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Malakai Asamov Van Diemen's Demise Northern Coalition. 26	Posted - 2014.01.05 23:44:00 - [1] - Quote Hi Friends, New interceptor balance has bought a massive change in the eve "meta" for sub-caps and I would bet a large increase in the number of ships exploding due to their increased warp speeds, bubble immunity and increased survivability due to a reduction in their MWD sig penalty. I would be interested to hear what the ship balance team have seen stat wise? if this trifecta of ship bonuses is having the intended result? and their opinions how this may have effected all the previous ship balance work done? Would also like to here everyones thoughts on the bet I made above. That's the TL;DR done and the graph is at the bottom of the post. I make a lot of assumptions in the next section that may be wrong, anyway. I have been trying to find a T1 cruiser to combat interceptors in based on some arbitrary criteria I set: The interceptor pilots would not be bad and stay out of scram/web range I would need to combat multiple interceptors All skills level 5 for both sides, no links, no implants to keep everything relative as possible Drone damage not included as warriors do not apply damage well to fast interceptors Since my missile skills are terrible I went looking for a tracking bonused T1 cruiser hull which is not easy to find until you start looking at faction hulls. I do suspect bonused missles in the correct area are the most effective counter. I settled on the Stabber Fleet Issue due to its speed and half decent tank and relatively cheap price and 10% per level tracking bonus. I came up with arty and ac fits in pyfa and looked at a dps graph vs a stiletto and I was sad. I then gimped the fits adding as much tracking as was reasonable (mid and low slot mods, rigs and ammo) and looked at the graph again. And i became even sadder. Here are the two gimped SFI fits i ended up with and the tackle stiletto i was base lining the DPS graph on. Quote: [Stabber Fleet Issue, Arty sfi tracking fit] Co-Processor II Damage Control II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Gyrostabilizer II Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script Warp Disruptor II 720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Depleted Uranium M 720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Depleted Uranium M 720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Depleted Uranium M 720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Depleted Uranium M 720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Depleted Uranium M Medium Projectile Metastasis Adjuster I Medium Ancillary Current Router I Medium Ancillary Current Router I Quote: [Stabber Fleet Issue, AC sfi tracking fit] Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Gyrostabilizer II Damage Control II Gyrostabilizer II Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script Medium Shield Extender II Warp Disruptor II 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Depleted Uranium M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Depleted Uranium M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Depleted Uranium M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Depleted Uranium M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Depleted Uranium M Medium Projectile Metastasis Adjuster I Medium Projectile Metastasis Adjuster I Medium Projectile Burst Aerator I Quote: [Stiletto, Tackle] Micro Auxiliary Power Core II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Damage Control II Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I Warp Disruptor II Medium Shield Extender II Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script 200mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 200mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 'Malkuth' Rocket Launcher I, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Rocket Small Ionic Field Projector I Small Targeting System Subcontroller I I compared these pre and post Rubicon Interceptor changes and you can see the results here. (the graph is of the above stabber fleet issue fits shooting at the stiletto fit above) Personally I think with the bonuses interceptors now have, they have to many advantages over any ship battlecrusier size and below (the only reason I don't include battleships is because of large neut range) and I would like to see a modest decrease in the MWD sig radius reduction bonus. Thanks for reading friends.
Tetsuo Tsukaya Itinerant Empire 233	Posted - 2014.01.06 00:02:00 - [2] - Quote ONI might be able to do the job, but other than that a solo cruiser isn't going to be able to deal with an interceptor. New changes have made ceptors a lot more common in the meta, but generally speaking solo cruiser pvp doesn't seem all that viable anymore.
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 873	Posted - 2014.01.06 00:23:00 - [3] - Quote So you want a T1 Cruiser to be able to beat a T2 frigate assuming the frigate is well flown? And possibly several....?
Unsuccessful At Everything The Troll Bridge 8819	Posted - 2014.01.06 00:28:00 - [4] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: So you want a T1 Cruiser to be able to beat a T2 frigate assuming the frigate is well flown? And possibly several....? If you cant beat it, cry until they nerf it. *Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?*
John XIII Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team 66	Posted - 2014.01.06 00:35:00 - [5] - Quote Intey's are easy to train and fun for everyone. I think CCP really hit a grand-slam with them.
Malakai Asamov Van Diemen's Demise Northern Coalition. 26	Posted - 2014.01.06 00:47:00 - [6] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: So you want a T1 Cruiser to be able to beat a T2 frigate assuming the frigate is well flown? And possibly several....? I think a crusier specifically fitted to combat inties with bonuses that support that should have a slim chance of killing 1 inty within 5 minutes. Its kind of like rubicon is a movie called "return of the dramiel - but with better bonuses and harder to kill"
Silvetica Dian Manson Family Advent of Fate 543	Posted - 2014.01.06 01:08:00 - [7] - Quote try a rapid light caracal. or try an AF like a retribution. omen navy issue might work nicely if u could time the slings and transversal troughs. 1v1 try a hyena or a sentinal as well. we killed a bunch the other day with vagabonds. they melt as soon as you look at them tbh and the annoying bit is making them engage in a fight they might not win 10 vs 1. i don't fly ceptors but i really like the changes. made them useful and feared ships whilst retaining their very fragile tank. GF CCP imo. here is a list of all the fiat currencies that didn't end up at zero value.....and here is a list of the places where a currency pegged to a real commodity has successfully co-existed with compound interest....-á Here is a physics professor explaining why sustainable growth isn't a thing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-QA2rkpBSY
Ruezer Saint's Industries Brothers of Tangra 5	Posted - 2014.01.06 01:12:00 - [8] - Quote The solo inty is easy to handle for the most part. Going 1v1 is hard, almost have to fly an inty better than the other pilot. Had a solo inty jump on me and a corp mate ratting with me in a BS and him in a carrier (drone assist FTW lol) but when he jumped in on us, he tackled me and got to close and ran into the heavy neut I had equipped. Unfortunately he got out before I could refit to tackle and drone it to death. A small gang of inties are dangerous. Especially if they're ratter hunting with a cyno fitted friend with them. I believe it's gonna take some time to find a good counter for these fast ships, but as of right now, it's gonna take numbers and decent tactics
Tetsuo Tsukaya Itinerant Empire 233	Posted - 2014.01.06 01:30:00 - [9] - Quote Silvetica Dian wrote: try a rapid light caracal. Yeah about that...
Anatoly Vsevolod Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 10	Posted - 2014.01.06 02:08:00 - [10] - Quote Like Ruezer said, fight fire with fire ! Try to use other interceptors (Ares, Crusader, etc.) or perhaps some AFs and be a better pilot than your opponent.
James Amril-Kesh 4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation 8122	Posted - 2014.01.06 02:10:00 - [11] - Quote The signature radius penalty reduction existed before Rubicon. My EVE Videos
NEONOVUS Diabolically Sexy Eureka-Secret Science R Us 775	Posted - 2014.01.06 02:33:00 - [12] - Quote So if they are out of web and scram range >10km then shouldnt say small guns make them go poof or tracking bonused short range turrets? Or am I not understanding the scales involved here? I mean most of my kills are obviously on the Jita undock so scram web and torp the crap out of it (haha you fools said torps were weak!)
Unsuccessful At Everything The Troll Bridge 8824	Posted - 2014.01.06 03:00:00 - [13] - Quote CCP Y U NO FEED ME KILLZ NO MORE?!?!? *Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?*
Malakai Asamov Van Diemen's Demise Northern Coalition. 27	Posted - 2014.01.06 03:09:00 - [14] - Quote There are certainly scenario where either or wins due to plenty of conditional factors. It felt to me that ship rebalancing was finding a home for everything in the food chain of ship classes, with the new interceptor changes (after playing with them for a while) it feels like they are out of place to me considering their price and skillpoint requirements considering the number of "perks" they get.
Aiwha Infinite Point Nulli Secunda 678	Posted - 2014.01.06 03:09:00 - [15] - Quote Its a good change. Ceptor fleets are fun and easy for rookies to get in on. We're winning the war if it says so on CAOD! -á
Hasikan Miallok Republic University Minmatar Republic 113	Posted - 2014.01.06 03:12:00 - [16] - Quote I run my interceptors with dual hyper rigs and nano lows so mine aren't a threat to anyone just d@mn hard to catch. But lets be honest ... whatever ship is currently the best for small gangs will suddenly appear everywhere. If you nerfed inties something else will take their place. If you made assault frigate gangs the optimal way to fight, there would be AF everywhere. The assumption that "everyone flies ship X therefore ship X is ridiculously overpowered" is nonsense in a game as even being a few percent better in stats will make a ship dominant in a particular role. The alternative is to "balance" things to make all ships identical but that way lies boredom and will kill the game.
NEONOVUS Diabolically Sexy Eureka-Secret Science R Us 775	Posted - 2014.01.06 03:25:00 - [17] - Quote Unsuccessful At Everything wrote: CCP Y U NO FEED ME KILLZ NO MORE?!?!? They are Icelandic not American Thus small portions of whatever the sea barfed up or happened to be killed in a volcanic area. Oh and a certain amount of rock.
Liang Nuren Heretic Army Heretic Initiative 4302	Posted - 2014.01.06 03:31:00 - [18] - Quote Hasikan Miallok wrote: But lets be honest ... whatever ship is currently the best for small gangs will suddenly appear everywhere. If you nerfed inties something else will take their place. If you made assault frigate gangs the optimal way to fight, there would be AF everywhere. The assumption that "everyone flies ship X therefore ship X is ridiculously overpowered" is nonsense in a game as even being a few percent better in stats will make a ship dominant in a particular role. The alternative is to "balance" things to make all ships identical but that way lies boredom and will kill the game. The main thing though is 4 or 5 T2 frigates really should be able to kill a T1 cruiser with relative ease. Especially when the T1 cruiser cost 10 or 15 mill fitted and the intercepts cost more like 40 mill each fitted. What the original poster seems to be saying is he wants to be able to kill 200 mill worth of T2 frigates in a 15 mill T1 cruiser just because its a cruiser. It seems like he was willing to spend on pirate/faction cruisers if soloing in a cruiser would let him actually kill an interceptor or two before going down. Last I looked some of the pirate cruisers are pretty darn expensive. Since you're so conerned about cost: So what makes you think your 200M vs of T2 frigates should kill a billion ISK faction fit cruiser? -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
Diamond Zerg Taking Solo Away. 29	Posted - 2014.01.06 03:38:00 - [19] - Quote Unsuccessful At Everything wrote: CCP Y U NO FEED ME KILLZ NO MORE?!?!? Wow, dude, really? Can you please try to post constructively?
Tetsuo Tsukaya Itinerant Empire 233	Posted - 2014.01.06 03:49:00 - [20] - Quote Diamond Zerg wrote: Unsuccessful At Everything wrote: CCP Y U NO FEED ME KILLZ NO MORE?!?!? Wow, dude, really? Can you please try to post constructively? He'd only be... (GÇó_GÇó) ( GÇó_GÇó)>GîÉGûá-Gûá (GîÉGûá_Gûá) Unsuccessful at it. YEEEEEAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!
Unsuccessful At Everything The Troll Bridge 8824	Posted - 2014.01.06 03:49:00 - [21] - Quote Diamond Zerg wrote: Wow, dude, really? Can you please try to post constructively? Do you really want me to post constructively in a thread where you are crying because you cant kill an inty in your frig-death SFI anymore. or simply want to silence someone calling you out on what you really want? Because no matter how well you camouflage the thread with fits and words, it pretty much boils down to my last post. *Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?*
Malakai Asamov Van Diemen's Demise Northern Coalition. 27	Posted - 2014.01.06 03:52:00 - [22] - Quote Hasikan Miallok wrote: I run my interceptors with dual hyper rigs and nano lows so mine aren't a threat to anyone just d@mn hard to catch. But lets be honest ... whatever ship is currently the best for small gangs will suddenly appear everywhere. If you nerfed inties something else will take their place. If you made assault frigate gangs the optimal way to fight, there would be AF everywhere. The assumption that "everyone flies ship X therefore ship X is ridiculously overpowered" is nonsense in a game as even being a few percent better in stats will make a ship dominant in a particular role. The alternative is to "balance" things to make all ships identical but that way lies boredom and will kill the game. The main thing though is 4 or 5 T2 frigates really should be able to kill a T1 cruiser with relative ease. Especially when the T1 cruiser cost 10 or 15 mill fitted and the intercepts cost more like 40 mill each fitted. What the original poster seems to be saying is he wants to be able to kill 200 mill worth of T2 frigates in a 15 mill T1 cruiser just because its a cruiser. I know reasonable discussion is tough to get on this forum but what the OP (me) actually said was "I think a crusier specifically fitted to combat inties with bonuses that support that should have a slim chance of killing 1 inty within 5 minutes". The issue is compounded by several factors which all lead to interceptors being to perfect for their job which I think is a flaw. To highlight what i don't think is right is that in my skirmish linked stiletto running a faction point i can point out to 40km comfortably, heat to 60 something km for intial point and orbit at 5.5kms with a 70ish sig. Now at that range with that speed small guns cant reach me, med lr weapons cant track me and med sr weapons cant reach or track, bubbles cant stop me and if you warp somewhere i'm there before you are and lol neuts. Missiles yes they can be scary but so long as i avoid a few ships im fine. (yes there are a couple of scenarios where this is not true, nothing is absolute in eve).
Malakai Asamov Van Diemen's Demise Northern Coalition. 27	Posted - 2014.01.06 03:58:00 - [23] - Quote Unsuccessful At Everything wrote: Diamond Zerg wrote: Wow, dude, really? Can you please try to post constructively? Do you really want me to post constructively in a thread where you are crying because you cant kill an inty in your frig-death SFI anymore. or simply want to silence someone calling you out on what you really want? Because no matter how well you camouflage the thread with fits and words, it pretty much boils down to my last post. What I really want is constructive conversation not witty comments like "what it really boils down to is you crying because you think i'm crying".
Liang Nuren Heretic Army Heretic Initiative 4302	Posted - 2014.01.06 04:20:00 - [24] - Quote Malakai Asamov wrote: [ To highlight what i don't think is right is that in my skirmish linked stiletto running a faction point i can point out to 40km comfortably, heat to 60 something km for intial point and orbit at 5.5kms with a 70ish sig. Now at that range with that speed small guns cant reach me, med lr weapons cant track me and med sr weapons cant reach or track, bubbles cant stop me and if you warp somewhere i'm there before you are and lol neuts. Missiles yes they can be scary but so long as i avoid a few ships im fine. (yes there are a couple of scenarios where this is not true, nothing is absolute in eve). So now we're talking about two specialized ships performing their specialized roles. In this particular case, an inty is not trying to kill you, but merely holding you down for someone else to kill. If the Inty were actually killing you from that range I'd be much more likely to be concerned. For this specific situation I'm pretty comfortable suggesting you get a Curse. -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
Malakai Asamov Van Diemen's Demise Northern Coalition. 27	Posted - 2014.01.06 04:28:00 - [25] - Quote Liang Nuren wrote: Malakai Asamov wrote: [ To highlight what i don't think is right is that in my skirmish linked stiletto running a faction point i can point out to 40km comfortably, heat to 60 something km for intial point and orbit at 5.5kms with a 70ish sig. Now at that range with that speed small guns cant reach me, med lr weapons cant track me and med sr weapons cant reach or track, bubbles cant stop me and if you warp somewhere i'm there before you are and lol neuts. Missiles yes they can be scary but so long as i avoid a few ships im fine. (yes there are a couple of scenarios where this is not true, nothing is absolute in eve). So now we're talking about two specialized ships performing their specialized roles. In this particular case, an inty is not trying to kill you, but merely holding you down for someone else to kill. If the Inty were actually killing you from that range I'd be much more likely to be concerned. For this specific situation I'm pretty comfortable suggesting you get a Curse. -Liang That paragraph is talking about one speacilised ship, as far as i'm aware any point range bonused inty can do this to any ship. I shouldn't of muddied the water with diverging from the original proposition that statement was more to show that I'm aware and play both sides/styles.
Hasikan Miallok Republic University Minmatar Republic 113	Posted - 2014.01.06 05:17:00 - [26] - Quote Malakai Asamov wrote: ... and orbit at 5.5kms with a 70ish sig. Now at that range with that speed small guns cant reach me, med lr weapons cant track me and med sr weapons cant reach or track, bubbles cant stop me and if you warp somewhere i'm there before you are and lol neuts. Missiles yes they can be scary but so long as i avoid a few ships im fine. (yes there are a couple of scenarios where this is not true, nothing is absolute in eve). fair enuf ... so ... drones ???
Malakai Asamov Van Diemen's Demise Northern Coalition. 27	Posted - 2014.01.06 05:39:00 - [27] - Quote Hasikan Miallok wrote: Malakai Asamov wrote: ... and orbit at 5.5kms with a 70ish sig. Now at that range with that speed small guns cant reach me, med lr weapons cant track me and med sr weapons cant reach or track, bubbles cant stop me and if you warp somewhere i'm there before you are and lol neuts. Missiles yes they can be scary but so long as i avoid a few ships im fine. (yes there are a couple of scenarios where this is not true, nothing is absolute in eve). fair enuf ... so ... drones ??? I think the issues with drones is that they can potentially travel fast enough but they orbit to slow to keep up with a inty generally.
Kharamete Feral Solutions Inc 88	Posted - 2014.01.06 05:41:00 - [28] - Quote Liang Nuren wrote: [quote=Malakai Asamov][ For this specific situation I'm pretty comfortable suggesting you get a Curse. -Liang Or a couple of sentinels. From the other batch of frigs that were buffed in Rubicon. --- CCP FoxFour:-á"... the what button... oh god I didn't even know that existed. BRB."
QproQ Monolithic Juggernaut 2	Posted - 2014.01.06 05:59:00 - [29] - Quote It doesn't fit your criteria, but you could try a Geddon...
Jayne Fillon Sanctuary of Shadows Black Ops Armada 155	Posted - 2014.01.06 07:11:00 - [30] - Quote Ever since the patch I've been flying a nano Stabber to great success, overheated it goes 4.2km/s and with dual metastasis rigs has quite the projection ability. Simply burn directly away from the interceptor, they'll normally misjudge your speed and will give you a target with almost zero transversal (who needs tracking mods when you can manually pilot?). I've been having fun purposefully looking for gangs of interceptors, and seeing how many I can take down before I'm finally destroyed. My nemesis so far has been the dual prop dramiel and the hyena, those two ships are the instrument of my destruction much more often than any interceptor. Anyway, T1 cruisers are cheaper than interceptors now. The increase in performance for the interceptors was matched with an increase in cost. Seems fair to me. Can't shoot blues if you don't have any. Long Live NPSI.

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