I know I speak for most FW pilots when I say enough is enough

As everybody knows by now, FW experience has been ruined by allowing low-SP alts in stabbed T1 frigates and empty clones to both farm insane amounts of ISK and affect warzone control.

Instead of fighting each others, the PVP-minded FW pilots are forced to chase farmers out of plexes- endlessly. This is the most frustrating thing I've faced in EVE, and it's now time for CCP to acknowledge the situation.

My corpmate wrote a good blog post that lists the commonly suggested solutions:

- timer rollbacks
- buffing the NPCs
- rebalancing warp core stabs
- cloak prevention mechanism

Currently the farmers risk nearly nothing in space assets, time spent or lost value- cheapest PVE ships possible in game, timers don't reset and there's always a new plex to farm.

If you support fixing FW, post your ideas here, on all relevant forum sections or anywhere, contact your CSM representative or CCP directly. I know I speak for most FW pilots when I say enough is enough, farming has to end. It's up to us to make CCP wake up.

Too many powerful groups are heavily invested in FW farming for CSM, or CCP, to do anything about it.

That being said, if the day comes that CCP does nerf FW LP income, then I imagine they will have already axed incursion income, and L4 income.

Mate, most FW pilots are farming alts, so you are definitely not speaking for 'most FW pilots'.

What is your point actually, you don't like farmers ? You don't want guys to make LPs/ISK easily ? Is something preventing you to make the same isk yourself ?

My opinion is the only problem with FW is the lack of goals / no reason to push forward after a certain tier has been achieved, no endgame in it whatsoever, only the constant cycle.

The income is comparable to low-end sleeper PVE, hisec L4 missions and requires less than 1/10th of the SP and ISK investment.

Such asGǪ?

You could say all of these things or you could say its all boll**ks.

Your choice.

surprisingly bad isk/hr

Right now I'm barely making 400m/hr

Right now I'm barely making 400m/hr

surprisingly bad isk/hr

You know that other thread we have, where the wormhole-dweller OP got ganked in highsec in his faction fit ECM Tengu? There's insinuation that because wormhole dwellers make so much ISK, they lose touch of what a more standard income actually is. That seems to be happening here. Of course the difference is that wormhole dwellers have to put considerably more effort and risk into what they do for their gains.

Or maybe he just was being sarcastic. Not that it would've stopped him, and others, from using what they can use

I don't care if FW mission runners make 2bil/hr no matter how broken it is, since their mission running has no effect on system occupancy.

Too many powerful groups are heavily invested in FW farming for CSM, or CCP, to do anything about it.
That being said, if the day comes that CCP does nerf FW LP income, then I imagine they will have already axed incursion income, and High Sec L4 income.

More importantly, you could say all of those things and still be left with the question of GÇ£So what?GÇ¥

Why would the CSM or CCP not do anything about it if it's a problem? What are these powerful groups? How are they keeping CCP from fixing things that are broken?

L4s at T3/4 are surprisingly bad isk/hr, because everyone else is busy crashing the LP price. Right now I'm barely making 400m/hr

Rainbow Dash was rather obviously sarcastic, but FW L4s are not really relevant to this thread- I don't care if FW mission runners make 2bil/hr no matter how broken it is, since their mission running has no effect on system occupancy. The hundreds of stealth bombers flying around are irrelevant.

Disposable plex farming alts, however, can't be ignored. These farmers will eventually push the system vulnerable if left unattended. No RF timers, no PVP, just week old alts orbiting a button.

Isn't this the same type of stuff when people complain about "Disposable Gank Alts"?

So, is there a trend here of disposable alts being a problem in the game?

Or is it just a matter of, people only complain when it is their gameplay that is ****** with?

Enquiring minds want to know.

Is there a technical hurdle with implementing timer rollbacks? The timer is already there and knows if someone for one faction or both is within range and uncloaked. No one home? Poof back to original time.

+1 for timer rollbacks

P.S. Please make the rats slightly tougher and have them shoot anyone who isn't in their faction that enters the plex.

As everybody knows by now, FW experience has been ruined by allowing low-SP alts in stabbed T1 frigates and empty clones to both farm insane amounts of ISK and affect warzone control.

Instead of fighting each others, the PVP-minded FW pilots are forced to chase farmers out of plexes- endlessly. This is the most frustrating thing I've faced in EVE, and it's now time for CCP to acknowledge the situation.

My corpmate wrote a good blog post that lists the commonly suggested solutions:

- timer rollbacks
- buffing the NPCs
- rebalancing warp core stabs
- cloak prevention mechanism

Currently the farmers risk nearly nothing in space assets, time spent or lost value- cheapest PVE ships possible in game, timers don't reset and there's always a new plex to farm.

If you support fixing FW, post your ideas here, on all relevant forum sections or anywhere, contact your CSM representative or CCP directly. I know I speak for most FW pilots when I say enough is enough, farming has to end. It's up to us to make CCP wake up.

Or you pick up a combat ship on d-scan, warp to the gate and suddenly the ship disappears off your radar - he cloaked as soon as he picked your ship up on short range.

Oh look.

All these veteran FW pilots have made their ISKies and want to turn the money printer off now.

If you kill the income in FW you're going to set FW back to the stone age that existed before they revamped FW. Most of those farming alts feed PLEXes and ships to the PvP mains. Go ahead and kill FW income so in 6 months time I can come to the forums and see you whining that "LowSec is empty and we have no targets".

FW was irrelevant before the updates and LowSec was a backwater. CCP gave new life to both when they updated FW and later on with exploration. If you want to kill FW, make it so that PvPers have to spend more time doing carebear stuff to afford their ships and become more risk averse as a result.

On the other hand though I would support a full, all out war between the empires.

You're blind if you think it doesn't contribute. Even the stealth bombers like riding the gravy train; who do you think keeps those ihubs crammed with LP for so long? Hint: It's not the plex farmers that have nothing to do but d-plex after two weeks.

Ultimately, you're quite correct that the root of the problem is low barrier of entry and the incredibly broken payouts associated with plex farming. But it leads to other problems that also need correction in the long run.

Personally, I don't believe that high warzone tier should be the only factor in high payouts.

There needs to be an actual loyalty system incorporated, so that time served and actions taken are also a factor; you will never get rid of farmers completely, but you can limit them to the dregs of FW rewards, and save the good stuff for people who stay and contribute to the PvP element.

Reading is hard, rite

We don't want to "kill FW income". We want to change plexing so that everybody has to actually fight for the plex, or lose the time spent.

You sound like you want FW to be some kind of isk printer for everyone else.

I've filed your post in file 13 alongside the gankers are ruining the game and afk cloaking threads. As a neut who has found a few nice kills in and around a fw plex it seems to me that you want your own private play area in the sand box. On the other hand though I would support a full, all out war between the empires.

Well Roime, I would not worry about the faucet being turned on much longer.

I have been grooming a char (I did not realize I could do it with a 3 day char) to join some kind of small gang thing, and FW was definitely on the list.

Rest assured , if I join FW, CCP will then indeed move to nerf it, since they track whatever activity I get my chars into, then promptly nerf that activity.

Ahhem, they aren't your rewards, they are the rewards of whoever can get them, just like a ninja salvager stealing a mission runners loot. They only belong to you when they are in your hanger.

They're not my rewards at all, since I no longer participate in FW due to the cancer being discussed in this thread.

And last I checked, I've never had a single LP show up in my hangar.

I spent just over a week in FW, popped a few ships, shot at a few structures, sat in space a lot, and got yelled at by my own militia for closing a plex.

And then another time I got scolded for maintaining range and not warping straight into the middle of the wannabe blob. Who had control during that single engagement? I did. You're welcome.

Really wanted to enjoy it, but didn't. I support making it better.

Audiatur et altera pars.

Inevitably the farmers will flock to this thread.

they are no more than belt rats to you.

Audiatur et altera pars.

Inevitably the farmers will flock to this thread.

Lol, why do belligerent undesirables always get so mad when they are bested by people who work smarter not harder?

Which is half the problem. I'm not looking to shoot belt rats. I would gladly trade a more 'empty' lowsec if I knew the people I find had fittings on their ships, and might actually be interested in fighting.

The other half is that the 'belt rats' have overwhelming control over FW sovereignty. They control who gets to dock where, and not because they care about FW as a mechanic, but because they want to ride the gravy train. As soon as one side is tapped out, they switch or roll a new farming alt and start farming it up on the other side.

I'd like an empty low sec too, but that's because I like to explore without using probes and rat at belts, but I fully accept that other people have the right to deny me my spoils, how are you any different to a miner or a hauler complaining about gankers?

Good lord. Are you ignorant, or just being obtuse?

You really don't get what the purpose of this thread is, do you?

Jesus Christ, I'm willing to bet my hair I'm not the only one who's thought of this, but I might be the only one to put this out for you.
I know you want to make an interesting character, something refreshing and new, but those cryptic phrases and Latin you push across the board just comes out as pseudo-intellectual, wannabe pretentious, stupid, annoying ****. I don't think anyone will be bothered to seek translations or take you even remotely seriously. I just care about your time and effort.

As for the topic; timer rollbacks sound the best.

Good lord. Are you ignorant, or just being obtuse?

You really don't get what the purpose of this thread is, do you?

Because its not smarter..every idiot and his mother can do it ..and thats the problem, we joined fw for pvp and to fund our pvp while we pvp...they just joined to farm..nothing more and nothing less.

I do not understand why neutral people to fw come here to challange our plea..maybe because you have alts in stabbed frigs farming for you? Clearly...otherwise you would not care about this.

Wich part you guys hang out lol , i think you overrated this problem , i see those farmers too, but the majority gives me fights.

By nerfing fw you gonna buuried again me thinks. im in for timer reset solo if you cloacked as mention before.

Dont forget the little guys friend , you may be top 2 batlltclinic bla bla , and i can effort also to "farm" in tech2&faction , but plenty of guys also who just are simpel newbros with 1 account , tey need those lp to keep them going to get expiernce en skills etc

The problem is not how much LP you get, but how. Because of an oversight/loophole in the plexing mechanics, non-FW people are able to exploit the LP payout system, and their actions also happen to affect the warzone control...

Why is that a response? Here's an area of the game that's supposed to brew conflict and actual warfare. That's the explicit stated intent. Instead players are using it to farm massive amounts of isk and people are actually driven away from the warfare aspect because too many of them just want to carebear.

You know that other thread we have, where the wormhole-dweller OP got ganked in highsec in his faction fit ECM Tengu? There's insinuation that because wormhole dwellers make so much ISK, they lose touch of what a more standard income actually is. That seems to be happening here. Of course the difference is that wormhole dwellers have to put considerably more effort and risk into what they do for their gains.

And what the h3lll does HTFU even mean ffs .... speak english( or atleast somethin close to that , like me ) because i cba to learn every acronym there is just because you are lazy ..

Making them have to jump through extra hurdles to cap a plex, reducing payouts, making "no cloak zones", making the rats harder... it will not give you more kills, because people can still simply warp out when there's someone on scan.

She has a point, though.

Miner complains: "This is not fair! This is ruining my game! Low SP characters in cheap, disposable ships can just come and ruin my play with no consequence to themselves!"

FWer complains: "This is not fair! This is ruining my game! Low SP characters in cheap, disposable ships can just come and ruin my play with no consequence to themselves!"

I mean, you and I flew in FW together for a long while. You know that I know how frustrating it can be when a target gets away... but there's really no solution to it. People will still be able to warp out of a plex when you're on DScan. Making them have to jump through extra hurdles to cap a plex, reducing payouts, making "no cloak zones", making the rats harder... it will not give you more kills, because people can still simply warp out when there's someone on scan.

Also it's nice to know that if I'm really busy IRL and need to get some quick ISK to PvP with, I can run a few plexes.

Can you imagine the outrage if a similar mechanism was at work in Null sec and noob farmer alts had the potential to remove access from stations for people living there?

I'll abstain from this thread then since I don't have direct knowledge, but given what I've heard it wouldn't surprise me if he were serious.

the best way to 'win' the plexing mechanic is to run away every time someone else enters

this is a problem because the whole point of faction war is 'pvp for isk' and the reason for plexes to exist is to provoke pvp encounters

the best fix is to make 'staying and fighting people off' a more attractive option than 'running and boring everyone else off'

limiting stabs and cloaks inside plexes (limiting player choice) is not a good route to fixing the problem. this should be a last resort only.

- timer rollbacks
- buffing the NPCs
- cloak prevention mechanism

'staying and died to an uberfit ganker or rather group of gankers' vs 'running and boring everyone else off'

actually, more like

'staying and died to an uberfit ganker or rather group of gankers, losing a ship and time, giving them a killmail that will encourage them to look for me more frequently resulting in the loss of more time and possibly ships' vs 'no fun allowed'

There's insinuation that because wormhole dwellers make so much ISK, they lose touch of what a more standard income actually is.

Well people in Null tend to be more active in their stating system.. maybe that is part of your problem

But also they would probalyl be more active in the PvP sense to keep them away.. be it gate camps or in FW sense camping the plexes to keep them away.

Hell you can even keep your 1 week old alt at the plex to keep away the undesirables

I like the false premise that you should have to PvP that these sorts of threads are always based on.

In the end it's really a judgement call - an opinion not actually rooted in anything that would actually improve the game.

i think as soon there are timer rollbacks you don't need any of the other points. It will all fix itself. All you have to do is to patrol your space and pve boats have no chance anymore to control the warzone. Cloaks, stabs whatever.. all become useless.

Just to reiterate my personal opinion if it is not clear- FW LP payouts are very well balanced if you actually participate in the PVP part. LP together with all the PVP loot are enough to sustain active daily FW fighting. We have access to nice LP stores where we can buy ships, implants, ammo etc for reduced prices. This works, we can keep on fighting- you won't get rich, and if you want to fly stuff like T2 cruisers a lot, you'll need additional sources of income. During heavy campaigning the income stops almost completely, which in itself is a very nice dynamic and simulates war rather well.

The problem is not how much LP you get, but how. Because of an oversight/loophole in the plexing mechanics, non-FW people are able to exploit the LP payout system, and their actions also happen to affect the warzone control, and the daily life of people who try to engage in FW like it was meant to. This isn't an economic problem because the payouts are LP, not ISK, just a cancer of an otherwise fantastic gameplay area.

Stabbed, cloaky farmers are the bane of FW.

Is there anything more depressing then getting a Venture on d-scan towards a FW plex? Or you pick up a combat ship on d-scan, warp to the gate and suddenly the ship disappears off your radar - he cloaked as soon as he picked your ship up on short range. Utterly broken mechanics that need one simple fix - timer resets. I honestly think this one change would eliminate most of these plex farmers.

How many times does this need spelling out - it's not the easily gained LP factor or lack of PvP thats the real problem, they are more annoyances then anything else. It's the fact that these week old characters can have a direct effect on Sovereignty of a system.

Can you imagine the outrage if a similar mechanism was at work in Null sec and noob farmer alts had the potential to remove access from stations for people living there?

So, this is a thread full of elite PvPers complaining about people having found counters to their tactics. Of course, it would be nice if everyone would just offer themselves up on a plate to their betters but some people are going to, you know, not want to die.

There is an easy answer to stabs. Simply fit more points. But most of the elite guys don't want to do that because they don't want to gimp their own fits. Unfortunately, though, that's what it comes down to - you have to make choices. There are means at your disposal to defeat these tactics but you don't want to take advantage of them because that will stop you doing other things that you like to do. Tough. You can't have everything and you can't expect the game to be designed to force everyone to play in the style that suits you.

As to cloaks, the issue here is no different than it is anywhere else in the game. Cloaky guys are hard to kill. Like anyone else in the game going up against cloaks, you have to live with that. Cloaky ships cannot run down timers with the cloak activated so if you force someone to cloak you can sit in the plex and run down the timer yourself. Well done, you have won that battle and neutralised his ability to pursue control of the warzone. No real problem (unless of course you just want to kill things and don't really want to sit around running the timer down?).

So, this is a thread full of elite PvPers complaining about people having found counters to their tactics. Of course, it would be nice if everyone would just offer themselves up on a plate to their betters but some people are going to, you know, not want to die.

There is an easy answer to stabs. Simply fit more points. But most of the elite guys don't want to do that because they don't want to gimp their own fits. Unfortunately, though, that's what it comes down to - you have to make choices. There are means at your disposal to defeat these tactics but you don't want to take advantage of them because that will stop you doing other things that you like to do. Tough. You can't have everything and you can't expect the game to be designed to force everyone to play in the style that suits you.

As to cloaks, the issue here is no different than it is anywhere else in the game. Cloaky guys are hard to kill. Like anyone else in the game going up against cloaks, you have to live with that. Cloaky ships cannot run down timers with the cloak activated so if you force someone to cloak you can sit in the plex and run down the timer yourself. Well done, you have won that battle and neutralised his ability to pursue control of the warzone. No real problem (unless of course you just want to kill things and don't really want to sit around running the timer down?).

Just wanted to emphasis that last part there so hopefully some whiners can see. They've complained about these "farmers" not caring about the WZ and faction control. But if these guys in FW go to a plex and target cloaks up, then run off without running timer themselves just to look for a fight in another plex (thereby abandoning the plex and its control if closed) then they also don't care about the WZ and control for their side.

Just wanted to emphasis that last part there so hopefully some whiners can see. They've complained about these "farmers" not caring about the WZ and faction control. But if these guys in FW go to a plex and target cloaks up, then run off without running timer themselves just to look for a fight in another plex (thereby abandoning the plex and its control if closed) then they also don't care about the WZ and control for their side.

As everybody knows by now, FW experience has been ruined by allowing low-SP alts in stabbed T1 frigates and empty clones to both farm insane amounts of ISK and affect warzone control.

As everybody knows by now, FW experience has been ruined by allowing low-SP alts in stabbed T1 frigates and empty clones to both farm insane amounts of ISK and affect warzone control.

Instead of fighting each others, the PVP-minded FW pilots are forced to chase farmers out of plexes- endlessly. This is the most frustrating thing I've faced in EVE, and it's now time for CCP to acknowledge the situation.

My corpmate wrote a good blog post that lists the commonly suggested solutions:

- timer rollbacks
- buffing the NPCs
- rebalancing warp core stabs
- cloak prevention mechanism

Currently the farmers risk nearly nothing in space assets, time spent or lost value- cheapest PVE ships possible in game, timers don't reset and there's always a new plex to farm.

If you support fixing FW, post your ideas here, on all relevant forum sections or anywhere, contact your CSM representative or CCP directly. I know I speak for most FW pilots when I say enough is enough, farming has to end. It's up to us to make CCP wake up.

they also totaly ignore mission runners, and that's where all the LP (LP = isk) is. They are just sad cause they cannot gank efficiently. And for some strange reason they stick to term "pvp" instead of "gank" or "kill farm".

Somehow they started to belive that killing helpless noobs is a glorious, and pvpish thing to do. It could be (I know I would never get bored of it if the wheel turns for me), but only when we stick to honest terminology. Ganking and kill farming.

But then, suddenly, they couldn't come here to cry about not being able to do the thing "the game is all about". I guess for someone frustrating you with wcs and laughing at your nicely fitted ship being unable to do a thing could be the thing "the game is all about".

maybe you don't find pvp because you hide in big fleets too often...

Not sure where you get your info mate, but rest assured that we indeed "farm kills" and "gank" very efficiently. Oh and correct, we do like to call engaging war targets in factional warfare "PVP".




Confirming our whole corporate ethos is based on the glorification of killing new players. In fact we only log in to kill helpless noobs, if there are no <1 week old pilots available and present for ritual killing, we log off and petition CCP for not providing us easy kills. It's not like we actually wanted to fight anyone, we just collect killmails. I'd actually like this game more if I wouldn't even have to log in, I could just pay PLEX to see a constant stream of noob killmails on my battleclinic page. The newer, the tastier <3

Getting a killmail for a one-day old player in a terrible fit that cost him all his ISK, his unupdated clone and the free implants is like the holy grail of every Elite PVPer. We ********** over it in a ring for weeks, print it out and give to our mothers on Christmas Eve. Our mothers put them on display over the fireplace and all their friends admire it.

MY SON KILLED THIS NOOB AND PODDED HIM TOO, I'M SO PROUD

Anyway, this thread is definitely all about changing the mechanics to make EVE harder for new players, and easier for us Elite PVPers to kill new players -you got that right, son.




Whether or not EVE Online is all about PVP is a subject under continuous and heated debate, I have my personal opinion on that but it's really irrelevant to the this discussion- Faction Warfare is definitely intended to be all about PVP. Now the question here is an oversight in the mechanics that makes it actually more about farming LP.

Especialy since this thread is about CCP helping you catch warp stabed people.

What you are offering would just make FW deserted.

People who come to FW generaly want to fight and earn cash. If you had to fight absolutly everyone in order to get cash it would discourage people massively. The resilent ones would also pretty soon face financial problems.

Plex takes 10-20 min and rarely happens without any intrusion. Sometimes it's 3 people in a row, but 1-2 is way more often. You would demand from players to win those fights just to get the cash (not fight - win).

When that happens people will start to look elsewhere, and it means you've just broken your own game board, and have empty space just for yourself.

You can count on vets pvping anyway, but again - how many are there? If many - why would you bother with warp stabbed people, farmers etc?

FW attracts people because it creates nice income you can spend on fancy ships, t2 frigs and such. For me pvp is just practice (I have to admitt) because I still loose way too often, but without income I wouldn't pvp at all.

Sandbox mechanics is about money-making. Everything else is secondary despite fairy tales like "EVE is a PvP game". Those low SP alts definitely get the main idea of the game - unlike most "PvPers". If you want quality PvP - War Thunder is that way ===>

Can anybody offer a valid reason against having timer resets on plexes?
Farmers could still fit cloaks and stabs and make isk plexing, they would just have to work harder to do it. Defenders more interested in PvP don't have to waste as much time chasing farmers and orbiting buttons. Any L.P farming should be done by running missions and these would be unaffected by a plex timer reset.

That's odd. Roime and the other QCats posters are all responding to everything except the suggestion they fit the actual counter to wcs. You know, the one that would allow them to kill these infuriating farmers and that has already been provided by CCP.

Well that's what you got wrong - it's not about making the stabbed or cloaked people easier to catch. It's about changing FW plex mechanics so that a pilot wanting LP rewards has to fight for the plex, and not cloak or run. If the timer would be reset when the starter leaves grid, it would at least add a consequence for a farmer- time lost. If you value your time, you stay and fight for it. If you don't want to fight, maybe find some other, more peaceful system to plex, or make your iskies in some PVE activity.

As you know, current mechanics allow the plexer to continue where he left off after the defender leaves.

Do you seriously think we dont fly with dual/triple scrams already?

Let me link you my most flown fit for last few weeks

[Malediction, Deryn Angrard's Malediction]
200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Ballistic Control System II
Small Ancillary Armor Repairer

Warp Scrambler II
Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I
Warp Scrambler II

Rocket Launcher II,Caldari Navy Inferno Rocket
Rocket Launcher II,Caldari Navy Inferno Rocket
Rocket Launcher II,Caldari Navy Inferno Rocket

Small Ancillary Current Router I

So how are people fitting wcs a problem then? You're as capable of killing them as you are any other ship.

Can anybody offer a valid reason against having timer resets on plexes?
Farmers could still fit cloaks and stabs and make isk plexing, they would just have to work harder to do it. Defenders more interested in PvP don't have to waste as much time chasing farmers and orbiting buttons. Any L.P farming should be done by running missions and these would be unaffected by a plex timer reset.

i think as soon there are timer rollbacks you don't need any of the other points. It will all fix itself. All you have to do is to patrol your space and pve boats have no chance anymore to control the warzone. Cloaks, stabs whatever.. all become useless.

We want people to fight in a war. Not to run and hide.

Told you, then screamed it at you .. then CCP went ahead with "expansion" despite logical reasoning from the few non-drooling entrenched FW players. Kept saying it even after general drooling developed into full blown frothing-at-mouth-LP-greed and alliances were allowed in with no restrictions whatsoever ... and on and on.

At any rate: Welcome to the Fix FW Club.

PS: And yes, I am that full of myself .. sometimes unwarranted, but in this completely justified.

Roll-backs won't do it on their own, too many damn systems to cover. Plays a major role though.

Additionals/Alternatives:
- De-couple majority of LP generation from warzone influence, lets farmers farm while the rest of us get to shoot each other over imaginary holdings.
- Make LP store offers less valuable outside of FW itself (gonna cause some rage, but surest way of evicting farmers).
- Better options for using space actually captured, upgrade stuff is just moronic .. much better than what was introduced but who even knows or cares what is gained other than a point towards tier.
- Remove tier. Screw global, go local! Make system upgrades expensive and valuable as hell, to create pockets of high activity and the bloodshed that follows.
- Diminishing returns when deliberately operating away from enemy (ie. in the hinterlands).
- Give neutrals (pirates) a reason beyond random ganks to enter plexes, that is add unaligned as a 3rd faction. I want to see Amak as Tortuga .. entrenched neutrals of various colours warding off the evil imperialistic milita's and profiting from it.
- Inhibit the ability to force project into warzone (and low-sec in general) from "outside". If ****-ant Denmark can demand the mighty US disarm (nukes anyway) military ships before entering their waters surely the Empires of Eve can set (similar) restrictions on capitals entering their spheres of influence.
- Rat/Plex balance to be better in tune with reward. Full-spawn-stop mechanic is probably the main contributor to the farm.

My normal routine of playing these days is:
Log in, start chasing farmers, chase them for couple of hours, log off to sleep with maybe 1 good fight against neutrals.

The 122 kills you have racked up the last 10 days suggests that this is a complete lie.

This is really what it comes down to.. You guys don't want to orbit the buttons because it is boring. I fully agree that it is but asking for things to be set up so that you don't have to do any of the boring work and can just fly around getting easy fights from the people who are orbiting the buttons seems a bit ... well, self-centred.

Yup, i get more kills than i have ever gotten before. Guess what, 80-90% of those are farmers. Pretty much all actually good fights are against neutrals.

You have yet to explain to me how cloaky/stabbed frigs are fun for anyone. we get a lot of hate for killing them because apparently we are griefing because we want to defend our systems, and sure as hell no one of our corp enjoys killing them.

we joined fw for pvp and to fund our pvp while we pvp...they just joined to farm..nothing more and nothing less.
.

I don't think it's self centred to point out that plex farmers are abusing the spirit of FW, which is to join a permanent war dec so you can gain easy access to PvP. The vast majority have no interest in PvP they are just exploiting a flawed mechanic Imo.

In just the last 4 days you have 20 kills that are neither capsules nor frigates, 12 of which are either cruisers, battleships or T2 ships. Excuse we while I weep over the fact that these stabbed frigs are stopping you getting any PvP.

But, more generally, the fact that you admit that you CAN kill these guys by the bucket load vitiates the entire argument of this thread. There is obviously no need to nerf stabbed ships since they can be brought to action and destroyed.

The assumption that things have to be fun is, in general, one that CCP's designers have publicly and explicitly rejected. EvE is not a theme-park MMO. Grinding the markets is not fun. Mining is not fun. Bashing structures is not fun. And chasing farmers is not fun. We can also add that farming isn't fun either. Lot's of the activities in this game take sweat, effort and boredom and asking for options to be taken away from other players in order to make your own game more fun is not going to fly.

I don't think it's self centred to point out that plex farmers are abusing the spirit of FW, which is to join a permanent war dec so you can gain easy access to PvP. The vast majority have no interest in PvP they are just exploiting a flawed mechanic Imo.

FW plex farming is great!

I made bucket loads of isk via LP on this 500,000 skill point alt and only times i lost a frig was once to insta-locking Thrahers on a gate and once when my computer froze up whilst in a plex. I've stolen LP off 'legitimate' plex runners by warping in their plex with seconds to go on the button and funded activities on my main that would have taken him months to finance in other ways even though he has around 30 mill skill points.

I can't argue with people's complaints about the current set up but I'll continue to ride the gravy train as and when I need to until they make it that this low skilled alt can't farm billions of isk worth of LP :).

yes aftyer checking you killboard , im sorry to say , but 80 a 90% is farm boy is just a lie

FW Spirit won't give me a new ship. Well, it will, but I ain't gonna pvp in an Ibis.

Pure farmers are exploiting, but there's yet to be a system that no-lifers can't exploit. We're still talking about making it harder for genuine newbies. They run, they farm, and then they buy ships and get blown out of the sky. As newbs should o7

FW Spirit won't give me a new ship. Well, it will, but I ain't gonna pvp in an Ibis.

Pure farmers are exploiting, but there's yet to be a system that no-lifers can't exploit. We're still talking about making it harder for genuine newbies. They run, they farm, and then they buy ships and get blown out of the sky. As newbs should o7

TBH mate from what you type you are not part of the problem. I agree that newbies in FW need to be able to earn decent isk but would it not be just as easy for newbro's to run missions that don't affect system occupancy? My main gripe is that I and fellow corpies have to continually d-plex our system otherwise we get locked out and lose access to our ships. Now if doing this involved PvP, like when one of the major Caldari groups launches a concerted offensive it's the most fun I have in game because we have continual fights. However when it consists of orbiting a button for 20 minutes because a 3 day old alt is cloaked up in the plex waiting for you to leave it's dull, disheartening and completely opposite to the intentions of FW.

17 T1 non-faction frigs in the last four days and 24 other ships. Even if every single one of those T1s is an evil farmer, that's still only 41%. And actually, looking at their fits, only 1 (!) has a triple wcs setup while quite a few are clearly standard PvP fit T1 frigs with no stabs at all.

Lies, all lies.

Edit - The vast majority of those T1 non-faction frigs, even the ones with stabs, are fit for combat (faction ammo and normal fittings). Have you (Deryn) considered that the reason T1 frigs run from you is because you normally approach them in vastly superior ships?

No, definitely the most guys in FW you come by for a fight are cloaked and stabbed, they are not on the killboard because they run, it's well known that pure farming low level SP characters is wrong in FW, no need to defend it, it was made for war.

Yesterday come by two caldari militia pilots in a plex, breacher and condor, I am in a condor.. I decide to jump in anyway because hey I am looking for a fight and I guess its only a small chance they will stay, of course they cloaked.

I laugh at everyone who is arguing against it, you obviously make all your main ISK by playing a cloaked stabbed FW alt IMO it's worse than mining.

i wonder if test was on your side if this tread would happen then...

The vast majority of those T1 non-faction frigs, even the ones with stabs, are fit for combat (faction ammo and normal fittings). Have you (Deryn) considered that the reason T1 frigs run from you is because you normally approach them in vastly superior ships?

No, definitely the most guys in FW you come by for a fight are cloaked and stabbed, they are not on the killboard because they run, it's well known that pure farming low level SP characters is wrong in FW, no need to defend it, it was made for war.

Yesterday come by two caldari militia pilots in a plex, breacher and condor, I am in a condor.. I decide to jump in anyway because hey I am looking for a fight and I guess its only a small chance they will stay, of course they cloaked.

I laugh at everyone who is arguing against it, you obviously make all your main ISK by playing a cloaked stabbed FW alt IMO it's worse than mining.

When looking for a fight I'm mainly flying something like a breacher or firetail, neither of which are that scary ships, still many of even PVP fit war targets run away

It isnt that rare to see 3-4 War targets in a plex, when i decide to suicide my solo breacher there, they all either cloak up or warp away.

So, what you're saying is they cloaked and you had control of the plex. Where's the problem? It has become apparent in this thread that the real issue is that you guys just don't want to have to do the grunt work of actually capping plexes and that you resent people using tactics that force you to actually do that work.

And I make my isk on the markets. I find it hard to conceive of the tiny amounts of isk you can earn plexing as a real motivating factor.

Weak attempt at turning it around, if you read properly you will find I did not go in the plex to get control of the plex, I went in the plex to hopefully get a 2v1 fight.

You can bladibla all day long about "you don't want to do the grunt work" but mate, everyone true in FW and around knows it is not meant to be for that, and actually they are the ones who should do a little more work than just orbiting a button and cloaking when someone turns up, it is not exactly faction warfare

If you are just the market guy, maybe this is not really your field to be talking about unless you have an alt in FW (which I doubt otherwise you know the annoyance of them)?

Not interested in hijacking this, but ...

You're making me interested in rolling an alt just to make easy billions.
I think your thread is kind of counter-productive.

ATM if you just wanna farm you are better off with 4 toons, 1 for each militia so you can farm with whatever one is at the highest tier, that or get 1 corp to manage the standings and have them on 4 different accounts and you can hop to the various Faction that has the highest Tier. I recommend going the mission running route though rather than plexing if you wanna farm.

Timer Rollbacks Please!

.."My source of income is elsewhere and I pvp in militia space. I want you to pvp against me, and make profit elsewhere"

And we're back to "FW is supposed to be a way to introduce new players to pvp". Good thinking - we all know we should try harder to "repopulate" high sec.

Expanding FW system and adding new stuff sounds great, but limiting amount of people by cutting profits is what I said earlier - counter-productive...

I'm not talking about hisec mining, mission running or null anom running. Bears can be bears, they are involved in PVE activities.

Factional Warfare plexes, however, are explicitly meant to facilitate PVP combat. Running plexes is the only way to push FW systems to vulnerable state so that the Infrastructure Hub can be attacked. It's the equivalent of reinforcing structures in null sov.

We either have a couple people serious about trolling and derailing a thread started to facilitate constructive ideas for the betterment of FW or some people truly fear losing their easy mode ISK source. Lets be realistic here, we aren't discussing new players trying to make some start-up ISK and anyone who implies otherwise IS trolling or just oblivious. The problem we are fighting here is semi-afk plex alts impacting the warzones with as absolutely little risk as possible. I have lost count of the number of conversations I have had with these people, bragging about running incursions, fleeting up, or hi-sec mining on their mains while they make easy ISK.

Keep in mind that I don't have any issue with people making ISK, I do in fact believe people making ISK keeps things active in the warzone with plenty of ships to explode. I am also quite happy that there is a low barrier to entry into FW, for those wanting to explore the option. The problem is almost never the person who won't fight, although there are some of those and they are frustrating in another aspect. That is their choice to actively evade fighting and probing while trying to capture a complex in a defended system. No complaints there, can't make them fight, oh well we deal with it. Simple changes like timer rollbacks and rats that can tank reasonable DPS won't make it any harder for those individuals to claim a complex. They will however, and I am sure this is what is causing the arguments, make that condor fit some DPS mods in the lows and maybe use that CPU for it as well ( instead of a cloak). Why such a problem with that? They can still go run defensive complexes in their cloaked and stabbed ships. They would no longer have as large of an impact in a system they have no interest in doing anything but farming in.

Something does ultimately need to be done to limit this type of activity. I and my faction warfare allies attempt to hold the sovereignty of our home systems in the spirit of the design for little to no reward. We know how to counter it, we are here to tell CCP that it is creating serious issues that will impact the system and the game in general if we are forced to counter it in it's current iteration, in perpetuity. It has already done so with many people tiring of it and asking for changes almost immediately with more and more doing the same all the time. If all you have to say is "Oh its all about you" and "You just want to farm noobs" then you bring nothing constructive to the conversation. Try to be big boys and girls, tough as it may be, and add something to help resolve the issue rather than the simplistic trolling.

The problem is that no one has actually made a compelling case that establishes that there is a real problem. All we have heard is that people doing this stuff means that you guys have to actually cap plexes when you don't want to do so. Farmers can be killed or driven off without much difficulty. You can hold your plexes against them without much difficulty. Where is the problem? Well, the problem is that you don't want to do the necessary things, not that you can't.

As I see it, the current issue is not the mechanics, it's that you are faced at the moment with an overwhelming numerical superiority. Don't get me wrong - that absolutely sucks. But it does not mean that the mechanics you identify are broken. You are trying to hold the line against much higher numbers and that means you have to work much harder to do so if you want to maintain control. That is leading to burnout among some players who just don't enjoy doing what is needed to counter the enemy's tactics.

Now, there might be an argument to be had about balancing things when faced with a major numerical imbalance on one side of the war but that would be a different discussion. The topics that have been picked up on here, i.e. stabbed or cloaky farmers, already have direct counters and what is being argued for is a change in the rules so that you don't have to counter them because you don't enjoy doing so. If you frame the real issue honestly and acknowledge that what you object to is being swarmed by a numerically superior force and that you don't think that should be possible in the FW environment then there is the chance for a decent conversation. But currently what are being trotted out are a load of canards backed up by misleading statements.

We ask for this change even when the farmers are on our side. The reason we want it changed is low skilled farming alts are the fastest way to impact the war zone at the moment. Generally speaking we would like to see that changed.

Home systems are actively defended. Actively Defending the entire FW zone is out of the question with the current player base. In 3-5 years if Eve continues to grow it may be possible, but for now it is not.

Timer Rollbacks won't stop farmers from farming, what it will do is make it slightly harder for them to have the mass impact that they currently do on the Warzone (basically everything outside of home systems). They will still impact the warzone for sure, but not quite as much as now.

EDIT: There are also frequently more than 3 plexes in a system.

Sure, its all numbers. Spreadsheets in space and all that.

My cloaky farmer alt sits in a Medium plex for 18 min. A WT comes to the activation gate so I cloak up. Currently if he wants to cap the plex he has to sit in the plex for the base time of the plex as well as the 18 minutes that my cloaky farmer sat there. All we are asking for is that if the person that was running the plex bails or cloaks the timer goes back to the base time of the plex.

This will reduce the impact the cloaky farmers have on the warzone without stopping them from being able to plex as well as insentivize them to stay and actually fight for the plex that they have invested 18 minutes into.

You sound as if you do not want this change. Why is that?

Agreed, had a farming plexer yesterday call me a "noob loser" for trying to get a fight in Faction Warfare..

Sure, its all numbers. Spreadsheets in space and all that.

My cloaky farmer alt sits in a Medium plex for 18 min. A WT comes to the activation gate so I cloak up. Currently if he wants to cap the plex he has to sit in the plex for the base time of the plex as well as the 18 minutes that my cloaky farmer sat there. All we are asking for is that if the person that was running the plex bails or cloaks the timer goes back to the base time of the plex.

This will reduce the impact the cloaky farmers have on the warzone without stopping them from being able to plex as well as insentivize them to stay and actually fight for the plex that they have invested 18 minutes into.

You sound as if you do not want this change. Why is that?

I'm not sure that I do object to something like that change on those grounds, although I would probably be inclined to support not a timer roll-back but independent faction timers. Bailing out should be an option (a tactical withdrawal is a perfectly valid tactic in warfare, as is skirmishing and harassment without committing to full combat) and I don't see why the enemy bringing something you can't beat should always undo all the work you have done. On the other hand, I also don't see why the work you have done should add to the burden of the opposition. Whichever side gets their independent timer to the target first would suit me. What I don't like is the idea that the defenders shouldn't actually have to cap the plex and that they should be able to just roll around driving out the opposition who are trying to do the grunt work without having to do any of the tedious stuff themselves.

I'll wait for some quotes from CCP that "Factional Warfare plexes are explicitly meant to facilitate PvP combat". I'll wait for any quote from CCP, actually, that's contrary to the idea that FW is a mix of PvE and PvP.

The problem is that no one has actually made a compelling case that establishes that there is a real problem. All we have heard is that people doing this stuff means that you guys have to actually cap plexes when you don't want to do so. Farmers can be killed or driven off without much difficulty. You can hold your plexes against them without much difficulty. Where is the problem? Well, the problem is that you don't want to do the necessary things, not that you can't.

As I see it, the current issue is not the mechanics, it's that you are faced at the moment with an overwhelming numerical superiority. Don't get me wrong - that absolutely sucks. But it does not mean that the mechanics you identify are broken. You are trying to hold the line against much higher numbers and that means you have to work much harder to do so if you want to maintain control. That is leading to burnout among some players who just don't enjoy doing what is needed to counter the enemy's tactics.

Now, there might be an argument to be had about balancing things when faced with a major numerical imbalance on one side of the war but that would be a different discussion. The topics that have been picked up on here, i.e. stabbed or cloaky farmers, already have direct counters and what is being argued for is a change in the rules so that you don't have to counter them because you don't enjoy doing so. If you frame the real issue honestly and acknowledge that what you object to is being swarmed by a numerically superior force and that you don't think that should be possible in the FW environment then there is the chance for a decent conversation. But currently what are being trotted out are a load of canards backed up by misleading statements.

So, basically, OP is raging at the fact that he can't catch those nasty, stabbed farmers? And he's saying that QCATS has never --- NEVER--- done any farming (and doesn't to this day)? Or is he saying that he wants a nice place to do so without bothering with anyone bugging his farming?

Goonies are so much better at this trolling; QCATS really needs to learn how to do it from them.

Changes like you proposed would raise the barrier of entry for actual new subscribers, making them potentially not want to participate.

Factional WAR fare is itself pretty self-explinatory. However, for the thicker ones like you:

FW plexes are all about PVP, this isn't even open to discussion.

Why are you speaking in third person, when you can address me directly?

No, I'm asking for a fix to FW so that we aren't forced to chase stabbed cloaky farmers.

Please quote the part where I said that QCATS has never NEVER farmed,

Also quote the part where I wanted a nice place to farm in peace.

You do sound like a ******** little troll, but you can get a second chance.

I'm not sure that I do object to something like that change on those grounds, although I would probably be inclined to support not a timer roll-back but independent faction timers. Bailing out should be an option (a tactical withdrawal is a perfectly valid tactic in warfare, as is skirmishing and harassment without committing to full combat) and I don't see why the enemy bringing something you can't beat should always undo all the work you have done. On the other hand, I also don't see why the work you have done should add to the burden of the opposition. Whichever side gets their independent timer to the target first would suit me. What I don't like is the idea that the defenders shouldn't actually have to cap the plex and that they should be able to just roll around driving out the opposition who are trying to do the grunt work without having to do any of the tedious stuff themselves.

People whining that they want "timer rollbacks" - this mechanic already exists, it's called defensive plexing.

Really the entire "rollback" argument boils down to this: a spirit of spitefulness because some people are mad that someone else refused to engage in Space Bushido.

CCP - please stop forcing QQCats to chase cloaky stabbed farmers. This is a sandbox for Christ's sake!

Happy that you agree with us <3

Yeah well, it is. And you just got smacked, son.

I'm sorry little miss but you asked for CCP quotes, and got served.

you can show a CCP quote that proves they intended plexes to be safe PVE with high end payouts that affects WZ control, and maybe then we can discuss this again with you.

The problem with not having something like timer rollback is that it gives a huge disadvantage to the defender in his home system.

if the attacker plexes for 10 minutes in a 15minute capture plex in a low/non contested system then the defender has to deplex for 25 minutes to close that plex out for pretty much no lp.

Meanwhile the farmer has moved to the next plex and has started plexing that 15 minutes or even 20 minute plex.

Either the defender deplexes or he gives chase to get rid of the farmer

If he deplexes the farmer wins the other plex and starts another one on top of that.

If he doesn't the farmer just returns and finishes off the last few minutes and wins.

If he gives chase it involves a pretty ****** PvP fit to beat the guy especially around novices and smalls where you can't get the high alpha ships you need to be able to take them out without scrams coming out of the proverbial....

Wouldn't the consequence of timer rollbacks be that one guy in a Dramiel (or most any other faction frigate) would be able to defend about ten systems from all solo T1 frigs? Basically, if the timer rolled back each time it would mean that anyone in a ship superior to a T1 frig could push any solo guys out of several plexes every single minute just by patrolling them and in a fast ship would be able to continually reset the timers in many systems. T1 frigs would be pretty much useless and bringing a bigger or better ship than a solo plexer would always be sufficient to secure as many timers as the bigger ship could reach within the countdown window. I just can't see that being viable.

Wouldn't the consequence of timer rollbacks be that one guy in a Dramiel (or most any other faction frigate) would be able to defend about ten systems from all solo T1 frigs? Basically, if the timer rolled back each time it would mean that anyone in a ship superior to a T1 frig could push any solo guys out of several plexes every single minute just by patrolling them and in a fast ship would be able to continually reset the timers in many systems. T1 frigs would be pretty much useless and bringing a bigger or better ship than a solo plexer would always be sufficient to secure as many timers as the bigger ship could reach within the countdown window. I just can't see that being viable.

Yeah but if there are 10 people in 10 plexes they should be able to take a dramiel don't you think? Maybe if they you know teamed up?

You are absolutely correct.

Basically very little farming would actually get done beyond a few people baiting for fights in plexes. This would have two outcomes:

1. There would be less ISK made, and people would start abandoning FW because it would become too expensive.
2. The warzone would barely move.

The net result: these same people who are QQcatting about farming would then be QQcatting about system control and lack of targets.

The warzone WOULD move however it will move due to pushes by people willing to engage in PvP and make the strategic moves not to whoever the famers are farming for this month.

Oh cool - then the Dramiel pilot wouldn't even have to warp into 10 plexes in order to rollback 10 plexes!

Oh cool - then the Dramiel pilot wouldn't even have to warp into 10 plexes in order to rollback 10 plexes!

If those people all systematically took and held plexes and fought to hold them there wouldn't be any rollback....

If those people all systematically took and held plexes and fought to hold them there wouldn't be any rollback....

Only if they make the strategic decision to actively engage the Darmiel pilot together. Then it is a choice of killing the dram and rerunning the timers with all of them, a select few of them, or playing avoidance games (warping around to 10 plexes and activating the gate takes time).

Also, I generally don't think the best implementation would be instant rollbacks of the timer as soon as someone cloaks or warps out of the plex because of this scenario. I think it should start counting back to the original time at an enhanced rate (10 seconds for ever 1 or so) until it reaches its base timer). But that is really more of tweaking the idea than tossing the idea out itself.

Why are you against timer rollbacks?