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Miss Overlord
Gallente EUROPEANS
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Posted - 2006.10.13 11:22:00 -
[91]
heard of factional items , at least with rigs and invetnion it will reduce some of the more extreme t2 prices. But will wait and see what kali brings in terms of nerfs and boostings
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Lucre
STK Scientific Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.13 11:34:00 -
[92]
If you think the price of cloaks is bad now, just think what it'll be like if CCP fix the cyno/cloak bug on recon ships!
Oh, or for that matter if they decided covops ships needed a boost to their bonus/stats...
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StarStryder
Wise Guys
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Posted - 2006.10.13 12:16:00 -
[93]
Edited by: StarStryder on 13/10/2006 12:18:25 I think it's been said before but could do with re-iterating. COCDs are in another unique (or at least rare) position in that they offer functionality that their t1 counterparts don't.
T2 modules simply do what T1 modules do, they just do it better. The Proto/Improved Cloak relationship fits this. However, the COCD has no t1 equiavalent since no t1 modules let's you warp while cloaked.
How about this for an idea. Introduce a COCD 1 module that is similar to the t2 version but has ONE for the following restrictions (pick one):
a) 50% speed reduction. b) can be penetrated by ships with high sensor strength (ie one's with sensor boosters). c) has a random chance to success/failure each cycle, sort of like EW modules. The cycle duration might need to be tweaked for this.
You'd then have the standard cloaks (proto and improved II) as they exist now, *****ble to any ship, including the cov ops ships if you wanted. And then you'd have the COCDs with need a cov ops ship. The COCD II would require a COCD I to build. The cost of COCD I can be set by CCP via the blueprint cost and minerals required. Oh, and release the proto cloak bpo too.
Why the hell does it filter F I T T A which as far as I can see means either "Foreign Investment and Technology Transfer Act" or "Fixed Term Training Appointment"?
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madaluap
Gallente Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2006.10.13 12:21:00 -
[94]
Allthough having these modules a bit cheaper, whats the point? Only thing restricting people are the prices.
If a arazu goes for 200 mil and cloak device for 200 mil, people would still buy em. Only thing that sucks is the fact that the same people keep getting this ammount of money. This proves that money attracts money. Once your in, it will only get better.
History has also shown that all the things CCP did to reduce T2 prices has only risen it. Can you remember T2 parts being rewarded from agents? And how stopping would thrive the prices down, i dont think so... _________________________________________________
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Tar om
Minmatar Octavian Vanguard RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.13 12:40:00 -
[95]
Edited by: Tar om on 13/10/2006 12:41:28 Its hardly surprising that there is a small superclass of rich players in a capitalist economy. It may be unfair but its certainly realistic. 10% of the population in the USA own 80% of the wealth. I'd expect the figures in EVE to be similar. Remember - Money makes Money. You don't have to be smart to get rich, just rich. If you've got enough cash you can hire smart people to make your money grow while you spend quality time on your yacht with your groupies. -- We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net
"The belief in the possibility of a short decisive war appears to be one of the most ancient and dangerous of human illusions." |
Flowerpot
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Posted - 2006.10.13 13:24:00 -
[96]
Originally by: zeKzn Edited by: zeKzn on 12/10/2006 02:17:08 The sheer number of people spouting vitriol about economics and evil rich people saddens me. It also explains why the US ends up funding the rest of the world's economies.
If you haven't studied economics, dont try to talk about it, really.
I thought the US sucked money out of other economies. Trade deficit ring any bells ? I have studied economics and you sir are a turnip.
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Rod Blaine
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.10.13 13:33:00 -
[97]
Haha, yes, the US is funding the other economies in the world. Fun one that. Let's not go into that because that's sure to get out of hand.
The t1 cloak, improved t2 cloak or covops t2 cloak bpo's are not monopolised as much as some people state here. That is for sure.
What they are is either in the hands of a certian individual, or in the hands of a select few alliances, making for very few cloaks ot produced by the certain individual reaching the open market seeing how the alliances are probably using the few they will have left over to trade for other neat tech2 stuff htey can't produce themselves.
Face it, most tech2 produced in Eve never sees a market window. And that's nothing less then logical seeing the distribution of power within the galaxy, it reflects the effort and organisation put into the game by it's players quite well, and thus is a consequence instead of a cause of inequality.
But what was it that Eve was not ?
Right, fair.
Old blog |
Sir JoJo
Minmatar Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.10.13 13:38:00 -
[98]
could be fun if tis ONE guy decided eve aint hes game anymore and canncled hess acc and would be a while whit basilly no COCD II ;) back to the old fashion ways of scouting ;) [center]
[red]These http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=405987Rules are a disgrase to the Minmatar[/u |
Braaage
eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.13 14:07:00 -
[99]
Facts
There is more than 1 Covert Ops Cloak II BPO owner in game so there's no single monopoly of the item.
The CCO II needs another T2 cloak to make it which is on market at 40-50Mill before you even get the CCO II in the cooker.
The Tree for the CCO II is a Prototype cloaking device 1 turn it into an Improved Cloaking device II which is then used to make the CCO II.
This is why the CCO II is so expensive as it's currently selling for between 70-80m depending on region.
If the price of the Improved cloak drops then the price of the CCO II cloak may drop.
___________________________________________ http://www.eve-tutor.com
Picture based tutorial site for EVE-Online |
Centurin
Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e
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Posted - 2006.10.13 14:36:00 -
[100]
It's a shame that invention will not address t2 cloaks. Although, I never expected it to make any difference to begin with. CCP has no reason to change things. Invention is just a water bottle to help put out the forest fire flames about t2 that are on the forums. The T2 lottery breeds monopolies. EVE economics is flawed. The only people who disagree are T2 BPO owners.
In Real world economics, monopolies are illegal. True capitalism without regulation will eventually lead to nothing but monopolies. Such is the state of EVE. ----------------------------------------------- "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings" - Optimus Prime |
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Faruda
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Posted - 2006.10.13 14:52:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Braaage Facts There is more than 1 Covert Ops Cloak II BPO owner in game so there's no single monopoly of the item.
Cartel agrement between producers. And we have single monopoly. Any problems?
There are two possible solution(not breaking market and economics) : 1. Drastically increase number of BPO's, lets say twenty-fifty- times. And in this case possibly market will be driven by supply/demand. It is quick and dirty solution. 2. Liquidate whole system of the BPO's lottery and replace it with BPC obtained on regular basis(like offer from the normal agents). In this case increase in costs of smth t2,let's say Cap Rech 2, will immediately increase number of people trying to get this type BPC from the corresponding R&D agents. And vice versa, dropping of price for smth will decrease number of people reserching this smth. We have self regulated market.
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zeKzn
Empire of Destiny
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Posted - 2006.10.13 15:44:00 -
[102]
Edited by: zeKzn on 13/10/2006 15:46:45 Edited by: zeKzn on 13/10/2006 15:45:17
Originally by: Flowerpot
I thought the US sucked money out of other economies. Trade deficit ring any bells ? I have studied economics and you sir are a turnip.
You lack a basic understanding of the fundamental cycle of a open market.
The US trade deficit is the evidence that the US is funding other economies. If the US wasn't importing massive amounts from everywhere else, the countries it imports from would, for the most part, go into an instant recession.
A trade deficit means you're injecting money into the countries you trade from, not sucking it out. Are you absolutely sure you ever studied economics?
Edit: Actually the reason is more to do with the fact that the dollar is vastly overvalued, but whatever - the rest of my post still stands and nobody has yet managed to address it with anything but a "wah, i want t2 too" argument. _______
zeKzn - Empire of Destiny mods go here :> |
zeKzn
Empire of Destiny
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Posted - 2006.10.13 15:50:00 -
[103]
Edited by: zeKzn on 13/10/2006 15:51:08
Originally by: Faruda Cartel agrement between producers. And we have single monopoly. Any problems?
Just one, rather glaring one. Cartels are inherently unstable, and with the exception of OPEC every single cartel ever attempted in the world has fallen apart rather quickly.
Edit: With a few exceptions, I am certain. I just dont know of them.
Originally by: Faruda There are two possible solution(not breaking market and economics) : 1. Drastically increase number of BPO's, lets say twenty-fifty- times. And in this case possibly market will be driven by supply/demand. It is quick and dirty solution.
You haven't yet shown that there is a problem. As someone else pointed out, supply is pretty much entirely inelastic in the t2 market, due to the mechanics of BPOs, so prices will remain high. All your "solution" would achieve is to throw the entire t2 market into absolute havoc for a while.
Originally by: Faruda 2. Liquidate whole system of the BPO's lottery and replace it with BPC obtained on regular basis(like offer from the normal agents). In this case increase in costs of smth t2,let's say Cap Rech 2, will immediately increase number of people trying to get this type BPC from the corresponding R&D agents. And vice versa, dropping of price for smth will decrease number of people reserching this smth. We have self regulated market.
This would work better, at least in the sense it drops barriers to entry of the market. I would still say that if people aren't given the small opportunities to make absolutely obscene sums of money by playing the market game instead of running missions, nobody would do it. _______
zeKzn - Empire of Destiny mods go here :> |
Naal Morno
ECP Rogues Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.10.13 15:52:00 -
[104]
Hello.
Covert ops II prices are dictated by Improved Cloaking Device II prices as each covert uses one improved in manufacturing process as an ingredient. Please check prices on improved cloaks and redirect your anger to people who gouged the market to such price levels.
I hope this sheds some light on the price of covert ops II and possibly makes me less evil.
Cheers _________________________________________
The cloaky orchestrator |
Butter Dog
The Dead Miners Society
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Posted - 2006.10.13 15:52:00 -
[105]
Edited by: Butter Dog on 13/10/2006 15:52:28
Originally by: zeKzn Edited by: zeKzn on 13/10/2006 15:46:45 Edited by: zeKzn on 13/10/2006 15:45:17
Originally by: Flowerpot
I thought the US sucked money out of other economies. Trade deficit ring any bells ? I have studied economics and you sir are a turnip.
You lack a basic understanding of the fundamental cycle of a open market.
The US trade deficit is the evidence that the US is funding other economies. If the US wasn't importing massive amounts from everywhere else, the countries it imports from would, for the most part, go into an instant recession.
A trade deficit means you're injecting money into the countries you trade from, not sucking it out. Are you absolutely sure you ever studied economics?
Edit: Actually the reason is more to do with the fact that the dollar is vastly overvalued, but whatever - the rest of my post still stands and nobody has yet managed to address it with anything but a "wah, i want t2 too" argument.
It is true that a trade defecit means you are consuming more than you produce.
However, there is only so much money sloshing about in the global economy. SOMEONE, somewhere, has to provide the money for the US to go on its spending spree. And who is it? The rest of the world, buying dollars and US government bonds. This allows the US to fund its trade defecit.
So, in actual fact, the money the US is pouring into other economies by consuming more than it produces, is actually borrowed from other economies to begin with. You cannot spend more than you earn without borrowing it from someone else. This applies to nations as well as individuals.
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zeKzn
Empire of Destiny
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Posted - 2006.10.13 15:57:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Butter Dog
It is true that a trade defecit means you are consuming more than you produce.
However, there is only so much money sloshing about in the global economy. SOMEONE, somewhere, has to provide the money for the US to go on its spending spree. And who is it? The rest of the world, buying dollars and US government bonds. This allows the US to fund its trade defecit.
So, in actual fact, the money the US is pouring into other economies by consuming more than it produces, is actually borrowed from other economies to being with.
This is exactly why the US dollar is hugely overvalued. It is also, I believe, the fact nobody is willing to risk letting the dollar fall. You aren't mentioning the fact that the US still has to guarantee whatever the rates they're paying on their bonds these days are.
Your argument is also somewhat misleading. The bonds purchased give more money to the US government, who are most certainly not the ones directly responsible for the outflow of money from the US. Granted, it still increases the US money supply overall, but because various people are pressuring the US to prop the dollar up and basically continue down the path to ruin they are taking, it has little to no effect except to provide more money to then be spent on imports.
Its certainly not the evil US stealing money from other countries and not giving them anything back - if it were nobody would do it anymore. The fact remains that due to the US being willing to effectively ruin itself to hold the entire global economy above a recession, it is the most effective investment any country as a whole could make. _______
zeKzn - Empire of Destiny mods go here :> |
Brem Watson
Caldari Nexus-6
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Posted - 2006.10.13 16:39:00 -
[107]
Saw a Cov Ops Cloak II for 74 mil last night.
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Penumbral Shadow
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Posted - 2006.11.01 01:46:00 -
[108]
Edited by: Penumbral Shadow on 01/11/2006 01:49:07 you know, as a new cov ops pilot, and not a overly rich character, the price to fit the ship is a bit daunting. the loss of a 75 million isk module that i need to make my 5 million isk ship work right would seriously hurt my ability to continue as a cov ops pilot should i loose it. now granted, im still some what new, and dont have a billion isk at my disposal, but the price just seems daunting to me.
to me thats almost another raven, or megathron.
personaly i think the price needs to come down somehow. Im all for people earning profit, but if i loose one, i wont be buying another one for about a week while i remake the isk back. ( especially after all the loot drop nerfs )
i actually even see plenty of supply on the market. the supply is there. so tuxford.. while you are nerfing all that is good... how about finding a way to nerf the price so i can afford to go do what i specialised for... or donate an obscene amount of isk to me so i dont care :-P
because thats what it really comes down to, being able to afford doing what you want in the game. loss is inevitable. and working to replace your loss is fine... would just be nice if replacement didnt hurt so bad.
( this is the part where everyone who is already bathing in obscene wealth tells me to just get over it :-P )
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Valkazm
Amarr Cursed Spawn SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.01 01:51:00 -
[109]
There worth it though
Cursed Spawn recruitment |
El Yatta
Caldari Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2006.11.01 02:03:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Face it, most tech2 produced in Eve never sees a market window. And that's nothing less then logical seeing the distribution of power within the galaxy, it reflects the effort and organisation put into the game by it's players quite well, and thus is a consequence instead of a cause of inequality.
But what was it that Eve was not ?
Right, fair.
This is most certainly true, and is of course a very cool part of EVE - that those with the cunning, skill (and above all grind-tastic effort) can dominate a technology area and help deny it to their enemies, while ensuring they have an excellent supply.
Its quite a cool thing. What the problem is, is that the specific mechanics of t2 mean there are only 20 BPOs of a non-ammo t2 item, and therefore you can only acquire that advantage over enemies in portions of 1/20th the supply to the ENTIRE game. Its too large chunks, because (separate from the intended and cool denial of tech to your enemy) it denies it to people who are completely separate from you and aren't fighting you, small scale or strategically, who want access to a very large area of the game.
These people, the small guys, the small combat corps and that, cant expect to have a BPO, 1 bpo produces far more than their need, and certainly every small entity cant have 1/20 of the supply of an item to the game.
This is why, if it works as intended, invention is such a brilliant solution. It allows the small guy to, if he had equal logistics (scaled down for pure m3)and ability can produce his own t2 in high-demand, silly-price areas, (the HACs, the 425s, the cap2s), at decreased efficiency, yet still meeting his demands. He doesnt need the BPO but he does need the logistics/effort that the big-boys needed to get and use the BPOs. I dont beleive it will greatly change market prices though. It is also awful that COCDs cannot be invented (t2 BPCs cant be invented, so even if you had the proto cloak bpo seeded you wont be inventing improved --> covops).
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Phrixus Zephyr
Yesodic Nomads Corp Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2006.11.01 02:30:00 -
[111]
Edited by: Phrixus Zephyr on 01/11/2006 02:30:09 So basicly even with invention use need to role the dice on an T2 Improved, then role the dice again on a T2 Cov ops.
I don't get why its the only T2 item thats dependant on another T2 item. The prior's prices being utterly dependant on the latter, and the latter always upping his price if he thinks the prior is making more than him. Borked..
Glad i picked my T2 Covops cloaks from the rubble of other people's ships.
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Naal Morno
ECP Rogues Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.01 02:44:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Phrixus Zephyr Edited by: Phrixus Zephyr on 01/11/2006 02:30:09 So basicly even with invention use need to role the dice on an T2 Improved, then role the dice again on a T2 Cov ops.
I don't get why its the only T2 item thats dependant on another T2 item. The prior's prices being utterly dependant on the latter, and the latter always upping his price if he thinks the prior is making more than him. Borked..
Glad i picked my T2 Covops cloaks from the rubble of other people's ships.
See, you don't have to spend 75mil on cloak after all _________________________________________
Once I thought T2 BPO Lottery is a problem... Then I've become a part of problem and I relized that previously I was just plain jealous. |
Celeste Coeval
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Posted - 2006.11.01 23:48:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus I'm happy with the COCD II prices much like I am with HAC prices.. Can't have every nub who can train up cloaking or heavy assult to have one now can we? I think it would be less of a game if cov ops and HACs were commonplace due to cheapness of price.. I mean the 'Elite' in the name tag should mean more than just being able to fly it.. you should also have the burden of affording it too to keep them truly 'Elite' ships..
I agree, I'm fairly new to eve and i think these components shouldn't be available to all at low prices. Why? Because then they get used for covert ops and for those that can afford it as a special mod for their ships. It is not your right to own a cloak its a choice. This choice comes with a price pay or dont.
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Bermag
Point-Zero Ratel Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.02 08:21:00 -
[114]
The problem with covert op cloaks is not an evil cartel on cov op cloaks (or improved cloaks) it is just to low supply compared to demand.
What do you think will happen if cloak producers start selling at cost price? Someone would buy all cloaks and mark up the prices to current levels because people are prepared to pay that.
Prices will be high until supply is increased. But I am afraid that invention might not help with this.
**** prices is just getting worse and worse, 2 months ago I bought a cov op cloak for 55 mill now they are 70 mill+
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Ztrain
Vanguard Frontiers Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.03 10:15:00 -
[115]
Problem solved. Fifteen US bucks get you a pair of really nice cov ops cloaks at current market value. You can ether get time cards and try to auction them off or just talk to some of the guy's over at Red Alliance I'm sure they'd be more then happy to cut yah a deal. In your safespot killin your doods! |
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