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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
963
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Posted - 2013.12.19 23:52:00 -
[1] - Quote
TL;DR - Ditch Caldari kinetic-specific damage bonuses.
Caldari is continually the only race still relegated to kinetic-specific missile damage bonuses for many of its hulls. This is not the case for any other race, who typically receive generic damage bonuses that apply to any type. With few exceptions, Caldari ships don't even rank in the Top 10 picks for any specific hull size or category. So this is a simple and straightforward petition:
GÇó Nighthawk receives 7.5% bonus to Heavy Assault and Heavy Missile Damage GÇó Drake receives 10% bonus to Heavy Missile and Heavy Assault Damage GÇó Tengu receives 5% bonus to Missile Damage on the Accelerated Ejection Bay GÇó Cerberus receives 5% bonus to Missile Damage GÇó Onyx receives 5% bonus to Missile Damage GÇó Osprey Navy receives a 10% bonus to Missile Damage GÇó Corax receives 5% bonus to Light Missile and Rocket Damage GÇó Hawk receives 10% bonus to Missile Damage GÇó Buzzard receives 5% bonus to Missile Damage GÇó Crow receives 10% bonus to Missile Damage GÇó Hookbill Navy receives 20% bonus to Missile Damage GÇó Condor receives 10% bonus to Light Missile and Rocket Damage
I think that's it. Oh, I missed one...
GÇó Phoenix receives 5% bonus to Missile Damage I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
2034
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Posted - 2013.12.20 00:00:00 -
[2] - Quote
What buff will amarr and gallente gunboats, and T2 projectile ammo, receive to go along with this? They're all limited in damage types too... |
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
375
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Posted - 2013.12.20 00:01:00 -
[3] - Quote
Actually, only the minmatar get a bonus to all types of damage.
Amarr only get em/thermal bonuses, gallente only get kin/therm. Yes, they both get drones, but you're either using thermal for nearly everything pve, or getting laughed at for using a drone carrier in pvp. |
Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
963
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Posted - 2013.12.20 00:04:00 -
[4] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:What buff will amarr and gallente gunboats, and T2 projectile ammo, receive to go along with this? They're all limited in damage types too... Why does every turret player have to attempt to hijack missile threads? Put your proposal forward on its own merits and stop piggybacking on these. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Astroniomix
Cryptic Meta-4
733
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Posted - 2013.12.20 00:11:00 -
[5] - Quote
Dorian Wylde wrote:Actually, only the minmatar get a bonus to all types of damage.
Amarr only get em/thermal bonuses, gallente only get kin/therm. Yes, they both get drones, but you're either using thermal for nearly everything pve, or getting laughed at for using a drone carrier in pvp. Drone carriers are doing VERY well in PVP atm. But even they only use therm or explosive. |
Seranova Farreach
510
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Posted - 2013.12.20 00:15:00 -
[6] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:What buff will amarr and gallente gunboats, and T2 projectile ammo, receive to go along with this? They're all limited in damage types too...
they already had their buffs while missles continuously get nerfed _______________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg
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Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
2035
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Posted - 2013.12.20 00:16:00 -
[7] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Danika Princip wrote:What buff will amarr and gallente gunboats, and T2 projectile ammo, receive to go along with this? They're all limited in damage types too... Why does every turret player have to attempt to hijack missile threads? Put your proposal forward on its own merits.
What does that even mean? You're asking for a race to no-longer be reliant on one damage type. I am asking you what the other three races, all of which are reliant on one or two damage types, would get to balance the scales. |
Seranova Farreach
511
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Posted - 2013.12.20 00:17:00 -
[8] - Quote
Astroniomix wrote:Dorian Wylde wrote:Actually, only the minmatar get a bonus to all types of damage.
Amarr only get em/thermal bonuses, gallente only get kin/therm. Yes, they both get drones, but you're either using thermal for nearly everything pve, or getting laughed at for using a drone carrier in pvp. Drone carriers are doing VERY well in PVP atm. But even they only use therm or explosive.
explosive usually to take advantage of the explosive hole when they get a ship into armor, harder if its bricktanked ofc. _______________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg
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Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
964
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Posted - 2013.12.20 00:25:00 -
[9] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:What does that even mean? You're asking for a race to no-longer be reliant on one damage type. I am asking you what the other three races, all of which are reliant on one or two damage types, would get to balance the scales. What do gunnery ammunition bonuses have to do with kinetic-specific bonuses? About as much bearing as the price of Fedos in Jita. But since you specifically asked... Gallente have drones which can apply multiple damage types, and have a comparable number of hybrid-only hulls to the Caldari... Minmatar can apply any damage type with projectiles, missiles or drones... The only race that is somewhat hamstrung is the Amarr, and I'm not entirely sure how to address that beyond expanding the number of missile ships or giving them some additional ammunition (neither of which I'm opposed to). I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Astroniomix
Cryptic Meta-4
733
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 00:25:00 -
[10] - Quote
Seranova Farreach wrote:Astroniomix wrote:Dorian Wylde wrote:Actually, only the minmatar get a bonus to all types of damage.
Amarr only get em/thermal bonuses, gallente only get kin/therm. Yes, they both get drones, but you're either using thermal for nearly everything pve, or getting laughed at for using a drone carrier in pvp. Drone carriers are doing VERY well in PVP atm. But even they only use therm or explosive. explosive usually to take advantage of the explosive hole when they get a ship into armor, harder if its bricktanked ofc. No, explosive is minmatar drones which are for catching frigates (warriors). Pretty much every other situation galente drones come out ahead because of raw damage output. (sentries also see a little bit of variation depending on the range, but medium and heavy drones it's galente or GTFO) |
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Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
2036
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Posted - 2013.12.20 00:32:00 -
[11] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Danika Princip wrote:What does that even mean? You're asking for a race to no-longer be reliant on one damage type. I am asking you what the other three races, all of which are reliant on one or two damage types, would get to balance the scales. What do gunnery ammunition bonuses have to do with kinetic-specific bonuses? About as much bearing as the price of Fedos in Jita. But since you specifically asked... Gallente have drones which can apply multiple damage types, and have a comparable number of hybrid-only hulls to the Caldari... Minmatar can apply any damage type with projectiles, missiles or drones... The only race that is somewhat hamstrung is the Amarr, and I'm not entirely sure how to address that beyond expanding the number of missile ships or giving them some additional ammunition (neither of which I'm opposed to).
So...the vast majority of caldari hulls should have true damage type selection with no drawbacks whatsoever, wheras the only other race that can come close is minmatarr using faction ammo...(You do know that T2 projectile ammo is all explosive/kinetic, right? And drones can be shot down fairly easily...) And the reason for this is...? |
Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
967
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Posted - 2013.12.20 00:40:00 -
[12] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:So...the vast majority of caldari hulls should have true damage type selection with no drawbacks whatsoever, wheras the only other race that can come close is minmatarr using faction ammo...(You do know that T2 projectile ammo is all explosive/kinetic, right? And drones can be shot down fairly easily...) And the reason for this is...? Yes, because shield-based hulls and missiles with time-to-impact delays don't offer any drawbacks at all. That's why everywhere I look, Caldari hulls dot the horizon... Are you seriously trying to convince me that most players use T2 ammunition for PvP? Your only argument for why this change shouldn't be considered is... "because".
Because Gallente can use hybrids and drones, so they're not really limited... Because Minmatar can use missiles, projectiles and drones - applying any damage type... Because Amarr... well, as I already indicated - not entirely sure what to do there. Come up with an interesting proposal and I'll support it. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
2037
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 00:50:00 -
[13] - Quote
I'm not coming up with a rpoposal though, that's not what this thread is about. It's about the discussion of YOUR proposal, so coming back with 'Well you say somethign better then' is kind of worthless.
Caldari hulls have drones, and they have gunboats too. And drones, outside of sentries, kind of suck in PVP anyway.
T2 ammo has it's niche, and if rage missiles were available in all flavours on all caldari hulls, guess what kind of ammo would get used in them in PVP?
Hell, you can already use any damage type in a caldari missile hull, you just don't get the bonus. Gallente and Amarr are locked on EM/Therm, they cannot do another damage type with thier guns.
If you want the damage type restriction removed, either propose buffs to the other guys to make up for it, or propose a different drawback. |
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
257
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Posted - 2013.12.20 00:56:00 -
[14] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote: Caldari hulls have drones
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Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
968
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Posted - 2013.12.20 01:01:00 -
[15] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:If you want the damage type restriction removed, either propose buffs to the other guys to make up for it, or propose a different drawback. I don't have to... Missiles are already at a disadvantage, otherwise they'd be dominating fleet actions and kill mails. I mean, everyone uses Phoenix dreadnaughts...
I know, right? Those Caldari droneships are a real menace! I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Iudicium Vastus
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
184
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Posted - 2013.12.20 04:20:00 -
[16] - Quote
Things like Amarr and Gallente have no damage type bonus because they're perma-locked in those ranges. They get the flat 'turret rate of fire/damage' bonuses because we already know what they're gonna do. Tons of EM for amarr (with some thermal) and Thermal for Gallente (with some kinetic). While most ammo in Projectile is rather all over the place, the T2 ammo is all distinctly explosive heavy.
Giving Caldari general damage bonuses on such a wide scale is just an across-the-board buff.
Gee, and I thought people were supposed cry over when things get more generalized and made the same. But anytime the Caldari damage bonuses come up, people chime for homogenization, giving up the racial flavors. Nerf stabs/cloaks in FW? No, just.. -Fit more points -Fit faction points -Bring a friend or two with points (an alt is fine too) |
Drake Doe
SVER Bloodpack Insidious Empire
300
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Posted - 2013.12.20 04:26:00 -
[17] - Quote
Dorian Wylde wrote:Actually, only the minmatar get a bonus to all types of damage.
Amarr only get em/thermal bonuses, gallente only get kin/therm. Yes, they both get drones, but you're either using thermal for nearly everything pve, or getting laughed at for using a drone carrier in pvp. That is true until you take a look at projectile t2 ammo, which doesn't get the flexibility of t2 missile ammo. "The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! *pops more corn*" ---Evernub-- |
HiddenPorpoise
BG-1 The Craniac
137
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Posted - 2013.12.20 04:59:00 -
[18] - Quote
Wouldn't it be more important to make missiles suck less instead? Minmatar missile ships usually get damage selection but don't have as much raw dps. Giving Caldari ships damage selection means they would be nerfed. |
Daenika
MMO-Mechanics.com
14
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Posted - 2013.12.20 05:04:00 -
[19] - Quote
To be fair, not *all* Amarr boats are laser. There are a number of them that use predominantly drones (which can use any) or missiles. Specifically, the Vengeance, Malediction, Heretic, Sacrilege, Legion (with Assault Optimization), and Damnation all primarily use and receive bonuses to missile damage. In addition, the Magnate, Anathema, Dragoon, Arbitrator, Curse, Prophecy, and Armageddon all have at least as many launcher hardpoints as turrets, and receive no specific bonuses to any turrets (and all of them except the Magnate and Anathema instead receive bonuses to drones). I'm intentionally excluding the Purifier, as it's obviously irrelevant.
That's a fair amount of missile-oriented ships, and not a single one of them has an EM focus (the Purifier being the only Amarr ship that has an EM exclusive bonus). Minmatar are the same way, the only ship of theirs that has an explosive-specific launcher bonus is the Hound.
So yes, every single race has a secondary option for weapon systems that allow omni damage types on a fair number of their hulls. Minmatar have that innately with faction ammo on projectiles, as well as their non-typed missile bonuses. Gallente have drones. Amarr have missiles and drones. Caldari...have hybrids, which allow thermal in addition to their base kinetic, that's it.
Basically, it just flat makes sense to remove the restriction to kinetic damage. |
Omega Crendraven
Nennamaila TASK FORCE 1337
122
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Posted - 2013.12.20 05:09:00 -
[20] - Quote
This has been already presented by DHB Wildcat, minnie boats can choose damage types. I don't see why caldari shouldn't Nennamaila TASK FORCE 133.7 Nevher ferget
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Humang
Sefem Velox Swift Angels Alliance
39
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Posted - 2013.12.20 05:14:00 -
[21] - Quote
I would point out the fact that one of the main features of missile weapon systems is being able to select damage type, along with a myriad of other pros & cons.I agree that it does seem kind of redundant to give a faction such a flexible weapon, but then limit them to a single damage type.
Missiles in general are not where they should be; capital missiles are a joke, light missiles are a bit OP, heavy missiles have no damage application (or damage at all for that matter), and people are conflicted on torps and cruise.
As a note, there is already a thread up about fixing missiles. Witty Comment Here |
elitatwo
Congregatio
181
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Posted - 2013.12.20 05:15:00 -
[22] - Quote
Iudicium Vastus wrote:Things like Amarr and Gallente have no damage type bonus because they're perma-locked in those ranges. They get the flat 'turret rate of fire/damage' bonuses because we already know what they're gonna do. Tons of EM for amarr (with some thermal) and Thermal for Gallente (with some kinetic). While most ammo in Projectile is rather all over the place, the T2 ammo is all distinctly explosive heavy.
Giving Caldari general damage bonuses on such a wide scale is just an across-the-board buff.
Gee, and I thought people were supposed cry over when things get more generalized and made the same. But anytime the Caldari damage bonuses come up, people chime for homogenization, giving up the racial flavors.
My Sacrilege and my Vengeance tend to disagree with you here and my Prophecy also likes missiles alot, any damage will do.
Maybe some other fact might be of interest for you, tech2 blaster ammo does kinetic and thermal damage in an 1:1 ratio. signature |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
3820
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Posted - 2013.12.20 05:50:00 -
[23] - Quote
Daenika wrote:To be fair, not *all* Amarr boats are laser. There are a number of them that use predominantly drones (which can use any) or missiles. Specifically, the Vengeance, Malediction, Heretic, Sacrilege, Legion (with Assault Optimization), and Damnation all primarily use and receive bonuses to missile damage. In addition, the Magnate, Anathema, Dragoon, Arbitrator, Curse, Prophecy, and Armageddon all have at least as many launcher hardpoints as turrets, and receive no specific bonuses to any turrets (and all of them except the Magnate and Anathema instead receive bonuses to drones). I'm intentionally excluding the Purifier, as it's obviously irrelevant.
That's a fair amount of missile-oriented ships, and not a single one of them has an EM focus (the Purifier being the only Amarr ship that has an EM exclusive bonus). Minmatar are the same way, the only ship of theirs that has an explosive-specific launcher bonus is the Hound.
So yes, every single race has a secondary option for weapon systems that allow omni damage types on a fair number of their hulls. Minmatar have that innately with faction ammo on projectiles, as well as their non-typed missile bonuses. Gallente have drones. Amarr have missiles and drones. Caldari...have hybrids, which allow thermal in addition to their base kinetic, that's it.
Basically, it just flat makes sense to remove the restriction to kinetic damage. You bring up a fair point...
BUT
Bear in mind that the missile ships which are not restricted by damage type tend to have less launchers than their Caldari missile-boat counterparts (the idea is that they deal less damage overall, but can target the resistance hole).
Honestly though... this isn't going to happen. - CCP is big on "racial flavor" - Outside of drones (which is a moot argument for a number of reasons*) 3 out of the 4 races are pretty much locked into a certain damage dealing profile unless they are willing to give up raw DPS numbers to compensate (which the Minmatar do overall as projectile weapons operate primarily in falloff range... which means they are always dealing less than their "on-paper" damage).
*The drone argument is silly because... - all ships larger than cruisers can use them to varying degrees (so at that level and above everyone has the same options). - outside of sentry drones, you ALWAYS use Minmatar drones and/or Gallente drones (for speed/tracking and damage respectively). No ifs, ands, or buts. Using Caldari or Amarr drones is just sub-par in every respect. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Daenika
MMO-Mechanics.com
14
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Posted - 2013.12.20 06:08:00 -
[24] - Quote
Quote:- Outside of drones (which is a moot argument for a number of reasons*) 3 out of the 4 races are pretty much locked into a certain damage dealing profile unless they are willing to give up raw DPS numbers to compensate (which the Minmatar do overall as projectile weapons operate primarily in falloff range... which means they are always dealing less than their "on-paper" damage).
Which is precisely why I tend to favor what they started to do with a couple Caldari hulls: large bonus to kinetic missile damage, half that bonus to all other types. Still lose damage by going non-racial damage type, but it's not nearly as severe as it currently is.
That said, there's a stiff difference between being able to field 2-4 light drones, and being able to field an entire flight of mediums (or 3-5 sentries). Caldari ships tend toward the former, Amarr and Gallente towards the latter, as drones are their secondary "weapon system". The Prophecy, for example, can field 3 sentries or a full flight of medium drones. The Myrmidon can field 4 sentries, or a flight of mediums (or 4 heavy drones, if any actually ever uses those). The Drake, on the other hand, can field a maximum of 5 light drones, 2 medium drones, or a single sentry drone.
Similar on the other of the pair for BCs. Harbinger can field 50 Mb/s. Brutix is 50. Ferox is 25. Even the Hurricane and Cyclone can field more (30 and 50, respectively).
Caldari have without a doubt least options when it comes to drones, and yet have arguably the most crippling of damage restrictions (predominantly Kinetic, some thermal mixed in for their limited hybrid boats). Amarr has EM/Thermal primary, large drone bandwidth secondary (and the drone bays to back that), and any tertiary on their limited missile boats. Gallente has Kinetic/Thermal primary, large drone bandwidth secondary (even larger than Amarr, on average), and no real tertiary. Minmatar have any on their primary, any on their secondary, and moderate drone coverage.
Giving Caldari more options on their primary makes sense. They are very easily the most type-locked of the races, even if you take into account the usual preference for Minmatar and Gallente drones (though changing drones types is a lot less crippling, in general, for a drone boat than changing missile damage types is for a Caldari missile hull). |
Jax Slizard
Celerna
33
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Posted - 2013.12.20 06:10:00 -
[25] - Quote
For everyone asking for a boost to their race to compensate for Caldari getting an omni damage bonus how about:
Take every damage bonus on every ship. Replace it with a damage bonus only to racial damage type.
Congratulations Minnes, you can select different damage profile ammo, but you only get a bonus to the explosive component.
Amarrians, you do extra EM damage (great, huh).
Gallente-people, + therm. (so much for warrior IIs)
I'd be perfectly happy with Caldari missile boats only getting + racial damage as long as everyone agrees that the balancing theory behind it is sound enough to apply it to every weapon system (drones included)... |
Meyr
SiN Corp Black Core Alliance
158
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Posted - 2013.12.20 06:45:00 -
[26] - Quote
Caldari get more launchers and a larger bonus in order to compensate for limiting their optimal damage type.
Do the math, and figure out how many EFFECTIVE TURRETS/LAUNCHERS a hull class has.
The Drake, with six launchers, and a 50% bonus, equals NINE effective turrets.
I'm on my iPad, so I don't have access to all of the hull bonuses, but I'm certain someone can make a quick chart. |
HiddenPorpoise
BG-1 The Craniac
137
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Posted - 2013.12.20 07:02:00 -
[27] - Quote
Meyr wrote:I'm on my iPad, so I don't have access to all of the hull bonuses, but I'm certain someone can make a quick chart. Drake gets 9 kin locked or 6 free type Cyclone gets 6.25 free type
I think they can manage. |
Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill
74
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Posted - 2013.12.20 07:38:00 -
[28] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:TL;DR - Ditch Caldari kinetic-specific damage bonuses.
Caldari is continually the only race still relegated to kinetic-specific missile damage bonuses for many of its hulls. This is not the case for any other race, who typically receive generic damage bonuses that apply to any type. With few exceptions, Caldari ships don't even rank in the Top 10 picks for any specific hull size or category. So this is a simple and straightforward petition:
GÇó Nighthawk receives 7.5% bonus to Heavy Assault and Heavy Missile Damage GÇó Drake receives 10% bonus to Heavy Missile and Heavy Assault Damage GÇó Tengu receives 5% bonus to Missile Damage on the Accelerated Ejection Bay GÇó Cerberus receives 5% bonus to Missile Damage GÇó Onyx receives 5% bonus to Missile Damage GÇó Osprey Navy receives a 10% bonus to Missile Damage GÇó Corax receives 5% bonus to Light Missile and Rocket Damage GÇó Hawk receives 10% bonus to Missile Damage GÇó Buzzard receives 5% bonus to Missile Damage GÇó Crow receives 10% bonus to Missile Damage GÇó Hookbill Navy receives 20% bonus to Missile Damage GÇó Condor receives 10% bonus to Light Missile and Rocket Damage
I think that's it. Oh, I missed one...
GÇó Phoenix receives 5% bonus to Missile Damage
Sorry have you even looked at the stats of your ships? You either have no idea what are you talking about are you are deliberately requesting an undeserved buff, while offering no penalties.
1) Caldarii ships can fire all missiles not only kinetic. With resist hole on some ships it's much better than a bonus damage. Both amarr and gallente don't have that luxury.
2) Compared to other missile ships (amarr) caldari get much better bonuses to their damage. Moreover T2 ships who have 2 dmg bonuses get one bonus to ALL dmg types, and the other specifically to kinetic. Legion with HAMs gets +10% dmg to all missiles, while tengu gets +5% dmg to all types AND +7,5% RoF to kinetic. Not only your kinetic dmg is insane, but you also get decent dmg to other dmg types.
3) If what you say should be even considered you should at least offer some kind of penalty for that buff.
Bottom line the problem is that missiles suck at the moment but that is a different problem. For me, even though I fly caldari a lot the OP is rubbish. Massive kinetic bonuses + ability to use unbounded other dmg types is a nice trade off and should stick with caldari. Fix missiles instead.
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Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
973
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Posted - 2013.12.20 07:46:00 -
[29] - Quote
Cassius Invictus wrote:Fix missiles instead. Yes, because we've seen how well that worked out for heavy missiles and rapid light missile launchers... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
To mare
Advanced Technology
292
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Posted - 2013.12.20 07:52:00 -
[30] - Quote
Dorian Wylde wrote:Actually, only the minmatar get a bonus to all types of damage.
to all except kinetic if we speak about gunboats |
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