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Is Scamming Killing The Future Of Eve?

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Lyris Nairn GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 3070	Posted - 2011.11.10 11:27:00 - [31] - Quote Ladie Harlot wrote: Big Bad Mofo wrote: Ladie Harlot wrote: Bad posting is killing the future of Eve. Why do you always have to post crap? We having actually a decent discussion here, and idiots like you have to troll. Reported.. I think you just proved my point. Big Bad MofoGÇö What my esteemed colleague was trying to convey to you in as elegant form as possible was that the future of EVE is being negatively impacted by the poor quality of posting culture on the official forums which takes many different forms to include but not limited to the sort of inane drivel we presently see before us in the form of an Internet slap-fight between yourself, Ladie Harlot, and possibly myself (though I would kindly appreciate it if you would keep me out of the scuffle). He further expresses, in his response to your post, that the slap-fight itself is more damaging to the coherence of the thread than the single drive-by post which spawned it. This is because while a single post might have irked you or some other reader, it is just a few words and by itself it is easily skimmed past and forgotten once the meat of the discussion is located in some other post. But it stops being white noise once you decide to say something about it, becoming instead its own competing message to that of the thread's nominal and intended topic. This is exacerbated each time someone else, such as myself, adds to the sidebar discussion. In forum posting circles, this is what we call a "derail," and it is usually not encouraged; but, like you did before me I felt that adding my two cents was important enough to sidestep this little bit of decorum so that I could type some words at someone whom I felt had erred. I have no doubt someone elseGÇöperhaps even yourselfGÇöwill find this post and read it at least partially because of its length; and, perhaps, that person will chime in about how the thread is becoming even further derailed despite the fact than in so doing they are in fact contributing to that derail. I do not say this to be malicious, to mock you, or to intentionally derail this thread any more than it is. I want this thread to get back onto the topic of scams, because this is one of the defining features of this particular MMO and part of what makes it a niche market; but, I do also want you to realize two things: first, that you exacerbated the situation when you could have simply let that which does not matter truly slide; second, that you have the ability to look beyond your first impulse to jot down an angry reply and instead respond with something constructive and relevant to the topic. And this leads me directly to my point: scamming is a major part of EVE Online. Whomsoever may be reading this post, be you one of the persons I quoted, a random player or a CCP employee, I think the biggest thing to take away from this thread is that a lot of people have a lot of opinions about this game, about what it means to them, and about how it should or should not be run and what content should or should not be available. Something that I notice frequently among almost all such discourse is the manner in which tensions and tempers tend to ignite and positions tend to be drawn into artificial polarities when no such extremes naturally exist. Like any other community, and like any other product, EVE Online will evolve with time. What you or I like about this game need not be the same, and while we may be opponents trying to outwit each other in-game we can still be civil on the forums and talk about the particular aspects of the game that are important to us with a degree of respect and humility that facilitates meaningful communication. No good comes from blindly shutting out the opinions of those who do not agree with us; instead, we must learn to acknowledge and accept the possibility that our detractors, even if we do not understand them or their reasoning, are every bit as entitled to their opinions as we are and that their opinions on particular issues likely make just as much sense to them as ours make to us. The trick then becomes building a coherent bridge between the competing ideals so that we can each expand our perspective to encompass the other's; then, and only then, can we really share ideas in a meaningful and productive way. And now ladies and gentlemen we are back on-topic: Scamming in EVE Online. Sky Captain of Your Heart; Lyris Chronicles of Narnia in the World of Tomorrow's Goonfleet dot Com; Good Poster Extraordinaire and Spacebook Superstar : RIFTERSWARM Theta Squad : Best Squad
Lyris Nairn GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 3070	Posted - 2011.11.10 11:31:00 - [32] - Quote Ladie Harlot wrote: Lyris Nairn wrote: Ladie Harlot wrote: Bad posting is killing the future of Eve. My posting is killing the future of posts. The OP doesn't like posts about posting. Hopefully he doesn't report you too. That is really sad, considering that he way we post is very relevant to not just this topic but to most others. In any discussion where there are divergent viewpointsGÇöwhich is to say pretty much any discussion about anything anywhereGÇöcare needs to be afforded not just to what is said but to how it is said and to whom, otherwise one gets not so much a useful post but just a jumble of aborted information that may as well not have been communicated. I agree wholeheartedly with your statement that bad posts can kill any discussion, but I suppose that our friend did not "get" what you meant by that. Hopefully the post that I made in response to his angry reply to you illustrates my point sufficiently that he will understand; otherwise, eh, what do you do, I suppose. Sky Captain of Your Heart; Lyris Chronicles of Narnia in the World of Tomorrow's Goonfleet dot Com; Good Poster Extraordinaire and Spacebook Superstar : RIFTERSWARM Theta Squad : Best Squad
St Mio Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 140	Posted - 2011.11.10 11:37:00 - [33] - Quote Big Bad Mofo wrote: (...) For example that newbiw whose took months, mining, mission and ratting to get that shiny new raven (bearing in mind he still cant really fly it) and along come some high sec gankers and poof its gone all the hard work gone. Back to square one. (...) Pilots should learn from as young an age as possible: 1. Don't fly what you can't afford to lose 2. Don't put all your eggs in one basket 3. Don't get emotionally attached to ships And EVE just wouldn't be the same if there wasn't that ever present threat that someone can shoot you, no matter where you are or what ship you're in. As for scamming: a fool and his money are easily parted, don't trust anyone, etc.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 1046	Posted - 2011.11.10 11:37:00 - [34] - Quote Tippia wrote: Not in any mechanical way, no. A bit of education might be in order though, so people realise what kind of game they have chosen to play, and so they can take the required precautions. This basically. Some of the greatest news stories about EVE involve scams of one sort or another. Whilst people who can't accept responsibility for their own mistakes and/or can't be bothered to read before clicking accept might be deterred, I am happy that EVE is not worse off for losing these people. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players. Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Samillian Trojan Trolls Controlled Chaos 23	Posted - 2011.11.10 11:39:00 - [35] - Quote While I agree up to a point that new players should have more education in the realities of EvE I can't help but feel that anyone who starts playing this game and hasn't done a little research into it is asking for what ever happens to them. I remember that it was the stories I read of what could happen that attracted me to this game. If you make EvE safer / easier in pursuit of a massively expanded player base you are not really doing those new players a favour but eroding the essential dark heart of the EvE experience and destroying the very thing that is the major appeal of this game.
Lyris Nairn GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 3075	Posted - 2011.11.10 11:40:00 - [36] - Quote Do you have something against newbies? Don't tell people not to be trusting! If people stop being easy scam victims, then how are all those eager youngsters going to pay for converting their trial accounts into full subscriptions? We just started up a recruitment drive on Something Awful, and if suddenly everyone starts behaving responsibly we are going to have a lot of poor and starving newbies wondering why they were lied to when we promised them a game full of ample opportunities to live off of the sweat of someone else's work. Sky Captain of Your Heart; Lyris Chronicles of Narnia in the World of Tomorrow's Goonfleet dot Com; Good Poster Extraordinaire and Spacebook Superstar : RIFTERSWARM Theta Squad : Best Squad
Thorn Galen Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact 170	Posted - 2011.11.10 11:40:00 - [37] - Quote Lyris Nairn, your signature is well-earned, especially this part :- "Good Poster Extraordinaire and Spacebook Superstar : RIFTERSWARM" Very decent posting indeed. Clear, informative and non-emotional. Please marry me The universe is an ancient desert, a vast wasteland with only occasional habitable planets as oases. We Fremen, comfortable with deserts, shall now venture into another. - STILGAR, From the Sietch to the Stars.
Lyris Nairn GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 3075	Posted - 2011.11.10 11:41:00 - [38] - Quote Thorn Galen wrote: Lyris Nairn, your signature is well-earned, especially this part :- "Good Poster Extraordinaire and Spacebook Superstar : RIFTERSWARM" Very decent posting indeed. Clear, informative and non-emotional. Please marry me I'm flattered! Please do a forum search for my name, and shine your "likes" down a few hundred of my posts. Sky Captain of Your Heart; Lyris Chronicles of Narnia in the World of Tomorrow's Goonfleet dot Com; Good Poster Extraordinaire and Spacebook Superstar : RIFTERSWARM Theta Squad : Best Squad
Big Bad Mofo Retribution. 46	Posted - 2011.11.10 11:46:00 - [39] - Quote Samillian wrote: While I agree up to a point that new players should have more education in the realities of EvE I can't help but feel that anyone who starts playing this game and hasn't done a little research into it is asking for what ever happens to them. I remember that it was the stories I read of what could happen that attracted me to this game. If you make EvE safer / easier in pursuit of a massively expanded player base you are not really doing those new players a favour but eroding the essential dark heart of the EvE experience and destroying the very thing that is the major appeal of this game. Do you really spend time researching how a players are etc in a game before playing it? really?
Hauling Hal The Black Ops 7	Posted - 2011.11.10 11:47:00 - [40] - Quote Scamming only becomes a problem if it starts to affect CCP's ability to keep the game profitable. Until then, I'm happy to double your ISK, sell you a faction Raven or rent you space in 0.0...
Stella Dust Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2011.11.10 11:50:00 - [41] - Quote Big Bad Mofo wrote: Samillian wrote: While I agree up to a point that new players should have more education in the realities of EvE I can't help but feel that anyone who starts playing this game and hasn't done a little research into it is asking for what ever happens to them. I remember that it was the stories I read of what could happen that attracted me to this game. If you make EvE safer / easier in pursuit of a massively expanded player base you are not really doing those new players a favour but eroding the essential dark heart of the EvE experience and destroying the very thing that is the major appeal of this game. Do you really spend time researching how a players are etc in a game before playing it? really? Most people do a limited amount of research with MMOs, even if it's just looking on the forums. What would these forums tell you? On a positive note: Just got a copy of Skyrim, seems the post was early.
Jenshae Chiroptera 154	Posted - 2011.11.10 11:52:00 - [42] - Quote Tippia wrote: Not in any mechanical way, no. A bit of education might be in order though, so people realise what kind of game they have chosen to play, and so they can take the required precautions. Tipsy is coming out of the zealous fervour and being rational again? Whew! Ideas & stuff No matter the changes, high sec people chose the safests. Lots of stick and they will leave. Half the problem is the players in null sec; we do not want to be there with you.
Samillian Trojan Trolls Controlled Chaos 23	Posted - 2011.11.10 12:00:00 - [43] - Quote Big Bad Mofo wrote: Samillian wrote: While I agree up to a point that new players should have more education in the realities of EvE I can't help but feel that anyone who starts playing this game and hasn't done a little research into it is asking for what ever happens to them. I remember that it was the stories I read of what could happen that attracted me to this game. If you make EvE safer / easier in pursuit of a massively expanded player base you are not really doing those new players a favour but eroding the essential dark heart of the EvE experience and destroying the very thing that is the major appeal of this game. Do you really spend time researching how a players are etc in a game before playing it? really? Yes. I spend at least half an hour if not more Googling and reading about anything I'm likely to spend any real money on which does funnily enough include the price of a subscription for a MMO, I also make use of the free trial periods amazingly enough to find out what the games like. No point throwing money away on something that you probably aren't going to like.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 1369	Posted - 2011.11.10 12:56:00 - [44] - Quote Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: Tippia wrote: Not in any mechanical way, no. A bit of education might be in order though, so people realise what kind of game they have chosen to play, and so they can take the required precautions. Tipsy is coming out of the zealous fervour and being rational again? Whew! The genocidal chiropractor in GÇ£haven't read/understood what has been writtenGÇ¥ shocker! Film at 11. No, waitGÇª that's not nice. After all, what I said there is exactly the same thing as I have said about pretty much everything else. So if you now want to call it GÇ£rationalGÇ¥ rather than whatever you called it before, then that's fine by me. I'm just a bit dismayed by the fact that you apparently haven't noticed what I'm saying until now. GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á
Alpheias Euphoria Released HYDRA RELOADED 152	Posted - 2011.11.10 13:00:00 - [45] - Quote Tippia wrote: No, waitGÇª that's not nice. I like this change about you. I'd kill kittens and puppies and bunnies I'd maim toddlers and teens and then more
Stella Dust Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 2	Posted - 2011.11.10 13:00:00 - [46] - Quote Tippia wrote: Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: Tippia wrote: Not in any mechanical way, no. A bit of education might be in order though, so people realise what kind of game they have chosen to play, and so they can take the required precautions. Tipsy is coming out of the zealous fervour and being rational again? Whew! The genocidal chiropractor in GÇ£haven't read/understood what has been writtenGÇ¥ shocker! Film at 11. No, waitGÇª that's not nice. After all, what I said there is exactly the same thing as I have said about pretty much everything else. So if you now want to call it GÇ£rationalGÇ¥ rather than whatever you called it before, then that's fine by me. I'm just a bit dismayed by the fact that you apparently haven't noticed what I'm saying until now. Think he means that the old Tippia used to be seen to have a balanced view (regardless of personal view) which over the last few weeks at least seem all one sided.
WhyTry1 Ministry of War Amarr Empire 1	Posted - 2011.11.10 21:15:00 - [47] - Quote Hauling Hal wrote: Scamming only becomes a problem if it starts to affect CCP's ability to keep the game profitable. Until then, I'm happy to double your ISK, sell you a faction Raven or rent you space in 0.0... It seems the decline has already started then
Large Collidable Object morons. 553	Posted - 2011.11.10 21:26:00 - [48] - Quote The only things allowing for successfull scams is the players own greed and stupidity. It's not the scammer who's 'bad', but the victim. I don't see any reason why CCP should implement mechanics to save players from their own greed and stupidity. morons-áare recruiting. We're good at breeding!
Nova Fox Novafox Shipyards 246	Posted - 2011.11.10 22:04:00 - [49] - Quote I second the need for the tutorial to betray a player to teach players that this a harsh universe and trust is a rare and valuable commodity Nova Fox Shipyards Inventory
Sentient Blade Walk It Off Coalition of the Unfortunate 73	Posted - 2011.11.10 22:10:00 - [50] - Quote Scamming is made worse by the availability of completely untraceable alt characters that can have no consequences delivered upon their owners. In the real world if you get scammed you at least have some opportunity to track that person down an exact compensation or vengeance. The person who did the scam may have used an alias but they still exist somewhere, there is a path at some point. Not in EvE. You can scam, biomass the character, no possible way of tracing it.
Fille Balle Ballbreakers R us 33	Posted - 2011.11.10 22:22:00 - [51] - Quote Big Bad Mofo wrote: Do we need to stop spamming? or at least have measures in place to protect players to some extent? Yes, the spamming needs to end. Ok, jokes aside. Part of the problem is, how are you going to stop scamming? What is a scam, and what is not? If I buy a shuttle priced at 8mil, was I just scammed? Or did I buy it because I needed a ship for transport and the only thing available in that system was a 8mil isk? The question becomes, where do you draw the line? I mean, sure, flogging off a carbon as a charon could certainly be deemed as a scam. But the old Navy mega only 200mil isk (2b if you read the contract)... it's overpriced, sure. But it was a Navy mega, right? My biggest gripe with scamming and scammers is the constant spamming of useless contracts. Oh, and I really hate the people who try to scam you with the direct trade thingy. That's so lame. I think the best thing is to try and educate people. Put it in huge f-off letter in the tutorial: EVE HAZ FRIGGIN SCAMMING, READ TEH FRIGGIN COTRACT BEFORE ACCEPTING, kthnksbai. Make a mission that involves choosing one out of five contracts, and make sure one of them is a scam. If they fail the the test, remove all their isk from their walled and put massive letters on the screen reading: YOU ARE DUMB! TRY AGAIN! NEXT TIME IT'S GAME OVER PAL! Give them back the cash, but make sure they've understood what that was all about. Maybe some sort of test. Like you're not allowed undock before you manage to complete the mission. And when they finally finish the mission, yet another set of letters: TRUST NO ONE! NOT EVEN YO MAMA, OR YOURSELF! IN EVE, YOU AIN'T GOT NO FRIENDS. That sort of thing might help people avoid getting scammed. For the record, I've never gotten scammed. There was this one time I thought I was gonna get scammed, but they were really nice pirates and took my isk and let me mission under their protection for three hours. Lucky me! Have you noticed how some ships are actually blue? Weird isn't it?
Lyris Nairn GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 3135	Posted - 2011.11.10 22:23:00 - [52] - Quote Not meaning to be your personal rain cloud, Sentient Blade, but in real life a lot of things that would be called "scams" by the average person are perfectly legitimate business practices tucked neatly away into the fine print of contracts no one ever bothers to read before signing; moreover, a person with a little bit of affluence, and thereby someone whom we can assume has the means to be internationally mobile, has very little to worry about with regards to being tracked down by some angry person even if that person manages to unerringly trace the source of his troubles to its actual originator. Scenes like the one in Saw where the insurance agent gets tracked down and tortured don't happen. In real life we hide behind corporations, organisations and other degrees of obfuscation to insulate us from the consequences of our actions in a manner not at all dissimilar from the actions taken by scammers in EVE Online to avoid future contact with previous victims. What do you think would happen if you found yourself on the losing end of a business deal? You wouldn't track down the slick lawyer or executive who just ruined your dreams and beat him to death (unless you're some kind of psychotic murderer), or anything like people say they want to do to people who scam them in EVE Online. You would take it, perhaps become depressed about it, and do nothing to the man, the team, the company, the corporation, or the conglomeration that just brought your world crashing down around you. And if you tried to do anything about it, then there are security guards, secretaries and policemen in your way to block physical and communicated violence towards them. Sky Captain of Your Heart; Lyris Chronicles of Narnia in the World of Tomorrow's Goonfleet dot Com; Good Poster Extraordinaire and Spacebook Superstar : RIFTERSWARM Theta Squad : Best Squad
ShipToaster Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 4	Posted - 2011.11.10 22:37:00 - [53] - Quote Does the htfu EVE of old still exist? Recently we seem to have moved toward a different vision of EVE where everything that made EVE unique has been getting removed. I expect scamming to be removed or nerfed somehow.
Destru Kaneda CTRL-Q 3	Posted - 2011.11.10 22:41:00 - [54] - Quote In a word, no. Music for robots, hackers, pirates, geeks and miscellaneous nerds.
Kengutsi Akira Ministry of War Amarr Empire 153	Posted - 2011.11.10 23:13:00 - [55] - Quote Dyner wrote: The answer is Yes and No Yes, scamming prevents the game from reaching it's Player Base potential. no cause really BIG scams BRING ppl into the game. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=255722#post255722 My stance on WiS
Krios Ahzek Juvenis Iratus 90	Posted - 2011.11.10 23:52:00 - [56] - Quote Diosas wrote: Kengutsi Akira wrote: Dyner wrote: The answer is Yes and No Yes, scamming prevents the game from reaching it's Player Base potential. no cause really BIG scams BRING ppl into the game. is there evidence of this? or just assumptions? I read that story about the Great Scam years ago and it was the memory of it, coupled with the few news stories of similar events on gaming sites and forums, that made me install this game and subscribe for 12 months in a blind leap of faith. Let the galaxy burn.
Crystal Liche ACME Mineral and Gas 24	Posted - 2011.11.11 01:13:00 - [57] - Quote Scamming has to be part of EVE, for reasons probably explained already. But I do think that certain scames harm EVE a lot and that CCP should put a stop to it. Like Corp recruiting scams. This pretty much makes the new recruiting tool pointless for anything but high sec. Because so much of EVE is dependent on being in a good corp this pretty much undermines the game for many new players. The contract scams and the links in the high traffic area chats make the game feel like a web site with 20 popups. I feel like I need to update my anti virus software before I go to Jita and wash my hands after. The stuff going on there is no-class trash that only serves to make the game feel trashy.
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 110	Posted - 2011.11.11 01:18:00 - [58] - Quote I can't think of a way that scamming is keeping the playerbase small. Anyone can get scammed in any game if they are weak enough to have said weaknesses exploited. I think it's the noise that scammers/griefers/whatever make about their "success" that makes people feel like they have to be a masochist to play this game.
Paragon Renegade The Multinational Company. 80	Posted - 2011.11.11 01:21:00 - [59] - Quote Anybody who falls for a scam in Jita, "Invests" in a corp or "Is recruited by" Goonswarm, they deserve to lose everything and die a horrible death "Man, you aren't actually trying to do this, right? Nobody is that stupid right?" "How wrong you are"
Dyner Midgard Protectorate 28	Posted - 2011.11.11 01:24:00 - [60] - Quote Kengutsi Akira wrote: Dyner wrote: The answer is Yes and No Yes, scamming prevents the game from reaching it's Player Base potential. no cause really BIG scams BRING ppl into the game. Doesn't bring in as many as it deters. BTW: I play this game because I don't like hand-holding. I don't like being 'safe'. AND I DON'T LIKE WHINY BRATS COMING IN THE GAME GOING "WAAAAH, IT'S TO HARD!"

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