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Hoshi
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Posted - 2006.05.06 21:22:00 -
[31]
Just give the t1 version a speed penalty (the attribute is there even on covert ops cloak, it's just 0%), 25-33% maybe? And a higher sensor recalibration time, 15-20 sec instead of 10. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Asharaak
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Posted - 2006.05.08 08:17:00 -
[32]
With hindsight, I think Covert Cloaks (and Covert Cloaks only) should have been designed as an integral part of the ship rather than as a seperate module (or at least a module which is permanently fitted and can't be removed).
Too late to implement this now of course, but would have saved some headaches (especially the conflict with Cynosuaral Field Generators and fitting probe launchers).
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James Lyrus
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Posted - 2006.05.08 08:30:00 -
[33]
There's only a few T2 ships that can do things that their T1 equivalents can't.
Covert Ops, and Force Recon ships are among them.
(Interdictors are the other one, everything else you have a 'tech 1 option' for covering that role, although they're generally not as good.)
Now, without a covert ops device, a covert ops ship, or force recon ship is a bad choice - A rifter would do better at scouting than a buzzard without a cloak, and if you really need the probe speed, the heron is able to cover.
Force Recon ships, the Combat Recon is better in pretty much every way except for the covert ops cloak.
Demand has increased, because there's a whole new class of ship, supply has not. -- We are recruiting
We sell Chimeras. |
FFGR
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Posted - 2006.05.08 09:53:00 -
[34]
Quote: If nothing else, introducing recons and bombers without dramatically increasing the number of cloak BPOs was a serious miscalculation.
Recons didn't boost the price so much. The price was boosted because of the Stealth Bomber buff, that increased the needs for the cloaks, as most people were flying their bomber without a cloak up to that time. If you check the market and the date that it was introduced, you will see that.
Quote: Back that first statement up with reasons, don't assume that things "plainly" evident to you are evident to everybody.To the second, see Helmut's idea - some people will still pay a premium for the elite module, but it won't be an absolute requirement just to fit your ship for what it was designed to do. So it'd just be kicking those people back down to the same level of "fair" as the rest of the T2 BPO holders.
The CO cloak is like a T3 product. When and if T3 comes out, they will use the T2 products. As a matter of fact, a CO Cloak BPO produces 1 cloak every 5h 20m with perfect skills and 0 PE researched. Now a CO ship has a 6h 40m with perfect skills again and 0 PE. Yes, there are much more ship BPOs than cloaks. Is there a lack of CO cloaks on the market ? No. Also inserting a "basic" cloak is what I oppose to. I'm not a T2 producer.
BS were once more expensive than they are now, because of the minerals. Now CO cloaks are more expensive because of price gouging in Improved cloaks. It IS a comparison of t1 product with t2 product, but the reason of the price is the same. More expensive ingridients.
You may lose every day a ship with a t1 or t2 cloak, but losing many CO ships means you are a bad pilot, nothing more nothing less. And I have yet to see any decent scout/ss buster to use "Herons and Rifters". It is a team game, if you lost a CO ship while scouting, your friends should help you buy a new one if you don't have the money, afterall you are scouting/ss busting for other people. _____________________________
siggys v. 0.5 |
Reatu Krentor
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Posted - 2006.05.08 10:43:00 -
[35]
I don't know if it's needed to make a T1 version of the covert ops cloak, but i'm rather thinking the covert cloak needing a T2 module to be built is wrong. T2 is limited in supply and on it's own the improved cloak is already usefull(stealth bomber). That means there won't be many left to convert into covert cloaks, driving up the cost to build covert ops cloak. Having the covert cloak use the T1 cloak would go quite a way to making the covert ops cloak more available. The fact that there is a second ship class that now uses covert cloaks which will/can be used in combat(covert cloaks will get destroyed, not just because of bad piloting) makes the lack of supply clearer to see. - phew! dodged the mods on this sig!
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Butter Dog
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Posted - 2006.05.08 11:23:00 -
[36]
Its basic supply and demand.
A covert ops ship or three is a very important addition to fleets. Essential, in fact.
Its expensive because its worth every penny, and thats what people are willing to pay.
I quite like the fact they are expensive, it demonstrates how valuable covert ops really are. And at the end of the day, the price *would* fall if people stop paying 40m for them.
As it currently stands though, I do pay 40m for them, hell I would even pay 60m for them - they are just too important to let cost truly be an issue.
------------------ www.eve-iss.com |
Nyxus
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Posted - 2006.05.08 13:37:00 -
[37]
I agree with you completely Hakera.
The price needs to be adjusted. The Force Recons and Covert Ops Frigs *NEED* these modules in order to function. The cloaking bpos were some of the first experiments in T2 production (even the proto cloaks have limited bpos) but that time has passed and it needs to be rectified.
For those claiming "someone price gouging your eyes out is fine cuz I don't fly it" please consider what would happen if suddenly the price of every 1mn microwarp drive & AB shot up to 45-50m. Ceptors would be useless without them and the whining would be immense. This is the same scenario.
Nyxus
Macgyver can build an airplane out of gum and paper clips, but Chuck Norris can kill him and take it.
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Joshua Foiritain
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Posted - 2006.05.08 13:45:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Butter Dog Its basic supply and demand.
Basic yet stupid, CCP doubled the ships using cov ops cloaks and unnerfed the ship using improved cloaks, everyone and their dog saw what the result would be, well bar CCP that is.
PS: Cov ops & improved cloaks will only become more expensive. -------
[Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
Chaimera
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Posted - 2006.05.08 13:54:00 -
[39]
Modulated Deep Core Strip Miner IIs are the same. The T1 item they are constructed from is the Deep Core Miner I.
Which is totally different than the T2 item it is supposedly related to. While this has not caused the price of the strip miners to continue to be high, when they were first released it was a huge problem. The miners cost more than the ship they were supposed to be fitted on because there was no cheap T1 option to balence them out. ============================== Beware of the killer grumpies! |
Raphaella
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Posted - 2006.05.08 14:07:00 -
[40]
cap recharger 2 anyone,,, isnt this the same story all over again in some way
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Derran
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Posted - 2006.05.08 15:25:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Raphaella cap recharger 2 anyone,,, isnt this the same story all over again in some way
Worse. The price of all of the items increased by about 250% overnight. Covert Ops cloak II requires Improved Ops cloak II which requires Prototype Cloak.
Can someone explain why it is a 'Covert Ops Cloak II' and Improved Ops Cloak II' when there is no T1 equivalent of either? And why is a Prototype Cloak BPO only available from an R&D agent? It is a T1 item, right? That's pretty screwed up and it has always been something I have been wondering.
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Litus Arowar
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Posted - 2006.05.09 12:28:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Raphaella cap recharger 2 anyone,,, isnt this the same story all over again in some way
Cap Recharger II: 1pg 15cpu 20% cap recharge rate Eutectic Cap: 1pg 8cpu 18% cap recharge rate Dark Blood Cap: 1pg 10cpu 20% cap recharge rate
the difference between the cloaks and the cap rechargers is that there's not at all necessary to use cap recharger IIs... it's an advantage but not a necessity... getting eutectics is far more affordable, and they're only slightly less effective, they're not missing a feature
with cloaks, if you're gonna fly a covops or a force recon, you NEED a cov ops cloak... the other cloaks won't be even nearly as effective, because you'll be missing speed, scan res, and the ability to warp cloaked...
this definitely needs looking at, an introduction of some t1 variants of all the items, and a fix to the production order
Originally by: cytomatrix Try sitting inside a big frickin ball filled up with glue and tubes stuck up your nose and your arse. Then compare RL and Eve.
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Charles Yeager
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Posted - 2006.05.09 12:46:00 -
[43]
I just got a rapier for 69M, and was shocked to find the covert ops cloaking device to be going for 43M (which I told was a great price at the time). I know its not unheard of of mods costing as much as the ship or even more, but this is tech 2, not an uber officer drop.
Until now I had only bought one covert ops cloaking device, which was for my cheetah, and I got it back when they cost 13M. I have had it for over a year, but I would be lying if I said I did not have a few close calls.
I think CCP needs to introduce a T1 variant that carries a stiff speed penalty but allows warping while cloaked.
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Hakera
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Posted - 2006.05.13 19:06:00 -
[44]
sooo, any thoughts from CCP on the issue? I love paying 7mill for a covert ops frig and 43mill for the cloak. ¼_¼
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.05.13 19:21:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Hakera
Originally by: Xthril Ranger
Originally by: Syrec The truth of the matter is that there is a price syndicate/monopoly on Covert Ops II cloaks.
If that is true CCP shouldnt come and bail us out.
in this case they should, as a required module for ship to function, they are an unfair bottleneck which no other ship has that requires a module to work. a module in this case very poorly distrubuted as a function of the bpo distrubution and build requirements.
Eh. Introduce a T1 covert cloak, not quite as good as todays T2, then boost the T2 slightly. That way the BPO holders get to keep the special AND we get the new covert T1 cloak BPO on the market.
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
Deja Thoris
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Posted - 2006.05.13 19:36:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Asharaak With hindsight, I think Covert Cloaks (and Covert Cloaks only) should have been designed as an integral part of the ship rather than as a seperate module (or at least a module which is permanently fitted and can't be removed).
Too late to implement this now of course, but would have saved some headaches (especially the conflict with Cynosuaral Field Generators and fitting probe launchers).
Thats a pretty sweet idea.
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Nyxus
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Posted - 2006.05.13 21:27:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Deja Thoris
Originally by: Asharaak With hindsight, I think Covert Cloaks (and Covert Cloaks only) should have been designed as an integral part of the ship rather than as a seperate module (or at least a module which is permanently fitted and can't be removed).
Too late to implement this now of course, but would have saved some headaches (especially the conflict with Cynosuaral Field Generators and fitting probe launchers).
Thats a pretty sweet idea.
I agree. Making them part of the ship would be nice, but would probably screw the CO and ICD holders.
I think Maya's idea of making a T1 version and beefing up the T2 version sounds like the most promising compromise. We actually see reasonable pricing and the T2 BPO holders would still have something unique and producable.
Nyxus
Once he presses "activate F1", Mr Titan is no longer your friend. |
NocturnalDeath
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Posted - 2006.05.14 04:44:00 -
[48]
I dont understand why people whine about supply/demand of Cloaks/HACs/etc instead of fixing it themselves in-game.
If you want cheaper HACs/Cloaks buy the BPO from the owner and run you off a supply. We would all be greatful if you would supply the market with cheap HACs/Cloaks THANKS!
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Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2006.05.14 04:55:00 -
[49]
TBH, cov ops cloaks are not expensive enough. Else wont be seeing my enemies in cov ops all the time. Annoying ships they are. Wished to have ways to destroy them. ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT! Corporate Consultation Services |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2006.05.14 05:05:00 -
[50]
uhm.. they were 15mil not too long ago when i bought one.. what happend? ------ FPDOMS MINER KILLBOARD |
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Hamatitio
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Posted - 2006.05.14 05:08:00 -
[51]
its not the covert ops cloaks that are a cartel.
its the improved. ---
Originally by: Wrangler ...why do you people always have to verbally assault each other over things that doesn't matter anyway?
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Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2006.05.14 05:18:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Hamatitio its not the covert ops cloaks that are a cartel.
its the improved.
Maybe because cloaks are too useful/imbalanced that everyone is buying them. So it is only logical to cartel them. ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT! Corporate Consultation Services |
Hakera
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Posted - 2006.05.14 14:58:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Jim Raynor uhm.. they were 15mil not too long ago when i bought one.. what happend?
long story short, stealth bombers + recons + greedy t2 industrialists = price through the roof.
Its just crap that a essential module for a ship to function is distrubuted via t2 method when every other similar module is t1.
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Evil Thug
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Posted - 2006.05.14 15:04:00 -
[54]
CCP seed Recon cruisers into game. So, number of ships, using cov. ops cloaking device doubled. (4 cov. ops then, 4 cov. ops + 4 recon atm). Ofc they seed another amount of covert ops cloaking II bpo`s. Oh... Wait, nvm. ----------------------------------------------- Logged in a system, next to you =) |
4 LOM
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Posted - 2006.05.14 19:25:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Hakera
Originally by: Jim Raynor uhm.. they were 15mil not too long ago when i bought one.. what happend?
long story short, stealth bombers + recons + greedy t2 industrialists = price through the roof.
Its just crap that a essential module for a ship to function is distrubuted via t2 method when every other similar module is t1.
I own 0 tech 2 bpo's so this is not me defending myself. Tech 2 bpo holders charge what we as consumers are willing to pay. Do not blame them for being gready, we need to blame ourselves for disking out massive amounts for there goods.
If they did not charge the going market price for there items someone would simply purchase the item and re-sell it thus making the profits and doing none of the work (getting components together, reseraching the bpo and what not).
This has nothing to do with the producers, the problem with cloacks is there crazy production lines, 3x tech 2 bpos involved in the creation of 1x tech 2 item means that there simply is not enough supply to satisify the demand therfore the price goes way up. CCP really just needs to release some tech 1 variants and change the production line on these so each require its tech 1 variant to build the tech 2 version.
But dont blame the tech 2 producers, especially for covert ops cloacks. Everyone who blames the producers of items is clearly lacking an understanding of how the eve economy works.
Originally by: Twilight Moon of course you have nice hair. That pod goo, is actually VO5 conditioner.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.05.14 19:53:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 14/05/2006 19:54:17
Originally by: Hamatitio its not the covert ops cloaks that are a cartel.
its the improved.
Yes, but that puts the covert prices, which depend on the improved, through the roof.
4 LOM, the price rose very sharply thanks to manufacturer action. This is one of the three modules where market demand does NOT determine prices, and the covert prices are high because the improved ones are high. (The other module here being the cap recharger II...you can see how ridiculous the price of THAT is by the price of the best named one!).
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
Hamatitio
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Posted - 2006.05.14 21:36:00 -
[57]
I know maya, people are saying htere is a covert ops cloak cartel.
There isn't.
It's one 'enterprising' individual who has control of most of the Improved cloaks, which inturn, raise the covert prices.
Blame the improved cloak producers, was my main point in that post with 6 words, formulating no coherent sentence. ---
Originally by: Wrangler ...why do you people always have to verbally assault each other over things that doesn't matter anyway?
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Kaylana Syi
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Posted - 2006.05.15 10:48:00 -
[58]
Simple Fix... make both of the t2 cloaks only require the prototype. Then seed the prototype cloak BPO on the market. It is only fair. CCP should not be liable for breaking monopolies when it is cleary a game mechanic out of whack. This is more akin to miner 2 monopoly mistake than any cap recharger 2 monopoly.
Originally by: "Oveur" I don't react to threats any better than you do
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Jon Hawkes
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Posted - 2006.05.15 11:03:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Kaylana Syi Simple Fix... make both of the t2 cloaks only require the prototype. Then seed the prototype cloak BPO on the market. It is only fair. CCP should not be liable for breaking monopolies when it is cleary a game mechanic out of whack. This is more akin to miner 2 monopoly mistake than any cap recharger 2 monopoly.
In fairness, that is one of the best ideas I've heard in this thread yet. Doesn't mean it will happen unfortunately...
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Taurequis
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Posted - 2006.05.15 11:31:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Asharaak With hindsight, I think Covert Cloaks (and Covert Cloaks only) should have been designed as an integral part of the ship rather than as a seperate module (or at least a module which is permanently fitted and can't be removed).
Too late to implement this now of course, but would have saved some headaches (especially the conflict with Cynosuaral Field Generators and fitting probe launchers).
I knew about the cyno & cloak conflict (pls god Dev's fix this soon!!). Whats the issue with the probe launchers?
Best Regards,
Taurequis
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