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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation
Goonswarm Federation
8078
   |
Posted - 2014.01.04 03:00:00 -
[91] - Quote
Alice Ituin wrote:It's amazing how many of those "YOLO, EvE is PVP! HTFU" type of players are unable to think past their F1 button. Kagura Nikon wrote:Meyr wrote:
NO ONE can pay for their PVP by only doing PVP. Your SRP is paid for by corp or alliance taxes, which, ultimately, are generated by PVE. Your Faction Warfare ships are paid for by the PVE portion of FW, not just by 'pew-pew.'
.
You so completely and utterly wrong. No, he is not. You just misunderstand his point. Of course it's possible for a group or an individual to fund themselves with PvP activities. BUT: You only take assets from other players - assets which have to come from somewhere. PvP doesn't create any ships or modules, it destroys them. If no one would do PvE anymore then eventually we would all be fighting each other in noobships.
That wasn't his point. You just made a different one. But he explicitly said "No one can pay for PVP by doing only PVP" which is indeed patently false.
Latest video - Pandemic Legion titan and supers killed |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6071
|
Posted - 2014.01.04 03:24:00 -
[92] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Alice Ituin wrote:It's amazing how many of those "YOLO, EvE is PVP! HTFU" type of players are unable to think past their F1 button. Kagura Nikon wrote:Meyr wrote:
NO ONE can pay for their PVP by only doing PVP. Your SRP is paid for by corp or alliance taxes, which, ultimately, are generated by PVE. Your Faction Warfare ships are paid for by the PVE portion of FW, not just by 'pew-pew.'
.
You so completely and utterly wrong. No, he is not. You just misunderstand his point. Of course it's possible for a group or an individual to fund themselves with PvP activities. BUT: You only take assets from other players - assets which have to come from somewhere. PvP doesn't create any ships or modules, it destroys them. If no one would do PvE anymore then eventually we would all be fighting each other in noobships. That wasn't his point. You just made a different one. But he explicitly said "No one can pay for PVP by doing only PVP" which is indeed patently false.
what he meant was actually not everyone can pay for pvp by pvp? or something?
And thus, eve is pve
^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears.
Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers. |
I am disposable
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
27
|
Posted - 2014.01.04 03:25:00 -
[93] - Quote
Meyr wrote:Sorry - I don't count ganking as PVP - it's a PK activity, pure and simple.
That stated, what else do you term as 'PVP paying for itself?'
Well there goes 90% of PVP in this game... |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6071
|
Posted - 2014.01.04 03:25:00 -
[94] - Quote
As long as someone somewhere has to mine a rock or shoot a red plus
eve is pve
Amazing,.
^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears.
Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6071
|
Posted - 2014.01.04 03:26:00 -
[95] - Quote
I am disposable wrote:Meyr wrote:Sorry - I don't count ganking as PVP - it's a PK activity, pure and simple.
That stated, what else do you term as 'PVP paying for itself?' Well there goes 90% of PVP in this game...
shaddap everyone knows ganking isn't pvp
this is general discussion
^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears.
Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
4349
|
Posted - 2014.01.04 03:31:00 -
[96] - Quote
ZynnLee Akkori wrote:Ganking is the same thing as the 'knock out game'. Prepared aggressor against an unprepared victim. There is no honor there.
Except they're not that same at all. One case is emergent gameplay in a computer game. The other is attempting to kill a random stranger for street cred.
This user won the forums on 18/09/2013, then lost on 18/12/2013. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6071
|
Posted - 2014.01.04 03:32:00 -
[97] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:ZynnLee Akkori wrote:Ganking is the same thing as the 'knock out game'. Prepared aggressor against an unprepared victim. There is no honor there. Except they're not that same at all. One case is emergent gameplay in a computer game. The other is attempting to kill a random stranger for street cred.
i bet you gank
^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears.
Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
4349
|
Posted - 2014.01.04 03:35:00 -
[98] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:ZynnLee Akkori wrote:Ganking is the same thing as the 'knock out game'. Prepared aggressor against an unprepared victim. There is no honor there. Except they're not that same at all. One case is emergent gameplay in a computer game. The other is attempting to kill a random stranger for street cred. i bet you gank
If ZynnLee Akkori is to be believed, I also roam the streets murdering innocent people for street cred.
This user won the forums on 18/09/2013, then lost on 18/12/2013. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6071
|
Posted - 2014.01.04 03:38:00 -
[99] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:ZynnLee Akkori wrote:Ganking is the same thing as the 'knock out game'. Prepared aggressor against an unprepared victim. There is no honor there. Except they're not that same at all. One case is emergent gameplay in a computer game. The other is attempting to kill a random stranger for street cred. i bet you gank If ZynnLee Akkori is to be believed, I also roam the streets murdering innocent people for street cred.
sociopath
eve online ill needs a "pvp"er such as you !
^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears.
Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation
Goonswarm Federation
8081
|
Posted - 2014.01.04 03:39:00 -
[100] - Quote
ZynnLee Akkori wrote:Ganking is the same thing as the 'knock out game'. Prepared aggressor against an unprepared victim. There is no honor there.
Why is one of the most complex and difficult to learn MMOs out there full of complete idiots who believe **** like this?
I don't get it.
Latest video - Pandemic Legion titan and supers killed |
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6071
|
Posted - 2014.01.04 03:48:00 -
[101] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:ZynnLee Akkori wrote:Ganking is the same thing as the 'knock out game'. Prepared aggressor against an unprepared victim. There is no honor there. Why is one of the most complex and difficult to learn MMOs out there full of complete idiots who believe **** like this? I don't get it.
because they got ganked and want to believe it is only because the ganker was a bad guy
so they can feel better
^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears.
Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers. |
Deunan Tenephais
60
|
Posted - 2014.01.04 03:52:00 -
[102] - Quote
Frankly there is no need for "honor", it's supposed to be piracy, not chivalry.
Perhaps saying there is a lack of ambition is more apt to define ganking. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
4349
|
Posted - 2014.01.04 03:57:00 -
[103] - Quote
Deunan Tenephais wrote:Frankly there is no need for "honor", it's supposed to be piracy, not chivalry.
Perhaps saying there is a lack of ambition is more apt to define ganking.
Gankers tend to be pretty ambitious, but of course, nowhere near as ambitious as the mission runners & miners who aspire to do nothing & want zero contact with people.
This user won the forums on 18/09/2013, then lost on 18/12/2013. |
Ludi Burek
Toilet Emergency
JIHADASQUAD
292
|
Posted - 2014.01.04 03:58:00 -
[104] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:ZynnLee Akkori wrote:Ganking is the same thing as the 'knock out game'. Prepared aggressor against an unprepared victim. There is no honor there. Why is one of the most complex and difficult to learn MMOs out there full of complete idiots who believe **** like this? I don't get it.
Wait, does this mean "eve is idiots"? |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6071
|
Posted - 2014.01.04 04:00:00 -
[105] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Deunan Tenephais wrote:Frankly there is no need for "honor", it's supposed to be piracy, not chivalry.
Perhaps saying there is a lack of ambition is more apt to define ganking. Gankers tend to be pretty ambitious, but of course, nowhere near as ambitious as the mission runners & miners who aspire to do nothing & want zero contact with people.
CCP can make that come true.
^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears.
Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation
Goonswarm Federation
8083
|
Posted - 2014.01.04 04:14:00 -
[106] - Quote
Ludi Burek wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:ZynnLee Akkori wrote:Ganking is the same thing as the 'knock out game'. Prepared aggressor against an unprepared victim. There is no honor there. Why is one of the most complex and difficult to learn MMOs out there full of complete idiots who believe **** like this? I don't get it. Wait, does this mean "eve is idiots"?
Spend some more time on GD and your question will be answered.
Latest video - Pandemic Legion titan and supers killed |
Deunan Tenephais
60
|
Posted - 2014.01.04 04:16:00 -
[107] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Deunan Tenephais wrote:Frankly there is no need for "honor", it's supposed to be piracy, not chivalry.
Perhaps saying there is a lack of ambition is more apt to define ganking. Gankers tend to be pretty ambitious, but of course, nowhere near as ambitious as the mission runners & miners who aspire to do nothing & want zero contact with people.
You think that waiting for people to change system at the chokepoints and taking whatever morsel fate throw your way is ambitious ?
At least miners and missioners go after their roids and their NPCs, even if it is arid, it's still something.
By ambition I mean going after the big fishes, proactively, not waiting for newbies who think they can do their missions in a lowsec system at the border with high sec. |
Poison Dagger
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
5
|
Posted - 2014.01.04 04:27:00 -
[108] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:ZynnLee Akkori wrote:Ganking is the same thing as the 'knock out game'. Prepared aggressor against an unprepared victim. There is no honor there. Why is one of the most complex and difficult to learn MMOs out there full of complete idiots who believe **** like this? I don't get it.
Agreed.
What some people have a hard time grasping is that, regardless of how you choose to play the game, be it pve, economic warfare, diplomacy or role play, Eve is permeated with PVP. It is intrinsic to the game's styled core. A miner or mission runner who strictly plays "PVE" is still subject to the environment of the game, it doesn't matter if that's all you want to do, if someone wishes to stop you it is within the EULA for them to do so if they can find a way. There is no PVE server here, there is only one server. Everyone who plays this game is simultaneously bound and unfettered by the rules.
So if the victim is unprepared that is their own fault, not the ganker's for being an opportunist. Just because a player is lazy and doesn't fully understand the practices allowed and encouraged by the game doesn't mean that they deserve special treatment. It's a sand box still and even if you want a box of cottonballs you will still always have a sandbox as long as you continue to play in one.
The dedicated PVE'er has tools to mitigate his PVP experiences and loses but if you don't use these tools, or are not adept at using them then deriding another player who has chosen to interact with you in combat (or with isk, or text), and saying that they are not engaging in PVP is pretty blockheaded.
In essence Eve is what you want it to be.. if you can pull it off. |
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
431
|
Posted - 2014.01.04 04:39:00 -
[109] - Quote
Man, what is happening to these forums when an OP like this can go without being shouted down by literally everyone who reads it. A couple years ago, this would have immediately generated hundreds of negative replies, and even CCP's devs would be writing telling the OP that he's incorrect. As anyone who's been here more than a minute should know by now: EVE is not PVE.
EVE is now, and always has been, PVP.
There are literally zero activities you can do in this game aside from ship spinning in your station that do not constitute player vs. player (pvp) interaction.
Zero.
If you trade on the market, when you adjust your buy and sell orders to beat other players' buy and sell orders, you have just competed against those other players for available resources. You beat them. PVP
If you mine in an asteroid field, you are competing with other players for the available rocks. Every rock you mine and sell affects the value of every other rock in the game - and by extension, every other player's game. PVP
Even if you mission and are all alone in your own little world, once you undock, you are providing opportunities for other players which they may or may not take advantage of. Every bounty you earn, every module you sell, every bit of salvage you collect has an effect on the value of every other bounty, module, and bit of salvage belonging to every other player. Guess what? PVP
Because of the nature of the sandbox, every action you take in this game has an effect on every other player.
Nothing you do - nothing - once you undock is not PVP. An activity doesn't have to include pulse weapons to be pvp in EVE.
And denial is not just a river in Egypt.
YK
"High-five, fist bump, explode, implode, fist bump again, under-five, up-five, chest-bump...ohhhhh....call 911!"
|
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
1342
|
Posted - 2014.01.04 04:46:00 -
[110] - Quote
Poison Dagger wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:[quote=ZynnLee Akkori]Ganking is the same thing as the 'knock out game'. Prepared aggressor against an unprepared victim. There is no honor there. So if the victim is unprepared that is their own fault, not the ganker's for being an opportunist. Just because a player is lazy and doesn't fully understand...
Unless you're in an alliance. Then when people attack your stuff you get 24+ hours notice so you can be afk, offline, asleep, sweeping your moms basement... the server will protect you by making your stuff invulnerable, yes you can leave your super floating invulnerable in your POS no worries, then when you log on you can batphone all the other basement dwellers to be on at a certain time to defend your stuff....
Sandbox my ass :)
And the last poster, no EVE has always been both a PVE game and a PVP game. When I undocked in 2003 for the first time I had both a civilian gatling gun and a civilian miner auto fitted... |
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ZynnLee Akkori
Perkone
Caldari State
23
|
Posted - 2014.01.04 05:00:00 -
[111] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:ZynnLee Akkori wrote:Ganking is the same thing as the 'knock out game'. Prepared aggressor against an unprepared victim. There is no honor there. Why is one of the most complex and difficult to learn MMOs out there full of complete idiots who believe **** like this? I don't get it.
There's obviously a lot you don't get. |
ZynnLee Akkori
Perkone
Caldari State
23
|
Posted - 2014.01.04 05:13:00 -
[112] - Quote
If the scales were at least balanced between the 2 camps, I would be less likely to bring it up.
But a pvp player gets to inflict on me their chosen 'fun' at their time and choosing. I cannot do the same to them with my chosen 'fun' activity.
The result of their 'fun' against me means I have to spend time and money to try and get back to my 'fun'. The result of my 'fun' results in no negative consequence at all on them.
The PK'er brings absolutely nothing to the game that benefits me. Not even their purchases of my goods or services is something that PVP alone can consume to my benefit.
Almost everything I do helps them in that I generate in-game things that they will find useful (like ISK, goods or services).
The scales are terribly unbalanced. Those in favor of the PK style can't have fun if I am not there as a target for their cowardly activities. I am completely capable of having fun if I never meet a single PK'er in my entire Eve career (there are lot's of PVE things to do with other PVE players!). They are just bullies, 'teaching' us how not to suck, or 'helping' us learn the game. derp!
And of course, few gankers are capable of having civil discourse, lolz. It regularly comes down to hiding behind name calling and ridicule. They won't allow that we have a legitimate gripe about Eve, whereas we are willing to compromise so that we all can have fun in game together! |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation
Goonswarm Federation
8084
|
Posted - 2014.01.04 05:30:00 -
[113] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Poison Dagger wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:[quote=ZynnLee Akkori]Ganking is the same thing as the 'knock out game'. Prepared aggressor against an unprepared victim. There is no honor there. So if the victim is unprepared that is their own fault, not the ganker's for being an opportunist. Just because a player is lazy and doesn't fully understand... Unless you're in an alliance. Then when people attack your stuff you get 24+ hours notice so you can be afk, offline, asleep, sweeping your moms basement... the server will protect you by making your stuff invulnerable, yes you can leave your super floating invulnerable in your POS no worries, then when you log on you can batphone all the other basement dwellers to be on at a certain time to defend your stuff.... Sandbox my ass :)
Don't drag your woefully poor understanding of the rationale behind game mechanics into this.
You've had this explained before to you several times. The fact that you don't get it reflects rather poorly on you. Like all of the other crusades you've made.
Latest video - Pandemic Legion titan and supers killed |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation
Goonswarm Federation
8084
|
Posted - 2014.01.04 05:32:00 -
[114] - Quote
ZynnLee Akkori wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:ZynnLee Akkori wrote:Ganking is the same thing as the 'knock out game'. Prepared aggressor against an unprepared victim. There is no honor there. Why is one of the most complex and difficult to learn MMOs out there full of complete idiots who believe **** like this? I don't get it. There's obviously a lot you don't get.
In a very general sense of things, yeah. That's life.
Regarding EVE, I "get it" a hell of a lot better than you do.
Latest video - Pandemic Legion titan and supers killed |
Snerdly Dei
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2014.01.04 05:32:00 -
[115] - Quote
Yonis Kador wrote:
Nothing you do - nothing - once you undock is not PVP. An activity doesn't have to include pulse weapons to be pvp in EVE.
And denial is not just a river in Egypt.
YK
Of course you know the difference between market pvp and getting ganked while mining in highsec, which I agree isn't really pvp. It's a little pathetic that people like to go around killing defenseless players. If they were really pvping, they would go after people who could defend themselves. They seem too think they server some kind of purpose though, so what can you do? CCP is okay with it obviously. It's their rules that the gankers hide behind as an excuse. |
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
432
|
Posted - 2014.01.04 05:40:00 -
[116] - Quote
Well ganking certainly isn't balanced pvp but rarely is pvp a balanced engagement in this game. Really I was hoping that the OP was just trolling everyone but I saw all those 'likes' and freaked out a little. Normally I wouldn't even respond to a thread like this but I was already writing on the forums tonight and feeling generous. Whether you think market trading is pvp or not really doesn't change the fact that it is. It's still player vs. player interaction. And I'm not advocating one playstyle over another by aknowledging that EVE is pvp. It's just a reality of sandbox gaming.
YK
"High-five, fist bump, explode, implode, fist bump again, under-five, up-five, chest-bump...ohhhhh....call 911!"
|
ZynnLee Akkori
Perkone
Caldari State
31
|
Posted - 2014.01.04 05:47:00 -
[117] - Quote
Just name something that would be worse for you if you had to work harder or sacrifice more to gank? I've never advocated for 100% security. I just think it's still too easy to cause other's grief. Notice also I have tried a couple time to suggest constructive ways to improve the game for your side! But then, you don't seem to see any need to change it since you seem to like ganking helpless people. "That's the game, suck it up!" Right?
It's okay though, I've always been a little Quixotic about the games I play. Maybe one day I will be able to afford my own AAA game and can do it "right" lol. A little SWG, BF4, WoW, and Eve all mixed up together. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
4350
|
Posted - 2014.01.04 05:58:00 -
[118] - Quote
ZynnLee Akkori wrote:Just name something that would be worse for you if you had to work harder or sacrifice more to gank?
Just name something that would be worse if potential victims worked harder or sacrificed more to survive. Oh right, isk/hr.
This user won the forums on 18/09/2013, then lost on 18/12/2013. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
4350
|
Posted - 2014.01.04 06:00:00 -
[119] - Quote
ZynnLee Akkori wrote:If the scales were at least balanced between the 2 camps, I would be less likely to bring it up.
But a pvp player gets to inflict on me their chosen 'fun' at their time and choosing. I cannot do the same to them with my chosen 'fun' activity.
The result of their 'fun' against me means I have to spend time and money to try and get back to my 'fun'. The result of my 'fun' results in no negative consequence at all on them.
The PK'er brings absolutely nothing to the game that benefits me. Not even their purchases of my goods or services is something that PVP alone can consume to my benefit.
Almost everything I do helps them in that I generate in-game things that they will find useful (like ISK, goods or services).
The scales are terribly unbalanced. Those in favor of the PK style can't have fun if I am not there as a target for their cowardly activities. I am completely capable of having fun if I never meet a single PK'er in my entire Eve career (there are lot's of PVE things to do with other PVE players!). They are just bullies, 'teaching' us how not to suck, or 'helping' us learn the game. derp!
And of course, few gankers are capable of having civil discourse, lolz. It regularly comes down to hiding behind name calling and ridicule. They won't allow that we have a legitimate gripe about Eve, whereas we are willing to compromise so that we all can have fun in game together!
See that underlined part? Now go back & read your last few posts.
This user won the forums on 18/09/2013, then lost on 18/12/2013. |
Meyr
SiN Corp
Black Core Alliance
196
|
Posted - 2014.01.04 06:02:00 -
[120] - Quote
Personally, I'd like to see NPC corp members be made unable to target anyone not in their corp.
This way, either you, as a ganker, are limited to attacking only members of YOUR NPC corp, or you have to join a player-run corporation, and thus can be war dec'd.
Not a perfect solution, I know, but it would go a long way towards solving the neutral-alt rep issue, and would expose gankers to some form of retribution from their victims (if your victim can afford to have mercs hunt your mains AND alts every minute you're logged in for the next six months because you've irritated them badly enough, hey, too bad for you, Buddy).
My 0.02 ISK worth of opinion. |
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