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Ahop Yol	Posted - 2006.04.15 21:20:00 - [1] A little while ago, I remember buying a COCD II for like 17mil. Just checked the market to get another and couldn't believe my eyes when I saw they were going for 40-50mil. Anyone have an explanation for that? Don't give me 'supply and demand' because I have studied that to death. There are sell orders up in most regions with like 20-50 COCD II's per order so you can't say that demand outweighing supply is driving the costs up. Sure, I expect there to be a little more demand than before, what with the recon cruisers being released but I find it hard to believe that is the sole reason. Is it just BPO owners getting greedy because they have a monopoly? Constructive discussion only please.
The Enslaver	Posted - 2006.04.15 21:22:00 - [2] Ask Naal Morno. -------- Shinra Director
jbob2000	Posted - 2006.04.15 21:23:00 - [3]
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.04.15 21:24:00 - [4] Originally by: Ahop Yol Is it just BPO owners correction: BPO owner. one guy owns pretty much all the COCDII bpos and so can charge whatever the **** he wants for them ______________________________________________________ Account Cancelled
Gronsak	Posted - 2006.04.15 21:26:00 - [5] Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Ahop Yol Is it just BPO owners correction: BPO owner. one guy owns pretty much all the COCDII bpos and so can charge whatever the ** he wants for them yep plus he could sell all his stock at 5mil a piece, or sell 1/10th his stock at 50mil a piece, it makes sense to sell them all at 50mil a piece. -------------------Sig----------------------- Decrease blaster CPU useage** Decrease Hybrid cap useage Balance all weapon systems DO IT SOON
Ahop Yol	Posted - 2006.04.15 21:27:00 - [6] I has half expecting to get replies along the lines of "waaaaaaaah" or "buhu". Thanks for the decent replies. I thought as much, cheers guys.
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.04.15 21:33:00 - [7] Actually, the main problem is the supply bottleneck with the Improved Cloak IIs, in my experience (they're both used as is and are used to make COCD IIs, thus creating a massive bottleneck). [23] Member: Official Forum Warrior What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
Kipkruide	Posted - 2006.04.15 21:35:00 - [8] yup getting expensive tbs
Nikolai Nuvolari	Posted - 2006.04.15 21:39:00 - [9] Honestly, this monopoly needs to be broken. No government would allow it, and even if they did, competitors would develop the tech also. I hope reverse engineering allows creation of BPOs, or at least a steady flow of BPCs. -------- Tom Thumb > for a nut case you rawk [04:21:15] Mebrithiel Ju'wien > Nik's bio 4tw btw [07:38:53] Graelyn > Nikolai for Dev 108!
Nyphur	Posted - 2006.04.15 21:39:00 - [10] Originally by: Dark Shikari Actually, the main problem is the supply bottleneck with the Improved Cloak IIs, in my experience (they're both used as is and are used to make COCD IIs, thus creating a massive bottleneck). Are you sure the problem isn't the lack of covops being destroyed? Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources.
9854365	Posted - 2006.04.15 21:40:00 - [11] Me hugs my bpc's
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.04.15 21:43:00 - [12] Originally by: Nyphur Originally by: Dark Shikari Actually, the main problem is the supply bottleneck with the Improved Cloak IIs, in my experience (they're both used as is and are used to make COCD IIs, thus creating a massive bottleneck). Are you sure the problem isn't the lack of covops being destroyed? that would drop the prices Win a Cerberus!! sigs of the 23/24/25 hijack just as well -eris yarrrr, i shall retake my sig -HippoKing Not a chance, our 1337 sig haXx0r sk1llz are too powerful! - Wrangler Ho-Ho-Hooooooo, Merry Saturday!11 - Immy Yo ho ho and a bottle of BReeEEEEeee.... - Jacques ARRRRRRchambault Stop spamming with "QFT" >:\|. - Teblin Who pwned who? ~kieron RAWR!11 Sig Hijack!11 - Imaran
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.04.15 21:44:00 - [13] Originally by: Nyphur Originally by: Dark Shikari Actually, the main problem is the supply bottleneck with the Improved Cloak IIs, in my experience (they're both used as is and are used to make COCD IIs, thus creating a massive bottleneck). Are you sure the problem isn't the lack of covops being destroyed? Fewer covops being destroyed = lower demand = lower prices. I don't see prices dropping [23] Member: Official Forum Warrior What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
Nyphur	Posted - 2006.04.15 21:49:00 - [14] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Nyphur Originally by: Dark Shikari Actually, the main problem is the supply bottleneck with the Improved Cloak IIs, in my experience (they're both used as is and are used to make COCD IIs, thus creating a massive bottleneck). Are you sure the problem isn't the lack of covops being destroyed? Fewer covops being destroyed = lower demand = lower prices. I don't see prices dropping Er.. right, silly me ^^; So the covop IIs need improved IIs to make? The price of improved IIs is huge right now. Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources.
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.04.15 21:55:00 - [15] Originally by: Nyphur So the covop IIs need improved IIs to make? Yes. Originally by: Nyphur The price of improved IIs is huge right now. Which is why Covops cloaks cost so much [23] Member: Official Forum Warrior What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
Danton Marcellus	Posted - 2006.04.15 22:03:00 - [16] Using one tech II module to make another tech II module is fubar, fix it. Remind me about The Maze. I'm Danton Marcellus and I approve of this message.
Tasuric Orka	Posted - 2006.04.15 22:04:00 - [17] It pretty much sucks, unlike other modules, as far as i know, the T2 cloak is FAR superior to the T1. I was hoping to become a covops pilot, but these prices are insane, and have caused me to reconsider for the time being. I dont know why CCP doesnt at least nerfs monopolies by making agents give out bpc's regularly. I dont know about reverse engineering, and if it will work for this sort of thing, but i really hope so. ________________________________________________ Hypocritical.
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.04.15 22:07:00 - [18] Originally by: Tasuric Orka It pretty much sucks, unlike other modules, as far as i know, the T2 cloak is FAR superior to the T1. I was hoping to become a covops pilot, but these prices are insane, and have caused me to reconsider for the time being. I dont know why CCP doesnt at least nerfs monopolies by making agents give out bpc's regularly. I dont know about reverse engineering, and if it will work for this sort of thing, but i really hope so. Its not really a monopoly, I don't think. Lets say improved cloaks build at a rate of 7 a day. Lets say there's 20 BPOs, so a total of 140 a day. 110 a day are probably used to build covops cloaks. That leaves 30 a day to put on market. They're of course bought very quickly, as 30 a day of any module is very little. This drives up the price of improved cloaks. But, on the other hand, the other 110 improved cloaks are still being bought to finance the covert cloak production. So the covert ops cloak BPO owners are forced to raise their prices. Thus, the entire cloak market's pricing system runs as if only about 25% of the improved cloaks even existed, even though they are all being "used"! [23] Member: Official Forum Warrior What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
Tasuric Orka	Posted - 2006.04.15 22:28:00 - [19] I see, well, if that's the case, ccp just needs to cut the amount of improved cloaks required, or just make em require none, and balance it out by increasing mineral requirements. ________________________________________________ Hypocritical.
Hllaxiu	Posted - 2006.04.15 22:29:00 - [20] Originally by: Dark Shikari Actually, the main problem is the supply bottleneck with the Improved Cloak IIs, in my experience (they're both used as is and are used to make COCD IIs, thus creating a massive bottleneck). This is quite true. The real monopoly (From what I've heard anyways) is on the improved cloak 2s. All your covops cloaks require an improved cloak 2 so covops cloaks are going to be more expensive and tied to the price of the 2s. --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.04.15 22:38:00 - [21] Originally by: Tasuric Orka I see, well, if that's the case, ccp just needs to cut the amount of improved cloaks required, or just make em require none, and balance it out by increasing mineral requirements. Better idea: Lower build time on all improved cloak II BPOs by 33%. [23] Member: Official Forum Warrior What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
Ishen Villone	Posted - 2006.04.15 23:12:00 - [22] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Tasuric Orka I see, well, if that's the case, ccp just needs to cut the amount of improved cloaks required, or just make em require none, and balance it out by increasing mineral requirements. Better idea: Lower build time on all improved cloak II BPOs by 33%. Since one person has pretty much all of the improved cloak BPOs, this would not help much.
Slaveabuser	Posted - 2006.04.15 23:19:00 - [23] All t2 bpo owners should be listed then the community could kill them for the silly prices they charge. Death to the aristocracy! Killing the Minmatars since 22480 AD
Nyphur	Posted - 2006.04.15 23:20:00 - [24] Originally by: Slaveabuser All t2 bpo owners should be listed then the community could kill them for the silly prices they charge. Death to the aristocracy! Purchase one and find out for yourself. Unless they sell with alts. Which I bet they do... Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources.
Slaveabuser	Posted - 2006.04.15 23:22:00 - [25] Originally by: Nyphur Which I bet they do... Do you really have to bet? Killing the Minmatars since 22480 AD
Lisento Slaven	Posted - 2006.04.15 23:25:00 - [26] Originally by: Ishen Villone Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Tasuric Orka I see, well, if that's the case, ccp just needs to cut the amount of improved cloaks required, or just make em require none, and balance it out by increasing mineral requirements. Better idea: Lower build time on all improved cloak II BPOs by 33%. Since one person has pretty much all of the improved cloak BPOs, this would not help much. True...as long as one person really does own all of the BPO's to the IC 2's. If multiple people own them then the supply will be increased and prices will drop a tad. Best idea would be to introduce more BP's (BPC or BPO) to the market so that more people can compete in it.
Khatred	Posted - 2006.04.15 23:29:00 - [27] Edited by: Khatred on 15/04/2006 23:29:56 Originally by: Slaveabuser All t2 bpo owners should be listed then the community could kill them for the silly prices they charge. Death to the aristocracy! Power to the PEOPLE! Lynch mob, CHAAAARGE! _______________________________________________ Every time you whine a little HAC is destroyed. Please think of the little HACs
Nyphur	Posted - 2006.04.15 23:30:00 - [28] Originally by: Slaveabuser Originally by: Nyphur Which I bet they do... Do you really have to bet? Well I might make some money. Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources.
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.04.15 23:31:00 - [29] Originally by: Nyphur Originally by: Slaveabuser All t2 bpo owners should be listed then the community could kill them for the silly prices they charge. Death to the aristocracy! Purchase one and find out for yourself. Unless they sell with alts. Which I bet they do... No I don't. [23] Member: Official Forum Warrior What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.04.15 23:44:00 - [30] Originally by: Tasuric Orka You are the bpo hoarder!? No, I only own two T2 BPOs atm. Wish I was [23] Member: Official Forum Warrior What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
Alexi Borizkova	Posted - 2006.04.15 23:47:00 - [31] Originally by: Tasuric Orka You are the bpo hoarder!? And thus it was that a simple miscommunication caused a coalition of alliances larger than the besieging force of ec-p8r to form, spelling the doom of both shikari, and firmus ixion. In latter years, it became a stigma to have a well known forums persona, pressaging a new era of alts. This time eventually came to be known as the "Alt wars". In Corporate Caldari, taxes pay YOU.
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.04.15 23:48:00 - [32] Originally by: Alexi Borizkova Originally by: Tasuric Orka You are the bpo hoarder!? And thus it was that a simple miscommunication caused a coalition of alliances larger than the besieging force of ec-p8r to form, spelling the doom of both shikari, and firmus ixion. In latter years, it became a stigma to have a well known forums persona, pressaging a new era of alts. This time eventually came to be known as the "Alt wars". /whispers "Band of Brothers are the BPO hoarders." [23] Member: Official Forum Warrior What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
The Enslaver	Posted - 2006.04.16 00:02:00 - [33] Originally by: Nyphur Originally by: Slaveabuser All t2 bpo owners should be listed then the community could kill them for the silly prices they charge. Death to the aristocracy! Purchase one and find out for yourself. Unless they sell with alts. Which I bet they do... I don't? Well, my production alt sells it, but he is in the alliance along with my other chars. And its pretty much who's alt 'Enslaver's Economy' is. Anyway - the issue with improved cloaks is that one person owns like 18 of the 20 BPO's. The issue with Covert Ops Cloaks, is that one person own like 18 of the improved cloak BPO's. Now, if the amount of improved cloaks being produced wasn't being fixed, and the price wasn't being fixed on the improved cloak, there wouldn't be an issue with the covert cloak. Simple as tbh... -------- Shinra Director
Aversin	Posted - 2006.04.16 00:10:00 - [34] Originally by: Lisento Slaven Originally by: Ishen Villone Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Tasuric Orka I see, well, if that's the case, ccp just needs to cut the amount of improved cloaks required, or just make em require none, and balance it out by increasing mineral requirements. Better idea: Lower build time on all improved cloak II BPOs by 33%. Since one person has pretty much all of the improved cloak BPOs, this would not help much. True...as long as one person really does own all of the BPO's to the IC 2's. If multiple people own them then the supply will be increased and prices will drop a tad. Best idea would be to introduce more BP's (BPC or BPO) to the market so that more people can compete in it. I happen to know of 3 people who own improved cloak II bpo's, same with covert ops. (no none of those three people is me) so one person does not own all of them. Originally by: Razner Cerizo They will never quit. The beatings will continue until morale improves.
The Ratfink	Posted - 2006.04.16 00:11:00 - [35] Edited by: The Ratfink on 16/04/2006 00:12:09 The Enslaver sells cloak II Bpc's due to him being so busy he will only take orders in game so if you want a cheap bpc for 10 mil Convo or Eve-mail The Enslaver ingame
Baldour Ngarr	Posted - 2006.04.16 00:16:00 - [36] Originally by: The Enslaver Anyway - the issue with improved cloaks is that one person owns like 18 of the 20 BPO's. The issue with Covert Ops Cloaks, is that one person own like 18 of the improved cloak BPO's. It doesn't make a blind bit of difference if one person owns them all, or not. He still can't sell them for more than people are prepared to pay. The problem is that people are prepared to pay that much, so, the price is that much. ________________________________________________ "I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked."
Sonos SAGD	Posted - 2006.04.16 00:19:00 - [37] also even if they did release more bpo why would the new owners assuming that all of them are "new" owners(non alliance) why would they sell them for half of the current market price just because people are wanting that item ----------------------------------------------- I refuse to show you my real signature unless you give me isk
Tasuric Orka	Posted - 2006.04.16 00:29:00 - [38] Originally by: The Ratfink Edited by: The Ratfink on 16/04/2006 00:12:09 The Enslaver sells cloak II Bpc's due to him being so busy he will only take orders in game so if you want a cheap bpc for 10 mil Convo or Eve-mail The Enslaver ingame I'm so there, i'll pay 20 million upfront too. ________________________________________________ Hypocritical.
ArcticFox	Posted - 2006.04.16 00:30:00 - [39] Originally by: Baldour Ngarr It doesn't make a blind bit of difference if one person owns them all, or not. He still can't sell them for more than people are prepared to pay. The problem is that people are prepared to pay that much, so, the price is that much. Um, yes it does. Cov Ops are a vital enough part of fleet combat people will pay very highly for them, but this doesn't mean the price wouldn't be lower if the BPO ownership were more spread out. The price of an item isn't always the maximum anyone would ever be willing to pay. To say one person owning so many of BPOs makes no difference is just ridiculous. The fact is cloaks would not be so expensive if the BPO ownership weren't so one-sided, because while some people will still pay it since it's unavoidable, in a market with multiple suppliers they would have just gone to someone else if the guy they were buying from before tried to jack the price up to 50. In other words, the price hike isn't just fine and dandy just because people will pay it. The price hike could not have been pulled off if this guy didn't own so many of the BPOs (except by cartel, which is another thing alongside monopolies that real life governments outlaw, even though they're created by "natural market forces") ---------------------------------- "There's no +6 Sword of WTFPWN in Eve." - Er... Some person on the forum...
The Enslaver	Posted - 2006.04.16 01:04:00 - [40] Originally by: Baldour Ngarr Originally by: The Enslaver Anyway - the issue with improved cloaks is that one person owns like 18 of the 20 BPO's. The issue with Covert Ops Cloaks, is that one person own like 18 of the improved cloak BPO's. It doesn't make a blind bit of difference if one person owns them all, or not. He still can't sell them for more than people are prepared to pay. The problem is that people are prepared to pay that much, so, the price is that much. It does make a difference. He doesn't have anyone to compete with and can limit the amount released onto the open markets. No, he can't make people pay more than they are willing to - however, he can push it to the edge, without having to compete at all. -------- Shinra Director
Kylania	Posted - 2006.04.16 01:12:00 - [41] Originally by: Tasuric Orka Originally by: The Ratfink so if you want a cheap bpc for 10 mil I'm so there, i'll pay 20 million upfront too. ^^ There's your problem there, the seller was willing to accept 10m, someone with more ISK than god suddenly decides, hey, I'll double the price because I'm thinking of only myself, and suddenly.. the price becomes 20m. If ridicliously rich people would stop paying stupid prices for things, prices would fall. But that'll never happen. -- Lil Miner
Hakera	Posted - 2006.04.16 01:15:00 - [42] covert ops cloaks are the only t2 item which require another t2 item to make where the bpo's for the t1 item which are required are also limited and not readily availible handed out at an event iirc. Tbh having monopolies is all fine n dandy, they had the foresight to invest and corner a big market in eve, however the way cloaks are made make them too special, i think its only fair that proto cloak bpo's are made market availible. Though I would reocnsider the ingrediants for covert ops cloaks, a t2 items should not require another t2 item to make, both should require the proto cloak imo. tis a pity such liquid isk items exist such as power diagnostic 2's, cpr II's and so on which have such a huge demand and such a limited supply that prices & profit are so much in excess of what other t2 bpo's earn largely.
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.04.16 01:18:00 - [43] Originally by: Hakera covert ops cloaks are the only t2 item which require another t2 item to make where the bpo's for the t1 item which are required are also limited and not readily availible handed out at an event iirc. Don't Improved Cloak IIs also require Proto cloaks? [23] Member: Official Forum Warrior What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
Hakera	Posted - 2006.04.16 01:23:00 - [44] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Hakera covert ops cloaks are the only t2 item which require another t2 item to make where the bpo's for the t1 item which are required are also limited and not readily availible handed out at an event iirc. Don't Improved Cloak IIs also require Proto cloaks? yes, both do, but as i said uniquly, proto cloak bpos are as limited as t2 bpo's due to being an event reward.
Tasuric Orka	Posted - 2006.04.16 02:00:00 - [45] Originally by: Kylania Originally by: Tasuric Orka Originally by: The Ratfink so if you want a cheap bpc for 10 mil I'm so there, i'll pay 20 million upfront too. ^^ There's your problem there, the seller was willing to accept 10m, someone with more ISK than god suddenly decides, hey, I'll double the price because I'm thinking of only myself, and suddenly.. the price becomes 20m. If ridicliously rich people would stop paying stupid prices for things, prices would fall. But that'll never happen. I'm only worth about 30mil, i suppose noone got the "kidding" part. ________________________________________________ Hypocritical.
Silver Dragoness	Posted - 2006.04.16 05:39:00 - [46] Interesting without really doing that much work you can find that either one person doesn't own all the bpos... or he has alt accounts in different corps. NAGA - sell all types, TRUST - sells all types Dr. Scope - sells all types And I know of others that don't run storefronts or advertise. Are the prices insanely high? Yes. Is that a problem... no these are P.v.P. mods and in the overall scope of the game being able to have the supply logistics to support your fleet is important. Making everything cheap and available makes combat pointless. Any major alliance with any brains and isk would have bought the bpos back when proto cloaks where under 3 mil, improved 10, and covert 14-17. Or maybe they did........
Ashvul	Posted - 2006.04.16 07:33:00 - [47] Quote: Ask Naal Morno. naal told me you guys look like dorks.
Tuco Ramirez	Posted - 2006.10.11 17:13:00 - [48] I understand what has been said in this matter. I do believe this constitutes a classic monopoly despite what has been described as a restrictive supply of the T1 "prototypes". Not having seen the T1 BP, I cannot comment on how productive that BP might me. However, I have calculated that the material cost of manufacturing the T2 "improved" unit to be 500,000 ISK per unit (obviously not including the cost of the T1 prototype which exceeds the standard 10 million ISK in some systems). Yet the T2 does not sell for 12 million. It does not sell for 15 million. It usually sells for 20 million. Even counting researching costs, thats approximately 900% profit. I would not be suprised to find that the same is true of the T1 "prototype" BP. THAT is a monopoly. (I admit, my reckoning may be off, but all the components are relatively cheap and available here in Domain) What is worse is that those inflated prices simply add to the already insane T2 market in general, which in some cases, I will grant are caused by legitimate supply issues (Cap Recharger II was mentioned earlier). These prices also affect the escrow "market" for named items. The other day I saw a named cloaking device on escrow for 495 million ISK. What was truly sad about that item was that it was an improvement on the Prototype cloaking unit. The T2 cloaking unit was superior to this named item! I know, I know, this thread wasn't about the T2 market or escrow. The point of my tangent was unneccesarily inflated prices. Uh... WTB BPCs of T1 "Prototype", and T2 "Improved" cloaking devices. If you cant beat them, let me beat them!
Hakera Anari Higard	Posted - 2006.10.11 17:15:00 - [49] Edited by: Hakera on 11/10/2006 17:15:39 necro :p however it is a burning current issue I intend to ask Tuxford about at FF my old thread on the issue can be found here
MysticNZ Solstice Systems Development Concourse	Posted - 2006.10.11 17:46:00 - [50] They have been at 50m+ for a very long time. -=====- Xorus is teh nub :D I heard that beats player with big stick now be a good carebear and mine me some veldspar - Xorus
X ChaosX Caldari Panzershrek	Posted - 2006.10.11 21:10:00 - [51] Originally by: Kylania Originally by: Tasuric Orka Originally by: The Ratfink so if you want a cheap bpc for 10 mil I'm so there, i'll pay 20 million upfront too. ^^ There's your problem there, the seller was willing to accept 10m, someone with more ISK than god suddenly decides, hey, I'll double the price because I'm thinking of only myself, and suddenly.. the price becomes 20m. If ridicliously rich people would stop paying stupid prices for things, prices would fall. But that'll never happen. If the rich people need a cloak now and they can afford it, why should they wait months for the price to drop due to their 'boycott'. ______________________________________________ Originally by: Bill Shankly i see your another one of those lousy pirates that cant fight fair and call yourself apvper, what a joke u are.
Karoth Tyu FATAL REVELATIONS	Posted - 2006.10.11 21:32:00 - [52] I hope the upcoming "invention" feature trashes the T2 market and causes all T2 BPO monopolies to break up and their holders to crap their pants and boohoo into their pillows at night for months about how many billions of isk they will no longer receive a week, causing them to eventually liquidate all of their in-game assets, sell their characters on Ebay, rent an expensive red convertible, and inevitably drive it off a bridge into a deep canyon in a bout of terrible depression. But that's just me
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2006.10.11 21:45:00 - [53] Same old nonesense for everything t2. Flawed implementation has allowed for easily monopolized markets because of the poor choice ot implement a fixed number of bpo's for tech2. Instead of have limited run t2 bpos that are constantly being introduced to move around the suppliers. I don;t blame the player charging, I blame CCP for creating such a easily monopolized system, that totaly destroy's any risk reward concept supposedly ingrained in this game.
Khatred OMG I can post in the CAOD section now	Posted - 2006.10.11 21:49:00 - [54] Originally by: Karoth Tyu I hope the upcoming "invention" feature trashes the T2 market and causes all T2 BPO monopolies to break up and their holders to crap their pants and boohoo into their pillows at night for months about how many billions of isk they will no longer receive a week, causing them to eventually liquidate all of their in-game assets, sell their characters on Ebay, rent an expensive red convertible, and inevitably drive it off a bridge into a deep canyon in a bout of terrible depression. But that's just me The difference is that you wish that while I know that you will inevitably drive a car off a bridge into a deep canyon because that's what helpless people like you do. But that's just a rumour _______________________________________________ CondorKestrelMerlinGriffinHeronBantamAtronImicusIncursusMaulusNavitasTristanBreacherBurstProbe \o/ I got Eve content in my sig.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.11 21:50:00 - [55] Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 Same old nonesense for everything t2. Flawed implementation has allowed for easily monopolized markets because of the poor choice ot implement a fixed number of bpo's for tech2. Instead of have limited run t2 bpos that are constantly being introduced to move around the suppliers. I don;t blame the player charging, I blame CCP for creating such a easily monopolized system, that totaly destroy's any risk reward concept supposedly ingrained in this game. If you don't like it, don't buy it. Every time you complain about T2, Vagabond prices go up by 1M. --------- Cruelty is God's way of showing kindness and God is kind. Vagabond pilots want http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=405915
Karoth Tyu FATAL REVELATIONS	Posted - 2006.10.11 21:52:00 - [56] Originally by: Khatred The difference is that you wish that while I know that you will inevitably drive a car off a bridge into a deep canyon because that's what helpless people like you do. But that's just a rumour Gee whiz, a single tear is rolling down my fricken cheek while I type this
Father Weebles Panzershrek	Posted - 2006.10.11 22:03:00 - [57] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 Same old nonesense for everything t2. Flawed implementation has allowed for easily monopolized markets because of the poor choice ot implement a fixed number of bpo's for tech2. Instead of have limited run t2 bpos that are constantly being introduced to move around the suppliers. I don;t blame the player charging, I blame CCP for creating such a easily monopolized system, that totaly destroy's any risk reward concept supposedly ingrained in this game. If you don't like it, don't buy it. Every time you complain about T2, Vagabond prices go up by 1M. says 1 of the 8 vagabond bpo owners... "Welcome to EVE, where inflation is out of control."
Miss Overlord Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2006.10.11 22:04:00 - [58] 1 of 8 vagabond owners hey - mmm lucky fella
dailyhazard Caldari Cosmic Fusion	Posted - 2006.10.11 22:50:00 - [59] People pay 40-50m for them dont they if your the bpo owner i dont think your going to sit there "you know what im gonna cut my profits by half"
Dred'Pirate Jesus Imperial Academy	Posted - 2006.10.11 22:55:00 - [60] Considering you get almost total immunity to all forms of eve grief with a COCD II I'd say 40-50 mil is a cheap price to pay.. ( Granted you actually know how to fly a cov ops that is.. ) ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ [2:02:08] Dred'Pirate Jesus > I'm Mexican you dolt.. It's pronouced "hey zeus" not "gee zus" :
Oedus Caro Caldari Caldari Deep Space Ventures	Posted - 2006.10.11 23:45:00 - [61] Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Ahop Yol Is it just BPO owners correction: BPO owner. one guy owns pretty much all the COCDII bpos and so can charge whatever the **** he wants for them So um, whatever happened to antitrust law? Nerf his inventory!
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2006.10.12 00:02:00 - [62] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 Same old nonesense for everything t2. Flawed implementation has allowed for easily monopolized markets because of the poor choice ot implement a fixed number of bpo's for tech2. Instead of have limited run t2 bpos that are constantly being introduced to move around the suppliers. I don;t blame the player charging, I blame CCP for creating such a easily monopolized system, that totaly destroy's any risk reward concept supposedly ingrained in this game. If you don't like it, don't buy it. Every time you complain about T2, Vagabond prices go up by 1M. I don't buy it, but it doesnt mean the system isnt broken lol. you are just a lucky benificiary of an extremely broken aspect of EVE and lord knows why it has been allowed to last this long. Most every other broken risk vs reward aspect gets immediate fixing t2 market allowed to go on forever /boggle. Heck I would say the t2 monopoly is even more broke than the complex spawns, but those got fixed asap, atleast the complex farmers were at some risk, t2 bpo holder never have to undock and barely have to put any playtime in for thier ISK duping PS: You don;t have the guts to up your prices by 1 million for every complaint so save the tough talk lucky.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.12 00:05:00 - [63] Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 PS: You don;t have the guts to up your prices by 1 million for every complaint so save the tough talk lucky. CBA to read your post but saw the last sentence. Dont tempt me. --------- Cruelty is God's way of showing kindness and God is kind. Vagabond pilots want http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=405915
Flesh Eater	Posted - 2006.10.12 02:08:00 - [64] I'm sick of people who come in and claim to be experts on the eve economy coz they studied economics at uni or whatever. I'm sure Eve is sufficiently different to make such knowledge be of limited use. The supply and demand argument isn't really valid when we have a monopoly on the BPOs - people can just charge whatver they like. Also, unlike real life, we have GMs/Devs who can do anything they want to the environment - this is why people are making comments of what the prices should be, in the hope that changes will be made which affect prices. I don't think anyone can dispute that CCP can manipulate things to change prices of tech II modules fairly easily. Given this, it then depends on your values - are the centred on economics, or on the consumers- the people who have to spend money to get them. Unfortunately, in the real world, there is a massive value on economics - for example, Ive seen recently stories about how the economies of various countries might be ruined by rising waterlevels. In these very same articles, the fact that millions of people would be displaced and many die of disease was a side note. So, what should be done in Eve? Value the economy above the "quality of life" of the players, or change things so that players come first and pay the value which the devs envisioned that the tech II ships were worth.
zeKzn Empire of Destiny	Posted - 2006.10.12 02:15:00 - [65] The sheer number of people spouting vitriol about economics and evil rich people saddens me. It also explains why the US ends up funding the rest of the world's economies. If you haven't studied economics, dont try to talk about it, really. ____ Itty-Bitty Crow <3
Miss Overlord Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2006.10.12 02:26:00 - [66] kali is coming soon enough that will halve prices overnight- tho u may make a reasonable profit trading the new data cores
zeKzn Empire of Destiny	Posted - 2006.10.12 02:27:00 - [67] Originally by: Miss Overlord kali is coming soon enough that will halve prices overnight- tho u may make a reasonable profit trading the new data cores It wont be anywhere close to overnight, and the prices probably wont even halve. ____ Itty-Bitty Crow <3
Miss Overlord Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2006.10.12 02:33:00 - [68] u can assume the smart traders will begin to stockpile t1 cloaking devices before kali goesi n and quickly lock in supplies of the new fangled stuff once KALI goes in That said HACs will see the most benefit and AF prices might also be cut from 20-25m down to say 10 ot 15 mil
zeKzn Empire of Destiny	Posted - 2006.10.12 02:35:00 - [69] Originally by: Miss Overlord u can assume the smart traders will begin to stockpile t1 cloaking devices before kali goesi n and quickly lock in supplies of the new fangled stuff once KALI goes in That said HACs will see the most benefit and AF prices might also be cut from 20-25m down to say 10 ot 15 mil It still depends on just how much the invention process ends up costing people, as well as the time involved. The only thing that would be guaranteed to effectively halve prices is to double the amount of bpos and ensure they dont end up with the same guy. ____ Itty-Bitty Crow <3
Miss Overlord Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2006.10.12 02:36:00 - [70] Originally by: zeKzn Originally by: Miss Overlord u can assume the smart traders will begin to stockpile t1 cloaking devices before kali goesi n and quickly lock in supplies of the new fangled stuff once KALI goes in That said HACs will see the most benefit and AF prices might also be cut from 20-25m down to say 10 ot 15 mil It still depends on just how much the invention process ends up costing people, as well as the time involved. The only thing that would be guaranteed to effectively halve prices is to double the amount of bpos and ensure they dont end up with the same guy. im still in favour of agents giving out less t2 BPOs and more mid range 100 BPC run offers to a greater variety of ppl (and also perhaps overall boosting total supply by 30%) in cases where prices are out of sync.
zeKzn Empire of Destiny	Posted - 2006.10.12 02:39:00 - [71] What people dont realise is if you remove the opportunity to make obscene profits in the long run by going into the research/production path, the player economy would die a horrible, slow death. The only reason it works irl is because there's no option like running missions, and people have to make money somehow - in eve the opportunities have to exceed those available to pure mission farming, which is considerable. ____ Itty-Bitty Crow <3
Flesh Eater	Posted - 2006.10.12 03:13:00 - [72] Originally by: zeKzn Edit: Pretty much the only things that make EVE differ from a real world economy in any significant fashion are the lack of other currencies (although GTC sales ingame makes this not a huge difference, really) Originally by: zeKzn and the fact that CCP could, if they felt inclined to make SOE's mistake, tamper with the economy at will. Thats a pretty big difference.... Also: - The money is not real. It's just a game, people will be much more rash with their money in Eve than in real life. Economically, this could have many results... - Items can be recycled into minerals - Little market regulation in Eve. True capitalism requires the market to be "free", but that never happens in real life. ...Im sure there are craploads more differences in the eve economy and the real world economy. Having said that, there are probably more similarities than differences, but the differences (of which probably are not fully understood) shouldn't be ignored.
Brenda Bloom	Posted - 2006.10.12 03:14:00 - [73] Originally by: zeKzn Edited by: zeKzn on 12/10/2006 02:17:08 Edit: Pretty much the only things that make EVE differ from a real world economy in any significant fashion are the lack of other currencies (although GTC sales ingame makes this not a huge difference, really) and the fact that CCP could, if they felt inclined to make SOE's mistake, tamper with the economy at will. I guess you missed the part where this is a game and REAL PEOPLE can't add ideas and their own inventions to the game. Go back in time and tell Harrison Ford that he couldn't make the manufactoring of cars more efficient. Or hey, go tell some generic soda manufactorer that they can't make their cheap, knock-off Coke-Cola because Coke-Cola did it first, and god gave them and ONLY THEM the blueprints to make it. Get a clue please, comparing the economy to EvE to real life is like comparing apples to oranges. Yes, CCP put time and effort into it but it has it's flaws and this is also a game.
Wrayeth Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.12 03:36:00 - [74] Edited by: Wrayeth on 12/10/2006 03:36:53 Originally by: Brenda Bloom Go back in time and tell Harrison Ford that he couldn't make the manufactoring of cars more efficient. Harrison Ford is a manufacturing guru? In all seriousness, if I remember correctly it was HENRY Ford. -Wrayeth "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
zeKzn Empire of Destiny	Posted - 2006.10.12 03:37:00 - [75] Edited by: zeKzn on 12/10/2006 03:42:05 Originally by: Flesh Eater Also: - The money is not real. It's just a game, people will be much more rash with their money in Eve than in real life. Economically, this could have many results... Its as real as any money you've ever used. Money has no value except that attached to it by people, the value of the paper your money is printed on is very little removed from the value of the code that represents a single ISK, or whatever. Find me proof that people are more rash with their money in EVE as opposed to RL that isn't a direct result of the circumstances present in EVE, and I may relent on this point. Quote: - Items can be recycled into minerals And? Edit: Furthermore, this isn't a difference. You can do this irl as well, its just not very cost-effective. Quote: - Little market regulation in Eve. True capitalism requires the market to be "free", but that never happens in real life. Economics is not the study of real life. Economics is the study of economic forces in action. Yes, regulation occurs more than it should irl, but it doesn't (thank god) occur almost at all in EVE. This is the result of such unbridled capitalism, and frankly I fail to see the downside from an economic standpoint. The only downside is for selfish idiots who think only of themselves, rather than the economy as a whole. Rather like RL, in that regard. Quote: ...Im sure there are craploads more differences in the eve economy and the real world economy. Having said that, there are probably more similarities than differences, but the differences (of which probably are not fully understood) shouldn't be ignored. Until you can name them they are essentially meaningless. Making decisions based on the existance (or lack thereof) of differences, and moreover differences that we do not understand, is out of the question. As for CCP's ability to tamper, it would be a big difference if you compared it to the US, yes, but not for some economies. Moreover, CCP crucially doesn't tamper, which renders the difference meaningless until they do. ____ Itty-Bitty Crow <3
zeKzn Empire of Destiny	Posted - 2006.10.12 03:40:00 - [76] Originally by: Brenda Bloom I guess you missed the part where this is a game and REAL PEOPLE can't add ideas and their own inventions to the game. Go back in time and tell Harrison Ford that he couldn't make the manufactoring of cars more efficient. Or hey, go tell some generic soda manufactorer that they can't make their cheap, knock-off Coke-Cola because Coke-Cola did it first, and god gave them and ONLY THEM the blueprints to make it. Get a clue please, comparing the economy to EvE to real life is like comparing apples to oranges. Yes, CCP put time and effort into it but it has it's flaws and this is also a game. I guess you missed the fact that theses have been written comparing MMO economies to RL economies. I guess you missed the giant thread that essentially proved that "its a game" is an utterly meaningless statement. Of course there are differences, because ultimately nobody could code something that would allow for what you're suggesting. But really, even irl, "real people" cant add ideas and inventions of their own very often, because of the amount of education, work, marketing, and capital involved in the process. I think you need to think out your replies a bit more instead of relying on playing the "lol u r a loser" card to win you arguments. ____ Itty-Bitty Crow <3
Dred'Pirate Jesus Imperial Academy	Posted - 2006.10.12 03:59:00 - [77] Originally by: Brenda Bloom Go back in time and tell Harrison Ford that he couldn't make the manufactoring of cars more efficient. And if they didn't he'd get Chewy to rip their arms out.. I think you mean 'Henry' ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ [2:02:08] Dred'Pirate Jesus > I'm Mexican you dolt.. It's pronouced "hey zeus" not "gee zus" :
Villaine Vangard	Posted - 2006.10.12 03:59:00 - [78] well, at least its a game. they should introduce mechanics to make wars about T2 BPOs. has there ever been one? didnt hear about that. maybe T2 production only possible in lowsec to make them more "conquerable"? make the names of T2 producers public. well alts, ok. maybe theres a possibility to do it anyway. well these ideas arent supposed to be good... my point is: enforce war about T2 BPOs ___________________________________________ my main says i look good
Feta Solamnia	Posted - 2006.10.12 04:40:00 - [79] Edited by: Feta Solamnia on 12/10/2006 04:40:37 Neither proto or impro prices/supply have anything to do with the covops cloak prices (last I checked the market was like 1-2 months ago). I won't bother re-iterating the argument for the 3rd time, check my post history. I highly doubt that Naal has anything close to 18 of the prints. I have been informed that he did indeed have 3 or 4 somewhere in the past + the prodchain of the other 2 cloaks. Now, that was 6 months ago. I see no possible way for him, even if investing 100% of profits and ganking the bpo owners 23/7 to get remotely close to 18 out of 20 prints. Take a look around. Check the killboards. You will see that the cloaking recon cruisers are VERY popular. And they do tend to die a lot (even though this has no effect as long as 100% produce is sold, which it seems to be true at least for the amarr one). Stable supply, hopping mad fresh demand. I don't see a cap on the cloak prices anywhere below 100m, unless invention changes something. Originally by: Oveur I have access to all market data. Believe me, we have not reached anything close to deflation yet.
DuckM4n Vo	Posted - 2006.10.12 05:11:00 - [80] well if its tooo expensive then dont buy it, wait for kali and its promised invention and such,
Arashi Miike Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.12 05:39:00 - [81] Originally by: zeKzn Edit: Not to mention you can make cheap knock off copies of t2 gear. Its called t1. This is true for many (most) T2 items in EVE. However, there are a few T2 ships and mods that can do things that no T1 item can do. For example: A T1 Cap Recharger and a T2 Cap Recharger do essentially the same thing. Both decrease your capacitor's recharge time by a percent. The T2 version just gives you a greater percent decrease. Similarly, a Thorax and a Deimos do essentially the same things, the Deimos just does them better. (higher resists, extra damage bonus, ect.) However, this is not the case with all T2 items, most notably with cloaking. If you want to warp while cloaked, you absolutely need a Covert Ops or Recon ship with a Covert Ops cloak. There is no T1 equivalent that can do that, except a bit worse. "I should have been a pair of ragged claws/ scuttling across the floors of silent seas."
zeKzn Empire of Destiny	Posted - 2006.10.12 05:45:00 - [82] and for that kind of unique ability that cannot be cheaply knocked off, would it not make sense that the price rises far above that where there are t1 subsitutes, however bad those substitutes are? _______ zeKzn - Empire of Destiny mods go here :>
Bermag Point-Zero Ratel Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.12 09:02:00 - [83] One big difference between real life market and T2 market in Eve is that in real world you can always increase supply, even if it is expensive. But with T2 you can never increase supply. I think cloaking device market might be a problem even in Kali. To make a T2 cloak you not only need to get the bpc for covert cloaking device from invention, which by itself require a T1 bpc, which doesn't even exist. On top of that you still need a improved cloaking device II (whcih in turn require a prototype cloaking device) to make it. If it will even work. I am afraid that cloaking devices will be on of those that devs will say "oops didn't think about that" And how will yuo make a prototype cloaking device? It is in reality a T2 module (require T2 components etc) but there are no T1 item to use for inventing a bpc.
Ka Lok	Posted - 2006.10.12 09:17:00 - [84] Originally by: zeKzn Edited by: zeKzn on 12/10/2006 02:17:08 It also explains why the US ends up funding the rest of the world's economies. If you haven't studied economics, dont try to talk about it, really. this made me LOL, please follow your own advise...
Morpheus Solo Minmatar Solaris Technologies Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.12 09:24:00 - [85] You can all take it easy about the high T2 proces on some items, like cov ops II, car II and hulk for example. When Kali releases inventions those price are history very quickly
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.10.12 09:56:00 - [86] Now I see t2 covops cloak sold on 70-75kk. What a great idea with lottery, CCP! FYI, t2 covops cloak is absolute requirement for the operating in 0.0. This device will be bought at any price. Possibly even 200kk do not stop buying. And now one person monopolize whole market... P.S. CCP, stop this madness, please.
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.12 10:04:00 - [87] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 12/10/2006 00:07:11 Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 PS: You don;t have the guts to up your prices by 1 million for every complaint so save the tough talk lucky. CBA to read your post but saw the last sentence. Dont tempt me. When Vagabonds reach 400M, the whole Vagabond community might want to taste your blood. coughinventioncough And which ship is everyone going to get BPC's for I wonder? Clue: It won't be the Guardian. Get ready for a market correction.
Agama Dragons Of Redemption Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.10.12 22:22:00 - [88] Originally by: Butter Dog Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 12/10/2006 00:07:11 Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 PS: You don;t have the guts to up your prices by 1 million for every complaint so save the tough talk lucky. CBA to read your post but saw the last sentence. Dont tempt me. When Vagabonds reach 400M, the whole Vagabond community might want to taste your blood. coughinventioncough And which ship is everyone going to get BPC's for I wonder? Clue: It won't be the Guardian. Get ready for a market correction. Speaking for myself....its this kind of price madness that basically was the final straw that made stop bothering to traing for HACs, Force Recons, etc. Its just nuts. I really hope that the whole Kali invention feature will fix all of this up. However, as stated before.....there looks like there is no hope for the cloaks. Side note -> If the server population has doubled....what don't they at least seed more BPO's? 'Death solves all problems- no man, no problem' J.V. Stalin, 1918
Nymos Celtic Anarchy Black Reign Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.13 08:50:00 - [89] how could innovation drive down the prices of cov ops cloaks? (they're >70m in the forge atm. the cloak costs 8-10 times as much as a cov ops frigate and as much as force recon ships) what i mean is, how will one be able to innovate a cloaking device that has no tech1 counterpart? someone said prototype cloaks were seeded by events so basically there's no way to increase supply because there is no t1 blueprint to innovate. --
Faruda	Posted - 2006.10.13 11:12:00 - [90] Do not understand what game CCP is playing with their ashamed BPO lottery? Evident, that increased player base increase demand for modules. In normal world increased demands usually leads to increasing offer. In Eve it always leads to increasing price. Evident, that Eve t2 market could be monopolized very quickly(e-bay is straightforward road). In normal world monopoly is regulated by the law. In CCP monopoly dictates conditions. Consequences. As far as I know, CCP want people move to 0.0. Good idea. Even excellent idea. But there is one problem, without *reasonably cheap t2 equipment existance for noobs nad their noob corps in 0.0 area will be short and painful.
Miss Overlord Gallente EUROPEANS	Posted - 2006.10.13 11:22:00 - [91] heard of factional items , at least with rigs and invetnion it will reduce some of the more extreme t2 prices. But will wait and see what kali brings in terms of nerfs and boostings
Lucre STK Scientific Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.13 11:34:00 - [92] If you think the price of cloaks is bad now, just think what it'll be like if CCP fix the cyno/cloak bug on recon ships! Oh, or for that matter if they decided covops ships needed a boost to their bonus/stats...
StarStryder Wise Guys	Posted - 2006.10.13 12:16:00 - [93] Edited by: StarStryder on 13/10/2006 12:18:25 I think it's been said before but could do with re-iterating. COCDs are in another unique (or at least rare) position in that they offer functionality that their t1 counterparts don't. T2 modules simply do what T1 modules do, they just do it better. The Proto/Improved Cloak relationship fits this. However, the COCD has no t1 equiavalent since no t1 modules let's you warp while cloaked. How about this for an idea. Introduce a COCD 1 module that is similar to the t2 version but has ONE for the following restrictions (pick one): a) 50% speed reduction. b) can be penetrated by ships with high sensor strength (ie one's with sensor boosters). c) has a random chance to success/failure each cycle, sort of like EW modules. The cycle duration might need to be tweaked for this. You'd then have the standard cloaks (proto and improved II) as they exist now, ****ble to any ship, including the cov ops ships if you wanted. And then you'd have the COCDs with need a cov ops ship. The COCD II would require a COCD I to build. The cost of COCD I can be set by CCP via the blueprint cost and minerals required. Oh, and release the proto cloak bpo too. Why the hell does it filter F I T T A which as far as I can see means either "Foreign Investment and Technology Transfer Act" or "Fixed Term Training Appointment"?*
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2006.10.13 12:21:00 - [94] Allthough having these modules a bit cheaper, whats the point? Only thing restricting people are the prices. If a arazu goes for 200 mil and cloak device for 200 mil, people would still buy em. Only thing that sucks is the fact that the same people keep getting this ammount of money. This proves that money attracts money. Once your in, it will only get better. History has also shown that all the things CCP did to reduce T2 prices has only risen it. Can you remember T2 parts being rewarded from agents? And how stopping would thrive the prices down, i dont think so... _________________________________________________
Tar om Minmatar Octavian Vanguard RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.13 12:40:00 - [95] Edited by: Tar om on 13/10/2006 12:41:28 Its hardly surprising that there is a small superclass of rich players in a capitalist economy. It may be unfair but its certainly realistic. 10% of the population in the USA own 80% of the wealth. I'd expect the figures in EVE to be similar. Remember - Money makes Money. You don't have to be smart to get rich, just rich. If you've got enough cash you can hire smart people to make your money grow while you spend quality time on your yacht with your groupies. -- We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net "The belief in the possibility of a short decisive war appears to be one of the most ancient and dangerous of human illusions."
Flowerpot	Posted - 2006.10.13 13:24:00 - [96] Originally by: zeKzn Edited by: zeKzn on 12/10/2006 02:17:08 The sheer number of people spouting vitriol about economics and evil rich people saddens me. It also explains why the US ends up funding the rest of the world's economies. If you haven't studied economics, dont try to talk about it, really. I thought the US sucked money out of other economies. Trade deficit ring any bells ? I have studied economics and you sir are a turnip.
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.13 13:33:00 - [97] Haha, yes, the US is funding the other economies in the world. Fun one that. Let's not go into that because that's sure to get out of hand. The t1 cloak, improved t2 cloak or covops t2 cloak bpo's are not monopolised as much as some people state here. That is for sure. What they are is either in the hands of a certian individual, or in the hands of a select few alliances, making for very few cloaks ot produced by the certain individual reaching the open market seeing how the alliances are probably using the few they will have left over to trade for other neat tech2 stuff htey can't produce themselves. Face it, most tech2 produced in Eve never sees a market window. And that's nothing less then logical seeing the distribution of power within the galaxy, it reflects the effort and organisation put into the game by it's players quite well, and thus is a consequence instead of a cause of inequality. But what was it that Eve was not ? Right, fair. Old blog
Sir JoJo Minmatar Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.13 13:38:00 - [98] could be fun if tis ONE guy decided eve aint hes game anymore and canncled hess acc and would be a while whit basilly no COCD II ;) back to the old fashion ways of scouting ;) [center] [red]These http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=405987Rules are a disgrase to the Minmatar[/u
Braaage eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.13 14:07:00 - [99] Facts There is more than 1 Covert Ops Cloak II BPO owner in game so there's no single monopoly of the item. The CCO II needs another T2 cloak to make it which is on market at 40-50Mill before you even get the CCO II in the cooker. The Tree for the CCO II is a Prototype cloaking device 1 turn it into an Improved Cloaking device II which is then used to make the CCO II. This is why the CCO II is so expensive as it's currently selling for between 70-80m depending on region. If the price of the Improved cloak drops then the price of the CCO II cloak may drop. ___________________________________________ http://www.eve-tutor.com Picture based tutorial site for EVE-Online
Centurin Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2006.10.13 14:36:00 - [100] It's a shame that invention will not address t2 cloaks. Although, I never expected it to make any difference to begin with. CCP has no reason to change things. Invention is just a water bottle to help put out the forest fire flames about t2 that are on the forums. The T2 lottery breeds monopolies. EVE economics is flawed. The only people who disagree are T2 BPO owners. In Real world economics, monopolies are illegal. True capitalism without regulation will eventually lead to nothing but monopolies. Such is the state of EVE. ----------------------------------------------- "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings" - Optimus Prime
Faruda	Posted - 2006.10.13 14:52:00 - [101] Originally by: Braaage Facts There is more than 1 Covert Ops Cloak II BPO owner in game so there's no single monopoly of the item. Cartel agrement between producers. And we have single monopoly. Any problems? There are two possible solution(not breaking market and economics) : 1. Drastically increase number of BPO's, lets say twenty-fifty- times. And in this case possibly market will be driven by supply/demand. It is quick and dirty solution. 2. Liquidate whole system of the BPO's lottery and replace it with BPC obtained on regular basis(like offer from the normal agents). In this case increase in costs of smth t2,let's say Cap Rech 2, will immediately increase number of people trying to get this type BPC from the corresponding R&D agents. And vice versa, dropping of price for smth will decrease number of people reserching this smth. We have self regulated market.
zeKzn Empire of Destiny	Posted - 2006.10.13 15:44:00 - [102] Edited by: zeKzn on 13/10/2006 15:46:45 Edited by: zeKzn on 13/10/2006 15:45:17 Originally by: Flowerpot I thought the US sucked money out of other economies. Trade deficit ring any bells ? I have studied economics and you sir are a turnip. You lack a basic understanding of the fundamental cycle of a open market. The US trade deficit is the evidence that the US is funding other economies. If the US wasn't importing massive amounts from everywhere else, the countries it imports from would, for the most part, go into an instant recession. A trade deficit means you're injecting money into the countries you trade from, not sucking it out. Are you absolutely sure you ever studied economics? Edit: Actually the reason is more to do with the fact that the dollar is vastly overvalued, but whatever - the rest of my post still stands and nobody has yet managed to address it with anything but a "wah, i want t2 too" argument. _______ zeKzn - Empire of Destiny mods go here :>
zeKzn Empire of Destiny	Posted - 2006.10.13 15:50:00 - [103] Edited by: zeKzn on 13/10/2006 15:51:08 Originally by: Faruda Cartel agrement between producers. And we have single monopoly. Any problems? Just one, rather glaring one. Cartels are inherently unstable, and with the exception of OPEC every single cartel ever attempted in the world has fallen apart rather quickly. Edit: With a few exceptions, I am certain. I just dont know of them. Originally by: Faruda There are two possible solution(not breaking market and economics) : 1. Drastically increase number of BPO's, lets say twenty-fifty- times. And in this case possibly market will be driven by supply/demand. It is quick and dirty solution. You haven't yet shown that there is a problem. As someone else pointed out, supply is pretty much entirely inelastic in the t2 market, due to the mechanics of BPOs, so prices will remain high. All your "solution" would achieve is to throw the entire t2 market into absolute havoc for a while. Originally by: Faruda 2. Liquidate whole system of the BPO's lottery and replace it with BPC obtained on regular basis(like offer from the normal agents). In this case increase in costs of smth t2,let's say Cap Rech 2, will immediately increase number of people trying to get this type BPC from the corresponding R&D agents. And vice versa, dropping of price for smth will decrease number of people reserching this smth. We have self regulated market. This would work better, at least in the sense it drops barriers to entry of the market. I would still say that if people aren't given the small opportunities to make absolutely obscene sums of money by playing the market game instead of running missions, nobody would do it. _______ zeKzn - Empire of Destiny mods go here :>
Naal Morno ECP Rogues Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.13 15:52:00 - [104] Hello. Covert ops II prices are dictated by Improved Cloaking Device II prices as each covert uses one improved in manufacturing process as an ingredient. Please check prices on improved cloaks and redirect your anger to people who gouged the market to such price levels. I hope this sheds some light on the price of covert ops II and possibly makes me less evil. Cheers _________________________________________ The cloaky orchestrator
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.13 15:52:00 - [105] Edited by: Butter Dog on 13/10/2006 15:52:28 Originally by: zeKzn Edited by: zeKzn on 13/10/2006 15:46:45 Edited by: zeKzn on 13/10/2006 15:45:17 Originally by: Flowerpot I thought the US sucked money out of other economies. Trade deficit ring any bells ? I have studied economics and you sir are a turnip. You lack a basic understanding of the fundamental cycle of a open market. The US trade deficit is the evidence that the US is funding other economies. If the US wasn't importing massive amounts from everywhere else, the countries it imports from would, for the most part, go into an instant recession. A trade deficit means you're injecting money into the countries you trade from, not sucking it out. Are you absolutely sure you ever studied economics? Edit: Actually the reason is more to do with the fact that the dollar is vastly overvalued, but whatever - the rest of my post still stands and nobody has yet managed to address it with anything but a "wah, i want t2 too" argument. It is true that a trade defecit means you are consuming more than you produce. However, there is only so much money sloshing about in the global economy. SOMEONE, somewhere, has to provide the money for the US to go on its spending spree. And who is it? The rest of the world, buying dollars and US government bonds. This allows the US to fund its trade defecit. So, in actual fact, the money the US is pouring into other economies by consuming more than it produces, is actually borrowed from other economies to begin with. You cannot spend more than you earn without borrowing it from someone else. This applies to nations as well as individuals.
zeKzn Empire of Destiny	Posted - 2006.10.13 15:57:00 - [106] Originally by: Butter Dog It is true that a trade defecit means you are consuming more than you produce. However, there is only so much money sloshing about in the global economy. SOMEONE, somewhere, has to provide the money for the US to go on its spending spree. And who is it? The rest of the world, buying dollars and US government bonds. This allows the US to fund its trade defecit. So, in actual fact, the money the US is pouring into other economies by consuming more than it produces, is actually borrowed from other economies to being with. This is exactly why the US dollar is hugely overvalued. It is also, I believe, the fact nobody is willing to risk letting the dollar fall. You aren't mentioning the fact that the US still has to guarantee whatever the rates they're paying on their bonds these days are. Your argument is also somewhat misleading. The bonds purchased give more money to the US government, who are most certainly not the ones directly responsible for the outflow of money from the US. Granted, it still increases the US money supply overall, but because various people are pressuring the US to prop the dollar up and basically continue down the path to ruin they are taking, it has little to no effect except to provide more money to then be spent on imports. Its certainly not the evil US stealing money from other countries and not giving them anything back - if it were nobody would do it anymore. The fact remains that due to the US being willing to effectively ruin itself to hold the entire global economy above a recession, it is the most effective investment any country as a whole could make. _______ zeKzn - Empire of Destiny mods go here :>
Brem Watson Caldari Nexus-6	Posted - 2006.10.13 16:39:00 - [107] Saw a Cov Ops Cloak II for 74 mil last night.
Penumbral Shadow	Posted - 2006.11.01 01:46:00 - [108] Edited by: Penumbral Shadow on 01/11/2006 01:49:07 you know, as a new cov ops pilot, and not a overly rich character, the price to fit the ship is a bit daunting. the loss of a 75 million isk module that i need to make my 5 million isk ship work right would seriously hurt my ability to continue as a cov ops pilot should i loose it. now granted, im still some what new, and dont have a billion isk at my disposal, but the price just seems daunting to me. to me thats almost another raven, or megathron. personaly i think the price needs to come down somehow. Im all for people earning profit, but if i loose one, i wont be buying another one for about a week while i remake the isk back. ( especially after all the loot drop nerfs ) i actually even see plenty of supply on the market. the supply is there. so tuxford.. while you are nerfing all that is good... how about finding a way to nerf the price so i can afford to go do what i specialised for... or donate an obscene amount of isk to me so i dont care :-P because thats what it really comes down to, being able to afford doing what you want in the game. loss is inevitable. and working to replace your loss is fine... would just be nice if replacement didnt hurt so bad. ( this is the part where everyone who is already bathing in obscene wealth tells me to just get over it :-P )
Valkazm Amarr Cursed Spawn SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.01 01:51:00 - [109] There worth it though Cursed Spawn recruitment
El Yatta Caldari Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2006.11.01 02:03:00 - [110] Originally by: Rod Blaine Face it, most tech2 produced in Eve never sees a market window. And that's nothing less then logical seeing the distribution of power within the galaxy, it reflects the effort and organisation put into the game by it's players quite well, and thus is a consequence instead of a cause of inequality. But what was it that Eve was not ? Right, fair. This is most certainly true, and is of course a very cool part of EVE - that those with the cunning, skill (and above all grind-tastic effort) can dominate a technology area and help deny it to their enemies, while ensuring they have an excellent supply. Its quite a cool thing. What the problem is, is that the specific mechanics of t2 mean there are only 20 BPOs of a non-ammo t2 item, and therefore you can only acquire that advantage over enemies in portions of 1/20th the supply to the ENTIRE game. Its too large chunks, because (separate from the intended and cool denial of tech to your enemy) it denies it to people who are completely separate from you and aren't fighting you, small scale or strategically, who want access to a very large area of the game. These people, the small guys, the small combat corps and that, cant expect to have a BPO, 1 bpo produces far more than their need, and certainly every small entity cant have 1/20 of the supply of an item to the game. This is why, if it works as intended, invention is such a brilliant solution. It allows the small guy to, if he had equal logistics (scaled down for pure m3)and ability can produce his own t2 in high-demand, silly-price areas, (the HACs, the 425s, the cap2s), at decreased efficiency, yet still meeting his demands. He doesnt need the BPO but he does need the logistics/effort that the big-boys needed to get and use the BPOs. I dont beleive it will greatly change market prices though. It is also awful that COCDs cannot be invented (t2 BPCs cant be invented, so even if you had the proto cloak bpo seeded you wont be inventing improved --> covops). ---\|\|---
Phrixus Zephyr Yesodic Nomads Corp Triumvirate.	Posted - 2006.11.01 02:30:00 - [111] Edited by: Phrixus Zephyr on 01/11/2006 02:30:09 So basicly even with invention use need to role the dice on an T2 Improved, then role the dice again on a T2 Cov ops. I don't get why its the only T2 item thats dependant on another T2 item. The prior's prices being utterly dependant on the latter, and the latter always upping his price if he thinks the prior is making more than him. Borked.. Glad i picked my T2 Covops cloaks from the rubble of other people's ships.
Naal Morno ECP Rogues Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.01 02:44:00 - [112] Originally by: Phrixus Zephyr Edited by: Phrixus Zephyr on 01/11/2006 02:30:09 So basicly even with invention use need to role the dice on an T2 Improved, then role the dice again on a T2 Cov ops. I don't get why its the only T2 item thats dependant on another T2 item. The prior's prices being utterly dependant on the latter, and the latter always upping his price if he thinks the prior is making more than him. Borked.. Glad i picked my T2 Covops cloaks from the rubble of other people's ships. See, you don't have to spend 75mil on cloak after all _________________________________________ Once I thought T2 BPO Lottery is a problem... Then I've become a part of problem and I relized that previously I was just plain jealous.
Celeste Coeval	Posted - 2006.11.01 23:48:00 - [113] Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus I'm happy with the COCD II prices much like I am with HAC prices.. Can't have every nub who can train up cloaking or heavy assult to have one now can we? I think it would be less of a game if cov ops and HACs were commonplace due to cheapness of price.. I mean the 'Elite' in the name tag should mean more than just being able to fly it.. you should also have the burden of affording it too to keep them truly 'Elite' ships.. I agree, I'm fairly new to eve and i think these components shouldn't be available to all at low prices. Why? Because then they get used for covert ops and for those that can afford it as a special mod for their ships. It is not your right to own a cloak its a choice. This choice comes with a price pay or dont.
Bermag Point-Zero Ratel Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.02 08:21:00 - [114] The problem with covert op cloaks is not an evil cartel on cov op cloaks (or improved cloaks) it is just to low supply compared to demand. What do you think will happen if cloak producers start selling at cost price? Someone would buy all cloaks and mark up the prices to current levels because people are prepared to pay that. Prices will be high until supply is increased. But I am afraid that invention might not help with this. **** prices is just getting worse and worse, 2 months ago I bought a cov op cloak for 55 mill now they are 70 mill+
Ztrain Vanguard Frontiers Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.03 10:15:00 - [115] Problem solved. Fifteen US bucks get you a pair of really nice cov ops cloaks at current market value. You can ether get time cards and try to auction them off or just talk to some of the guy's over at Red Alliance I'm sure they'd be more then happy to cut yah a deal. In your safespot killin your doods!

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