far greater things to worry about - things that Corporations cant solve by themselves. Corps just need to be vigilent to spies and to act in accordance to the fact that espionage is rife. In the future, making espionage an actual skill/career in the game may be interesting. I respect your viewpoint however, as mine is jaded from my time in Planetarion.
Athule Snanm	Posted - 2003.09.05 15:21:00 - [39] Spying using an alt - rubbish, I hate it, in-game or on people's boards. Impossible to regulate though so it's pointless complaining. In reality, although it's distasteful, so long as these spies on report on IC discussion then you just have to live with it. Spying using your proper character or a paid other person is fine IMHO. I'm afraid that in that case that if you have an in-character forum then in-character posts there are probably fair game if the spy is a person's primary. Repeating OOC posts on the other hand, whether you're a spy or not isn't on. In that case you're not spying you're just scum, pure and simple. The final case would be someone hacking into a forum, IRC or whatever - this is just plain illegal. Banning and possible police action should be the ultimate sanction if proved. Although none of my business, it would be interesting to know what happened to Ctaesis over this sort of activity...apart from being deemed 'quite funny' by another TTi member? _______________________________ Doomheim - EVE's only hygiene!
Athule Snanm Amarr Blue Apple Industries	Posted - 2003.09.05 15:21:00 - [40] Spying using an alt - rubbish, I hate it, in-game or on people's boards. Impossible to regulate though so it's pointless complaining. In reality, although it's distasteful, so long as these spies on report on IC discussion then you just have to live with it. Spying using your proper character or a paid other person is fine IMHO. I'm afraid that in that case that if you have an in-character forum then in-character posts there are probably fair game if the spy is a person's primary. Repeating OOC posts on the other hand, whether you're a spy or not isn't on. In that case you're not spying you're just scum, pure and simple. The final case would be someone hacking into a forum, IRC or whatever - this is just plain illegal. Banning and possible police action should be the ultimate sanction if proved. Although none of my business, it would be interesting to know what happened to Ctaesis over this sort of activity...apart from being deemed 'quite funny' by another TTi member? _______________________________ Doomheim - EVE's only hygiene!
Fortoye Drak	Posted - 2003.09.05 15:51:00 - [41] Quote: I do have a problem with invasion of private forums. That is not in game and not cool. Yes it is "about the game", but not "in the game". Big difference... The game server is CCP's and the forum server is my private proparty. So, spy in game all you want, it is cool. Of course I know TTI has spies, and if we find them they are dead (in game). Unfortunately you fail to address the key point. I am a spy master. I deal with characters that are solidly in-game on a regular basis. They give me information and invariably most do so in a RP fashion. Now one of my spies tells me your new pirate alliance is to be called "The North Star Alliance". You can throw as many fits as you like about invasion of privacy and how information from a forum cant be used because, frankly, its not relevant. (s)He told me in game. That's it end of matter. Your problems with leaks is your problem , not ours. The fact that that information may be on your forums is entirely irrelevant. You can not and do not control the right of people to pass on information Ragnar. Its irrespective of any half-arsed disclaimers on your website and it is not a breach of copyright of privacy laws anywhere in the western world. Simple - learn to live with it and stop believing you "own" peoples right to think and that you can restrict free speech in game. Finally it is NOT, nor ever will be, "invasion" - you gave these people access yourself. So stop making out every leak is some hacker-story worthy of an FBI investigation or RL corporate espionage. There is no need for any of the "features" you ask for. Anybody with half a clue about counter-espionage can catch spies. Maybe use your wealth and experience to get someone to fix your leaks rather than trying to stop the leaks by attacking those who publish them (because we know how that isnt working). If you'd done this from the start (and got rid of dead characters and sleeps from tti) you wouldn't have so many bloody leaks in the first place. This mess is of your own making through lax internal security, poor procedures and wanting high rosters numbers over good security. Pay me 500 Million ISK and I guarentee you I can clear TTi of spies within 4 weeks. Press Liason Big-Bang Burger Bar - Neocom Site
Fortoye Drak Caldari Doomheim	Posted - 2003.09.05 15:51:00 - [42] Quote: I do have a problem with invasion of private forums. That is not in game and not cool. Yes it is "about the game", but not "in the game". Big difference... The game server is CCP's and the forum server is my private proparty. So, spy in game all you want, it is cool. Of course I know TTI has spies, and if we find them they are dead (in game). Unfortunately you fail to address the key point. I am a spy master. I deal with characters that are solidly in-game on a regular basis. They give me information and invariably most do so in a RP fashion. Now one of my spies tells me your new pirate alliance is to be called "The North Star Alliance". You can throw as many fits as you like about invasion of privacy and how information from a forum cant be used because, frankly, its not relevant. (s)He told me in game. That's it end of matter. Your problems with leaks is your problem , not ours. The fact that that information may be on your forums is entirely irrelevant. You can not and do not control the right of people to pass on information Ragnar. Its irrespective of any half-arsed disclaimers on your website and it is not a breach of copyright of privacy laws anywhere in the western world. Simple - learn to live with it and stop believing you "own" peoples right to think and that you can restrict free speech in game. Finally it is NOT, nor ever will be, "invasion" - you gave these people access yourself. So stop making out every leak is some hacker-story worthy of an FBI investigation or RL corporate espionage. There is no need for any of the "features" you ask for. Anybody with half a clue about counter-espionage can catch spies. Maybe use your wealth and experience to get someone to fix your leaks rather than trying to stop the leaks by attacking those who publish them (because we know how that isnt working). If you'd done this from the start (and got rid of dead characters and sleeps from tti) you wouldn't have so many bloody leaks in the first place. This mess is of your own making through lax internal security, poor procedures and wanting high rosters numbers over good security. Pay me 500 Million ISK and I guarentee you I can clear TTi of spies within 4 weeks. Press Liason Big-Bang Burger Bar - Neocom Site
Calladen Nimitz	Posted - 2003.09.05 17:59:00 - [43] I also believe spying in game is acceptable and allowed but I have a problem with "spies" having access to private website information or handing it out. Not so much because its "private" but for another reason. Has anyone seen the leader of "The Gang" in the last couple of months? No. Do you know why? Because someone found out who he was in real life and he received real life threats against his family. Threats which included comments relating to ingame activities and information. When we're dealing with people (not all of us but some to be sure) who are immature and irresponsible its clear they can't be expected to behave in a civil manner. The fact that I've had to press the issue against the person sending TTI viruses and work toward his arrest in Sweeden is proof of that. Because so many corporations use their forums for personal information as well as "ingame" information (birth announcements, wedding pictures, vacation trips and reunions) I think it's clear there is alot of potential for abuse. My personal opinion is that ingame spying is ok. Spying thru the forums is also "OK" but posting forum information "word for word" for all to see is NOT OK. Mainly I believe a spy can and should infiltrate and pass on information.... HOWEVER.... doing so and posting it on another public forum isn't proper. Just my two cents on the subject but I think the Gang example (relayed to me by another Gang member who asked I not reveal his identity - it was an "alt" a few months ago) indicates why this is such a grey area. If a spy sees something on a forum like "ABC corp will attack DEF corp tonight at midnight GMT" that is certainly ingame info. But posting that information publically on another medium is not proper. He can tell it like a source to the president of DEF "Hey, I have reliable information that ABC is going to attack you". But to cut and paste that on the public eve forum for all to see isn't proper in my view. Calladen
Calladen Nimitz Caldari Sovereign Enterprises	Posted - 2003.09.05 17:59:00 - [44] I also believe spying in game is acceptable and allowed but I have a problem with "spies" having access to private website information or handing it out. Not so much because its "private" but for another reason. Has anyone seen the leader of "The Gang" in the last couple of months? No. Do you know why? Because someone found out who he was in real life and he received real life threats against his family. Threats which included comments relating to ingame activities and information. When we're dealing with people (not all of us but some to be sure) who are immature and irresponsible its clear they can't be expected to behave in a civil manner. The fact that I've had to press the issue against the person sending TTI viruses and work toward his arrest in Sweeden is proof of that. Because so many corporations use their forums for personal information as well as "ingame" information (birth announcements, wedding pictures, vacation trips and reunions) I think it's clear there is alot of potential for abuse. My personal opinion is that ingame spying is ok. Spying thru the forums is also "OK" but posting forum information "word for word" for all to see is NOT OK. Mainly I believe a spy can and should infiltrate and pass on information.... HOWEVER.... doing so and posting it on another public forum isn't proper. Just my two cents on the subject but I think the Gang example (relayed to me by another Gang member who asked I not reveal his identity - it was an "alt" a few months ago) indicates why this is such a grey area. If a spy sees something on a forum like "ABC corp will attack DEF corp tonight at midnight GMT" that is certainly ingame info. But posting that information publically on another medium is not proper. He can tell it like a source to the president of DEF "Hey, I have reliable information that ABC is going to attack you". But to cut and paste that on the public eve forum for all to see isn't proper in my view. Calladen SOVEREIGN ENTERPRISES WEBPAGE AND FORUMS
Femme Fatal	Posted - 2003.09.05 18:03:00 - [45] I dont think there is anything wrong with infiltrating another alliance to win ingame information (even if it is from their forum). The forums are just an extension of ingame communication methods, and therefore CEOs should be careful to whom they release what information on forums. Its totally different ofc when comes to releasing or passing on information regarding peoples family, location, or whatever no matter if obtained ingame or from forums. That kinda stuff doesnt belong in a game, and should be responded to accordingly.
Femme Fatal Going Limp	Posted - 2003.09.05 18:03:00 - [46] I dont think there is anything wrong with infiltrating another alliance to win ingame information (even if it is from their forum). The forums are just an extension of ingame communication methods, and therefore CEOs should be careful to whom they release what information on forums. Its totally different ofc when comes to releasing or passing on information regarding peoples family, location, or whatever no matter if obtained ingame or from forums. That kinda stuff doesnt belong in a game, and should be responded to accordingly.
Ulstan	Posted - 2003.09.05 18:04:00 - [47] "Because someone found out who he was in real life and he received real life threats against his family." Just in case it's not clear, he was receiving these real life threats on his real life phone, addressing him under his in game name.
Ulstan Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2003.09.05 18:04:00 - [48] "Because someone found out who he was in real life and he received real life threats against his family." Just in case it's not clear, he was receiving these real life threats on his real life phone, addressing him under his in game name.
Fortoye Drak	Posted - 2003.09.06 02:51:00 - [49] Quote: If a spy sees something on a forum like "ABC corp will attack DEF corp tonight at midnight GMT" that is certainly ingame info. But posting that information publically on another medium is not proper. He can tell it like a source to the president of DEF "Hey, I have reliable information that ABC is going to attack you". But to cut and paste that on the public eve forum for all to see isn't proper in my view. The rest was quite sensibly but this doesnt make sense, other than to back-cover something that TTi has allready objected to on that very basis. ABC corp is either attacking at midnight or it isnt - the wording in the context is irrelvant. To suggest somebody only gives part of the information , and in this case the msot useless part, is, frankly, inane. Its a bout as useful as me telling TTi "Evolution are going to attack you." VERY useful that. The key information IS the timing, your example, Calladen is not a good one at all, indeed it is terrible. The only reason I would want a spy to report is to tell me the time and place, if he just told me "TTi are miffed with BBBB" i'd probably pod him myself then and there. Press Liason Big-Bang Burger Bar - Neocom Site
Fortoye Drak Caldari Doomheim	Posted - 2003.09.06 02:51:00 - [50] Quote: If a spy sees something on a forum like "ABC corp will attack DEF corp tonight at midnight GMT" that is certainly ingame info. But posting that information publically on another medium is not proper. He can tell it like a source to the president of DEF "Hey, I have reliable information that ABC is going to attack you". But to cut and paste that on the public eve forum for all to see isn't proper in my view. The rest was quite sensibly but this doesnt make sense, other than to back-cover something that TTi has allready objected to on that very basis. ABC corp is either attacking at midnight or it isnt - the wording in the context is irrelvant. To suggest somebody only gives part of the information , and in this case the msot useless part, is, frankly, inane. Its a bout as useful as me telling TTi "Evolution are going to attack you." VERY useful that. The key information IS the timing, your example, Calladen is not a good one at all, indeed it is terrible. The only reason I would want a spy to report is to tell me the time and place, if he just told me "TTi are miffed with BBBB" i'd probably pod him myself then and there. Press Liason Big-Bang Burger Bar - Neocom Site
Calladen Nimitz	Posted - 2003.09.06 03:35:00 - [51] Fortye, Perhaps I didnt word it properly (in fact I'm confused after rereading it - blame the morphine). What I mean is informing someone (like a spy would) of an upcoming attack, even providing an exact verbatem text of the attack plan is ok in my book. Posting cut and paste exact material from one forum onto a public forum (like this one) isnt ok in my book. A spy should have a specific purpose (like infiltrate a company to inform his real CEO of enemy plans). To do that is fine (even cut and paste stuff). But posting it publically is where I'd draw the line as the spy doesnt work for "everyone" in the public. Calladen
Calladen Nimitz Caldari Sovereign Enterprises	Posted - 2003.09.06 03:35:00 - [52] Fortye, Perhaps I didnt word it properly (in fact I'm confused after rereading it - blame the morphine). What I mean is informing someone (like a spy would) of an upcoming attack, even providing an exact verbatem text of the attack plan is ok in my book. Posting cut and paste exact material from one forum onto a public forum (like this one) isnt ok in my book. A spy should have a specific purpose (like infiltrate a company to inform his real CEO of enemy plans). To do that is fine (even cut and paste stuff). But posting it publically is where I'd draw the line as the spy doesnt work for "everyone" in the public. Calladen SOVEREIGN ENTERPRISES WEBPAGE AND FORUMS
Revolution	Posted - 2003.09.06 04:41:00 - [53] Edited by: Revolution on 06/09/2003 04:41:42 I think if you let a spy into your midst and he gets access to your secure forums, it is your responsibiltiy to make sure that no private (ie rl info) is accesable to them or anyone else who has access(I mean wtf, you meet people over the internet for 2 weeks then let them know all your personal details?? yeah right you do...) By putting the private info on your forums, all you are doing is setting up an OOG insurance policy, as people will be hesitant to spy due to fear of legal action, and any caught will be sued. BTW I think this tactic is known as "entrapment"
Revolution Amarr Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2003.09.06 04:41:00 - [54] Edited by: Revolution on 06/09/2003 04:41:42 I think if you let a spy into your midst and he gets access to your secure forums, it is your responsibiltiy to make sure that no private (ie rl info) is accesable to them or anyone else who has access(I mean wtf, you meet people over the internet for 2 weeks then let them know all your personal details?? yeah right you do...) By putting the private info on your forums, all you are doing is setting up an OOG insurance policy, as people will be hesitant to spy due to fear of legal action, and any caught will be sued. BTW I think this tactic is known as "entrapment"
Danton Marcellus	Posted - 2003.09.06 12:08:00 - [55] Lawsuits? I find this to be funny, first of all entrapment isn't considered legal in most civilized countries, 2nd the server is UK based and is not under the jurisdiction of US law and neither am I, so bring it, sue me and the courts over here will laugh you out. Dunno about it if you drop the T-word though. Convert Stations
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2003.09.06 12:08:00 - [56] Lawsuits? I find this to be funny, first of all entrapment isn't considered legal in most civilized countries, 2nd the server is UK based and is not under the jurisdiction of US law and neither am I, so bring it, sue me and the courts over here will laugh you out. Dunno about it if you drop the T-word though. Also Known As
Liscia Thierese	Posted - 2003.09.06 12:32:00 - [57] Quote: "Because someone found out who he was in real life and he received real life threats against his family." Just in case it's not clear, he was receiving these real life threats on his real life phone, addressing him under his in game name. This should have been posted immediately to the official EVE forum so that EVERYONE could voice their disgust. Such behaviour has happened in other games and there is no way to legislate for other people's idiocy and inadequacy. Such an act crosses from ingame to RL and as a consequence should be treated in RL fashion i.e. the appropriate authorities involved - police to TelCo to trace the number. At this point, membership of 'The Gang' will need to conduct a thorough examination of: 1. How RL information could have been gathered? 2. Who would have access? 3. Investigate every character who could possibly have access to sensitive information i.e. a phone-number. My guess is that a phone number is not common knowledge unless posted on the 'net. Even in a private forum, there should be a record of every member and it is a case of rattling as many cages to make life extremely difficult for this abuser. This behaviour is totally unacceptable.
Liscia Thierese Amarr Raiders of the Inter-Steller Periphery	Posted - 2003.09.06 12:32:00 - [58] Quote: "Because someone found out who he was in real life and he received real life threats against his family." Just in case it's not clear, he was receiving these real life threats on his real life phone, addressing him under his in game name. This should have been posted immediately to the official EVE forum so that EVERYONE could voice their disgust. Such behaviour has happened in other games and there is no way to legislate for other people's idiocy and inadequacy. Such an act crosses from ingame to RL and as a consequence should be treated in RL fashion i.e. the appropriate authorities involved - police to TelCo to trace the number. At this point, membership of 'The Gang' will need to conduct a thorough examination of: 1. How RL information could have been gathered? 2. Who would have access? 3. Investigate every character who could possibly have access to sensitive information i.e. a phone-number. My guess is that a phone number is not common knowledge unless posted on the 'net. Even in a private forum, there should be a record of every member and it is a case of rattling as many cages to make life extremely difficult for this abuser. This behaviour is totally unacceptable.
Fortoye Drak	Posted - 2003.09.06 12:49:00 - [59] Quote: Fortye, Perhaps I didnt word it properly (in fact I'm confused after rereading it - blame the morphine). What I mean is informing someone (like a spy would) of an upcoming attack, even providing an exact verbatem text of the attack plan is ok in my book. Posting cut and paste exact material from one forum onto a public forum (like this one) isnt ok in my book. A spy should have a specific purpose (like infiltrate a company to inform his real CEO of enemy plans). To do that is fine (even cut and paste stuff). But posting it publically is where I'd draw the line as the spy doesnt work for "everyone" in the public. Calladen riiiiight, ok makes more sense... in other words what the spy is doing is fine in telling his "Masters" but publically broadcasting it to all and sundry is just "sticking the knife in" to no game ends... yup I'd agree with that on principle. However, what about spies for news services? Everything they do is for "public consumption". Press Liason Big-Bang Burger Bar - Neocom Site
Fortoye Drak Caldari Doomheim	Posted - 2003.09.06 12:49:00 - [60] Quote: Fortye, Perhaps I didnt word it properly (in fact I'm confused after rereading it - blame the morphine). What I mean is informing someone (like a spy would) of an upcoming attack, even providing an exact verbatem text of the attack plan is ok in my book. Posting cut and paste exact material from one forum onto a public forum (like this one) isnt ok in my book. A spy should have a specific purpose (like infiltrate a company to inform his real CEO of enemy plans). To do that is fine (even cut and paste stuff). But posting it publically is where I'd draw the line as the spy doesnt work for "everyone" in the public. Calladen riiiiight, ok makes more sense... in other words what the spy is doing is fine in telling his "Masters" but publically broadcasting it to all and sundry is just "sticking the knife in" to no game ends... yup I'd agree with that on principle. However, what about spies for news services? Everything they do is for "public consumption". Press Liason Big-Bang Burger Bar - Neocom Site

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