I could be wrong, but it appears the only ones against this minor suggestion of altering the timer roll back are those defending the incredibly low risk/reward of farming FW plexes provides and are either not in FW or are themselves taking advantage of this abuse.

Yeah I noticed that too. Funny how current pilots in QQcorp want timer roll backs now that TEST has given Caldari the advantage.

Doesn't anyone think if the FW isk was made harder to get with FW alts, then the mains that these stabbed alts feed might PvP less as a side-effect. Or least pvp much more cheaply, and probably herd towards the blob for more safety.

Who knows if that deadspace fit Vindi you and your pals were so hyped up after taking down was paid by a FW alt? (Stabbed or not)

No.

Easier farming just = inflation as far as I can see :/

People are still as risk averse as ever even with the farming.

Can you elaborate on why you think it would cause the warzone to stagnate?

I could be wrong, but it appears the only ones against this minor suggestion of altering the timer roll back are those defending the incredibly low risk/reward of farming FW plexes provides and are either not in FW or are themselves taking advantage of this abuse.

If that is the case then acknowledging the imbalance this creates and altering it is of no use since it does not impact them except when they need to switch their farming alt to another faction when the tiers change.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

It is folly for a man to pray to the gods for that which he has the power to obtain by himself.

It will lower the amount of time people need to sit in the plexes and lower the need to defend a plex.


Ill try an example:
Gallente Farmer No1 sit in a novice in Innia. For this example we will call him 'James Robert Stone'
He runs the novice for 5min.

At the 5 min mark a very good looking Caldari pilot come along. For this example we will call him 'IbanezLaney'

'James Robert Stone' then leaves the plex and goes back to Eha cause 'blob'

Now instead of sitting in the plex for 15 min to close it - I can dock up and chill while watching local for 5 min.

1/3 less time in space/plex = 1/3 less pew pew available.

There is less reason to undock and defend and dplexing is now partly a passive mechanic.

Less undocking to defend = less pvp.

[Farming situation example]

It will lower the amount of time people need to sit in the plexes and lower the need to defend a plex...

It will lower the amount of time people need to sit in the plexes and lower the need to defend a plex.


Ill try an example:
Gallente Farmer No1 sit in a novice in Innia. For this example we will call him 'James Robert Stone'
He runs the novice for 5min.

At the 5 min mark a very good looking Caldari pilot come along. For this example we will call him 'IbanezLaney'

'James Robert Stone' then leaves the plex and goes back to Eha cause 'blob'

Now instead of sitting in the plex for 15 min to close it - I can dock up and chill while watching local for 5 min.

1/3 less time in space/plex = 1/3 less pew pew available.

There is less reason to undock and defend and dplexing is now partly a passive mechanic.

Less undocking to defend = less pvp.


This makes system defense too easy which I believe will lead to a stagnant warzone.
There will be no point doing offensives to take a system - every reship will mean all ground is lost and you just derped a ship for nothing.

We all like derping ships if there is a purpose or something to gain - but not many will do it for no gain/result.

It is simpler and less messy just to not allow cloaks and stab in accel gates.
Covert Cloaks should still be allowed so ships with specific roles are not effected - just no protos or improved cloaks would work fine.


Anyway - just my perspective on it.
It is good to have both sides brainstorming this stuff.

Quite the contrary, a timer roll-back will increase value of the defenders time to a level closer to that of the attacker.

Keep in mind that the defender is currently burdened with a permanent -25% LP gain from plexing, on top of that you have to account for the contested level and tier. Attacker gets full payout, only affected by tier modifier .. that discrepancy is what caused the honey-bee behaviour of farming alts, they don't care which plex they sit in because they will always come out ahead since every minute they spend means the opposition has to spend 1 minute x multiple modifiers.
I know that only concerns LP, but since VP gain is a static number (ie. same for any size plex), the LP/minute measurement is the best way of visualising the issue .. same reason why the honey-bees generally don't bother with any of the larger plexes.

Side note: Slightly disturbed by you saying that you dock up if you should have some time to kill though .. why not use those five minutes killing and bleeding? Whole point of the campaign to introduce timer-rollbacks is to give you MORE time to pew as honey-bees who stay in a system with a defender will make 0 LP as roll-back timer counters the time he spends if he choses to run rather than fight ----> honey bee leaves system when confronted, letting you roam instead of orbiting buttons.

You are quite right that the more perspectives we add, the better the end result is likely to be. This thing started with people wanting actual auto-run timers or outright timer resets, just shows how "far" it come .. slow but inexorable.

You're wrong. It is pretty clear that this is complete rubbish and that you have just 'made up' an interpretation of the facts of this thread in order to support your argument. This is the worst type of rhetoric - not only is it dishonest but it manages to be riddled with logical fallacies at the same time. Even if you were right about those who object to your views, the fact that they are engaged in certain actions would not do anything to undermine the validity of their views.

So, you stand corrected.

It doesn't matter what their "hidden agenda" is. You have no valid argument and it's been pointed out over and over.

FYI the farmers are definitely pushing Gal Mil atm and Caldari are Being out VP'd by several thousand on a daily basis.

I still want timer rollbacks.

I could be wrong, but it appears the only ones against this minor suggestion of altering the timer roll back are those defending the incredibly low risk/reward of farming FW plexes provides and are either not in FW or are themselves taking advantage of this abuse.

If that is the case then acknowledging the imbalance this creates and altering it is of no use since it does not impact them except when they need to switch their farming alt to another faction when the tiers change.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Your entire argument against our concern is you saying we have no valid concern. By that logic I can shoot down nearly anyone's concern regardless of what it is.

The one arguing that game mechanics need to be changed is the one who needs to prove there's an issue. "Because I say so" is in no way a valid reason to redesign low sec's primary unique mechanic.

So what this really boils down to is that people aren't getting kills as easy as they'd like them. Instead of trying to find a way to change the meta-game, they're looking for ways to nerf those who are being greedy with the LPs.

* I have anxiety issues, deal with it.

We get plenty of kills, the issue we have is with the risk/reward involved in combination with the impact on WZ/System control.

So you already get plenty of kills, but you want ALL the kills.

Tough.

We get plenty of kills, the issue we have is with the risk/reward involved in combination with the impact on WZ/System control.

Interesting.

When Caldari had to deal with the Gallente stabbed/cloaked farmers earlier in the year we were told 'working as intended - HTFU'. You had no problem with it when these farmers were on your side.

I personally believe that plex gates should restrict all ships with cloaks and stabs just as they restrict oversized ships.
This is a true fix.

Timer roll backs will result in a stagnant warzone. It's a good idea in theory but in practice will result in the same amount of farming.
The difference is that dplexs will be the most farmed which will cause the stagnation.

Am I the only one who thinks that being active in low sec at all is inherently risky enough? Much less going to places where PvPers are pretty much guaranteed to go looking for you?

...
The issue IMO is that the risk - losing a poorly fit T1 frigate on a noob alt - is far far less than the rewards of offensive plexing. The problem is that heavy handed modifications that prevent T1 noob alt frigates from running away also significantly increase the risk to "legitimate" players looking to plex in order to PvP or to fund their PvP habits. It makes it far far harder to not be a victim of an inty blob or similar situation involving overwhelming odds that no sane player would willingly engage.

Implementing things like timer rollbacks causes too many unintended consequences IMO.

Implementing dual timers is an interesting concept, and has far less potential for unintended consequences - the same amount of total work needs to be done by each side. Tweaking the rats also makes sense - something like tweaking the rep amount, or adding a target lock breaking mechanic, would make it difficult for stabbed boats to kill the rat in a reasonable time. That would cause fits to be adjusted, which would make WCS heavy fits less practical. Reducing the rewards for plexing changes the equation, but the isk at risk for a stabbed farmer alt is so low that you'd have to heavily nerf income to make it not worthwhile to do. And of course none of this would make a difference at all to stabbed farmer alts DEFENSIVE plexing.

In short, I don't see them being that big of a deal for control of critical systems, and changing things up risks a lot of unintended consequences.