Corp/alliance bans 11/14/2011
From: carmelos53
Sent: 2011.11.13 18:14
To: Public incursion blacklist,

Kill It With Fire - now added due to blackbird suicide jamming



Snap to it CCP. Like GM Hormone said, there is no warning for Incursion runners of this threat, so there is no way to protect against, therefore it's an exploit against Incursion runners.

THE ISK FOUNTAIN MUST NOT BE STOPPED.

can you link to where GM Hormone said no warning for incursions runners?

Does matter where or if?

The scenario is pretty selfexplaining. All they have time for is to notice a neutral on grid and pray they are out of range, before logistics locks are broken and blocked for 20s. 20s without remote reps, and usually no local tank, is a long time with a incursion hammering the fleet.

Does matter where or if?

The scenario is pretty selfexplaining. All they have time for is to notice a neutral on grid and pray they are out of range, before logistics locks are broken and blocked for 20s. 20s without remote reps, and usually no local tank, is a long time with a incursion hammering the fleet.

I wonder how PvP fleets can manage with their logistics getting permajammed by a lone blackbird.

I wonder how PvP fleets can manage with their logistics getting permajammed by a lone blackbird.

Corp/alliance bans 11/14/2011
From: carmelos53
Sent: 2011.11.13 18:14
To: Public incursion blacklist,

Kill It With Fire - now added due to blackbird suicide jamming



Snap to it CCP. Like GM Hormone said, there is no warning for Incursion runners of this threat, so there is no way to protect against, therefore it's an exploit against Incursion runners.

THE ISK FOUNTAIN MUST NOT BE STOPPED.

Does matter where or if?

The scenario is pretty selfexplaining. All they have time for is to notice a neutral on grid and pray they are out of range, before logistics locks are broken and blocked for 20s. 20s without remote reps, and usually no local tank, is a long time with a incursion hammering the fleet.

I demand that all "wana-be" hi-sec pvper bears be forced to actually pvp, as in shoot those who are only too happy and able to shoot back, rather then the current "shoot everyone as long as they can't shoot back" that passes for pvp in hi-sec.

Well done CCP for making Eve Online harder; only real pvper's will be left once all these bears have been forced out because the game is too hard for them.

Bravo o7

Corp/alliance bans 11/14/2011
From: carmelos53
Sent: 2011.11.13 18:14
To: Public incursion blacklist,

Kill It With Fire - now added due to blackbird suicide jamming



Snap to it CCP. Like GM Hormone said, there is no warning for Incursion runners of this threat, so there is no way to protect against, therefore it's an exploit against Incursion runners.

THE ISK FOUNTAIN MUST NOT BE STOPPED.

Or did you just skim the thread and decide to sperg anyway?

I demand 1 ISK per SP per hour I remain docked safely in the station in highsec. I should not be required to risk anything in highsec when I make ISK for my PLEXes. Especially not my precious PvE officer fit faction ships.

As someone who on occasion runs incursions...they're not faucets. They're fire hoses, a good fleet can make about a bil per person in 8 to 10 hours. I was talking to one guy a few months back. He was 3months into the game and had over 17bil saved from just doing incursions. No real risk means crap tons of profit.

LMAOO!!! wow carebears are pathetic, your now complaing that suicide ganking is broken and because you cant protect you selfs against it its an exploit.........wow.... its a frgin game mechanic some one shoots you unprovoked then concord kills them, doing it in an incursion is just an excellent way of suicide ganking. seriously carebears just because some one kills you its not an exploit.

Dear Incursion Bears:

The Eve community at large does not like you. Your influence on our game is not good for anyone but yourself, and your interactions with Eve add no texture to the sandbox in which we all live. The only option your senseless and incessant PvE activities offer anyone else who wants to maintain economic space-independence is running Incursions. For this reason, the greater Eve community will continuously target you and everything you hold dear.

Get over it.

~Andrei.

I am confused how this all works, doesn't Concord get involved? I don't do incursions, just curious.

then we get all the shiny faction mods that droped, and how were they able to afford such expensive ships in the first place??? because of op incursions that we are attempting to fix

8-10 hours can make a bill as well in null and there is less risk due to intel.

20 minutes a sanctum 35m each is 105m a hour time ten hours 1050m plus you got faction rats as well
ohh thats not even in fleet i also almost forgot escalations

90 days aprox to 3 months thats 94.5b, 5.55 times as much just saying

LESS IMMUNITY imo.
And the next Hulkageddon should target them and lvl 4 runners too. Get them scared for their faction fit ships :D

Suicide ganks (face it, that is what this is) are a valid and viable tactic in EVE. This tactic means that your attacker gets blown up, just like in any normal suicide gank. And just like any other suicide gank there are ways to protect yourself from it; in this case it means having redundant systems and not count on the bare minimum. Or bring ECCM.

The loophole that was plugged recently fixed a tactic that gave no warning AND had NO consequence. EVE doesn't do 'no consequences' (or close to it anyway). This tactic has plenty consequences, namely CONCORDdokken + standings/security hits.

Also, it is GM Homonoia - the goddess of concord and oneness of mind.
Not GM Hormone - the family of chemicals that are designed to do weird stuff to your body and mental state.

Do I see tears?

Let me lick those sweet tears, mmmm.

Taste so salty, those tears.

Mmmm...

MOAR TEARS!

I demand MOAR TEARS!

--

On another note, nothing is safe in EVE - if you don't like it go play wow or something.

EVE is unpredictable, if you don't have friends to run incursions with - you're doing something wrong.

Suicide ganks (face it, that is what this is) are a valid and viable tactic in EVE. This tactic means that your attacker gets blown up, just like in any normal suicide gank. And just like any other suicide gank there are ways to protect yourself from it; in this case it means having redundant systems and not count on the bare minimum. Or bring ECCM.

The loophole that was plugged recently fixed a tactic that gave no warning AND had NO consequence. EVE doesn't do 'no consequences' (or close to it anyway). This tactic has plenty consequences, namely CONCORDdokken + standings/security hits.

Also, it is GM Homonoia - the goddess of concord and oneness of mind.
Not GM Hormone - the family of chemicals that are designed to do weird stuff to your body and mental state.

Suicide ganks (face it, that is what this is) are a valid and viable tactic in EVE. This tactic means that your attacker gets blown up, just like in any normal suicide gank. And just like any other suicide gank there are ways to protect yourself from it; in this case it means having redundant systems and not count on the bare minimum. Or bring ECCM.

The loophole that was plugged recently fixed a tactic that gave no warning AND had NO consequence. EVE doesn't do 'no consequences' (or close to it anyway). This tactic has plenty consequences, namely CONCORDdokken + standings/security hits.

Also, it is GM Homonoia - the goddess of concord and oneness of mind.
Not GM Hormone - the family of chemicals that are designed to do weird stuff to your body and mental state.

Suicide ganks (face it, that is what this is) are a valid and viable tactic in EVE. This tactic means that your attacker gets blown up, just like in any normal suicide gank. And just like any other suicide gank there are ways to protect yourself from it; in this case it means having redundant systems and not count on the bare minimum. Or bring ECCM.

The loophole that was plugged recently fixed a tactic that gave no warning AND had NO consequence. EVE doesn't do 'no consequences' (or close to it anyway). This tactic has plenty consequences, namely CONCORDdokken + standings/security hits.

Also, it is GM Homonoia - the goddess of concord and oneness of mind.
Not GM Hormone - the family of chemicals that are designed to do weird stuff to your body and mental state.

8-10 hours can make a bill as well in null and there is less risk due to intel.

20 minutes a sanctum 35m each is 105m a hour time ten hours 1050m plus you got faction rats as well
ohh thats not even in fleet i also almost forgot escalations

90 days aprox to 3 months thats 94.5b, 5.55 times as much just saying

EVE doesn't do 'no consequences' (or close to it anyway)

The loophole that was plugged recently fixed a tactic that gave no warning AND had NO consequence. EVE doesn't do 'no consequences' (or close to it anyway). This tactic has plenty consequences, namely CONCORDdokken + standings/security hits

Corp/alliance bans 11/14/2011
From: carmelos53
Sent: 2011.11.13 18:14
To: Public incursion blacklist,

Kill It With Fire - now added due to blackbird suicide jamming



Snap to it CCP. Like GM Hormone said, there is no warning for Incursion runners of this threat, so there is no way to protect against, therefore it's an exploit against Incursion runners.

THE ISK FOUNTAIN MUST NOT BE STOPPED.

For this to be anywhere near true, you would need to remove Insurance payouts for Concord related kills.

As it is now, there are virtually no consequences for suicide ganking.

An incursion griefing blackbird doesn't need to fit tank or weapons, or even a mix of ECM types. Just needs a 2:1 ratio of amarr:gallente/caldari:minmatar, or scout out the target fleet in advance (which is trivial to do) and just fit for what they've got, plus the lowslot and rig modules.

Everyone at CCP keeps deciding ECM sucks as a game mechanic, but they never bother to make it not suck. Why is that? WTB ECM that reduces your targeting slots by 1.

The tactic is suicidal and I doubt that any attempts would be really effective. Logistics have high sensor strengths so it is a gamble if a suicide ganker is able to break their lock and prevent them from repping a target. Also incursion ships are fitted for resistance/buffer, so they can last a few seconds, even when the sanshas focus their fire, because that is what a good incursion ship is supposed to do.

Suicide jamming is more of a comedy relief then a threat for any incursion fleet. Clowns that get themselves blown up are always hilarious.

Dawww catch up guys.

I was going this back in January :P

n.b. I may well hold a "blacklist record" - at 15 characters banned from BTL :P

The simplest counter to this new threat is for all logi's to start using EECM's is it not?

BUT THAT FIT ISN'T ON THE OFFICIAL INCURSION FITTINGS WEBSITES SO THE FCs WILL THINK SOMETHING DODGY IS HAPPENING OMG

Edit: also, no

BUT THAT FIT ISN'T ON THE OFFICIAL INCURSION FITTINGS WEBSITES SO THE FCs WILL THINK SOMETHING DODGY IS HAPPENING OMG

Edit: also, no

Fair comment.

So, when can we expect a hot fix to disable all ECM's within an Incursion system CCP?

Its the only logical next step

Suicide ganks (face it, that is what this is) are a valid and viable tactic in EVE. This tactic means that your attacker gets blown up, just like in any normal suicide gank. And just like any other suicide gank there are ways to protect yourself from it; in this case it means having redundant systems and not count on the bare minimum. Or bring ECCM.

For those of you who would like to do this yourself, here's how. If you want to do it on an alt, its less than a week with a new character into caldari cruiser 4, electronic warfare 3. A bit more if you want engineering 5 and thermodynamics to overload your jammers.

The loophole that was plugged recently fixed a tactic that gave no warning AND had NO consequence. EVE doesn't do 'no consequences' (or close to it anyway). This tactic has plenty consequences, namely CONCORDdokken + standings/security hits.

Posted - 2011.07.08 16:37:00 - [37]

In order to prevent players from taking actions that might get them into trouble I'd like to address this issue. What is being discussed here is an exploit clear and simple. Lead GM Grimmi has already addressed this matter Here





The matter cannot be more clear and let me assure you this is very much enforceable. Please be sure to adhere to our rules and policies.

Yours,
GM Nova

Posted - 2011.05.23 16:45:00 - [1]

The following comes from our Customer Support Department:

Abusing the Buddy System is considered an exploit and will not be tolerated. Incidents will be handled on a case by case basis and action taken may include bans for all accounts involved and/or confiscation of ISK and items.

Abuse includes, but is not limited to: farming gifts, making throw-away alts for grief-play purposes.

The ECM jam lasts through the destruction of the ship is the issue.

Ok I want to make sure I get what is happening here:


Incursion Fleets have several ships with buffer tanks being constantly RR by logi ships.

Does the Sansha AI shoot the logi ships? If yes are they constantly RR each other?

Then a player shows up and jams the Logi ships (or tries to as it is chance based) and then the hole spider web collapses?


On a separate note:
My issue with Suicide Ganks in general is the only way to really deal with them is to leave the area, as you can't premptively shoot them. It's like having a guy on your front lawn with a gun pointed at your kids and you can't do anything cause the cops will come shoot you if you try to stop him shooting your kids. While I know many people would ***** about it, if the Sansha are running mad, it should be a 0.4 system ... but then no one would do them right?

For those of you who would like to do this yourself, here's how. If you want to do it on an alt, its less than a week with a new character into caldari cruiser 4, electronic warfare 3. A bit more if you want engineering 5 and thermodynamics to overload your jammers.

The loophole that was plugged recently fixed a tactic that gave no warning AND had NO consequence. EVE doesn't do 'no consequences' (or close to it anyway). This tactic has plenty consequences, namely CONCORDdokken + standings/security hits.

Posted - 2011.07.08 16:37:00 - [37]

In order to prevent players from taking actions that might get them into trouble I'd like to address this issue. What is being discussed here is an exploit clear and simple. Lead GM Grimmi has already addressed this matter Here





The matter cannot be more clear and let me assure you this is very much enforceable. Please be sure to adhere to our rules and policies.

Yours,
GM Nova

This seems to be the bigger problem.

The fact you have reimbursed some of these losses is a terrible indictment of the current state of the game.

That is seriously FUC*ED up if CCP reimbursed losses from this tactic. I guess kicking and screaming and threatening to quit (which they would not) has CCP acting irrationally.

Who said anything about throwing the characters away? Are you against the use of free character slots for amusing purposes?

I do not support using throwaway alts. I was suggesting a way for players who run incursions with their main characters to have some fun without being blacklisted from the main incursion channels.

Greifing on my main all day erry day

Confirming I will not be recycling my 60M sp main because of the sec hit. I guess I'll just kill some rats... and then go back to killing Logi

Theres also no way to report them lol which is what makes this all just damn funny

AFAIK, creating alt to suicide gank, getting to -5 then biomassing them to create a new alt to take to -5 to then biomass them is not ok. Creating an alt to do this on is ok.

Originally by: GM GrimmiHi everybody,
Our stance towards recycling "disposable alts" for purposes such as suicide ganking or summoning CONCORD for bodyguard duty is that it is an exploit, clear and simple.

Can anyone provide details here please.

Are you saying that Suicide Jamming losses have been replaced? That's wrong IF it happened.

I think CCP should stop running incursions in Toys r Us and start to hold them in a particular section of EVE- Doril - Jorund - Hemin - RMOC-W - KQ-WHE - CL-85V - 8G-MQV.

That way, the rest of us can come along and say "hello" to all the brave capsuleers that are keeping us safe from Sansha.

[quote=Apollo Gabriel]The issue, is that despite it NOT being ever declared an exploit AND it being "working as intended" there have been reimbursements for losses to ships in Incursions that were ganked using the can flip aggro trick.

Or rather, I have heard a LOT of people say they have been reimbursed (including an IRL friend) who I have no reason to believe were lying.

Which is ****** up. Reimbursing losses to people who were the victim of an exploit is one thing, but this was NOT declared an exploit. It was declared a "game mechanics change" which semantically suggests the (valid) game mechanics were one way, and are now another.

I request a proof.

*laughs at all the hurt nullbears*

God ... CCP has truly managed to turn EVE all around.
Gotta love 'em!

I don't care what anyone says. If this isn't nullbear tears then I for sure am the queen of England.
*takes out the dusty old tear jar and let's it fill up with delicious golden nullbear tears*

Do you even read? Learn how to take someone agreeing with you without getting all defensive.

Also, on your second point:



You're totally correct that starting a buddy account and suicide ganking on it isn't grief play. However, if you PLEX it for one month of training, suicide to -5 and then throw away the account, then create a new one for the same purpose it is.

@Zackgar: Nice ninja edit. Seems we're in complete agreement, so why don't you quit whining about someone bringing up a legitimate concerns regarding an exploit?

*tactic*

If this is such a "legitimate concern" for you I suggest you head over to the CSM pages and petition for them to remove the buddy account system as well as the biomass button.

Also, please feel free to petition LFARM leadership, we love ganking people and seeing as we started playing at the same time, and have moved to the same corps at the same time, we must be using exploits

Trollin'

Therefore, CCP, make highsec SAFER!
REMOVE CONCORD!

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

I don't think "keep" means what you think it means, given I've only used the word "trolling" once.

Kinda this - Income from highsec incursions needs some serious tweaking. I can earn a days worth of missioning isk in an hour or two in an incursion. I can earn a plex in a leisurely evening running them. Thats one months sub covered in one evening, easily. No wonder the economy is ******.

The lowsec/nullsec ones never get done other than "for the lulz" by the locals. There is no point in risking it, you can earn big in highsec anyway. Bring them down to level 4 isk earning - that way you have the choice, run missions alone or join a group and be social either way, you'l earn the same. The level of earning people enjoy in highsec at the moment should only be available in lowsec/nullsec, the risk/reward balance is WAY off.

IMO every activity in eve should pay out in a good of some sort that people need, not straight ISK. That way the market automatically sets the profitability correctly. If it becomes too profitable, more people flood in to do it, the market gets over supplied with that good, and profitability drops. If profitability gets too low, people go do other things and it automatically comes back up. Bounties and ISK rewards break that mechanic. If CCP just sets the bounty amount too low or too high, the market can't correct it. Or at least, the only way the market can correct it is through inflation, but that just messes everything else up.

Generic LP rewards are better than ISK in that regard, but not a lot better. It artificially ties the profitability of missions and incursions together, which isn't optimal. Different values for LP might be optimal for each.

IMO CCP should remove bounties for NPCs entirely, remove all ISK mission rewards, and replace them with something else that can be converted into something tradeable that people need. Maybe you get a particular faction's LP for killing specific kinds of rats and you get concorde LP only for incursions, but new cool rewards are added to the concorde lp store. Every profession should have a free floating, market driven, profitability level. CCP would still be vaguely setting the profitability level by determining whether it pays out in a good that is in high demand or low demand and whatnot, but within those parameters it will self correct. Hard coded profitability levels are bound to go wrong every time.

I think CCP should stop running incursions in Toys r Us and start to hold them in a particular section of EVE- Doril - Jorund - Hemin - RMOC-W - KQ-WHE - CL-85V - 8G-MQV.

That way, the rest of us can come along and say "hello" to all the brave capsuleers that are keeping us safe from Sansha.

As someone who on occasion runs incursions...they're not faucets. They're fire hoses, a good fleet can make about a bil per person in 8 to 10 hours. I was talking to one guy a few months back. He was 3months into the game and had over 17bil saved from just doing incursions. No real risk means crap tons of profit.

Not to rain on the incursion wreckers parade but if jams last beyond ship destruction thats a broken mechanic and should and Im sure will be fixed soon enough.

As for the rest of it a fleet of 10 people in a WH can make the same amount of isk. A fleet of 10 can run the major plexs in 0.0 that will pay out just as much.

It's working as intended. It's been that way since forever. I know you're just learning about it now, but that's the general problem with highsec bears.

So ... you're basically saying that highsec now has an ISK source as good as running PVE in nullsec and Wormholes (nullsec & no local)? You're also aware that part of the reward of BOTH is market dependent, and not just a magic ISK fountain?

Shall we take this as a confirmation of what we are saying, that the risk:reward is wrong?

To the above poster, Incursions being a lowsec exclusive feature would be excellent. Highsec bears, and sov holders with lucky spawns, have ridden this particular gravy train far enough.

edit: and incursions are NOT a major isk faucet. Dev quote said that the LP rewards chew up most of the isk injected. Incursions are profitable, but do not have a significant affect on the economy, except to get people to play instead of station spin.

edit: and incursions are NOT a major isk faucet. Dev quote said that the LP rewards chew up most of the isk injected. Incursions are profitable, but do not have a significant affect on the economy, except to get people to play instead of station spin.

Not to rain on the incursion wreckers parade but if jams last beyond ship destruction thats a broken mechanic and should and Im sure will be fixed soon enough.

As for the rest of it a fleet of 10 people in a WH can make the same amount of isk. A fleet of 10 can run the major plexs in 0.0 that will pay out just as much..

IMO every activity in eve should pay out in a good of some sort that people need, not straight ISK. That way the market automatically sets the profitability correctly. If it becomes too profitable, more people flood in to do it, the market gets over supplied with that good, and profitability drops. If profitability gets too low, people go do other things and it automatically comes back up. Bounties and ISK rewards break that mechanic. If CCP just sets the bounty amount too low or too high, the market can't correct it. Or at least, the only way the market can correct it is through inflation, but that just messes everything else up.

Generic LP rewards are better than ISK in that regard, but not a lot better. It artificially ties the profitability of missions and incursions together, which isn't optimal. Different values for LP might be optimal for each.

IMO CCP should remove bounties for NPCs entirely, remove all ISK mission rewards, and replace them with something else that can be converted into something tradeable that people need. Maybe you get a particular faction's LP for killing specific kinds of rats and you get concorde LP only for incursions, but new cool rewards are added to the concorde lp store. Every profession should have a free floating, market driven, profitability level. CCP would still be vaguely setting the profitability level by determining whether it pays out in a good that is in high demand or low demand and whatnot, but within those parameters it will self correct. Hard coded profitability levels are bound to go wrong every time.

You're aware that if you run nullsec incursion you'd make almost double what the highsecers do?

edit: and incursions are NOT a major isk faucet. Dev quote said that the LP rewards chew up most of the isk injected

Just some math on LP isk sink relative to payouts:
HS vanguard rewards 10500000 ISK and 1400 Concord LP.

Using 1 LP sinks 1000 ISK, so each vanguard will generate:
10500000 - 1400*1000 = 9100000 ISK per person in the fleet.

That is best case scenario for ISK sink from LP, ie. each person will use all of his LP, and use it all on Concord LP store items, not converting it to other stores LP.

Suicide ganks (face it, that is what this is) are a valid and viable tactic in EVE. This tactic means that your attacker gets blown up, just like in any normal suicide gank. And just like any other suicide gank there are ways to protect yourself from it; in this case it means having redundant systems and not count on the bare minimum. Or bring ECCM.

The loophole that was plugged recently fixed a tactic that gave no warning AND had NO consequence. EVE doesn't do 'no consequences' (or close to it anyway). This tactic has plenty consequences, namely CONCORDdokken + standings/security hits.

Also, it is GM Homonoia - the goddess of concord and oneness of mind.
Not GM Hormone - the family of chemicals that are designed to do weird stuff to your body and mental state.

Hai anonymous forum alt.

Firstly, you are wrong. You're wrong because you haven't a clue what you're talking about, forum alt. You barely break 100mil per hour in lowsec / nullsec Incursions, if you are lucky, for two reasons:

1) You fly cost effective fits. No faction fit Nightmares. That, alone, makes up for nearly the entire difference in reward. Reward per site is irrelevant if you run fewer sites per hour.
2) There will be significant downtime from your site running whilst you are "interrupted"
3) Due to no one else doing them either, the influence bar stays pegged at 100% Sansha penalties. This makes a lot of the Blitz techniques invalid, and ergo the ISK/hr is actually not that awesome at all.

Of course. People running into low/null en masse to do PVE is a giant "come at me bro" magnet, so the risk is pretty damn high.

So, frankly, L2Eve

"We purposely made this very rewarding. We didn't want a situation where agent missions f.x. were out competing this feature.
We did raise the bar relatively high, it is possible to earn a load of isk with this, but that was also the intention when we wrote the reward list. "

Hi non anonymous, but ignorant nullsec bear

1) You fly cost effective fits. No faction fit Nightmares. That, alone, makes up for nearly the entire difference in reward. Reward per site is irrelevant if you run fewer sites per hour.

Just because other nullsec alliances can't get off their high horses to set up a 8 t2 HAC + 2 logi fleet doesn't mean it's highsec's fault.

2) There will be significant downtime from your site running whilst you are "interrupted"

Hi non anonymous, but ignorant nullsec bear.
So you're basically saying because of low interest/not enough organizational effort from nullbears incursions can't be run effectively in non-highsec space?
And this is highsec's fault... we are the ones to blame for your failure at organizing yourself?

Don't be a fool. Every single mother-loving incursion in goon space was farmed to death, revived and then farmed to death again.
Just because other nullsec alliances can't get off their high horses to set up a 8 t2 HAC + 2 logi fleet doesn't mean it's highsec's fault.
Not to count lowsec incursions which are ruled by goons and friends.

Incursions in highsec are supposed to outcompete missions and other solo activities.
Incursions in highsec are supposed to be able to earn you a load of isk.

1 hour in nullsec will net you more than 1 hour in highsec. There's less competition there so you can pick and choose your sites and optimize your fleet to earn 15 m every 3 min. netting out to a 300 million isk an hour.

100+mil an hour in highsec of PURE ISK IS NEW and ergo IS a change in the risk / reward balance.

You live in a ******* fantasy land, seriously.

You're pulling figures out of your ass to support an argument this is flip flapping all over the place, to where it is convenient for you. First I am an "ignorant null bear" and then you claim some kind of "null bear hotline" to generate numbers from thin air. A T2 fit HAC gang is less efficient than a faction fit "shiney" pirate BS fleet. One you can sensibly use in hostile space, the other you cannot.

EVEN IF your figures were true, earning a lot of ISK in nullsec / lowsec / wormholes has been possible for a long, long time. It has largely been ignored by the playerbase on large, because they are too risk adverse to go do it. Instead, their risk-adverse nature has been penalised by their best PVE income source being level 4 missions, a large part of the rewards of which, were tied to an ISK sink.

100+mil an hour in highsec of PURE ISK IS NEW and ergo IS a change in the risk / reward balance.

Please. Come back with some basic logic.

Pointless QQ and throwing toys out of the pram aside, there's one thing in here that should be changed.

Jammers and other ECM effects should dissipate as soon as the ship projecting them is destroyed, not just as a PvE change but a change in general.

Already is like this in PVE (incursions)

I find it intresting that trakling links, remote ECM, target painters, remote repairs, remote sensor boosting, and even sensor damping all stop working when the ship performing the action warps out or is destroyed.

Only jamming persists after the ship has warped off or is destroyed.

I wasn't referring to rat jams, I referred to player jams. But I wouldn't change this purely because of incursion griefers.

I bolded the part where you were being an idiot. Just because anyone can do it, doesn't mean it isn't broken/imbalanced/overpowered/whatever.

CCP Soundwave wrote:
"We purposely made this very rewarding. We didn't want a situation where agent missions f.x. were out competing this feature.
We did raise the bar relatively high, it is possible to earn a load of isk with this, but that was also the intention when we wrote the reward list. "

Hai , I can haz CONCORD in my Wormhole?

Seriously, if you are comparing the incursions in HS with activities in a Wormhole or Null and saying it just pays as much, then there is something wrong in here :)

I bolded the part where you were being an idiot. Just because anyone can do it, doesn't mean it isn't broken/imbalanced/overpowered/whatever.

So what is stopping you from forming a fleet and kill the MOM when it spawns. Or is that to much work?

Nothing.

What exactly was the point you were trying to make here?

I demand that all "wana-be" hi-sec pvper bears be forced to actually pvp, as in shoot those who are only too happy and able to shoot back, rather then the current "shoot everyone as long as they can't shoot back" that passes for pvp in hi-sec.

The high sec incursions is the atm the best way to make isk.

100mil pr hour with basicly 0 risk.
A lot of 0.0 ppl have alts there or go there since it is the best isk/time

A corpy of mine wrote about it in his blog:
http://eveblog.dsan.dk/?p=122

And I predict, that people will leave 0.0 corps and alliances, to go back to highsec and make isk.
So I encourage, corp and alliance guidlines or methods; to organzie, Legislate, control, manage or prevent pilots running incursions in highsec.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61hR4_JlbBo <-- For relevance

If you cant keep up your doing it wrong. You butthurt you cant earn mega isk in eve? Afraid your wallet is going the way of the dodo bird? Inflation eating you in game as much as it is in RL? Dont be butthurt. Figure out a way to make more isk.


When Eve started making a mil isk per hour wouldve been staggering to the majority of Eve. Ive seen the wallets and per hour income grow since I got in game. This is nothing new. This is the way life and games go. Get used to it or unsub....btw can I haz your stuffz?

FYI this whole thread and the whining about jams persisting after ship's death is about "Kill It With Fire" suicide ganking you highsec carebears :) So don't try to turn it around. Go Go cry to CCP about the Jams :D

Good luck with writing random junk, like unsub and etc when none of this was talked by me, go ahead and re-read what I wrote about the comparison. You cannot simply say oh a 10 man fleet can make the same in a WH so it's ok (lawlz).

Nope, I made my comment on the jams, now I gotta lolz that your butthurt that you arent making enough iskies. You broke. Go cry to CCP that you aint got no isk and that everyone is better than you at making it so you must hurt them and stop the bad bad ebil bears!! They willz ruinz your gamez!!!!

Currently on SiSi if you get your ship blown up by Concord, there is no insurance payout. If that makes it to TQ that would be a pretty big game changer for this.

Sending in 3-4 waves of BB to kill a single faction BS would still be worth it for the ISK ratio, but only if some shiny stuff dropped, if they start fitting T2 to those shiny BS, you have to rely strictly on tears which won't keep you in new BB's.

Nope, I made my comment on the jams, now I gotta lolz that your butthurt that you arent making enough iskies. You broke. Go cry to CCP that you aint got no isk and that everyone is better than you at making it so you must hurt them and stop the bad bad ebil bears!! They willz ruinz your gamez!!!!

2/10 for trying to turn the butthurt around :D

Still if your mind works like this

(correcting you on the point that a 10 man WH fleet SHOULD make as much as a 10 man HS incursion fleet so it's ok == being butthurt and broke and etc )

then go see a doctor :) or become a prophet, cause most of them had these kinds of hallucinations.

we've already have enough lulz suicide ganking you and this thread has paid itself in tears over and over.

PS : now reply with something more irrelevant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61hR4_JlbBo <-- For relevance

If you cant keep up your doing it wrong. You butthurt you cant earn mega isk in eve? Afraid your wallet is going the way of the dodo bird? Inflation eating you in game as much as it is in RL? Dont be butthurt. Figure out a way to make more isk.


When Eve started making a mil isk per hour wouldve been staggering to the majority of Eve. Ive seen the wallets and per hour income grow since I got in game. This is nothing new. This is the way life and games go. Get used to it or unsub....btw can I haz your stuffz?

sir, it's 600m/h for 4 ships, do the math.
and the risk is being ambushed and lose them all.

Yeah and this is 100mil/hr for one ship. Do the math!! Its equivalent. And WHs if done right are almost negligible, especially the harder ones to run into anything. Nevermind they have to scan you down while your in the sites which gives you more than enough time. Oh and guess what.... Sanshas can kill you too if you suck. And theyre NPCS!!

You do not need probes to find anomalies and you can completely track down people while cloaked without local. If you think you don't run into things in whs I ask you to go into one, since at least March we've been running into many cloaked fleets prowling around. No dscan will help ya. It is a ******* blast

Been dare dun dat got the badge and cookies.

Should you be able to earn more isk in highsec than in nullsec? Yes.
Because it depends on what you're doing.
What 1 lone pilot is doing in nullsec shouldn't necessary earn him more isk than what 10 pilots are earning each together in an incursion fleet

Wow. The stupid is strong with you.

Why don't you just come out and say "I want highsec Incursions to be the best earner in the game?"
Since all you're doing, is ignoring any counter argument to risk:reward and sucking on the ISK *****.

It's not about how much ONE pilot can earn in an hour, since the activity is a group activity, and ergo scales up in null, too.

Please, tell me, why SHOULD a player be able to earn more in highsec, pray tell?

*sighs* You are only ignorant to the fact that nullsec incursions will earn you more isk...

IF
YOU
ARE
DOING
IT
CORRECTLY

doing it wrong equals flying in an inefficient fleet with wrong ships, fittings and strategies for the sites.

If my alliance had sov in nullsec and an incursion spawned there I'd be extremely happy to run there instead of highsec. In null there's less competition, you can shoot when people **** you off and the rewards are so much higher <3.

Lots of highsec pilots earn more than what a nullsec pilot earns in nullsec. The other way around lots of nullsec pilots earn more than what a highsec pilot earns in highsec.
It all depends on who you pick out.
The explorer in highsec vs. the explorer in nullsec.
The miner in highsec vs. the miner in nullsec.
The incursion runner in highsec vs. the incursion runner in nullsec.

This would be a valid argument 10 months ago. But now when the puggest of the pug fleets has at least maels, sleipnirs and lokis, its pretty bad. It will only get more over the top as time goes on and everyone starts settling into their shiny nightmare they bought with incursion isk. In BTL pub i'd say the scrub ships being advertised are in the minority now.




What it comes down to is that a somewhat better reward doesn't scale well with uninterrupted farming in safe conditions using optimized pimp setups.

Sanctums compare favorably with incursions right up until you consider that most space cant have them, and that you can't exactly travel to them like you can with highsec incursions. Those that do host sanctums are saturated with ratters, and getting good anoms in succession is anything but steady.

The same is true for ded sites and exploration, but in a more dramatic way. You can easily make more than incursions, but it depends on how lucky you are between the sites spawning, escalations and the drops.

I insincerely hope the guy that thought up incursions was in that 20% cut.
If not, please fire more sets of 20% at random untill you hit jackpot.

Do the same with the guy that thought introducing a "hit this and get rich" anom-scanner button was a luminous improvement to the game.

Instead, find the guy that dit WH space and clone him about two hundred times and fire everyone else.


If it's the same guy, nah, not possible.

the same with your super duper incursion, sir.
if you die to sansha, you better get back to WoW

here's a fun idea: Incursioners should start using suicide alts to jam logis and wipe fleets rather than trying to contest them. They'll get some shiny faction loot, T2 salvage, plus more incursion rewards. Sounds like a perfect TDF tactic.

Is it wrong that when I read that CCP laid off 20% of their staff relating to WoD, Incarna, and other errata, the first thing I thought was: CCP just got 20% cooler?

~Andrei.