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Brutor Trash
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 03:33:00 -
[1] - Quote
PLEASE CITIZENS OF NEW EDEN, EXPRESS YOUR OPINION ON THE CURRENT STATE OF RLML BY VOTING ON THE POLL.
http://poll.pollcode.com/59636175 |

Arthur Aihaken
Perkone Caldari State
2970
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 03:42:00 -
[2] - Quote
Do we really need a poll?  I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

scimichar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
170
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 03:44:00 -
[3] - Quote
but waiting 35 seconds for reload creates tension |

Brutor Trash
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 03:44:00 -
[4] - Quote
WE NEED POLL BECAUSE SHITPOSTING DIDN'T WORK.
OKAY RGR. THANK YOU OBAMA. |

Rendiff
Funk Soul Brothers Bloodline.
58
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 03:49:00 -
[5] - Quote
Caps lock is cruise control for cool. |

Brutor Trash
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 03:50:00 -
[6] - Quote
Dalikah wrote: Just to reply to your latest post Rise:
The 40s reload timer: Do you really feel like a 40s period of not being able to effectively defend yourself against tackle is not a deal-breaker, when an Interceptor is going to be able to pass 2 systems and tackle you in this amount of time with Rubicon? And why would one ever invest 2-300m ISK into a HAC that can do nothing but warp in, kill a few Frigates and is then either useless for 40s or forced off? The same problem comes with the inability to switch ammo efficently, an Enyo can appear basically out of nowhere within seconds, render your kinetic missiles useless and force a reload - good luck kiting long enough to reload and kill an MWD-bonused AF.
Also, yes, RLML deal a whole lot of damage to MWDing T1-frigs, and a reasonable amount to AFs, but have you ever actually looked at a DPS graph against a properly fitted Interceptor backed up by the Rubicon changes? A current 3x BCU Cerberus does 90 DPS to a Malediction using faction missiles, which means it would take almost 40 seconds (or 30s with precision) to kill it . That sounds reasonable and well balanced, why does it have to change? Yes, nice, it will take less time with the ROF changes, but you-&re not going to kill more than 1-2 before you have to reload, which is nothing but a bad joke (this also assumes no links, no heat and ignores the greatly reduced range through the Ceptor-&s high speed). And this is just about the Cerberus, the by far highest-DPS RLML platform - others like Caracal and Fleet Scythe would suffer even more.
You also state that the front-loaded DPS and ridiculous reload will bring "new kinds of decision making" and "spikes of tension", which basically translates to more tactical gameplay. This is simply completely false. Missiles in general already tend to offer slightly less tactical and piloting options than turret ships in return for a more reliable dps output, just because the whole mechanics around transversal and maneuvers to force people into taking more damage from your weapons do not really exist in missile based combat. Instead, you have the immunity to tracking disruption, resistance to ECM and damps via FoFs as well as (semi-)fully selectable damagetypes - your changes would make all of those bar the td-immunity more or less obsolete in the heat of a fight. This leaves us with a very dull and stale weapon system, that basically only allows 1 tactic: choose ammo, warp in, try to gank the lowest ehp ship(s), burn off/warp off/die. This offers no diversity, no ability to react to changing circumstances in a reasonable amount of time (i.e. new incoming tackle, need of max (fury) dps, etc), simply no interesting nor challenging gameplay.
If you really feel like RLML are slightly overpowered in their current state (I don-&t see people shooting monuments over RLML so they can-&t be ridiculously strong and need a nerf into the ground, like you proposed here), then reduce their damage application and volley by a little, then see how things go.
I appreciate the fact that you want to try out new ideas and concepts, and the basic idea of front-loaded dps or swarm-missiles surely has potential, but it-&s nothing to bring up 1.5 weeks before the patch goes live, nor something to replace "normal" launchers with - throw them onto Singularity along with tweaks to the "normal" RLML, give people time to test them out. gather data, adjust accordingly and consider a further rebalancing of RLML with Rubicon 1.1 (the changes in powergrid need already are a bit of nerf for now, aren-&t they). You even basically admitted yourself that making such drastic changes to a popular weapon does bring a lot of problems with it if not part of the future entire module/weapon tiericide and rebalancing - so please take yourself some time and think about your ideas again. In fact, with the shifts of the Eve meta towards Cruisers/HACs and away from battlecruisers, reverting the nerf to HML application might be an interesting move on Singularity to see how people react and adapt, and then look at RLML again and ask yourself if they really are/were too strong, or the other medium sized missile systems too weak.
#KNOW ;LEDGE |
|

ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
971

|
Posted - 2014.03.05 19:54:00 -
[7] - Quote
This thread has been moved to Ships & Modules. Oh, and please stop SHOU....eh....using capslock in your entire post. ISD Ezwal Commander Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|

Gregor Parud
274
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 19:57:00 -
[8] - Quote
Rendiff wrote:Caps lock is cruise control for cool.
No.
|

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
3596
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 20:23:00 -
[9] - Quote
I think the long reload timer is alright. I just think the clip size needs to be increased some.... |

Jester Cap
A better day
15
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 22:35:00 -
[10] - Quote
Brutor Trash wrote:----------------------- Dalikah wrote: Just to reply to your latest post Rise:
The 40s reload timer: Do you really feel like a 40s period of not being able to effectively defend yourself against tackle is not a deal-breaker, when ....... bla bla bla ......... and then look at RLML again and ask yourself if they really are/were too strong, or the other medium sized missile systems too weak.
#KNOW ;LEDGE
Got jumped by an 'Enjoy' with wrong ammo loaded? Dial 555-booo hooo tough on you! Killed 2, but a 3rd showed up and need to reload? Dial 555-booo hooo tough on you! Brought a knife to a gun fight. Dial 555-booo hooo tough on you!
RLML are fine just the way they are. Maybe iIncrease the clip by a little bit. Sure. But i love the fact that you have a (missile) weaponsystem that basically says. "Bro, you better take me out with your first punch or before my friends are here....or else your a$$ is gonna go bye bye".
Its a choice you can make, but dont have to. If you don't like it use a different weaponsystem. Guess what, there are others available and guess what else? They are all viable. EVE never had so many viable options. Some people cry and demand their old "One ship/weaponsystem to rule them all" back. Again, its a choice you can make. To cry and throw a fit demanding demanding demanding or adapting your playstyle.
So please stop complaining and demanding that RLML do what you want them to do and pick the weapon system that does.
|

Hatsumi Kobayashi
Origin. Black Legion.
445
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 22:37:00 -
[11] - Quote
I will express my opinion on RLMLs in 40 seconds. No sig. |

Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
366
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 00:01:00 -
[12] - Quote
Hatsumi Kobayashi wrote:I will express my opinion on RLMLs in 40 seconds. I second that motion.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
|

epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
671
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 01:36:00 -
[13] - Quote
The poll is really not needed, the players have already expressed their dislike clearly and oh so loudly.
What is needed is a suggestion for rlml and rhml that CCP rise can see, is even more fun, and even more effective, without breaking the balance with other weapons.
I suggest that one option is that it becomes a dual function weapon, that can either operate as a standard light missile launcher with a normal reload time or as a rapid missile launcher front loading the damage, basically giving the players a choice in how to engage. Oh and reduce the fitting requirements, there's so little value in the function it really shouldn't nerf other ship capabilities. But read below first before deciding.
The real problem that we are skirting around, is that missiles are in desperate need of some love at the moment, and the old RLML was a great solution to this for cruisers. I don't think anything he comes up with that doesn't match the power of the old ones is going to please anyone.
So Suggestion for CCP rise is to look beyond all the rage and frustration in these threads and on this one system, stop and look, at what would make this a good anti frigate weapon, forget the "fun" and gimmicks and make it just Good.
You might find that you have reached a solution, and then apply it to the other missiles. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |

Jester Cap
A better day
16
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 06:02:00 -
[14] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:The poll is really not needed, the players have already expressed their dislike clearly and oh so loudly.
What is needed is a suggestion for rlml and rhml that CCP rise can see, is even more fun, and even more effective, without breaking the balance with other weapons.
I suggest that one option is that it becomes a dual function weapon, that can either operate as a standard light missile launcher with a normal reload time or as a rapid missile launcher front loading the damage, basically giving the players a choice in how to engage. Oh and reduce the fitting requirements, there's so little value in the function it really shouldn't nerf other ship capabilities. But read below first before deciding.
The real problem that we are skirting around, is that missiles are in desperate need of some love at the moment, and the old RLML was a great solution to this for cruisers. I don't think anything he comes up with that doesn't match the power of the old ones is going to please anyone.
So Suggestion for CCP rise is to look beyond all the rage and frustration in these threads and on this one system, stop and look, at what would make this a good anti frigate weapon, forget the "fun" and gimmicks and make it just Good.
You might find that you have reached a solution, and then apply it to the other missiles.
No. ........ a dual function weapon .......
Let me explain to you the concept of a trade-off or a draw back. It basically assume a situation in which a gain on one side comes with a loss on the other. In case of RLML you trade burst dps for sustained dps.
In the past missiles have had much too few drawbacks and a way too wide engagement envelope. Some of it due to the hulls using missiles some due to the missile(launcher)s themselves.
As the old saying goes: "you can have it all, just not at the same time"
Other weapon systems trade dps for range and tracking or alpha dps for sustained dps.
As I said before. instead of demanding the RLML do what you want it to do, pick the weaponsystem that does what you want it to do and live with the drawbacks. If you feel that RLML need some fine-tuning like a slightly larger slip-size, that is one thing. But asking it to do everything at once such as sustained and burst dps at virtually all ranges with selectable damage type and immunity to ewar is just not very -lets say- beneficial to a rock, paper, scissor environment when rock beats both paper and scissor. You are making missiles not only op but all other launchers obsolete.
|

Brutor Trash
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 06:41:00 -
[15] - Quote
SCREW YOU NEED MOAR POWER ANYONE CAN SEE RLML IS TRASH PLZ FIX |

Odithia
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
32
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 06:57:00 -
[16] - Quote
Being able to destroy 2 inty at any range/transversal is already borderline, it surely doesn't need another boost. |

Brutor Trash
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 07:40:00 -
[17] - Quote
BECAUSE 200-300 MILL CERB STRUGGLING TO KILL 2 INTIES WITH FRIG-KILLING WEAPON SYSTEM IS BORDERLINE. LOL WTF. |

Nalelmir Ahashion
Omen Industries -Entropy-
156
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 08:39:00 -
[18] - Quote
RLML Caracal was my favourite T1 cruiser... then I took an arrow to th.... *cough* then they made reload times longer.
what's the point in launcher which shoots faster and takes longer to reload? "What's worse than a foul-mouthed eight-year-old constantly claiming he's had relations with your mother? A foul-mouthed eight-year-old constantly claiming he's had relations with your mother who thinks he's a gangser, that's what." --áAaron Birch |

Brutor Trash
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 08:46:00 -
[19] - Quote
THE POINT?
RETARDS: CCP PLZ HELP CARACAL SHOOTING MY FRIG. I CANT BLOB ANYMORE. CCP: OHSHIT POOR BABIES HERE IS NERF.
THAT'S THE POINT.
BETTER SOLUTION FOR FRIG PILOTS: DONT ENGAGE THE FRIG KILLING MACHINE YOU DUMB ASS.
PEOPLE SAY BALANCE IS NERFING THE RLML AND MAKING ARGUMENTS ABOUT USING THE RIGHT TOOL FOR THE JOB BLAH BLAH BLAH
BS.
ITS ABOUT FRIGS, YES THE ENTIRETY OF THAT ENORMOUS BULLSHIT SHIP CLASS, TO HAVE A HARD COUNTER. FRIG PILOTS AND NOOBS DON"T LIKE THE IDEA OF IT. SO THEY COMPLAIN. THAT'S BS. THERE IS A COUNTER, RLML IS IT.
#RLML BRING IT BACK |

epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
672
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 09:52:00 -
[20] - Quote
Jester Cap wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:The poll is really not needed, the players have already expressed their dislike clearly and oh so loudly.
What is needed is a suggestion for rlml and rhml that CCP rise can see, is even more fun, and even more effective, without breaking the balance with other weapons.
I suggest that one option is that it becomes a dual function weapon, that can either operate as a standard light missile launcher with a normal reload time or as a rapid missile launcher front loading the damage, basically giving the players a choice in how to engage. Oh and reduce the fitting requirements, there's so little value in the function it really shouldn't nerf other ship capabilities. But read below first before deciding.
The real problem that we are skirting around, is that missiles are in desperate need of some love at the moment, and the old RLML was a great solution to this for cruisers. I don't think anything he comes up with that doesn't match the power of the old ones is going to please anyone.
So Suggestion for CCP rise is to look beyond all the rage and frustration in these threads and on this one system, stop and look, at what would make this a good anti frigate weapon, forget the "fun" and gimmicks and make it just Good.
You might find that you have reached a solution, and then apply it to the other missiles. No. ........ a dual function weapon ....... Let me explain to you the concept of a trade-off or a draw back. It basically assume a situation in which a gain on one side comes with a loss on the other. In case of RLML you trade burst dps for sustained dps. In the past missiles have had much too few drawbacks and a way too wide engagement envelope. Some of it due to the hulls using missiles some due to the missile(launcher)s themselves. As the old saying goes: "you can have it all, just not at the same time" Other weapon systems trade dps for range and tracking or alpha dps for sustained dps. As I said before. instead of demanding the RLML do what you want it to do, pick the weaponsystem that does what you want to do and live with the drawbacks. If you feel that RLML need some fine-tuning like a slightly larger clip-size, that is one thing. But asking it to do everything at once such as sustained and burst dps at virtually all ranges with selectable damage type and immunity to ewar is just not very -lets say- beneficial to a rock, paper, scissor environment when rock beats both paper and scissor. You are making missiles not only op but all other launchers obsolete. I am quite capable of understanding the concept of a trade off. Unfortunately it seems that you have replied to my post without reading it. Have another go, and get past the first couple of lines. I am not saying that to be sarcastic or snarky, I think you have genuinely got so focused on responding to what you think I said, you missed what i was actually saying.
There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |

Treborr MintingtonJr
Quantum Reality R n D Spaceship Samurai
189
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 10:04:00 -
[21] - Quote
Firtsly thanks to ISD Ezwal for protecting my innocent eyes.
RLML are pretty rubbish especially with the 40 secs reload time and therefore I will never use them. |

Froggy Storm
The Praxis Initiative Gentlemen's Agreement
197
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 10:12:00 -
[22] - Quote
The other translation for the above is (as usual) someone with entitlement issues.
Please OP, just be honest. Tell the class how your "main" could kill whole frig gangs without any risk before the chamge. And how that is proper as you spent x+1 isk more than they did. (Since you have gone back to the isk balance argument). Just what do you feel is the correct isk to immunity ratio? Should a navy drake be able to trump your hac? It has cruiser sized weapons and costs more? That seems to be the sum of your points.
It's an empty argument at best. |

Jonas Staal
Interstellar Booty Hunters
57
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 10:27:00 -
[23] - Quote
Brutor Trash wrote:because 200-300 mill cerb struggling to kill 2 inties with frig-killing weapon system is borderline. lol wtf.
Find me another HAC that can kill 2 inties. |

Silvetica Dian
Manson Family Advent of Fate
776
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 11:48:00 -
[24] - Quote
Brutor Trash wrote:*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal. need moar power anyone can see rlml is trash plz fix
RLML are actually very very good in their niche environment. They do a huge amount of front loaded damage that applies well to small targets. If anything i am seeing more RLML setups now that frigs are cool again than i ever did before (nullsec). I pretty much assume that caracals are RLML now and i am seeing oh so many caracals. Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85 |

baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
10272
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 15:45:00 -
[25] - Quote
Brutor Trash wrote:because 200-300 mill cerb struggling to kill 2 inties with frig-killing weapon system is borderline. lol wtf.
My raven does better than you. You are doing something very wrong. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |

Brutor Trash
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 21:28:00 -
[26] - Quote
Froggy Storm wrote:The other translation for the above is (as usual) someone with entitlement issues.
Please OP, just be honest. Tell the class how your "main" could kill whole frig gangs without any risk before the chamge. And how that is proper as you spent x+1 isk more than they did. (Since you have gone back to the isk balance argument). Just what do you feel is the correct isk to immunity ratio? Should a navy drake be able to trump your hac? It has cruiser sized weapons and costs more? That seems to be the sum of your points.
It's an empty argument at best.
NO ITS CALLED FRIG KILLING WEAPON SYSTEM ACTUALLY KILLS FRIGS.
RLML ARE NOT GOOD IN THEIR NICHE ENVIRONMENT. |

Brutor Trash
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 21:34:00 -
[27] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Brutor Trash wrote:because 200-300 mill cerb struggling to kill 2 inties with frig-killing weapon system is borderline. lol wtf. My raven does better than you. You are doing something very wrong.
https://zkillboard.com/detail/37182116/
THIS ONE? |

Brutor Trash
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 21:42:00 -
[28] - Quote
Silvetica Dian wrote:Brutor Trash wrote:*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal. need moar power anyone can see rlml is trash plz fix RLML are actually very very good in their niche environment. They do a huge amount of front loaded damage that applies well to small targets. If anything i am seeing more RLML setups now that frigs are cool again than i ever did before (nullsec). I pretty much assume that caracals are RLML now and i am seeing oh so many caracals.
IT IS TRUE THEY DO A HUGE AMOUNT OF FRONTAL DAMAGE THAT APPLY WELL HOWEVER THE PROBLEM IS YOU CANNOT TAKE OUT ANYTHING WITH SUBSTANTIAL TANK BEFORE RELOAD. ONCE RELOAD BEGINS YOU ARE SCREWED. FRIGS NO LONGER HAVE A HARD COUNTER ASIDES FROM DISCO BATTLESHIP ANYMORE. WHO WANTS TO SUICIDE BATTLESHIPS TO KILL A BUNCH OF META 0 FIT FRIG BLOBS? OKAY JUST SOMETIMES. )))
THIS IS A VICTORY FOR F1 IDIOTS AND PEOPLE BUTT HURT A CRUISER CAN KILL THEIR FRIG. FOR PEOPLE BUTTHURT THEIR BLOB OF 1 MILLION ISK META 0 FRIG CAN'T SUICIDE DERP INTO A CRUISER WORTH 40 TIMES THAT AMOUNT AND STILL COME OUT ISK POSITIVE.
35s RELOAD IS CRAP. |

Brutor Trash
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 22:25:00 -
[29] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Brutor Trash wrote:because 200-300 mill cerb struggling to kill 2 inties with frig-killing weapon system is borderline. lol wtf. My raven does better than you. You are doing something very wrong.
https://zkillboard.com/detail/37182116/ |

Brutor Trash
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.06 23:03:00 -
[30] - Quote
SURELY THIS THREAD HAS MORE TO OFFER THAN A BUNCH OF SCARED FRIG BLOBBERS LIKE FROGGY STORM WHO ARE AFRAID THEY MIGHT ACTUALLY HAVE A HARD COUNTER. FRIG BLOBBERS SO SCARED THERE MIGHT BE A TOOL TO HARD COUNTER THEM. FRIG BLOBS HAVE A COUNTER. AS THEY SHOULD. RLML IS IT. #BRING IT BACK. WITHOUT THEM ALL MOST PEOPLE WILL DO IS BLOB PEOPLE WITH FRIGATES WITH NO FEAR.
FRIG PILOTS DON'T LIKE THE FACT THERE IS A COUNTER TO THEIR SHIP CLASS. THAT DOESNT MATTER. BALANCE CALLS FOR IT. EVE NEEDS A HERO. RLML WILL SAVE IT. #2014
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