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Ammzi
Imperial Guardians
Blazing Angels Alliance
112
   |
Posted - 2011.11.14 14:24:00 -
[61] - Quote
Oh look.
Those are my blues and I had them blacklisted.
*evil grin* 
quote CCP Spitfire
"Hello Im Blue,"
|
Elyssa MacLeod
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
21
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 15:08:00 -
[62] - Quote
Deviana Sevidon wrote:The tactic is suicidal and I doubt that any attempts would be really effective. Logistics have high sensor strengths so it is a gamble if a suicide ganker is able to break their lock and prevent them from repping a target. Also incursion ships are fitted for resistance/buffer, so they can last a few seconds, even when the sanshas focus their fire, because that is what a good incursion ship is supposed to do.
Suicide jamming is more of a comedy relief then a threat for any incursion fleet. Clowns that get themselves blown up are always hilarious.
Given that you have to omni tank for Incursons, yes? That makes you more susceptible to single damage types, yes?
Also, if suicide gankers are gonna go for Incursion fleets, target the logis first, yes? lol
GM Homonoia: Suicide ganks are a valid and viable tactic in EVE.
Where is your God now carebear? |
Ammzi
Imperial Guardians
Blazing Angels Alliance
112
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 15:33:00 -
[63] - Quote
Having run incursions for 10 months I can say this ....
What "kill it with fire" attempted worked. There is no if, but or however.
No, it worked and I saw it myself (no I wasn't in the fleet).
quote CCP Spitfire
"Hello Im Blue,"
|
Lady Go Diveher
The Independent Troll Society
118
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 15:42:00 -
[64] - Quote
Dawww catch up guys.
I was going this back in January :P
n.b. I may well hold a "blacklist record" - at 15 characters banned from BTL :P |
Andy Kusoni
Lead Farmers
Kill It With Fire
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 15:44:00 -
[65] - Quote
For those of you who would like to do this yourself, here's how. If you want to do it on an alt, its less than a week with a new character into caldari cruiser 4, electronic warfare 3. A bit more if you want engineering 5 and thermodynamics to overload your jammers.
Fit your blackbirds with either 6 meta-3 caldari or minmatar jammers depending on if you are against scimis or basis. Lowslots should have two meta-3 signal distortion amplifiers.
You need at least 3 groups 2 of blackbirds, preferably 4 groups of 3. Against basilisks, you usually only need 2 blackbirds per group (sometimes they cap chain with BS in the fleet, watch for that). Against scimitars, you need 3 per group.
First group warps in, overloads and readies all jammers, and each blackbird jams one logi. The FC starts counting with a stopwatch.
Second group warps in a few seconds later, locks logis. Again, each blackbird jams one logi at 20 seconds after the first round of jams.
Repeat this for however many blackbirds you have.
I'm not reposting my math here, you can do it yourself, but with the skills I listed above, and non-ECCM'ed logis, you have a 90%+ chance of jamming out all the logis for as long as you want (eg: however many players you have). I didn't bother calculating against ECCM'd logis, because most incursion logi don't mount ECCM.
Yes, you get concorded. The beauty is even if concord is already on grid with you you still have a good chance of jamming your logi for 20 seconds, because jams last after your ship is destroyed.
On our last attempt yesterday we managed to get one machariel into 15% armor. If we had a fourth wave of blackbirds he probably would have died. We were limited by the pilots we had online at the time.
A larger corp than us will have great fun with this, and I encourage everyone to try it. Blackbirds are dirt cheap. |
Ammzi
Imperial Guardians
Blazing Angels Alliance
112
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 15:47:00 -
[66] - Quote
Lady Go Diveher wrote:Dawww catch up guys.
I was going this back in January :P
n.b. I may well hold a "blacklist record" - at 15 characters banned from BTL :P
Psst, I can get them unbanned.
100 m per alt, but don't tell anyone. 
quote CCP Spitfire
"Hello Im Blue,"
|
proxwar
Klaatu Technologies
12
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 15:55:00 -
[67] - Quote
The simplest counter to this new threat is for all logi's to start using EECM's is it not? |
Lady Go Diveher
The Independent Troll Society
118
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 15:56:00 -
[68] - Quote
proxwar wrote:The simplest counter to this new threat is for all logi's to start using EECM's is it not?
BUT THAT FIT ISN'T ON THE OFFICIAL INCURSION FITTINGS WEBSITES SO THE FCs WILL THINK SOMETHING DODGY IS HAPPENING OMG
Edit: also, no |
Jovan Geldon
Lead Farmers
Kill It With Fire
161
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 16:04:00 -
[69] - Quote
This thread made me do a little sex wee-wee in my pants |
Ammzi
Imperial Guardians
Blazing Angels Alliance
112
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 16:06:00 -
[70] - Quote
Lady Go Diveher wrote:proxwar wrote:The simplest counter to this new threat is for all logi's to start using EECM's is it not? BUT THAT FIT ISN'T ON THE OFFICIAL INCURSION FITTINGS WEBSITES SO THE FCs WILL THINK SOMETHING DODGY IS HAPPENING OMG Edit: also, no
Actually several fleets are flying with ECCM now.
Some are thinking of upping it to 2 x ECCM.
quote CCP Spitfire
"Hello Im Blue,"
|
proxwar
Klaatu Technologies
12
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 16:06:00 -
[71] - Quote
Lady Go Diveher wrote:proxwar wrote:The simplest counter to this new threat is for all logi's to start using EECM's is it not? BUT THAT FIT ISN'T ON THE OFFICIAL INCURSION FITTINGS WEBSITES SO THE FCs WILL THINK SOMETHING DODGY IS HAPPENING OMG Edit: also, no
Fair comment.
So, when can we expect a hot fix to disable all ECM's within an Incursion system CCP?
Its the only logical next step  |
Ammzi
Imperial Guardians
Blazing Angels Alliance
112
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 16:07:00 -
[72] - Quote
Best counter to this is fit all battleships with large shield transporters in case of gank jamming.
Most nightmares and machariels have utility slots for this.
quote CCP Spitfire
"Hello Im Blue,"
|
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
288
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 16:18:00 -
[73] - Quote
proxwar wrote:Lady Go Diveher wrote:proxwar wrote:The simplest counter to this new threat is for all logi's to start using EECM's is it not? BUT THAT FIT ISN'T ON THE OFFICIAL INCURSION FITTINGS WEBSITES SO THE FCs WILL THINK SOMETHING DODGY IS HAPPENING OMG Edit: also, no Fair comment. So, when can we expect a hot fix to disable all ECM's within an Incursion system CCP? Its the only logical next step
Apparently you missed this part.
Quote:Suicide ganks (face it, that is what this is) are a valid and viable tactic in EVE. This tactic means that your attacker gets blown up, just like in any normal suicide gank. And just like any other suicide gank there are ways to protect yourself from it; in this case it means having redundant systems and not count on the bare minimum. Or bring ECCM.
To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
proxwar
Klaatu Technologies
12
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 16:31:00 -
[74] - Quote
no, i did catch that part of the post too.
I dont run incursions so it doesnt effect me personally. The post you quoted was tongue in cheek btw, i think you missed that part |
Mrs Sooperdudespaceman
Loud On The Forums Silent In Game
7
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 16:59:00 -
[75] - Quote
ECM burst Griffin works too. |
Sedilis
Lead Farmers
Kill It With Fire
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 17:00:00 -
[76] - Quote
Lead Farmers - Extracting bear tears since 2009.
Now helping nerf highsec Incursions ;) |
E man Industries
SeaChell Productions
119
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 17:10:00 -
[77] - Quote
Meh i'm okay with this.
Can get around this in a number of ways but incursion fleets are not intrested in doing so.
Use remote rep drones.
If your in a shinney ship and scared grab a remote eccm and boost the logi.
As a Scimi I carry 2 tracking links....could easily swap one out for EECM(no eft but believe it should fit.)
risk vs reward.
You want to fly your shiny fleet with max dps and no eccm for max profit....thats a risk.
Is the more isk per hour worth it....that is up to you.
Also if someone is doing this chances are your not the first fleet he will do it to....you'll have some warning by the tears in the incursion channel....read these and adjust your fleet acordingly.
After reading this...
I will have remote rep drones deployed and active repping rather than ecm or dps
I will have an ECCM mod available should the FC request it.
I will watch chat channels to see if these are taking place.
If they are taking place I will fit ECCM to keep my fleet mates alive...
there was that hard?
I have actually Un-subbed my acounts,
We need more to do, not more to wear.
E-mail me when CCP has decent content a casual player can access in a 1-2h play period that is actually fun and contributes to long term goals. |
SilentSkills
Estrale Frontiers
Project Wildfire
33
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 17:15:00 -
[78] - Quote
I don't understand why suicide blackbird is a problem atm. Incursion runners usually have several med-range dps ships that can dish out serious damage. If **** hits the fan just kill the blackbird, it would take3-5 volleys from the wholefleet? probably less.
The way I see it:
-blackbird jumps in - everyone gets ready to alpha kill it if it GCCs
-blackbird jumps in and mwd away - everyone fits long range ammo and chases the BB
-blackbird brings 2 more blackbirds - align out of the incursion, kill scramblers, and get ready to alpha the BBs.
Why is this so hard? |
E man Industries
SeaChell Productions
120
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 17:20:00 -
[79] - Quote
Just did a fast search
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Tracking_Link_II
Tracking link II
powergrid usage
1 MW
CPU usage
30 tf
VS
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Conjunctive_Ladar_ECCM_Scanning_Array_I
ECCM
powergrid usage
1 MW
CPU usage
16 tf
So it is actually easier to fit...it also uses less cap.
So as a scimi pilot upon request I will be able to swap out one or both of my links for these should FC's request it.
We need more to do, not more to wear.
Let me know when-áCCP has decent content a casual player can access in a 1-2h play period that is actually fun and contributes to long term personal and corp goals. |
Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris
Etherium Cartel
230
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 17:30:00 -
[80] - Quote
Ok I want to make sure I get what is happening here:
Incursion Fleets have several ships with buffer tanks being constantly RR by logi ships.
Does the Sansha AI shoot the logi ships? If yes are they constantly RR each other?
Then a player shows up and jams the Logi ships (or tries to as it is chance based) and then the hole spider web collapses?
On a separate note:
My issue with Suicide Ganks in general is the only way to really deal with them is to leave the area, as you can't premptively shoot them. It's like having a guy on your front lawn with a gun pointed at your kids and you can't do anything cause the cops will come shoot you if you try to stop him shooting your kids. While I know many people would ***** about it, if the Sansha are running mad, it should be a 0.4 system ... but then no one would do them right?
Repair Drones should be able to repair anyone ... really, they should. -áThink of them as the first targetable subsystem if you're worried about PvP and for missions if someone wants Rep drones over a flight of Hobs, who cares. -áThere is no reasonable objection here other than it's always been that way (so was RR until recently). |
Qvar Dar'Zanar
EVE University
Ivy League
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 17:35:00 -
[81] - Quote
I support this product or service. |
Johnny Punisher
Wolfsbrigade
7
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 17:43:00 -
[82] - Quote
I agree with ccp/carebears that you should always get a reminder if you are about to aid/aggro/gcc/canflip in highsec/lowsec unless you already have a previous timer running.
Btw the blackbird/griffin suicide gank trick is genious! Good work. I hate the plex prices also  |
Zackgar
Lead Farmers
Kill It With Fire
6
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 17:48:00 -
[83] - Quote
Were just doing our bit to keep incursions in line with the risk/reward of other activities |
Lyubov Petrovskaya
Hephaestus LLC
Gryphon League
8
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 17:53:00 -
[84] - Quote
Just wanted to chime and say, I have no issue with the actual suicide ganking as I'm not an idiot that buys faction BS's and officer fits them just to e-peen - so long may it continue. However, there is something broken here which is the recycling of alts/accounts which is clearly against CCP policy.
Long may our honest non-exploiting outlaws continue their tear inducing ways, for they make EvE what it is - but the recycling of accounts/characters kind of puts the ones doing that into the realm of "no consequences" which looks a bit hypocritical given that this is what they seem to be complaining about re: the incursion bears.
I've included a wall of quoted text below if you want to delve into my reasoning, correct me, etc. - I know some of the quotes are old, but I just resubbed a few weeks ago after about a year off - sorry if i missed a policy change.
Emphasis is mine in all cases.
From Andy Kusoni:
Quote:For those of you who would like to do this yourself, here's how. If you want to do it on an alt, its less than a week with a new character into caldari cruiser 4, electronic warfare 3. A bit more if you want engineering 5 and thermodynamics to overload your jammers.
From GM Homonoia:
Quote:The loophole that was plugged recently fixed a tactic that gave no warning AND had NO consequence. EVE doesn't do 'no consequences' (or close to it anyway). This tactic has plenty consequences, namely CONCORDdokken + standings/security hits.
From GM Nova:
Quote:Posted - 2011.07.08 16:37:00 - [37] In order to prevent players from taking actions that might get them into trouble I'd like to address this issue. What is being discussed here is an exploit clear and simple. Lead GM Grimmi has already addressed this matter Here Quote: Originally by: GM GrimmiHi everybody,
Our stance towards recycling "disposable alts" for purposes such as suicide ganking or summoning CONCORD for bodyguard duty is that it is an exploit, clear and simple. Using "disposable ships" is not seen as an exploit since all ships ARE disposable, when properly insured.
Exploits are the abuse of game mechanics in ways that were not intended or foreseen in order to gain unfair advantages over others. CCP has to date made arrangements to fix such issues as fast as possible. This, however, takes time and resources to sort out and the proper and perfectly logical solution is to prohibit whatever abuse of game mechanics in question until said issue is fixed.
While some unintended uses of game mechanics may not be classed as exploits they may still be subject to re-design or tuning and we assure you that CCP is working hard on fixing problems with game mechanics as deemed appropriate.
That is really the only straight answer we are able to give you guys on the contents of this thread at this time. There are so many possible scenarios and cases must be evaluated and handled on an individual basis and we simply have to deal with problems as they crop up. The petition system is the way to go about reporting possible issues that may require GM/dev attention so please be sure to file a petition if you think there is a problem. We will then investigate the issue and take the appropriate action. The matter cannot be more clear and let me assure you this is very much enforceable. Please be sure to adhere to our rules and policies. Yours, GM Nova
From CCP Fallout:
Quote:Posted - 2011.05.23 16:45:00 - [1]
The following comes from our Customer Support Department:
Abusing the Buddy System is considered an exploit and will not be tolerated. Incidents will be handled on a case by case basis and action taken may include bans for all accounts involved and/or confiscation of ISK and items.
Abuse includes, but is not limited to: farming gifts, making throw-away alts for grief-play purposes. |
Poloturion
Lead Farmers
Kill It With Fire
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 17:58:00 -
[85] - Quote
Who said anything about throwing the characters away? Are you against the use of free character slots for amusing purposes? |
Andy Kusoni
Lead Farmers
Kill It With Fire
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 18:01:00 -
[86] - Quote
I do not support using throwaway alts. I was suggesting a way for players who run incursions with their main characters to have some fun without being blacklisted from the main incursion channels. |
Jovan Geldon
Lead Farmers
Kill It With Fire
162
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 18:06:00 -
[87] - Quote
Greifing on my main all day erry day |
E man Industries
SeaChell Productions
120
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 18:12:00 -
[88] - Quote
Apollo Gabriel wrote:
The ECM jam lasts through the destruction of the ship is the issue.
This seems to be the bigger problem.
We need more to do, not more to wear.
Let me know when-áCCP has decent content a casual player can access in a 1-2h play period that is actually fun and contributes to long term personal and corp goals. |
Ammzi
Imperial Guardians
Blazing Angels Alliance
113
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 18:23:00 -
[89] - Quote
Apollo Gabriel wrote:Ok I want to make sure I get what is happening here:
Incursion Fleets have several ships with buffer tanks being constantly RR by logi ships.
Does the Sansha AI shoot the logi ships? If yes are they constantly RR each other?
Then a player shows up and jams the Logi ships (or tries to as it is chance based) and then the hole spider web collapses?
On a separate note:
My issue with Suicide Ganks in general is the only way to really deal with them is to leave the area, as you can't premptively shoot them. It's like having a guy on your front lawn with a gun pointed at your kids and you can't do anything cause the cops will come shoot you if you try to stop him shooting your kids. While I know many people would ***** about it, if the Sansha are running mad, it should be a 0.4 system ... but then no one would do them right?
Sansha have sleeper AI. They switch aggro constantly. No one is safe (except pods).
There's lots of stuff you can do as preemptive measurements to counter ECM suicide ganks.
quote CCP Spitfire
"Hello Im Blue,"
|
Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
162
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 18:33:00 -
[90] - Quote
[quote=Lyubov Petrovskaya]Just wanted to chime and say, I have no issue with the actual suicide ganking as I'm not an idiot that buys faction BS's and officer fits them just to e-peen - so long may it continue. However, there is something broken here which is the recycling of alts/accounts which is clearly against CCP policy.
Long may our honest non-exploiting outlaws continue their tear inducing ways, for they make EvE what it is - but the recycling of accounts/characters kind of puts the ones doing that into the realm of "no consequences" which looks a bit hypocritical given that this is what they seem to be complaining about re: the incursion bears.
I've included a wall of quoted text below if you want to delve into my reasoning, correct me, etc. - I know some of the quotes are old, but I just resubbed a few weeks ago after about a year off - sorry if i missed a policy change.
Emphasis is mine in all cases.
From Andy Kusoni:
Quote:For those of you who would like to do this yourself, here's how. If you want to do it on an alt, its less than a week with a new character into caldari cruiser 4, electronic warfare 3. A bit more if you want engineering 5 and thermodynamics to overload your jammers.
From GM Homonoia:
Quote:The loophole that was plugged recently fixed a tactic that gave no warning AND had NO consequence. EVE doesn't do 'no consequences' (or close to it anyway). This tactic has plenty consequences, namely CONCORDdokken + standings/security hits.
From GM Nova:
Quote:Posted - 2011.07.08 16:37:00 - [37] In order to prevent players from taking actions that might get them into trouble I'd like to address this issue. What is being discussed here is an exploit clear and simple. Lead GM Grimmi has already addressed this matter Here Quote: Originally by: GM GrimmiHi everybody,
Our stance towards recycling "disposable alts" for purposes such as suicide ganking or summoning CONCORD for bodyguard duty is that it is an exploit, clear and simple. Using "disposable ships" is not seen as an exploit since all ships ARE disposable, when properly insured.
Exploits are the abuse of game mechanics in ways that were not intended or foreseen in order to gain unfair advantages over others. CCP has to date made arrangements to fix such issues as fast as possible. This, however, takes time and resources to sort out and the proper and perfectly logical solution is to prohibit whatever abuse of game mechanics in question until said issue is fixed.
While some unintended uses of game mechanics may not be classed as exploits they may still be subject to re-design or tuning and we assure you that CCP is working hard on fixing problems with game mechanics as deemed appropriate.
That is really the only straight answer we are able to give you guys on the contents of this thread at this time. There are so many possible scenarios and cases must be evaluated and handled on an individual basis and we simply have to deal with problems as they crop up. The petition system is the way to go about reporting possible issues that may require GM/dev attention so please be sure to file a petition if you think there is a problem. We will then investigate the issue and take the appropriate action. The matter cannot be more clear and let me assure you this is very much enforceable. Please be sure to adhere to our rules and policies. Yours, GM Nova
From CCP Fallout:
"Posted - 2011.05.23 16:45:00 - [1]
The following comes from our Customer Support Department:
Abusing the Buddy System is considered an exploit and will not be tolerated. Incidents will be handled on a case by case basis and action taken may include bans for all accounts involved and/or confiscation of ISK and items.
Abuse includes, but is not limited to: farming gifts, making throw-away alts for grief-play purposes."
Theres also no way to report them lol which is what makes this all just damn funny
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=255722#post255722
My stance on WiS |
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