NO ONE can pay for their PVP by only doing PVP. Your SRP is paid for by corp or alliance taxes, which, ultimately, are generated by PVE. Your Faction Warfare ships are paid for by the PVE portion of FW, not just by 'pew-pew.'

Just because someone doesn't want to PVP doesn't mean they're "doing it wrong." Quite the contrary - they're doing it how they want to. They're paying their subscription fee to CCP, and getting something they enjoy in return.

So, stating that EVE is only a 'harsh, cold, dangerous place' is, at best, myopic

Sorry - I don't count ganking as PVP - it's a PK activity, pure and simple.

Controlling the rocks to be mined that are needed to build the ships is PvP.

OP, I'm sorry that you are too poor to buy PLEX and you have to grind PVE.

THAT, ladies and gentlemen, is the ultimate sandbox. Stop your moronic, short-sighted, and stupidly egotistical sneering at those evil, lazy, cowardly, and dirty mission-runners - who do you think just bought that X-Type X-Large Shield Booster from you? Some idiot looking to pad your killboard in the next fleet fight? Of course not.

Some people want to 'pew-pew!' Nothing wrong with that. Others just want to build things. Great - someone has to make new stuff to replace the losses, or supply new doctrines.

Others just want to have the shiniest, most ISK-per-module 'blinged-out' "ain't no rat gonna kill this" mission-running ship. It's a goal - just like that top-end Bougatti you'll never even come close to pushing to its limits..

Demonstrably false. Many pure-pvp activities are highly profitable and fund themselves.

Not agreeing with the op (except for people can do what they want, PVE or PVP, it doesn't matter, that's why sandbox games are cool), but what PVP activities are profitable?

People need to get it through their heads that EVE is both, not one or the other. The mere fact that thousand of people engage in both is proof enough. If EVE were just pvp, I wouldn't be mining and ratting right now.

Sorry - I don't count ganking as PVP - it's a PK activity, pure and simple.

That stated, what else do you term as 'PVP paying for itself?'

Yes they buy the DED module, but once they buy it they no longer need any more, unless they derp completely taking some tractor flipping bait. They are not a repeat customer.

On the other hand 0.0 players are repeat customers to missioners, because their implants and sister launchers and stuff get blown up frequently.

The trade is not both ways, it ends up being one directional.

NO ONE can pay for their PVP by only doing PVP.

I understand the viewpoint, I just think maybe you've stopped one step short - how do 0.0 residents PAY for those implants and launchers?

Personally, I mission & manufacture in hisec, along with ratting & exploration in nullsec. I know of no nullsec resident that doesn't either PLEX or PVE.

PLEX, by the way, for the person a few posts previous, has a market value set by what those who PVE will pay for it in return for continued play/training time, not by people who 'pew-pew' - those people SELL them to pay for new PVP ships. Unless you're an idiot, no one pays for game time by buying PLEX.

Killing other players can be profitable. A PVP fit is a PVP fit. They use the same mods I do. If I exchange a few thousand in ammo, nanite paste and repairs for tens of thousands in loot drops that I can reuse... That's profit.

If they drop an expensive deadspace mod that I can sell and use the subsequent gains to pay for my PVP, that's profit.

Some people spend time killing others and do not drop loot at station often enough. When those people die, they become a loot pinata. That's profit.

PVP is on the whole a losing or breakeven proposition for most people. But there can be profit involved. If you're good enough (and I'm certainly not) it can end up paying for itself, or even spitting a little isk back out.

Aside from ganking...which is PvP, as it most often takes place between two or more players interacting, the actual definition of player vs. player. I will be nice and make a second example of PvP paying for itself.

FW. And I am not talking about warp-stabbed, cloaky FW either. I am talking about "orbiting a button, or sitting on the beacon, mashing d-scan, defending your plex FW," is very much PvP that pays for itself.

Since the OP is so absolutely sure that his definition is "the definitive definition of EO," but is merely the same reductionist view that I have seen lobbed around here more than once...let's break this down for you.

If you truly believe that this is a PVE game, as you so eloquently put it, I would love to see how long you would last playing if you, the OP, were playing this game alone. Completely alone. Like Skyrim, or something like that.

There would be no point to manufacture, as no one would be there to need or want your stuff.

No point in fighting NPC's, as loot, isk, etc...would all be pointless. No need for 'em in a PvE game.

In fact, I am tired enough, that I do not need to go any further, because you already get the point.

EvE is the most PvP intensive game, that, quite frankly, most of us have ever played, as every single aspect of the game must be fought for, defended, etc.

So if you could kindly crawl back under the rock from whence you came, we'd all appreciate it.

Saying that PVE without PVP is pointless ignores the entirety of MMO gaming. Yes, there will always be dueling, but every one of them has been based upon PVE.

That said, it's all paid for or provided by PVE.

Did another PVP player give it to you?

:D

And yes, I'm just being picky for the sake of it.

Sorry - I don't count ganking as PVP - it's a PK activity, pure and simple.

That stated, what else do you term as 'PVP paying for itself?'

No. Most likely it was a disadvantageous transaction in which I traded them a couple hundred rounds of Fusion or Phased Plasma S for it.

The currency is irrelevant. Using that mod in exchange for the paltry amount of ammo I spent to get it contributes to my bottom line; selling higher priced mods that I don't use is profit.

Would you argue that station trading is not true profit because I purchase mods at one price from someone else, and then resell them at another?

No. Most likely it was a disadvantageous transaction in which I traded them a couple hundred rounds of Fusion or Phased Plasma S for it.

The currency is irrelevant. Using that mod in exchange for the paltry amount of ammo i spent to get it contributes to my bottom line; selling higher priced mods that I don't use is profit.

Would you argue that station trading is not true profit because I purchase mods at one price from someone else, and then resell them at another?

Real piracy, conquest of POCOs and moons. Eve is a game where PVE supports PVP, granted, as there are industrial processes that make using them desirable in the first place. Simple truth however is that all this PVE serves to generate PVP, and PVP can be used to secure yourself a nice little space to PVE.

Ratting is PVE? Tell that to the guy that ratted Clone Tags in my favourite system. Mining is PVE? Then you won't need that hardener... PVP is intertwined with everything and there is no escape. Ganking is legit PVP in my eyes, if I wish to wage an economic war against an entity that refuses to leave hisec I have a choice between wardeccing or ganking. Up-front or sneaky-surprise, it's a gameplay choice.

Sure, the guy grinding away all day has every right to enjoy his game the way he wants too. It's just as legit as my moronic, short-sighted, and stupidly egotistical sneering at those evil, lazy, cowardly, and dirty mission-runners that sell X-Types. I don't mind that they run missions. I mind that the majority does nothing else, and does not stand for anything but themselves.

My true gripe isn't with PVE, it's with the absolutely horrible mentality that a lot of mission runners have. I find it hard to not be condescending about someone that only plays for their own gain, and cries when he can't grind his ISK to play for free this month. I'm an annual subscriber, so these people just tick me off with their egoistic whining and autistic expectations.

what if there were new pvp missions that would give players competing objectives but for the same mission...

take the damsel...

player A. has to save the damsel

player B. has to make sure she stays put.

basically you are looking at fancy arena missions that will force the players to fight but the rewards would be worth the risk.

That stated, what else do you term as 'PVP paying for itself?'

The magic of EVE is to maintain a balance between PVP and PVE.

Ships and buildings in EVE do not wear off. If no destruction in PVP or PVE, construction is not needed. Ravaging in PVP activities substantially increases the demand for the products/services provided in PVE. PVP activities boost income to PVE activities such as mining, manufacturing and exploring.

On the other hand, without the enonomic benefits/drawbacks created by a rich game environment and economy for PVE, PVP will be meaningless. No one will be interested to fight for an empty space.

No one will be interested to fight for an empty space.

I beg to differ, but only to play devil's advocate.

If the only benefit of PvPing in 0.0 was having the name of your alliance in the top left of everyone's interface when they entered system, people would fight and die over it.

Gamers take up arms for no cause at all and with such minimal prompting.

Sorry - I don't count ganking as PVP - it's a PK activity, pure and simple.

That stated, what else do you term as 'PVP paying for itself?'

EVE is what you make of it - but it's all paid for by PVE. No PVE, no PVP.

Sorry - I don't count ganking as PVP - it's a PK activity, pure and simple.

That stated, what else do you term as 'PVP paying for itself?'

Controlling the rocks to be mined that are needed to build the ships is PvP.

PK is still PVP....

You make an argument that this game is based on PVE, and then disregard a major part of the PVP aspect of the game, simply because you don't agree with how it's done.

PK is still PVP....

You make an argument that this game is based on PVE, and then disregard a major part of the PVP aspect of the game, simply because you don't agree with how it's done.

Ehhh, what's 'real' piracy? I define it as PVP with purely profit in mind. Camping the known route of a mark, cloaking up inside a DED or exploration site, or more plainly shoot everything on an undock in lowsec.

Yes, I know some of you are going to threaten revenge for (insert whatever you want here).

Too bad.

Yes, it really is that simple.

"Real" piracy requires creativity and honor.

A lot of people call themselves pirates, but there have only ever been a certain number of them who actually are legitimate pirates. If you can't efficiently catch and ransom people (and uphold your end of the bargain when the ransom is paid), you're not a pirate; you're a **** with guns just like every other **** with guns in this game.

Pirates stick to certain codes of conduct. Stray too much, and you're just a camper, ganker or straight-up PvPer.

First, your return to shore was not part of our negotiations nor our agreement so I must do nothing. And secondly, you must be a pirate for the pirate's code to apply and you're not. And thirdly, the code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules. Welcome aboard the Black Pearl, Miss Turner .

For some reason I always just wanted an excuse to post that.

Let's be realistic: saying miner ganking is peeveepee is really like saying a large 30-year old dude knocking an old woman to the ground and stealing her pension check is a street brawl. It's really just stupid that people still say it.

Player A get's blobbed.
Player A comes on forum screaming that the missions are stupid.

Basically the same thing that happens with FW.

Controlling the rocks to be mined that are needed to build the ships is PvP.

Have you even tried?

Exactly, you PvP so you can do high end PvE activies in safety. Therefore, Sov PvE is the real end game, and PvP is just the mechanic to get there.

Exactly, you PvP so you can do high end PvE activies in safety. Therefore, Sov PvE is the real end game, and PvP is just the mechanic to get there.

Sov PVE can only be achieved if there is a proper PVP infrastructure to keep the PVE capsuleers safe. So it can be a mix of both PVE and PVP, but it is not strictly PVE.

No, it's not a mix. Sov Warfare is fighting over PvE resources. The end game is PvE. PvP is just a tool, a means, to get and hold those resources. Once those resources are obtain, it's all about the PvE.

NO ONE can pay for their PVP by only doing PVP.

everything is just pve

Or its exactly the opposite. Many sov wars have been fought over revenge, and out of spite. Sov wars are fought out of boredom, despite the cost. ISK doesn't make people log in, fun does. Weather you enjoy making isk or blowing it up is not something that can be generalized to the whole of Eve.

NO ONE can pay for their PVP by only doing PVP. Your SRP is paid for by corp or alliance taxes, which, ultimately, are generated by PVE. Your Faction Warfare ships are paid for by the PVE portion of FW, not just by 'pew-pew.'
.

Oh, and an obligitory Ore is Free!!!

NO ONE can pay for their PVP by only doing PVP. Your SRP is paid for by corp or alliance taxes, which, ultimately, are generated by PVE. Your Faction Warfare ships are paid for by the PVE portion of FW, not just by 'pew-pew.'

I do hope they make pure, non-ganking PVP activities more profitable.

And simultaneously making it even harder to attack and kill others in high-sec.

I do hope they make pure, non-ganking PVP activities more profitable.

And simultaneously making it even harder to attack and kill others in high-sec.

And simultaneously making it even harder to attack and kill others in high-sec.

Watchlisted.

Too bad.

Its going to be less PvE than ever for you , at least.

Why must CCP do it for you? You have the power to do this yourself.

So you agree changes must be made to make PVP more profitable so you aren't forced to PVE if you want to PVP?

You believe in the sandbox right?

This would be a welcome change - i just have absolutely zero concept of how it could be done.

Yes, I know some of you are going to threaten revenge for (insert whatever you want here).

Too bad.

EVE Online is PVE. PVP is what DRIVES EVE Online. The desire for fights, space, vengeance, and much more, but it's all based upon PVE.

You can disagree all you want to, but, at its core, PVE is what enables all of the PVP.

Wether it's mining (yes, all of you nullsec hardcases, MOON MINING IS STILL MINING - it's just the ultimate in AFK PVE), manufacturing, ratting, Faction Warfare, trading (yes, at the highest levels, trading is PVP, but not to 99% of the PEOPLE doing it), or mission-running, PVE is what EVE is based upon.

NO ONE can pay for their PVP by only doing PVP. Your SRP is paid for by corp or alliance taxes, which, ultimately, are generated by PVE. Your Faction Warfare ships are paid for by the PVE portion of FW, not just by 'pew-pew.'

Just because someone doesn't want to PVP doesn't mean they're "doing it wrong." Quite the contrary - they're doing it how they want to. They're paying their subscription fee to CCP, and getting something they enjoy in return.

THAT, ladies and gentlemen, is the ultimate sandbox. Stop your moronic, short-sighted, and stupidly egotistical sneering at those evil, lazy, cowardly, and dirty mission-runners - who do you think just bought that X-Type X-Large Shield Booster from you? Some idiot looking to pad your killboard in the next fleet fight? Of course not.

Some people want to 'pew-pew!' Nothing wrong with that. Others just want to build things. Great - someone has to make new stuff to replace the losses, or supply new doctrines.

Others just want to have the shiniest, most ISK-per-module 'blinged-out' "ain't no rat gonna kill this" mission-running ship. It's a goal - just like that top-end Bougatti you'll never even come close to pushing to its limits.

So, stating that EVE is only a 'harsh, cold, dangerous place' is, at best, myopic - it merely goes to show how self-centered you are. I've made great friends of people I'll probably never meet in person. I've spent time enjoying solo play, and I've been one more name in local during huge fleet fights.

EVE is what you make of it - but it's all paid for by PVE. No PVE, no PVP.

Yes, it really is that simple.

EVE Online is PVE. PVP is what DRIVES EVE Online. The desire for fights, space, vengeance, and much more, but it's all based upon PVE.

Ganking is the same thing as the 'knock out game'. Prepared aggressor against an unprepared victim. There is no honor there..

You so completely and utterly wrong.

It's amazing how many of those "YOLO, EvE is PVP! HTFU" type of players are unable to think past their F1 button.


No, he is not. You just misunderstand his point.
Of course it's possible for a group or an individual to fund themselves with PvP activities.
BUT: You only take assets from other players - assets which have to come from somewhere.
PvP doesn't create any ships or modules, it destroys them.
If no one would do PvE anymore then eventually we would all be fighting each other in noobships.

That wasn't his point. You just made a different one. But he explicitly said "No one can pay for PVP by doing only PVP" which is indeed patently false.

Sorry - I don't count ganking as PVP - it's a PK activity, pure and simple.

That stated, what else do you term as 'PVP paying for itself?'

Well there goes 90% of PVP in this game...

Ganking is the same thing as the 'knock out game'. Prepared aggressor against an unprepared victim. There is no honor there.

Except they're not that same at all. One case is emergent gameplay in a computer game. The other is attempting to kill a random stranger for street cred.

i bet you gank

If ZynnLee Akkori is to be believed, I also roam the streets murdering innocent people for street cred.

Ganking is the same thing as the 'knock out game'. Prepared aggressor against an unprepared victim. There is no honor there.

Why is one of the most complex and difficult to learn MMOs out there full of complete idiots who believe **** like this?
I don't get it.

Frankly there is no need for "honor", it's supposed to be piracy, not chivalry.

Perhaps saying there is a lack of ambition is more apt to define ganking.

Why is one of the most complex and difficult to learn MMOs out there full of complete idiots who believe **** like this?
I don't get it.

Gankers tend to be pretty ambitious, but of course, nowhere near as ambitious as the mission runners & miners who aspire to do nothing & want zero contact with people.

Wait, does this mean "eve is idiots"?

Gankers tend to be pretty ambitious, but of course, nowhere near as ambitious as the mission runners & miners who aspire to do nothing & want zero contact with people.

Why is one of the most complex and difficult to learn MMOs out there full of complete idiots who believe **** like this?
I don't get it.

So if the victim is unprepared that is their own fault, not the ganker's for being an opportunist. Just because a player is lazy and doesn't fully understand...

Why is one of the most complex and difficult to learn MMOs out there full of complete idiots who believe **** like this?
I don't get it.

Unless you're in an alliance. Then when people attack your stuff you get 24+ hours notice so you can be afk, offline, asleep, sweeping your moms basement... the server will protect you by making your stuff invulnerable, yes you can leave your super floating invulnerable in your POS no worries, then when you log on you can batphone all the other basement dwellers to be on at a certain time to defend your stuff....

Sandbox my ass :)

There's obviously a lot you don't get.

Nothing you do - nothing - once you undock is not PVP. An activity doesn't have to include pulse weapons to be pvp in EVE.

And denial is not just a river in Egypt.

YK

Just name something that would be worse for you if you had to work harder or sacrifice more to gank?

If the scales were at least balanced between the 2 camps, I would be less likely to bring it up.
But a pvp player gets to inflict on me their chosen 'fun' at their time and choosing. I cannot do the same to them with my chosen 'fun' activity.
The result of their 'fun' against me means I have to spend time and money to try and get back to my 'fun'. The result of my 'fun' results in no negative consequence at all on them.
The PK'er brings absolutely nothing to the game that benefits me. Not even their purchases of my goods or services is something that PVP alone can consume to my benefit.
Almost everything I do helps them in that I generate in-game things that they will find useful (like ISK, goods or services).

The scales are terribly unbalanced. Those in favor of the PK style can't have fun if I am not there as a target for their cowardly activities. I am completely capable of having fun if I never meet a single PK'er in my entire Eve career (there are lot's of PVE things to do with other PVE players!). They are just bullies, 'teaching' us how not to suck, or 'helping' us learn the game. derp!

And of course, few gankers are capable of having civil discourse, lolz. It regularly comes down to hiding behind name calling and ridicule. They won't allow that we have a legitimate gripe about Eve, whereas we are willing to compromise so that we all can have fun in game together!

Personally, I'd like to see NPC corp members be made unable to target anyone not in their corp.

This way, either you, as a ganker, are limited to attacking only members of YOUR NPC corp, or you have to join a player-run corporation, and thus can be war dec'd.

Not a perfect solution, I know, but it would go a long way towards solving the neutral-alt rep issue, and would expose gankers to some form of retribution from their victims (if your victim can afford to have mercs hunt your mains AND alts every minute you're logged in for the next six months because you've irritated them badly enough, hey, too bad for you, Buddy).

My 0.02 ISK worth of opinion.

Gankers in NPC corps are a very small minority.

only a small portion of players?

Sorry - I don't count ganking as PVP - it's a PK activity, pure and simple.

That stated, what else do you term as 'PVP paying for itself?'

Yes, I know some of you are going to threaten revenge for (insert whatever you want here).

Too bad.

EVE Online is PVE. PVP is what DRIVES EVE Online. The desire for fights, space, vengeance, and much more, but it's all based upon PVE.

You can disagree all you want to, but, at its core, PVE is what enables all of the PVP.

Wether it's mining (yes, all of you nullsec hardcases, MOON MINING IS STILL MINING - it's just the ultimate in AFK PVE), manufacturing, ratting, Faction Warfare, trading (yes, at the highest levels, trading is PVP, but not to 99% of the PEOPLE doing it), or mission-running, PVE is what EVE is based upon.

NO ONE can pay for their PVP by only doing PVP. Your SRP is paid for by corp or alliance taxes, which, ultimately, are generated by PVE. Your Faction Warfare ships are paid for by the PVE portion of FW, not just by 'pew-pew.'

Just because someone doesn't want to PVP doesn't mean they're "doing it wrong." Quite the contrary - they're doing it how they want to. They're paying their subscription fee to CCP, and getting something they enjoy in return.

THAT, ladies and gentlemen, is the ultimate sandbox. Stop your moronic, short-sighted, and stupidly egotistical sneering at those evil, lazy, cowardly, and dirty mission-runners - who do you think just bought that X-Type X-Large Shield Booster from you? Some idiot looking to pad your killboard in the next fleet fight? Of course not.

Some people want to 'pew-pew!' Nothing wrong with that. Others just want to build things. Great - someone has to make new stuff to replace the losses, or supply new doctrines.

Others just want to have the shiniest, most ISK-per-module 'blinged-out' "ain't no rat gonna kill this" mission-running ship. It's a goal - just like that top-end Bougatti you'll never even come close to pushing to its limits.

So, stating that EVE is only a 'harsh, cold, dangerous place' is, at best, myopic - it merely goes to show how self-centered you are. I've made great friends of people I'll probably never meet in person. I've spent time enjoying solo play, and I've been one more name in local during huge fleet fights.

EVE is what you make of it - but it's all paid for by PVE. No PVE, no PVP.

Yes, it really is that simple.

The scales are terribly unbalanced. Those in favor of the PK style can't have fun if I am not there as a target for their cowardly activities.

They won't allow that we have a legitimate gripe about Eve, whereas we are willing to compromise so that we all can have fun in game together!

Notice also I have tried a couple time to suggest constructive ways to improve the game for your side! But then, you don't seem to see any need to change it since you seem to like ganking helpless people.

"That's the game, suck it up!" Right?

Actrually an awful lot of people leave their high sec suicide gank alts in the original starter schools.

Main reason ... if you take out a multi billion ISK target, the victim cannot then hire mercs to war dec you and your corp.

This is something that really grinds my gears, can't stand when people say this. Despite what YOU may or may not classify as PvP holds absolutely no weight.

Fact, this is PvP. It is a player/s shooting at another player/s. Just because you or others may look down on this type of play style it doesn't mean it is not PvP.

Yes, this I say this as a soloist (gankers also annoy me at times as well). But there are just some things in this game that isn't possible unless you gank another player. At the end of the day, it is PvP no matter what way you look at it.


/endrant.

EDIT: Also, hunting explorers and PI industrials is a form of PvP which pays for itself. What about Faction Warfare? Bounty Hunting?

Sorry

Having played PvP games since the mid 90s including all the original FPS such as counterstrike, tribes, unreal torunament through to the new ones like CoD as well as running up 1000s of hours in PvP WWII flight sims and virtual online wars and various MMPORG ... it is pretty clear that PvP involves two or more Players fighting or shooting at each other.

EVE ganking of miners and industrials is NOT in any way PvP because quite simply two players are clearly NOT shooting at each other. One player is shooting at an object controlled by the other player.

OTHERWISE ... shooting at a POS or POCO or ganking a players MTU would ALSO be called PvP. As would market scams.

That doesnt mean suicide ganking is easy it requires a lot of planning to pull off well and make profitable. But it is simply not PvP.

So lets use Counter-Strike as an example. By your definition, the terrorist planting the bomb who is getting shot at isn't classified as PvP because the bomb planter can't shoot back?

No matter how much you try to fluff it up, it is PvP.

EVE ganking of miners and industrials is NOT in any way PvP because quite simply two players are clearly NOT shooting at each other. One player is shooting at an object controlled by the other player.

And, here we have an excellent example of tunnel-vision, along with a really bad case of "wow, did you get that one wrong."

Please, go back, engage your brain, spend 30 seconds thinking, and then start typing.

The results are far more interesting if you do things in that order.

This would be a welcome change - i just have absolutely zero concept of how it could be done.

Just name something that would be worse if potential victims worked harder or sacrificed more to survive. Oh right, isk/hr.

I'm sure it has been mentioned already but there's oh so many ways to make isk in EVE without "engaging" in PVE.

First let me clarify, PVP means "Player Versus Player", and non consensual PVP is still PVP.

Holy crap that is easy. I have to spend more time replacing modules I lose when I *still* get ganked. That means loss of income, loss of time. Fitting would have to sacrifice more for defense, which means less ore coming in, or fitting for missions in a less effective way (since the fit for pvp isn't always also the best fit for missions), which means more chance of failing missions, or taking longer. Having to wait for an alt to scout. Having to depend on a corpmate to defend me which means I don't get to set my own schedule.

But of course you didn't answer the question, which suggests you have no good answer. Thus, again, we see the imbalance.

Sheesh, I am continually amazed at the reading of this definition. The 'V' in that term is the clue. "Versus". This very important word. It suggests pretty clearly that both sides are involved in the activity. In reality, the ganker is the only one pursuing the activity in question and the victim is trying to survive via fleeing or trying to bunker. Therefore there is no "versus". The victim in the 'knock out game' is also not 'versus' their attacker. But by the quoted explanation, those encounters would be considered a 'fight' between the two people.

The other apparent option is to continue whining about the big bad PvPers. They are all horrible human beings who have subjected you to such turmoil that there simply must be something wrong with the game.

Unfortunately some people will never get it............

I'm not whining about PvPers. I am expressing frustration that *ganking* is so easy. As fro the Rokh? Seriously? lol, okay, so you are saying that to avoid being a target, I have to fly a combat battleship to mine. Hmm. With a tiny cargo hold. Once again we see the imbalance between to 2 playstyles. I have to sacrifice efficiency and effectiveness simply to try to avoid being the target of the other sides preferred style of play.

Also, just to clarify, I've not been ganked since reactivating (after 3 years off). That's not the motivating factor. I protest ganking because it's too easy. I've only mined for an hour or so to sorta remind myself about it. Since then I am looking around to see if I can find a better home region and organizing my stuff and training. Re-learning. I have no personal ax to grind. But I empathize with the people who *do* get ganked.

Sheesh, I am continually amazed at the reading of this definition. The 'V' in that term is the clue. "Versus". This very important word. It suggests pretty clearly that both sides are involved in the activity. In reality, the ganker is the only one pursuing the activity in question and the victim is trying to survive via fleeing or trying to bunker. Therefore there is no "versus".

Holy crap that is easy. I have to spend more time replacing modules I lose when I *still* get ganked. That means loss of income, loss of time. Fitting would have to sacrifice more for defense, which means less ore coming in, or fitting for missions in a less effective way (since the fit for pvp isn't always also the best fit for missions), which means more chance of failing missions, or taking longer. Having to wait for an alt to scout. Having to depend on a corpmate to defend me which means I don't get to set my own schedule.

But of course you didn't answer the question, which suggests you have no good answer. Thus, again, we see the imbalance.

I'm not whining about PvPers. I am expressing frustration that *ganking* is so easy. As fro the Rokh? Seriously? lol, okay, so you are saying that to avoid being a target, I have to fly a combat battleship to mine. Hmm. With a tiny cargo hold. Once again we see the imbalance between to 2 playstyles. I have to sacrifice efficiency and effectiveness simply to try to avoid being the target of the other sides preferred style of play.

Also, just to clarify, I've not been ganked since reactivating (after 3 years off). That's not the motivating factor. I protest ganking because it's too easy. I've only mined for an hour or so to sorta remind myself about it. Since then I am looking around to see if I can find a better home region and organizing my stuff and training. Re-learning. I have no personal ax to grind. But I empathize with the people who *do* get ganked.

Your view of a gank as being a non-pvp encounter is still incorrect, but at least you have a point here that I can sort of agree with. If it were up to me, miners would have tactical abilities that could even the field just a little. Currently, a miner's best friends are buffed ehp and escape - neither of which are particularly conducive to pgc. I've written many times that if they stayed on grid and could successfully fight off a frigate or two that this would more beneficial to pgc than having miners simply tank the dmg or pray they escape in time.

But is the activity - ganker vs. miner - player vs. player? PvP? Yes. Of course it is. Could the miner fit his barge with ecm drones, break a target lock, and escape? Could a crafty miner spot a scout, and sacrifice some of his yield to make his ship less gankalicious by giving up a single low slot? Could the miner fit his mining barge with weapons, ecm mods in the mids and sit in a belt doing nothing, appearing to be afk, as bait, waiting to turn the tables on would-be gankers? Yes again. Do both players have the same ability to target the other and activate a module which will result in the other failing at it's desired activity? Yes.

The possibilities are endless. EVE is a game of choices and consequences and everything I've described is pvp.

I think some of you fail to even recognize that the economy in this game is fueled by exploding spaceships. If ships did not explode, there would be no economy and your rocks, minerals, and mission loot would be worthless. It is both in everyone's best interests and in the game's best interest (both economically and for the quality of pgc) if everyone occasionally loses ships and causes others to lose them occasionally too. Players need to interact and Hulkageddon was good for the game.

Could we make it harder for people to gank each other? Hello. CCP just did this. It takes 2-3 frigates to gank a barge now. If they choose, miners can fit themselves with battleship-level ehp. Battleship-level ehp!!! And it doesn't even reduce their yield all that much. But even THAT still isn't enough because this argument will never end. What would satisfy the mining crowd? A 25 frigate requirement for a gank? 3 Battleships necessary to gank a barge? Full immunity from interaction with their environment? It's ridiculous. So I say nay. In fact, 2-3 frigates may even be too many. Should you even need a friend or lose isk to gank one solo, afk miner in a game about exploding spaceships?

For my part, it's clear to me that increasing nonengagment is simply in not the best interests of EVE and as anything else would be a major departure from the dystopia I have come to admire and call my space home, hopefully a majority of players will continue to agree with this view so long as I continue to play.

YK

Miners are already capable of defending themselves & fighting back, they just choose not to because it cuts in to their isk/hr.

I hear ya, and I agree. I've said before and will continue to say that I don't want 100% protection. Ganking may be at an 'all time low', but IMHO it is still too prevalent. It wouldn't be hard for CCP to come up with a way to make the decision to gank more weighty. The cost-to-benefit ratio is still a little too low.

I would love for miners to be able to fit a consumable item that allows us a better chance to escape without resorting to flying a freaking mining battleship in highsec. I just found out something last night I didn't know, and that is ECM burst will flag you in highsec.... if they affect an inanimate object!!! How stupid is that? I'm mining, ganker shows up and starts attacking, I pop a ECM burst to break target as I align to warp.... and Concord shows up to pop me since my ECM hit a freaking asteroid........

ECM drones are pretty effective, but since that cuts in to your isk/hr I guess you'll never use them.

TL;DR: The world is grey, not black or white.

OK, so what is your counterproposal?

With even a single low slot, a freighter with one DCII would be overpowered with all its hull hp granted resists

If a miner CHOOSES to not mine in a ship that is fit for tanking, that is their CHOICE. I have nothing against providing the unwary a lesson in the effects of their choices when outfitting a ship they intend to use for it's intended purpose - mining.

An Exhumer fit for max tank is simultaneously capable of mounting a respectable tank, and performing the mission of mining effectively.

My issue with ganking arises from Industrials and Freighters. A Freighter pilot has absolutely ZERO choice in how to outfit his ship. Any ganker logging in knows, before the Freighter pilot even boots up his computer, what it's going to take to kill that ship.

Industrials, on the other hand, with the exception of the specialized haulers under specific conditions, are totally incapable of fitting for tank AND hauling any useful amount of bulk cargo, or fitting for even a medium level of cargo capacity, and surviving a dirty look from a rookie ship.

Even when filled with trit, it's cost-effective to gank a freighter. There needs to be a balance point between using the designed capabilities of a hull, and the ease with which it can be killed, i.e., not fulfilling it's designed purpose. If you can't fill a freighter's cargohold with the least expensive cargo possible, without it being cost-effective to gank it, while giving the pilot ZERO options for altering the survivability of his vessel, it's a FAIL design. In a combat ship, this would be unacceptable, and pilots would be demanding change.

And, they'd get it. Just look at the Maller. It's now a fairly credible combat vessel. Haulers? Each race's most popular hauler was made EVEN EASIER to kill! Less capable of doing the job for which it was designed. Why? Gee, put a PVP-only pilot in charge of ship re-design, and you end up with asshat ship designs for vessels he only views as prey.

THAT is why so many of us say that ganking is too easy. Not because idiots are locking everything that comes through a gate, but because the Industrialists and Haulers have NO VIABLE OPTIONS IN HOW TO FIT THEIR VESSELS.

It suggests pretty clearly that both sides are involved in the activity.

guess who they drop the Catalysts on the majority of the time?

the ****** 3 systems over with an A type invuln?

That's only for those filthy people interested in profit.

well my vindicator would love an A type invuln.

Incidentally, I have found an exhumer fit that should make high sec miners happy. It should stand up fairly well to your typical Catalyst gank squad, even in 0.5 space, and has decent yield, as well.

To make it really shine, get yourself a full Genolution set and the 'Gnome' 705 and 905 hardwirings. It's cap stable and has 194k EHP versus Void, and a 229dps passive regen versus the same. I expect that this fit will be all the rage within the mining community, and causing all the rage within the highsec ganking community.*


[Skiff, Reasonable Tank]
Mining Laser Upgrade II
Damage Control II

Medium Shield Extender II
Medium Shield Extender II
Pithum A-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Pith X-Type Thermic Dissipation Field
Pith X-Type Kinetic Deflection Field

Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I

Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II

*Not responsible for those players with more dollars than sense that become a loot pinata.

Sorry - I don't count ganking as PVP - it's a PK activity, pure and simple.

That stated, what else do you term as 'PVP paying for itself?'

It's both.

An interesting question might be: Would EVE be as fun if the only environment to fight over was passive income, and not based on grinding?

Incidentally, I have found an exhumer fit that should make high sec miners happy. It should stand up fairly well to your typical Catalyst gank squad, even in 0.5 space, and has decent yield, as well.

To make it really shine, get yourself a full Genolution set and the 'Gnome' 705 and 905 hardwirings. It's cap stable and has 194k EHP versus Void, and a 229dps passive regen versus the same. I expect that this fit will be all the rage within the mining community, and causing all the rage within the highsec ganking community.*


[Skiff, Reasonable Tank]
Mining Laser Upgrade II
Damage Control II

Medium Shield Extender II
Medium Shield Extender II
Pithum A-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Pith X-Type Thermic Dissipation Field
Pith X-Type Kinetic Deflection Field

Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I

Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II

*Not responsible for those players with more dollars than sense that become a loot pinata.

Nice troll.

Got anything remotely reasonable?

OK, so what is your counterproposal?

With even a single low slot, a freighter with one DCII would be overpowered with all its hull hp granted resists. Freighters would be virtually immune to ganking. We can't do that. Even if it had a drone bay, as a capital ship, a freighter would take too long to acquire target lock for ecm drones to be particularly effective. So, are you proposing that attack BCs be removed from the game? It's their large weapon turrets on battlecruiser-class ships that make these attacks cost-effective, no?

Or how many of their turret points would you like to see removed? 1? 2? They have 8. Write up a proposal and submit it to features & ideas. You'll get trolled some but maybe a dev will reply telling you why it is/isn't a good idea.

And no one should be hauling hundreds of millions of isk worth of loot in t1 industrials. They CHOOSE to stuff it all in instead of making multiple trips to mitigate their risk.

It's the same principle.

YK

How about, as I've proposed several times, reducing all Freighter's cargo capacity to the point where a T2 cargohold expander will return them to their current capacity, and fit them with one low slot, 40 CPU, and 2 PG?

You DO understand that freighter pilots need SOME form of options in fitting their ships? Should they CHOOSE to gimp their ship's cargo capacity in return for increased survivability, who are you to protest it?

If it makes YOUR 'fun' more difficult, awwww, poor baby, too bad. That's what you gankers have been telling hauler pilots for years.

You want the killmail, I want to reach my destination intact. If my choice in how I fit my ship means you can't log in knowing exactly what it's going to take to kill me, that's not my problem. If a DC II makes my ship too hard for you to kill, too bad.

HTFU, as you gankers like to tell everyone else!

40 CPU, and 2 PG?

Just because someone doesn't want to PVP doesn't mean they're "doing it wrong." Quite the contrary - they're doing it how they want to.
Stop your moronic, short-sighted, and stupidly egotistical sneering at those evil, lazy, cowardly, and dirty mission-runners - who do you think just bought that X-Type X-Large Shield Booster from you? Some idiot looking to pad your killboard in the next fleet fight? Of course not.

Some people want to 'pew-pew!' Nothing wrong with that. Others just want to build things. Great - someone has to make new stuff to replace the losses, or supply new doctrines.

Others just want to have the shiniest, most ISK-per-module 'blinged-out' "ain't no rat gonna kill this" mission-running ship. It's a goal - just like that top-end Bougatti you'll never even come close to pushing to its limits.

So, stating that EVE is only a 'harsh, cold, dangerous place' is, at best, myopic - it merely goes to show how self-centered you are. I've made great friends of people I'll probably never meet in person. I've spent time enjoying solo play, and I've been one more name in local during huge fleet fights.

EVE is what you make of it - but it's all paid for by PVE. No PVE, no PVP..

Sounds like a good spot for a DCU II to me

There are no tech 2 drone control units.

There are no tech 2 drone control units.

A fact that I consider highly unfortunate.

If there were, however, they would surely consume 40CPU, 2PG, and reside in the solitary low slot of a rebalanced freighter.

If you can't fill a freighter's cargohold with the least expensive cargo possible, without it being cost-effective to gank it, while giving the pilot ZERO options for altering the survivability of his vessel, it's a FAIL design.

THAT is why so many of us say that ganking is too easy. Not because idiots are locking everything that comes through a gate, but because the Industrialists and Haulers have NO VIABLE OPTIONS IN HOW TO FIT THEIR VESSELS.

If it makes YOUR 'fun' more difficult, awwww, poor baby, too bad. That's what you gankers have been telling hauler pilots for years.

Yes, I know some of you are going to threaten revenge for (insert whatever you want here).

Too bad.

EVE Online is PVE. PVP is what DRIVES EVE Online. The desire for fights, space, vengeance, and much more, but it's all based upon PVE.

You can disagree all you want to, but, at its core, PVE is what enables all of the PVP.

Wether it's mining (yes, all of you nullsec hardcases, MOON MINING IS STILL MINING - it's just the ultimate in AFK PVE), manufacturing, ratting, Faction Warfare, trading (yes, at the highest levels, trading is PVP, but not to 99% of the PEOPLE doing it), or mission-running, PVE is what EVE is based upon.

NO ONE can pay for their PVP by only doing PVP. Your SRP is paid for by corp or alliance taxes, which, ultimately, are generated by PVE. Your Faction Warfare ships are paid for by the PVE portion of FW, not just by 'pew-pew.'

Just because someone doesn't want to PVP doesn't mean they're "doing it wrong." Quite the contrary - they're doing it how they want to. They're paying their subscription fee to CCP, and getting something they enjoy in return.

THAT, ladies and gentlemen, is the ultimate sandbox. Stop your moronic, short-sighted, and stupidly egotistical sneering at those evil, lazy, cowardly, and dirty mission-runners - who do you think just bought that X-Type X-Large Shield Booster from you? Some idiot looking to pad your killboard in the next fleet fight? Of course not.

Some people want to 'pew-pew!' Nothing wrong with that. Others just want to build things. Great - someone has to make new stuff to replace the losses, or supply new doctrines.

Others just want to have the shiniest, most ISK-per-module 'blinged-out' "ain't no rat gonna kill this" mission-running ship. It's a goal - just like that top-end Bougatti you'll never even come close to pushing to its limits.

So, stating that EVE is only a 'harsh, cold, dangerous place' is, at best, myopic - it merely goes to show how self-centered you are. I've made great friends of people I'll probably never meet in person. I've spent time enjoying solo play, and I've been one more name in local during huge fleet fights.

EVE is what you make of it - but it's all paid for by PVE. No PVE, no PVP.

Yes, it really is that simple.

What about officer ones

I'm not really so sure about that. It might turn out to be a little OP to put an officer mod on a freighter.

Takes just under a Billion in 'nados to gank a typical freighter.

So you want to change freighters? That was the whole point of this Eve is PvE thing? I've hauled all kinds of stuff in my Crane. Never had a problem. I am guessing that a lot of freighter pilots get along just fine. But something tells me that you are very angry and passionate about this crusade which leads me to guess that you have had problems that other freighter pilots have not. Am I off the mark here?

Nope. Haven't lost one yet. I simply hate the fact that freighter pilots have zero choice in regards to the survivability of their ship.

Nope. Haven't lost one yet. I simply hate the fact that freighter pilots have zero choice in regards to the survivability of their ship.

Yeah, because it's not like you people haven't been screaming at CCP to make ganking harder for years now or anything. Why put a little effort in to making yourself less likely to be ganked when you can just beg CCP to do it for you?

I trust you see the irony of a Goon making the above statement?

What I mentioned specifically was the fact that a freighter pilot has no choice in how many Catalysts it will take to kill his ship.

I can think of at least six options without even trying.

They do, they just choose not to use to available options. I've never been in the habit of begging CCP to make my playstyle easier because finding a counter was too much effort.

Please - elaborate at length!

What choice does a freighter pilot have in determining how many Catalysts it will take to kill his Obelisk?

At best, the pilot can plug in a few implants. Nothing else he has direct control over has any effect upon the EHP of his ship.

Alone among all ship classes, a freighter pilot has no fitting options.

EHP is not the only factor.

A freighter pilot can:

1. Use alts/friends to web him
2. Use Slave/LG Slave implants for more EHP (works best with armor freighters)
3. Use LG Nomad implants for agility
4. Fly JF instead for extra agility and EHP (costs quite a bit more though)
5. Use an alt/friend in a boosting ship to increase EHP
6. Take routes around common freighter ganking sites (e.g. Niarja) instead of going through them
7. Avoid autopilot
8. Use instant dock and undock bookmarks to avoid being cargo scanned at the most likely location (trade hub undocks)
9. Fly only through systems with higher security status to decrease CONCORD response time (which directly increases the DPS required to kill you)
10. Fly with combat escort (some jamming ships would be great for this)
11. Fly with logi escort
12. If you're being bumped as a setup for a gank, log off
13. Most importantly, don't fly with cargo worth ganking over