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 Fortoye Drak    |
Posted - 2003.09.04 15:12:00 -
[1] BBBB would like to point out that the use of spies and spy-networks (infiltrators and sleepers)is not only an allowed part of EVE it is encouraged by CCP and always has been. As such we would like all Corporations to remember that anything their members say or do in-game is "fair game". If your membership babbles like fools, then its tough luck if you then discover that information widely spread and easily known. You have no reddress in seeking the removal of such information or stopping its useage via complaints to GMs/Polaris/CCP.... it is part and parcel of the game and it is "fair game". If you wish to protect your "secrets" then do so in-game and use applicable counter-espionage tactics. Try to prevent your unhappy members from gossiping like a fish woman by either keeping them happy or not telling them about your next grand offensive in intimate details then wondering why they sold the story for 50 ISK. In the meantime anybody who can't face up to the fact that having a disillusioned membership will mean you leak secrets like a sieve, should leave EVE now before they have a seizure. What your members tell us in-game is up for grabs. Learn to live with this fact. Disclaimer: This notice is intended for all corporations and is in no way directed specifically at "Whaaa Whaaa Ragnar" or any other megalomaniacal eejit at the head of a crumbling and dejected Corporation. It is for those of us who wish to play the game, not for the few who wish to play GOD outside of it. Press Liason Big-Bang Burger Bar - Neocom Site |
 Fortoye Drak Caldari Doomheim |
Posted - 2003.09.04 15:12:00 -
[2] BBBB would like to point out that the use of spies and spy-networks (infiltrators and sleepers)is not only an allowed part of EVE it is encouraged by CCP and always has been. As such we would like all Corporations to remember that anything their members say or do in-game is "fair game". If your membership babbles like fools, then its tough luck if you then discover that information widely spread and easily known. You have no reddress in seeking the removal of such information or stopping its useage via complaints to GMs/Polaris/CCP.... it is part and parcel of the game and it is "fair game". If you wish to protect your "secrets" then do so in-game and use applicable counter-espionage tactics. Try to prevent your unhappy members from gossiping like a fish woman by either keeping them happy or not telling them about your next grand offensive in intimate details then wondering why they sold the story for 50 ISK. In the meantime anybody who can't face up to the fact that having a disillusioned membership will mean you leak secrets like a sieve, should leave EVE now before they have a seizure. What your members tell us in-game is up for grabs. Learn to live with this fact. Disclaimer: This notice is intended for all corporations and is in no way directed specifically at "Whaaa Whaaa Ragnar" or any other megalomaniacal eejit at the head of a crumbling and dejected Corporation. It is for those of us who wish to play the game, not for the few who wish to play GOD outside of it. Press Liason Big-Bang Burger Bar - Neocom Site |
 Ulstan |
Posted - 2003.09.04 15:37:00 -
[3] And I hear they can rob your hangar blind as well and then leave the corp! |
 Ulstan Caldari Caldari Provisions |
Posted - 2003.09.04 15:37:00 -
[4] And I hear they can rob your hangar blind as well and then leave the corp! |
 Fortoye Drak |
Posted - 2003.09.04 15:41:00 -
[5]
This indeed has happened on many an occaision. Press Liason Big-Bang Burger Bar - Neocom Site |
Fortoye Drak Caldari Doomheim |
Posted - 2003.09.04 15:41:00 -
[6]
This indeed has happened on many an occaision. Press Liason Big-Bang Burger Bar - Neocom Site |
 Sedsiss |
Posted - 2003.09.04 17:42:00 -
[7] No spies in Evol. Helps that we don't recruit:P |
 Sedsiss Amarr Viziam |
Posted - 2003.09.04 17:42:00 -
[8] No spies in Evol. Helps that we don't recruit:P |
Zaphod Robotnik |
Posted - 2003.09.04 17:53:00 -
[9] Apparently the British Space Corporation has a spy. We like him - he's kind of a corp mascot. We feed him (information) and he takes it back to his master for a princely sum, no doubt. Pity he's inept. -- Zaphod "Zaprobo" Robotnik President, Royal Communication Department http://eve.britishspacecorps.co.uk/http://eve.britishspacecorps |
 Zaphod Robotnik Imperial Shipment |
Posted - 2003.09.04 17:53:00 -
[10] Apparently the British Space Corporation has a spy. We like him - he's kind of a corp mascot. We feed him (information) and he takes it back to his master for a princely sum, no doubt. Pity he's inept. -- Zaphod "Zaprobo" Robotnik Former President, Royal Communication Department http://eve.britishspacecorps.co.uk/ |
Shock |
Posted - 2003.09.04 19:48:00 -
[11] Usually disclaimers tend to be boring... --- soonÖ |
 Shock Caldari |
Posted - 2003.09.04 19:48:00 -
[12] Usually disclaimers tend to be boring... --- soonÖ |
Danton Marcellus |
Posted - 2003.09.04 20:15:00 -
[13] The CCPs inability to deal with the abuse of trust ingame and their encouraging of betrayals will as we've already seen example of spill over in real life intrusions and very illegal acts being performed. I demand a 10 second inability to trace my IP! Convert Stations |
 Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings |
Posted - 2003.09.04 20:15:00 -
[14] The CCPs inability to deal with the abuse of trust ingame and their encouraging of betrayals will as we've already seen example of spill over in real life intrusions and very illegal acts being performed. I demand a 10 second inability to trace my IP! Also Known As |
 Drutort |
Posted - 2003.09.04 20:39:00 -
[15]
ahaha thats funny  eh the only way to stop vs RL life is to know a bit about computers and how to make sure your system doesnt have open doors hehe... thats as about as secure as you can get... it does you no good knowing my ip when im beind a fire and router LOL...  and when person is keeping tabs on all the patchs and exploits/holes in OS or any other software... not too hard there are people who get payed to inform others before hand of such posibilities...  support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog |
 Drutort Caldari |
Posted - 2003.09.04 20:39:00 -
[16]
ahaha thats funny eh the only way to stop vs RL life is to know a bit about computers and how to make sure your system doesnt have open doors hehe... thats as about as secure as you can get... it does you no good knowing my ip when im beind a fire and router LOL... and when person is keeping tabs on all the patchs and exploits/holes in OS or any other software... not too hard there are people who get payed to inform others before hand of such posibilities... |
Kuole Zhilarsk |
Posted - 2003.09.04 22:10:00 -
[17]
This is hardly an area for CCP to deal with. Espionage is going to happen in a game like this. Infiltrating a corporation with the sole purpose of gaining information to pass along is valid. Legality shouldn't enter it unless an actual illegal act is used to gain information (such as hacking and such.) I fail to see why people hold CCP responsibile for the 'harmless' espionage acts - the actual ingame roleplayed elements where people join a corporation with the sole intent of passing on information to their masters. Indeed, it could be frowned upon as being unethical, but intelligence is necessary and having spies is just one means to reach an end. I personally fail to see the problem of spies and thus expect them in this game. What I also expect, but do not condone is the use of hacking to gain access to information. I can sympathize with people who are hacked for information, but what I do not understand is how legality is questioned for the simple ingame rp actions. It's bizarre to me. I came from Planetarion to this game and within that spies were a common thing. Every alliance had its own intel network and getting people into an alliance to do your bidding was common place. The alliance I worked for and helped command had the policy of assuming their was always a spy at member level. Planetarion alliances thus had to create counter measures to use against spies - this could be active internal sorting, or just extremely strict recruitment (if any.) Never once did the legality of it come into question because it was just a game. The only legal issue as I stated earlier was for hacking, DOS attacks and the like. I heard of an example within Eve where TTI threatened legal action upon parts of their forums being leaked. To be fair, I will not judge them based upon this second hand info. If the leak was due to the forums being hacked then fair enough, but if it was one of their own members leaking information then legality should not have been brought into it. Sour grapes in my opinion. In summary, I agree with the original poster. For all the hatred and scorn to spies and espionage, its a perfectly valid tactic to use as long as it is kept to legal methods. |
 Kuole Zhilarsk Caldari The Legion. |
Posted - 2003.09.04 22:10:00 -
[18]
This is hardly an area for CCP to deal with. Espionage is going to happen in a game like this. Infiltrating a corporation with the sole purpose of gaining information to pass along is valid. Legality shouldn't enter it unless an actual illegal act is used to gain information (such as hacking and such.) I fail to see why people hold CCP responsibile for the 'harmless' espionage acts - the actual ingame roleplayed elements where people join a corporation with the sole intent of passing on information to their masters. Indeed, it could be frowned upon as being unethical, but intelligence is necessary and having spies is just one means to reach an end. I personally fail to see the problem of spies and thus expect them in this game. What I also expect, but do not condone is the use of hacking to gain access to information. I can sympathize with people who are hacked for information, but what I do not understand is how legality is questioned for the simple ingame rp actions. It's bizarre to me. I came from Planetarion to this game and within that spies were a common thing. Every alliance had its own intel network and getting people into an alliance to do your bidding was common place. The alliance I worked for and helped command had the policy of assuming their was always a spy at member level. Planetarion alliances thus had to create counter measures to use against spies - this could be active internal sorting, or just extremely strict recruitment (if any.) Never once did the legality of it come into question because it was just a game. The only legal issue as I stated earlier was for hacking, DOS attacks and the like. I heard of an example within Eve where TTI threatened legal action upon parts of their forums being leaked. To be fair, I will not judge them based upon this second hand info. If the leak was due to the forums being hacked then fair enough, but if it was one of their own members leaking information then legality should not have been brought into it. Sour grapes in my opinion. In summary, I agree with the original poster. For all the hatred and scorn to spies and espionage, its a perfectly valid tactic to use as long as it is kept to legal methods. |
Joshua Calvert |
Posted - 2003.09.04 22:12:00 -
[19] You don't actually have to be a member of a corp. to view their corp. channel, according to rumour. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
 Joshua Calvert Caldari Celestial Horizon Corp. |
Posted - 2003.09.04 22:12:00 -
[20] You don't actually have to be a member of a corp. to view their corp. channel, according to rumour. |
 Tristan |
Posted - 2003.09.04 22:16:00 -
[21] Stavr0s is really my alt. |
 Tristan Minmatar Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance |
Posted - 2003.09.04 22:16:00 -
[22] Stavr0s is really my alt. ------------------------------------------------------------ Offensive signature text removed. Please consult the Forum Rules. Email us for questions [email protected] -Eldo |
 Fortoye Drak |
Posted - 2003.09.04 22:52:00 -
[23]
The "hurdle" for some is this: There are those who complain immediately under the assumption that only (a) could have happened. These people never consider (b) at all and act immediately and with vehemence with no proof whatsoever that (a) occured. Despite full knowledge, in some cases, that they have at least one active spy in their midst they will act as though it is an "illegal" hack or a breach of copyright...and make official complaint (to whoever.. website owner, internet radio station, ccp , whatever). And that is the fundamental problem. Its easy for them to complain but the "innocent" spy master is forced into revealing his "Moles" to a "system" riddled with conflicts of interest via "people in authority" with dual purpose and a bad track record on confidentiality. The tables should be turned - it should be down to the complainants to be forced into producing solid evidence of any "Misdeed" before anybody is questioned over or required to explain how they obtained in-game information. Have you any idea how much people gossip in this game? Yet some CEOs will simply assume that it could never be one of their emmbers who spilled the beans... even the ones with "I AM A SPY" tatooed on their foreheads.  Press Liason Big-Bang Burger Bar - Neocom Site |
Fortoye Drak Caldari Doomheim |
Posted - 2003.09.04 22:52:00 -
[24]
The "hurdle" for some is this: There are those who complain immediately under the assumption that only (a) could have happened. These people never consider (b) at all and act immediately and with vehemence with no proof whatsoever that (a) occured. Despite full knowledge, in some cases, that they have at least one active spy in their midst they will act as though it is an "illegal" hack or a breach of copyright...and make official complaint (to whoever.. website owner, internet radio station, ccp , whatever). And that is the fundamental problem. Its easy for them to complain but the "innocent" spy master is forced into revealing his "Moles" to a "system" riddled with conflicts of interest via "people in authority" with dual purpose and a bad track record on confidentiality. The tables should be turned - it should be down to the complainants to be forced into producing solid evidence of any "Misdeed" before anybody is questioned over or required to explain how they obtained in-game information. Have you any idea how much people gossip in this game? Yet some CEOs will simply assume that it could never be one of their emmbers who spilled the beans... even the ones with "I AM A SPY" tatooed on their foreheads. Press Liason Big-Bang Burger Bar - Neocom Site |
Danton Marcellus |
Posted - 2003.09.04 22:55:00 -
[25] All I'm saying is that CCP should allow for sensible corporations to be able to lock down sections of theirs to be opened only by two authorized members at the same time and/or being able to glue items to the hangars using timelocks. Not making spying impossible just a little less of a cakewalk and less devastating to the hard working corporation members not at fault for letting security slip. About the corporate channels tap that's right, one of our members could monitor the RUS channel for the whole day about a week ago. Convert Stations |
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings |
Posted - 2003.09.04 22:55:00 -
[26] All I'm saying is that CCP should allow for sensible corporations to be able to lock down sections of theirs to be opened only by two authorized members at the same time and/or being able to glue items to the hangars using timelocks. Not making spying impossible just a little less of a cakewalk and less devastating to the hard working corporation members not at fault for letting security slip. About the corporate channels tap that's right, one of our members could monitor the RUS channel for the whole day about a week ago. Also Known As |
Cormyat Astara |
Posted - 2003.09.05 01:39:00 -
[27] I now am enjoying the blissful freedom of being a corporate employee, but when I was a director in BladeCorp, I used to shake my head whenever another director was promoted in a fashion I considered premature. I knew how easy it would have been for me to totally destroy the corporation and all of its assets if I was so inclined. So I agree that there should be some checks-and-balances in place to provide for at least a modicum of security. If I ran a corporation now, I don't know that I would ever allow any more than 10-15% of the company's total cash assets to sit in the corporate wallet. I would disperse the remainder of the money among various alts and invest in BPs and other items a little more aggressively than I otherwise might, just to protect the corporation's assets from theft. I think the corp wallet should be divided into several accounts with differing levels of security, just like hangars. Optimally, there could be a general petty cash wallet, and then a seperate wallet for each of the corporation's divisions, and then another wallet where all donations, taxes, or other deposits would go. The idea of having max-security hangars/wallets is an excellent one. I hadn't thought of that one, but it would help prevent that lone disgruntled player from ripping you off if you could place extremely rare assets into a "vault" that must be accessed by two directors simultaneously or it cannot be accessed at all. |
 Cormyat Astara Caldari Caldari Provisions |
Posted - 2003.09.05 01:39:00 -
[28] I now am enjoying the blissful freedom of being a corporate employee, but when I was a director in BladeCorp, I used to shake my head whenever another director was promoted in a fashion I considered premature. I knew how easy it would have been for me to totally destroy the corporation and all of its assets if I was so inclined. So I agree that there should be some checks-and-balances in place to provide for at least a modicum of security. If I ran a corporation now, I don't know that I would ever allow any more than 10-15% of the company's total cash assets to sit in the corporate wallet. I would disperse the remainder of the money among various alts and invest in BPs and other items a little more aggressively than I otherwise might, just to protect the corporation's assets from theft. I think the corp wallet should be divided into several accounts with differing levels of security, just like hangars. Optimally, there could be a general petty cash wallet, and then a seperate wallet for each of the corporation's divisions, and then another wallet where all donations, taxes, or other deposits would go. The idea of having max-security hangars/wallets is an excellent one. I hadn't thought of that one, but it would help prevent that lone disgruntled player from ripping you off if you could place extremely rare assets into a "vault" that must be accessed by two directors simultaneously or it cannot be accessed at all. |
 Ragnar |
Posted - 2003.09.05 04:41:00 -
[29] I have no problem with in-game spying. Joining other corps in game is part of the game and it's all good... I do have a problem with invasion of private forums. That is not in game and not cool. Yes it is "about the game", but not "in the game". Big difference... The game server is CCP's and the forum server is my private proparty. So, spy in game all you want, it is cool. Of course I know TTI has spies, and if we find them they are dead (in game). I really wish CCP would implement a feature they talked about in beta that allows CEOs to see all alternate characters of their employees. However, if they do that I belive spying should still be allowed with a "Spying skill", which if high enough would let them avoid detection by the CEO or coproate security's skill level. I dunno... needs some design work but you know what I zm getting at. - Ragnar Danneskj÷ld Taggart Transdimensional, Inc. http://www.taggarttransdimensional.com |
 Ragnar Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc. |
Posted - 2003.09.05 04:41:00 -
[30] I have no problem with in-game spying. Joining other corps in game is part of the game and it's all good... I do have a problem with invasion of private forums. That is not in game and not cool. Yes it is "about the game", but not "in the game". Big difference... The game server is CCP's and the forum server is my private proparty. So, spy in game all you want, it is cool. Of course I know TTI has spies, and if we find them they are dead (in game). I really wish CCP would implement a feature they talked about in beta that allows CEOs to see all alternate characters of their employees. However, if they do that I belive spying should still be allowed with a "Spying skill", which if high enough would let them avoid detection by the CEO or coproate security's skill level. I dunno... needs some design work but you know what I zm getting at. - Ragnar Danneskj÷ld Taggart Transdimensional, Inc. http://www.taggarttransdimensional.com |
 Dukath |
Posted - 2003.09.05 08:02:00 -
[31] If you as CEO give the spy access to your 'private' forums then there IS NO INVASION. YOU and only YOU are responsible for giving access to those forums and if that said spy leaks information to other then its your own fault. If however the info has been obtained by hacking then of course you can bring in all the lagality you want. But then the burden of proof is on your side. Where are all the logs that show the hacking attempt? Simply hiding behind the fact that 'this is my personal webpage' is lame. |
 Dukath Evolution Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2003.09.05 08:02:00 -
[32] If you as CEO give the spy access to your 'private' forums then there IS NO INVASION. YOU and only YOU are responsible for giving access to those forums and if that said spy leaks information to other then its your own fault. If however the info has been obtained by hacking then of course you can bring in all the lagality you want. But then the burden of proof is on your side. Where are all the logs that show the hacking attempt? Simply hiding behind the fact that 'this is my personal webpage' is lame. |
 edudtset |
Posted - 2003.09.05 08:14:00 -
[33] bringing rl crap to other gamers shows the kind of scum tti are worse then an ingame exploiter |
 edudtset |
Posted - 2003.09.05 08:14:00 -
[34] bringing rl crap to other gamers shows the kind of scum tti are worse then an ingame exploiter |
Danton Marcellus |
Posted - 2003.09.05 12:22:00 -
[35] So by default allowing players to join your corporation at all should mean you're to be screwed with without being able to take any countermeassures? Man I almost feel like putting in an analogy here to make you look real stupid. Convert Stations |
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings |
Posted - 2003.09.05 12:22:00 -
[36] So by default allowing players to join your corporation at all should mean you're to be screwed with without being able to take any countermeassures? Man I almost feel like putting in an analogy here to make you look real stupid. Also Known As |
Kuole Zhilarsk |
Posted - 2003.09.05 15:06:00 -
[37]
Ah, this is the part we disagree on then. The thing is, any important news or information is not going to be garnered through Eve ingame. It would be on IRC or through boards. The only way to pass on this information is to get into them. What I approve of is the actual infiltration of the corporation. What I do not approve of is the hacking aspect. When you accept a member and give them access to the forums, you must be aware that they may be working for another person. It is the corporations responsibility to defeat such espionage by bringing in security checks and security levels. What a corporation should not have to do is build in lots of virus protection, firewalls, routers, backup servers and the like to protect against harmful spy techniques that are also illegal. End of the day whilst you may consider it an invasion of your private forums, you need allow them access in the first place (this is for the people you accept into your corp). To the last sentence in that, too right. Kill spies on sight ingame and kick them from the corporation - or use them to your benefit.
I disagree at this stage of the game. Such an option would essentially kill espionage except for the people who can afford to buy another copy of the game with cd-key to use as a spy account. Thats just one exploitation to get around it, and I'm sure others can be thought of. Also, I think CCP have far greater things to worry about - things that Corporations cant solve by themselves. Corps just need to be vigilent to spies and to act in accordance to the fact that espionage is rife. In the future, making espionage an actual skill/career in the game may be interesting. I respect your viewpoint however, as mine is jaded from my time in Planetarion. |
Kuole Zhilarsk Caldari The Legion. |
Posted - 2003.09.05 15:06:00 -
[38]
Ah, this is the part we disagree on then. The thing is, any important news or information is not going to be garnered through Eve ingame. It would be on IRC or through boards. The only way to pass on this information is to get into them. What I approve of is the actual infiltration of the corporation. What I do not approve of is the hacking aspect. When you accept a member and give them access to the forums, you must be aware that they may be working for another person. It is the corporations responsibility to defeat such espionage by bringing in security checks and security levels. What a corporation should not have to do is build in lots of virus protection, firewalls, routers, backup servers and the like to protect against harmful spy techniques that are also illegal. End of the day whilst you may consider it an invasion of your private forums, you need allow them access in the first place (this is for the people you accept into your corp). To the last sentence in that, too right. Kill spies on sight ingame and kick them from the corporation - or use them to your benefit.
I disagree at this stage of the game. Such an option would essentially kill espionage except for the people who can afford to buy another copy of the game with cd-key to use as a spy account. Thats just one exploitation to get around it, and I'm sure others can be thought of. Also, I think CCP have far greater things to worry about - things that Corporations cant solve by themselves. Corps just need to be vigilent to spies and to act in accordance to the fact that espionage is rife. In the future, making espionage an actual skill/career in the game may be interesting. I respect your viewpoint however, as mine is jaded from my time in Planetarion. |
 Athule Snanm |
Posted - 2003.09.05 15:21:00 -
[39] Spying using an alt - rubbish, I hate it, in-game or on people's boards. Impossible to regulate though so it's pointless complaining. In reality, although it's distasteful, so long as these spies on report on IC discussion then you just have to live with it. Spying using your proper character or a paid other person is fine IMHO. I'm afraid that in that case that if you have an in-character forum then in-character posts there are probably fair game if the spy is a person's primary. Repeating OOC posts on the other hand, whether you're a spy or not isn't on. In that case you're not spying you're just scum, pure and simple. The final case would be someone hacking into a forum, IRC or whatever - this is just plain illegal. Banning and possible police action should be the ultimate sanction if proved. Although none of my business, it would be interesting to know what happened to Ctaesis over this sort of activity...apart from being deemed 'quite funny' by another TTi member? _______________________________ Doomheim - EVE's only hygiene! |
 Athule Snanm Amarr Blue Apple Industries |
Posted - 2003.09.05 15:21:00 -
[40] Spying using an alt - rubbish, I hate it, in-game or on people's boards. Impossible to regulate though so it's pointless complaining. In reality, although it's distasteful, so long as these spies on report on IC discussion then you just have to live with it. Spying using your proper character or a paid other person is fine IMHO. I'm afraid that in that case that if you have an in-character forum then in-character posts there are probably fair game if the spy is a person's primary. Repeating OOC posts on the other hand, whether you're a spy or not isn't on. In that case you're not spying you're just scum, pure and simple. The final case would be someone hacking into a forum, IRC or whatever - this is just plain illegal. Banning and possible police action should be the ultimate sanction if proved. Although none of my business, it would be interesting to know what happened to Ctaesis over this sort of activity...apart from being deemed 'quite funny' by another TTi member? _______________________________ Doomheim - EVE's only hygiene! |
Fortoye Drak |
Posted - 2003.09.05 15:51:00 -
[41]
Unfortunately you fail to address the key point. I am a spy master. I deal with characters that are solidly in-game on a regular basis. They give me information and invariably most do so in a RP fashion. Now one of my spies tells me your new pirate alliance is to be called "The North Star Alliance". You can throw as many fits as you like about invasion of privacy and how information from a forum cant be used because, frankly, its not relevant. (s)He told me in game. That's it end of matter. Your problems with leaks is your problem , not ours. The fact that that information may be on your forums is entirely irrelevant. You can not and do not control the right of people to pass on information Ragnar. Its irrespective of any half-arsed disclaimers on your website and it is not a breach of copyright of privacy laws anywhere in the western world. Simple - learn to live with it and stop believing you "own" peoples right to think and that you can restrict free speech in game. Finally it is NOT, nor ever will be, "invasion" - you gave these people access yourself. So stop making out every leak is some hacker-story worthy of an FBI investigation or RL corporate espionage. There is no need for any of the "features" you ask for. Anybody with half a clue about counter-espionage can catch spies. Maybe use your wealth and experience to get someone to fix your leaks rather than trying to stop the leaks by attacking those who publish them (because we know how that isnt working). If you'd done this from the start (and got rid of dead characters and sleeps from tti) you wouldn't have so many bloody leaks in the first place. This mess is of your own making through lax internal security, poor procedures and wanting high rosters numbers over good security. Pay me 500 Million ISK and I guarentee you I can clear TTi of spies within 4 weeks. Press Liason Big-Bang Burger Bar - Neocom Site |
Fortoye Drak Caldari Doomheim |
Posted - 2003.09.05 15:51:00 -
[42]
Unfortunately you fail to address the key point. I am a spy master. I deal with characters that are solidly in-game on a regular basis. They give me information and invariably most do so in a RP fashion. Now one of my spies tells me your new pirate alliance is to be called "The North Star Alliance". You can throw as many fits as you like about invasion of privacy and how information from a forum cant be used because, frankly, its not relevant. (s)He told me in game. That's it end of matter. Your problems with leaks is your problem , not ours. The fact that that information may be on your forums is entirely irrelevant. You can not and do not control the right of people to pass on information Ragnar. Its irrespective of any half-arsed disclaimers on your website and it is not a breach of copyright of privacy laws anywhere in the western world. Simple - learn to live with it and stop believing you "own" peoples right to think and that you can restrict free speech in game. Finally it is NOT, nor ever will be, "invasion" - you gave these people access yourself. So stop making out every leak is some hacker-story worthy of an FBI investigation or RL corporate espionage. There is no need for any of the "features" you ask for. Anybody with half a clue about counter-espionage can catch spies. Maybe use your wealth and experience to get someone to fix your leaks rather than trying to stop the leaks by attacking those who publish them (because we know how that isnt working). If you'd done this from the start (and got rid of dead characters and sleeps from tti) you wouldn't have so many bloody leaks in the first place. This mess is of your own making through lax internal security, poor procedures and wanting high rosters numbers over good security. Pay me 500 Million ISK and I guarentee you I can clear TTi of spies within 4 weeks. Press Liason Big-Bang Burger Bar - Neocom Site |
Calladen Nimitz |
Posted - 2003.09.05 17:59:00 -
[43] I also believe spying in game is acceptable and allowed but I have a problem with "spies" having access to private website information or handing it out. Not so much because its "private" but for another reason. Has anyone seen the leader of "The Gang" in the last couple of months? No. Do you know why? Because someone found out who he was in real life and he received real life threats against his family. Threats which included comments relating to ingame activities and information. When we're dealing with people (not all of us but some to be sure) who are immature and irresponsible its clear they can't be expected to behave in a civil manner. The fact that I've had to press the issue against the person sending TTI viruses and work toward his arrest in Sweeden is proof of that. Because so many corporations use their forums for personal information as well as "ingame" information (birth announcements, wedding pictures, vacation trips and reunions) I think it's clear there is alot of potential for abuse. My personal opinion is that ingame spying is ok. Spying thru the forums is also "OK" but posting forum information "word for word" for all to see is NOT OK. Mainly I believe a spy can and should infiltrate and pass on information.... HOWEVER.... doing so and posting it on another public forum isn't proper. Just my two cents on the subject but I think the Gang example (relayed to me by another Gang member who asked I not reveal his identity - it was an "alt" a few months ago) indicates why this is such a grey area. If a spy sees something on a forum like "ABC corp will attack DEF corp tonight at midnight GMT" that is certainly ingame info. But posting that information publically on another medium is not proper. He can tell it like a source to the president of DEF "Hey, I have reliable information that ABC is going to attack you". But to cut and paste that on the public eve forum for all to see isn't proper in my view. Calladen |
 Calladen Nimitz Caldari Sovereign Enterprises |
Posted - 2003.09.05 17:59:00 -
[44] I also believe spying in game is acceptable and allowed but I have a problem with "spies" having access to private website information or handing it out. Not so much because its "private" but for another reason. Has anyone seen the leader of "The Gang" in the last couple of months? No. Do you know why? Because someone found out who he was in real life and he received real life threats against his family. Threats which included comments relating to ingame activities and information. When we're dealing with people (not all of us but some to be sure) who are immature and irresponsible its clear they can't be expected to behave in a civil manner. The fact that I've had to press the issue against the person sending TTI viruses and work toward his arrest in Sweeden is proof of that. Because so many corporations use their forums for personal information as well as "ingame" information (birth announcements, wedding pictures, vacation trips and reunions) I think it's clear there is alot of potential for abuse. My personal opinion is that ingame spying is ok. Spying thru the forums is also "OK" but posting forum information "word for word" for all to see is NOT OK. Mainly I believe a spy can and should infiltrate and pass on information.... HOWEVER.... doing so and posting it on another public forum isn't proper. Just my two cents on the subject but I think the Gang example (relayed to me by another Gang member who asked I not reveal his identity - it was an "alt" a few months ago) indicates why this is such a grey area. If a spy sees something on a forum like "ABC corp will attack DEF corp tonight at midnight GMT" that is certainly ingame info. But posting that information publically on another medium is not proper. He can tell it like a source to the president of DEF "Hey, I have reliable information that ABC is going to attack you". But to cut and paste that on the public eve forum for all to see isn't proper in my view. Calladen SOVEREIGN ENTERPRISES WEBPAGE AND FORUMS |
 Femme Fatal |
Posted - 2003.09.05 18:03:00 -
[45] I dont think there is anything wrong with infiltrating another alliance to win ingame information (even if it is from their forum). The forums are just an extension of ingame communication methods, and therefore CEOs should be careful to whom they release what information on forums. Its totally different ofc when comes to releasing or passing on information regarding peoples family, location, or whatever no matter if obtained ingame or from forums. That kinda stuff doesnt belong in a game, and should be responded to accordingly. |
 Femme Fatal Going Limp |
Posted - 2003.09.05 18:03:00 -
[46] I dont think there is anything wrong with infiltrating another alliance to win ingame information (even if it is from their forum). The forums are just an extension of ingame communication methods, and therefore CEOs should be careful to whom they release what information on forums. Its totally different ofc when comes to releasing or passing on information regarding peoples family, location, or whatever no matter if obtained ingame or from forums. That kinda stuff doesnt belong in a game, and should be responded to accordingly. |
Ulstan |
Posted - 2003.09.05 18:04:00 -
[47] "Because someone found out who he was in real life and he received real life threats against his family." Just in case it's not clear, he was receiving these real life threats on his real life phone, addressing him under his in game name. |
Ulstan Caldari Caldari Provisions |
Posted - 2003.09.05 18:04:00 -
[48] "Because someone found out who he was in real life and he received real life threats against his family." Just in case it's not clear, he was receiving these real life threats on his real life phone, addressing him under his in game name. |
Fortoye Drak |
Posted - 2003.09.06 02:51:00 -
[49]
The rest was quite sensibly but this doesnt make sense, other than to back-cover something that TTi has allready objected to on that very basis. ABC corp is either attacking at midnight or it isnt - the wording in the context is irrelvant. To suggest somebody only gives part of the information , and in this case the msot useless part, is, frankly, inane. Its a bout as useful as me telling TTi "Evolution are going to attack you." VERY useful that.  The key information IS the timing, your example, Calladen is not a good one at all, indeed it is terrible. The only reason I would want a spy to report is to tell me the time and place, if he just told me "TTi are miffed with BBBB" i'd probably pod him myself then and there. Press Liason Big-Bang Burger Bar - Neocom Site |
Fortoye Drak Caldari Doomheim |
Posted - 2003.09.06 02:51:00 -
[50]
The rest was quite sensibly but this doesnt make sense, other than to back-cover something that TTi has allready objected to on that very basis. ABC corp is either attacking at midnight or it isnt - the wording in the context is irrelvant. To suggest somebody only gives part of the information , and in this case the msot useless part, is, frankly, inane. Its a bout as useful as me telling TTi "Evolution are going to attack you." VERY useful that. The key information IS the timing, your example, Calladen is not a good one at all, indeed it is terrible. The only reason I would want a spy to report is to tell me the time and place, if he just told me "TTi are miffed with BBBB" i'd probably pod him myself then and there. Press Liason Big-Bang Burger Bar - Neocom Site |
Calladen Nimitz |
Posted - 2003.09.06 03:35:00 -
[51] Fortye, Perhaps I didnt word it properly (in fact I'm confused after rereading it - blame the morphine). What I mean is informing someone (like a spy would) of an upcoming attack, even providing an exact verbatem text of the attack plan is ok in my book. Posting cut and paste exact material from one forum onto a public forum (like this one) isnt ok in my book. A spy should have a specific purpose (like infiltrate a company to inform his real CEO of enemy plans). To do that is fine (even cut and paste stuff). But posting it publically is where I'd draw the line as the spy doesnt work for "everyone" in the public. Calladen  |
Calladen Nimitz Caldari Sovereign Enterprises |
Posted - 2003.09.06 03:35:00 -
[52] Fortye, Perhaps I didnt word it properly (in fact I'm confused after rereading it - blame the morphine). What I mean is informing someone (like a spy would) of an upcoming attack, even providing an exact verbatem text of the attack plan is ok in my book. Posting cut and paste exact material from one forum onto a public forum (like this one) isnt ok in my book. A spy should have a specific purpose (like infiltrate a company to inform his real CEO of enemy plans). To do that is fine (even cut and paste stuff). But posting it publically is where I'd draw the line as the spy doesnt work for "everyone" in the public. Calladen SOVEREIGN ENTERPRISES WEBPAGE AND FORUMS |
Revolution |
Posted - 2003.09.06 04:41:00 -
[53] Edited by: Revolution on 06/09/2003 04:41:42 I think if you let a spy into your midst and he gets access to your secure forums, it is your responsibiltiy to make sure that no private (ie rl info) is accesable to them or anyone else who has access(I mean wtf, you meet people over the internet for 2 weeks then let them know all your personal details?? yeah right you do...) By putting the private info on your forums, all you are doing is setting up an OOG insurance policy, as people will be hesitant to spy due to fear of legal action, and any caught will be sued. BTW I think this tactic is known as "entrapment" |
 Revolution Amarr Evolution Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2003.09.06 04:41:00 -
[54] Edited by: Revolution on 06/09/2003 04:41:42 I think if you let a spy into your midst and he gets access to your secure forums, it is your responsibiltiy to make sure that no private (ie rl info) is accesable to them or anyone else who has access(I mean wtf, you meet people over the internet for 2 weeks then let them know all your personal details?? yeah right you do...) By putting the private info on your forums, all you are doing is setting up an OOG insurance policy, as people will be hesitant to spy due to fear of legal action, and any caught will be sued. BTW I think this tactic is known as "entrapment" |
Danton Marcellus |
Posted - 2003.09.06 12:08:00 -
[55] Lawsuits? I find this to be funny, first of all entrapment isn't considered legal in most civilized countries, 2nd the server is UK based and is not under the jurisdiction of US law and neither am I, so bring it, sue me and the courts over here will laugh you out. Dunno about it if you drop the T-word though. Convert Stations |
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings |
Posted - 2003.09.06 12:08:00 -
[56] Lawsuits? I find this to be funny, first of all entrapment isn't considered legal in most civilized countries, 2nd the server is UK based and is not under the jurisdiction of US law and neither am I, so bring it, sue me and the courts over here will laugh you out. Dunno about it if you drop the T-word though. Also Known As |
Liscia Thierese |
Posted - 2003.09.06 12:32:00 -
[57]
This should have been posted immediately to the official EVE forum so that EVERYONE could voice their disgust. Such behaviour has happened in other games and there is no way to legislate for other people's idiocy and inadequacy. Such an act crosses from ingame to RL and as a consequence should be treated in RL fashion i.e. the appropriate authorities involved - police to TelCo to trace the number. At this point, membership of 'The Gang' will need to conduct a thorough examination of: 1. How RL information could have been gathered? 2. Who would have access? 3. Investigate every character who could possibly have access to sensitive information i.e. a phone-number. My guess is that a phone number is not common knowledge unless posted on the 'net. Even in a private forum, there should be a record of every member and it is a case of rattling as many cages to make life extremely difficult for this abuser. This behaviour is totally unacceptable. |
 Liscia Thierese Amarr Raiders of the Inter-Steller Periphery |
Posted - 2003.09.06 12:32:00 -
[58]
This should have been posted immediately to the official EVE forum so that EVERYONE could voice their disgust. Such behaviour has happened in other games and there is no way to legislate for other people's idiocy and inadequacy. Such an act crosses from ingame to RL and as a consequence should be treated in RL fashion i.e. the appropriate authorities involved - police to TelCo to trace the number. At this point, membership of 'The Gang' will need to conduct a thorough examination of: 1. How RL information could have been gathered? 2. Who would have access? 3. Investigate every character who could possibly have access to sensitive information i.e. a phone-number. My guess is that a phone number is not common knowledge unless posted on the 'net. Even in a private forum, there should be a record of every member and it is a case of rattling as many cages to make life extremely difficult for this abuser. This behaviour is totally unacceptable. |
Fortoye Drak |
Posted - 2003.09.06 12:49:00 -
[59]
riiiiight, ok makes more sense... in other words what the spy is doing is fine in telling his "Masters" but publically broadcasting it to all and sundry is just "sticking the knife in" to no game ends... yup I'd agree with that on principle. However, what about spies for news services? Everything they do is for "public consumption". Press Liason Big-Bang Burger Bar - Neocom Site |
Fortoye Drak Caldari Doomheim |
Posted - 2003.09.06 12:49:00 -
[60]
riiiiight, ok makes more sense... in other words what the spy is doing is fine in telling his "Masters" but publically broadcasting it to all and sundry is just "sticking the knife in" to no game ends... yup I'd agree with that on principle. However, what about spies for news services? Everything they do is for "public consumption". Press Liason Big-Bang Burger Bar - Neocom Site |
NocturN |
Posted - 2003.09.10 23:21:00 -
[61] spy or no spy, they still mine till they drop first heheh. Word of advice, you know who your core members are, setup a seperate channel and discuss stuff in there. |
 NocturN Gallente The Scope |
Posted - 2003.09.10 23:21:00 -
[62] spy or no spy, they still mine till they drop first heheh. Word of advice, you know who your core members are, setup a seperate channel and discuss stuff in there. |
Skillz |
Posted - 2003.09.11 01:16:00 -
[63] Edited by: Skillz on 11/09/2003 01:20:16 Yes, you don't have to be a member of a corp to snoop their channels. You could be a dev but if you were, you'd propably think that corporations are just b0rk. Keep on flaming, lamers. |
 Skillz Amarr |
Posted - 2003.09.11 01:16:00 -
[64] Edited by: Skillz on 11/09/2003 01:20:16 Yes, you don't have to be a member of a corp to snoop their channels. You could be a dev but if you were, you'd propably think that corporations are just b0rk. Keep on flaming, lamers. |
 Huxan Nerbra Amarr Allied Forces |
Posted - 2007.07.20 10:47:00 -
[65]
Yes, this actually helps very much. |
 Stradiot Minmatar Amarryan Nations GoonSwarm |
Posted - 2007.07.20 11:01:00 -
[66] it's me..i'm da spy in da op |
 Grainsalt Free Corp |
Posted - 2007.07.20 11:44:00 -
[67] Necroooooooooooooooooooooooo!! |
 Lube Myholes Nekkid Inc. |
Posted - 2007.07.20 11:46:00 -
[68]
Win |
 Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova KIA Alliance |
Posted - 2007.07.20 12:01:00 -
[69] I know that something was wrong, specially when I saw a post from skillz and a mention to Ragnar ibtl --- truth about EVE:
|
 Cippalippus Primus GoonFleet GoonSwarm |
Posted - 2007.07.20 13:07:00 -
[70] There are no spies. -dpb |
 munchy Alcatraz Inc. |
Posted - 2007.07.20 13:17:00 -
[71]
i hear you can restrict accesses too! but tbh, the op is right imo, spies are a large part of warfare, in eve and otherwise, and you should always take HUGE precautions with assets, and releasing intel. but i think most people already know that =] .... or should do --- |
 Del Narveux Dukes of Hazard |
Posted - 2007.07.20 13:40:00 -
[72] A spy in my midst? O SNAP it must be that damn alt of mine again, always up to no good. This post brought to you by our fine sponsors, and the letters I, B, T, and L. (but seriously, necros are usually bad but thats a wicked sick selfown, definitely worth it) _________________ [SAK] Alumnus--And Proud Of It! -- aka Cpt Bogus Is that my torped sig cloaking your base?
|
 Manic Mole VENOM72 Sylph Alliance |
Posted - 2007.07.20 13:47:00 -
[73] I lol'd. also ibtl, awesome and BRAAAAAAAAIIIINS!! ---[sig starts here]--- a proud member of Venom72 & Sylph. eveything i say is my personal feeling etc, etc, etc... |
 Fuglife Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency |
Posted - 2007.07.20 13:53:00 -
[74] Mmmmm, necro my favourite type of phillia. |
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings |
Posted - 2007.07.20 14:00:00 -
[75] Nice to see some of the suggested features are in place, now if we could only get the two man unlocking procedure ingame. Also Known As |
 Audri Fisher Caldari VentureCorp Imperial Republic Of the North |
Posted - 2007.07.20 14:37:00 -
[76]
Entrapment is covering up the speed limit sighns with bushes just as it changes from 55 to 35. Putting a radar trolley that shows your speed and the legal limit is not, even though cops know that people tend to speed UP to see how high they can make it go. The seeding forums with private info to deter spying is actually a rather nice idea, nothing like a a jail sentence to deter wannabe spies. The problem with spying in eve is that there is no active counter measures available whatsoever. You simply cannot catch a spy until the damage has been done. This is because of OOG communications channels. I can SS BoB's fleet orders, and email them to the goons, and there is no way BoB can 1: know that they have been had, 2: catch the information, or me. No matter how good the spy, they are worthless unless they can get the pertinent information out. |
 Mattduk Gallente Universal Army |
Posted - 2007.07.20 15:19:00 -
[77]
I don't think you understand his example... He didn't mention timing in his example at all. I'll break down what he is getting at. Player X finds out that corp A is going to attack Corp B at H-hour, somewhere. What he is saying is that, armed with that information, it is ok for Player X to go to the CEO of Corp B and tell them, personally, or via an evemail. What he doesn't think is ok is for Player X to post the information, verbatim, for everyone in the world to see on a public forum. There is a difference. Kind regards Mattduk |
Mattduk Gallente Universal Army |
Posted - 2007.07.20 15:20:00 -
[78] Doh! I got necroed! lol /me holds head in shame.. |
 Fabricati Diem Burleigh and Strong |
Posted - 2007.07.20 17:41:00 -
[79] There is not enough unidentified alt posting in this thread. |
 MortyM Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2007.07.20 17:46:00 -
[80] lol @ the mods snipping all the 4 year old posts |
 Belial02 Amarr The Collective Against ALL Authorities |
Posted - 2007.07.20 18:21:00 -
[81] Yeah, but then spying kinda ruins the game as well. Plus they often negate each other. Those plots worthy of the worst Higgins Clark's books are often resulting into such thing as not very 'glorious' titan takedown, thefts, and people waiting for hours just because some cretin coudlnt keep his mouth shut or think its cool to ruin ppls experiences. Thx but no thx. Lets just slaughter each other, to the last, thats why i log on and those old- lady games sicken me.  To the OP, that kind of 'spies' are exactly the same as the people you describe ; they take the game to a below 0 level and feel great about it. Wanna get rid of someone? Grab a gun and shoot him dead. Dont just talk about it and how you're beeing evil and cunning and bla bla bla. Damn...
|
 Silvestri Knights of Chaos Chaos Incarnate. |
Posted - 2007.07.20 18:25:00 -
[82] your mom espionaged her way into my pants....damn spy yes...I shot her....no guns though.  |
 Junkie Beverage GoonFleet GoonSwarm |
Posted - 2007.07.20 19:11:00 -
[83] booya |
 Mimiru Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi |
Posted - 2007.07.20 19:42:00 -
[84]
haha OOps.  Thread Locked*click* -Eldo ([email protected]) --------- |
 Arsicas Dinon |
Posted - 2007.07.20 19:48:00 -
[85] I think that the most interesting topic associated with corporate spying is when will one of these incidents actually make their way into court. A corporation in EVE may not have a tangible product but neither do service based companies in real life. There is a definite dollar value associated with in game products produced by corporations. ISK can be purchased and therefore has a dollar value assigned to it. Some people's entire income(farmers) is based on this game. If there can be a dollar value associated with the losses that say evolution suffered recently or any other corp theft/spying that has happened before then where exactly is the line drawn? I would think the only reason a court would not hear a current case is because these businesses(corps) do not pay taxes - however wasn't there some stuff with goons and taxes...something or another. It will happen some day - I just hope I am around to see it b/c it should make for an interesting read. |
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