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Karak Kashada Dispensation 23	Posted - 2014.04.11 00:42:00 - [181] - Quote Erufen Rito wrote: Karak Kashada wrote: Erufen Rito wrote: Karak Kashada wrote: One who desires X ship and X mods does, indeed have to wait. There is no rational dispute to this. One's reasons for wanting those things are immaterial to the OP. Always have been. How is this different from any other MMO? I believe that I detailed that very thing in the OP. I wish people would read (and understand) it before posting. Oh I did read. You just failed to coherently answer my question, thus, it's here, being asked. In any other MMO, if you want item x or y, you have to craft it, or buy it, or grind for it. All 3 of them imply some level of waiting for results. If we are talking about levels, you have to log off, wait for your rested xp, and then go back to the grind, assuming you want to get there ASAP. Did I miss something? Yes. You missed my comments in the OP about time value, etc.
Erufen Rito The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People 136	Posted - 2014.04.11 00:44:00 - [182] - Quote Claud Tiberius wrote: I have to pretty much agree with the OP. As a new player I feel there is a huge amount of training and a huge amount of experience required to become competitive, which isn't so easy to obtain since EVE is a very unforgiving game and new accounts do not have the same source of income as older accounts. The fun factor is limited. I'm not going to try and tell you that you are wrong. Being a new player CAN limit what you can't and cannot do, and how often you can afford to die. Granted, you have to learn the game, and that will often cost you money. But again, playing catch up is really a non issue. There is a fixed number of skills that will affect a ship and it's modules, so after a bit of time, you will be as good at doing whatever you specizlised in doing as the 10 year vet, SP at least. The rest comes from playing the game and knowing how to react to the different situations you can find yourself in. This is as nice as I get. Best quote ever https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4137165#post4137165
Moneta Curran Lunar Industries Ltd 292	Posted - 2014.04.11 00:44:00 - [183] - Quote Claud Tiberius wrote: I have to pretty much agree with the OP. As a new player I feel there is a huge amount of training and a huge amount of experience required to become competitive, which isn't so easy to obtain since EVE is a very unforgiving game and new accounts do not have the same source of income as older accounts. The fun factor is limited. You do realise that each and every one of us started as a new player.. The older ones under arguably harsher conditions even. It is a challenge. Rise to it, or leave. Only you can decide if you're having fun.
Erufen Rito The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People 136	Posted - 2014.04.11 00:47:00 - [184] - Quote Karak Kashada wrote: Erufen Rito wrote: Karak Kashada wrote: Erufen Rito wrote: Karak Kashada wrote: One who desires X ship and X mods does, indeed have to wait. There is no rational dispute to this. One's reasons for wanting those things are immaterial to the OP. Always have been. How is this different from any other MMO? I believe that I detailed that very thing in the OP. I wish people would read (and understand) it before posting. Oh I did read. You just failed to coherently answer my question, thus, it's here, being asked. In any other MMO, if you want item x or y, you have to craft it, or buy it, or grind for it. All 3 of them imply some level of waiting for results. If we are talking about levels, you have to log off, wait for your rested xp, and then go back to the grind, assuming you want to get there ASAP. Did I miss something? Yes. You missed my comments in the OP about time value, etc. Care to enlighten me, I simply cannot see it. This is as nice as I get. Best quote ever https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4137165#post4137165
Tonai Kion Rock Breaker Industrial 6	Posted - 2014.04.11 00:51:00 - [185] - Quote Karak Kashada wrote: I appreciate the added perspective. But I fail to see how this could help me "see farther and clearer than the unimaginative masses" where the utility of EVE's current skills-training mechanism is concerned. It's all pretty cut-and-dry. If a player wants to fly A ship and fit B mods, he will train C skills, which will take D time. And this requires my imagination to appreciate? What I don't understand is why you need Ship A and fit B in the first place. If you want to do some hauling, you've got a newbie ship for that that can fit Meta 4 mods which are just as good as Tech IIs most of the time. You don't need a smuggler freighter to move stuff around in low sec/null sec, a t-1 indy can work just fine if you know how to fly her. If you want to do some solo PVP, you've got beginner ships that are fantastic for that, they don't take long to train up either. They also can fit Meta 4 mods. I mean obviously a player who has been around longer is going to beat you up if you make a mistake and they know how to handle themselves in a fight. They have several advantages over you. It doesn't make them unbeatable though. You are going to need some friends to take down tough targets however. I can honestly say the Skilling system hasn't prevented me from doing anything I wanted to do in this game. It has stopped me from doing things as efficiently as I'd like, but I consider that a challenge. I've learned how to mickey mouse fits and when I need to run away from missions and rats because my tank isn't strong enough or I wasn't cap stable, and ran out of energy. I've learned to keep an eye on local and that railguns make terrible weapons when you enemy gets the jump on you. The system rewards people who keep at the game with some bonuses that newbies aren't going to have, but like every other game, if they make a mistake, you can get right up in their grill and punish them for it.
masternerdguy State Protectorate Caldari State 1605	Posted - 2014.04.11 00:51:00 - [186] - Quote Karak Kashada wrote: Yes. You missed my comments in the OP about time value, etc. Your in-game time is valuable, because it gives you the practical knowledge to use your tools. Not to mention EVE isn't about the ships or the modules, it is about the dynamic relationships between the player driven groups. Those are just tools to make that possible. Things are only impossible until they are not.
PotatoOverdose Handsome Millionaire Playboys 1350	Posted - 2014.04.11 00:52:00 - [187] - Quote Moneta Curran wrote: Claud Tiberius wrote: I have to pretty much agree with the OP. As a new player I feel there is a huge amount of training and a huge amount of experience required to become competitive, which isn't so easy to obtain since EVE is a very unforgiving game and new accounts do not have the same source of income as older accounts. The fun factor is limited. You do realise that each and every one of us started as a new player.. The older ones under arguably harsher conditions even. It is a challenge. Rise to it, or leave. Only you can decide if you're having fun. Incidentally, when this character was but a few months old I lived in a wormhole. One day, a wh opened to providence. Much like Karak, I took a manticore with probe launcher in search of some kills. I found a helios, tackled it, and proceeded to shoot it for 14 minutes. Eventually I killed the helios, but as I did a CVA defense fleet showed up to put me out of my misery. Later I learned that torps are quite bad for shooting anything smaller than a battlecruiser. We were all noobs at some point.
Karak Kashada Dispensation 23	Posted - 2014.04.11 00:52:00 - [188] - Quote Erufen Rito wrote: Care to enlighten me, I simply cannot see it. No, I do not care to. It is there as plain as day. If you cannot see it, you didn't ever read it. At least, that is the only polite conclusion I can offer.
masternerdguy State Protectorate Caldari State 1605	Posted - 2014.04.11 00:54:00 - [189] - Quote Karak Kashada wrote: Erufen Rito wrote: Care to enlighten me, I simply cannot see it. No, I do not care to. It is there as plain as day. If you cannot see it, you didn't ever read it. At least, that is the only polite conclusion I can offer. You ever considered running for political office? Things are only impossible until they are not.
Hasikan Miallok Republic University Minmatar Republic 565	Posted - 2014.04.11 00:57:00 - [190] - Quote Claud Tiberius wrote: I have to pretty much agree with the OP. As a new player I feel there is a huge amount of training and a huge amount of experience required to become competitive, which isn't so easy to obtain since EVE is a very unforgiving game and new accounts do not have the same source of income as older accounts. The fun factor is limited. Experience yes .... training NO unless you are single focused on achieving specific unrealistic goals. Much of the issue with new players is they want to: PVE a) Fly a Marauder, T3 or battleship, all of which are "end game" goals for high sec PvE there is nothing after these b) Run level IV missions, which aside from incursions is pretty much an end game goal for high sec PvE c) Pay for the first month and then PLEX for free ever after, (which if achievable would mean the game would fail due to lack of funding) PVP Instead of joining a PvP corp or FW they expect to be able to just wander about and kill stuff Even IF training is an issue there are two obvious solutions. 1) Buy a trained character on the Bazaar. 2) Sub for 6 months, set the queues, go play something else until you have the SP you think is necessary

Claud Tiberius Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF 29	Posted - 2014.04.11 00:58:00 - [191] - Quote Moneta Curran wrote: Claud Tiberius wrote: I have to pretty much agree with the OP. As a new player I feel there is a huge amount of training and a huge amount of experience required to become competitive, which isn't so easy to obtain since EVE is a very unforgiving game and new accounts do not have the same source of income as older accounts. The fun factor is limited. You do realise that each and every one of us started as a new player.. The older ones under arguably harsher conditions even. It is a challenge. Rise to it, or leave. Only you can decide if you're having fun. Harsher conditions - I don't think so. There were not always higher level players and the game probably wasn't as populated as it is now. Rising to the challenge is easier said then done. Its either trial and error, repeated many times over. Or you are luckily enough to have someone hold your hand. Erufen Rito wrote: I'm not going to try and tell you that you are wrong. Being a new player CAN limit what you can't and cannot do, and how often you can afford to die. Granted, you have to learn the game, and that will often cost you money. But again, playing catch up is really a non issue. There is a fixed number of skills that will affect a ship and it's modules, so after a bit of time, you will be as good at doing whatever you specizlised in doing as the 10 year vet, SP at least. The rest comes from playing the game and knowing how to react to the different situations you can find yourself in. Indeed, after a "while".
Tonai Kion Rock Breaker Industrial 6	Posted - 2014.04.11 01:00:00 - [192] - Quote I thought I missed something from the OP and I think I can address it a little better now that I've thought a bit more on it. EVE doesn't just reward you with ISK for you time spent in it while waiting to fly a better ship. Depending on your play style, You can gain notoriety in the local system you terrorize, You can set up and maintain a production circuit dedicated to producing things you care about, You can hunt for rare items in anomalies, And above all what you can do is impact the game for others. This game isn't about just one person having fun, we have our suicide gankers, our Mercenaries, our indy and mining corps, and a host of other organizations. The point is that in the sandbox the endgame is whatever and whenever you decide it is. It's a social game, and to be honest the lone wolf playstyle is the hardest one to have in this game.
Erufen Rito The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People 136	Posted - 2014.04.11 01:00:00 - [193] - Quote Karak Kashada wrote: Erufen Rito wrote: Care to enlighten me, I simply cannot see it. No, I do not care to. It is there as plain as day. If you cannot see it, you didn't ever read it. At least, that is the only polite conclusion I can offer. Lol. Whatever man. You can't rationalize an argument, so now it's my job to debunk your OP and try to feed you an answer, like a mad toddler who refuzes to eat. All you are doing is whinning it seems, because you refuse to understand what the game is. This is not a game you want to play for long, I can guarantee you that much. This is as nice as I get. Best quote ever https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4137165#post4137165
masternerdguy State Protectorate Caldari State 1606	Posted - 2014.04.11 01:00:00 - [194] - Quote Claud Tiberius wrote: Moneta Curran wrote: Claud Tiberius wrote: I have to pretty much agree with the OP. As a new player I feel there is a huge amount of training and a huge amount of experience required to become competitive, which isn't so easy to obtain since EVE is a very unforgiving game and new accounts do not have the same source of income as older accounts. The fun factor is limited. You do realise that each and every one of us started as a new player.. The older ones under arguably harsher conditions even. It is a challenge. Rise to it, or leave. Only you can decide if you're having fun. Harsher conditions - I don't think so. There were not always higher level players and the game probably wasn't as populated as it is now. Rising to the challenge is easier said then done. Its either trial and error, repeated many times over. Or you are luckily enough to have someone hold your hand. Erufen Rito wrote: I'm not going to try and tell you that you are wrong. Being a new player CAN limit what you can't and cannot do, and how often you can afford to die. Granted, you have to learn the game, and that will often cost you money. But again, playing catch up is really a non issue. There is a fixed number of skills that will affect a ship and it's modules, so after a bit of time, you will be as good at doing whatever you specizlised in doing as the 10 year vet, SP at least. The rest comes from playing the game and knowing how to react to the different situations you can find yourself in. Indeed, after a "while". A 2014 character telling a 2007 character he doesn't know what the game was like back then Things are only impossible until they are not.
Hasikan Miallok Republic University Minmatar Republic 565	Posted - 2014.04.11 01:05:00 - [195] - Quote Claud Tiberius wrote: Harsher conditions - I don't think so. There were not always higher level players and the game probably wasn't as populated as it is now. Rising to the challenge is easier said then done. Its either trial and error, repeated many times over. Or you are luckily enough to have someone hold your hand. The game has been simplified and dumbed down substantially the last few years. it is happening again with the summer expansion where drones are being changed so new players can achieve almost the same results as vets with T1 drones and level IV skills.
Kaarous Aldurald ROC Deep Space The ROC 4588	Posted - 2014.04.11 01:06:00 - [196] - Quote Karak Kashada wrote: Yes. You missed my comments in the OP about time value, etc. Your time isn't valued. Suggesting that it should be, is suggesting that the game should be grind to win. And since the entire premise of the game's skill system consists of NOT running the rat wheel, your statement is asinine. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." -áPsychotic Monk for CSM9.
Moneta Curran Lunar Industries Ltd 292	Posted - 2014.04.11 01:09:00 - [197] - Quote Claud Tiberius wrote: Moneta Curran wrote: Claud Tiberius wrote: I have to pretty much agree with the OP. As a new player I feel there is a huge amount of training and a huge amount of experience required to become competitive, which isn't so easy to obtain since EVE is a very unforgiving game and new accounts do not have the same source of income as older accounts. The fun factor is limited. You do realise that each and every one of us started as a new player.. The older ones under arguably harsher conditions even. It is a challenge. Rise to it, or leave. Only you can decide if you're having fun. Harsher conditions - I don't think so. There were not always higher level players and the game probably wasn't as populated as it is now. Rising to the challenge is easier said then done. Its either trial and error, repeated many times over. Or you are luckily enough to have someone hold your hand. We had to train learning skills for weeks so we could train skills that actually helped at a decent rate. None of the hand-outs the tutorial gives you were available. I don't even recall a tutorial, just a confused mess of a help channel.. 5 years ago, we had to contend with 5 years old characters. You're just not aware of this, I gather.
Hasikan Miallok Republic University Minmatar Republic 565	Posted - 2014.04.11 01:10:00 - [198] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Karak Kashada wrote: Yes. You missed my comments in the OP about time value, etc. Your time isn't valued. Suggesting that it should be, is suggesting that the game should be grind to win. And since the entire premise of the game's skill system consists of NOT running the rat wheel, your statement is asinine. Also you get SP even if you do not login at all except to queue a new skill. SP is not related to hours spent playing. The whole point of the EVE skill system is to detach SP from the amount of time someone has to login. Having played MMOs where most of the player base are institutionalized (jail/hospital/whatever) or in high school becasue you need bulk free time to succeed I much prefer the EVE system.
Derath Ellecon Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal 2152	Posted - 2014.04.11 01:12:00 - [199] - Quote Claud Tiberius wrote: I have to pretty much agree with the OP. As a new player I feel there is a huge amount of training and a huge amount of experience required to become competitive, which isn't so easy to obtain since EVE is a very unforgiving game and new accounts do not have the same source of income as older accounts. The fun factor is limited. I guess it is all perspective. I still look back fondly on my first couple of months in EVE. I didn't think abuot "competing" with people. I enjoyed and loved learning all about the game. I roamed all over. It was a blast.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 20592	Posted - 2014.04.11 01:13:00 - [200] - Quote Claud Tiberius wrote: Harsher conditions - I don't think so. You really should think so. Money was harder to find, stuff cost more, lower-level equipment was deliberately useless, information was much more scarce, the game was far less user-friendly and offered zero guidance, space was more dangerous, training was a lot slower and with a lot less ability to adjust it than what's available today, skills were a lot more expensive (in time as well as ISK), and yes, there were higher-level players from a very early point. Maybe you have some special and rather peculiar notion of what constitutes GÇ£harsher conditionsGÇ¥GÇª? But not even back then did you ever have to wait to play the game, so there's always that. Quote: Indeed, after a "while". The point is that you don't have to wait 10 years to be at the level of a 10-year character. The GÇ£whileGÇ¥ is actually very very short, and being on the same level isn't even necessary. In fact, in many cases it's downright detrimental to use that as the goal to aim for. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1.

masternerdguy State Protectorate Caldari State 1606	Posted - 2014.04.11 01:13:00 - [201] - Quote Hasikan Miallok wrote: Having played MMOs where most of the player base are institutionalized (jail/hospital/whatever) or in high school becasue you need bulk free time to succeed I much prefer the EVE system. What country lets you play MMOs in jail? Things are only impossible until they are not.
Kaarous Aldurald ROC Deep Space The ROC 4588	Posted - 2014.04.11 01:22:00 - [202] - Quote masternerdguy wrote: Hasikan Miallok wrote: Having played MMOs where most of the player base are institutionalized (jail/hospital/whatever) or in high school becasue you need bulk free time to succeed I much prefer the EVE system. What country lets you play MMOs in jail? Take a wild guess. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." -áPsychotic Monk for CSM9.
PrettyMuch Always Right University of Caille Gallente Federation 23	Posted - 2014.04.11 01:24:00 - [203] - Quote Just took part in the RvB vs E-Uni war in nothing but a destroyer. Most fun I've had in a year. EVE is for the creative, not for those watching a training queue tick away.
Webvan State Protectorate Caldari State 714	Posted - 2014.04.11 03:14:00 - [204] - Quote Karak Kashada wrote: If you are an EVE veteran, I salute you. You have done what I cannotGÇöand will notGÇödo; you have endured the perpetual training cycles required to, at last, land you in the place you wanted to be. My time is simply worth more than what EVE offers in exchange. If you are thinking about joining EVE, consider yourself forewarned. If what you say is true, then no vet would ever roll an alt other than for forum trolling. I mean your typical low SP (1-10m) alt. Not speaking of account alts/multi-accounts, just regular specialized alts on the same vet account. But we do, and they are a blast to play, so much so CCP now offers muti-character training using PLEX. Prob is you are dreaming too big? This isn't the typical level progression mmo where you cap out and show off your micro-rewards, really bored, and then play something else while you wait for the next expansion. Fact is low SP characters are a blast to play, if you just leave all the other-game thinking at the door. But I did it too to some degree, big plans and ideas and all that, apart from my love for exploration/hacking (before the damn mini-game crap that killed it for me) which is/was easy early on. Now I'm quite content honing out T2 frig combat skills, cross-training, lots and lots of ships in my hanger from frigs on up to BS' (at least on one of my characters), one month skill que plans about the limit any longer. The best-laid plans of mice and men often go awry. Those other games just play with your head, they hire psychologists to find out how to mesmerize you long enough to get their hands in your money pocket. Nothing developed around actual fun-factor really, but around the wallet and whatever level of fun they can squeeze out of that focus. Maybe time to relearn how to just have fun?
Erufen Rito The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People 136	Posted - 2014.04.11 03:31:00 - [205] - Quote Claud Tiberius wrote: Moneta Curran wrote: Claud Tiberius wrote: I have to pretty much agree with the OP. As a new player I feel there is a huge amount of training and a huge amount of experience required to become competitive, which isn't so easy to obtain since EVE is a very unforgiving game and new accounts do not have the same source of income as older accounts. The fun factor is limited. You do realise that each and every one of us started as a new player.. The older ones under arguably harsher conditions even. It is a challenge. Rise to it, or leave. Only you can decide if you're having fun. Harsher conditions - I don't think so. There were not always higher level players and the game probably wasn't as populated as it is now. Rising to the challenge is easier said then done. Its either trial and error, repeated many times over. Or you are luckily enough to have someone hold your hand. Erufen Rito wrote: I'm not going to try and tell you that you are wrong. Being a new player CAN limit what you can't and cannot do, and how often you can afford to die. Granted, you have to learn the game, and that will often cost you money. But again, playing catch up is really a non issue. There is a fixed number of skills that will affect a ship and it's modules, so after a bit of time, you will be as good at doing whatever you specizlised in doing as the 10 year vet, SP at least. The rest comes from playing the game and knowing how to react to the different situations you can find yourself in. Indeed, after a "while". I had no one to hold my hand and walk me through the motions. I started playing with 2 other friends from RL, and we had the same tools everyone else did at the time: Google and F12. If you expect the game to hand you everything you need, you are in for a shock. Also, I guess my scale of what is an acceptable amount of time invested in this game is of a somewhat different ratio than yours. I have no qualms with the skill queue whatsoever, and boy have I trained. I am currently waiting for a 45 day skill to finish. It's got something like 5 days left. All the while, I've had a blast playing with my corpmates. If you wanted some sort of magical way to suddenly be on the same level as an older player, please, describe it. I actually want to know how you think this game should work. This is as nice as I get. Best quote ever https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4137165#post4137165
Karak Kashada Dispensation 26	Posted - 2014.04.11 03:56:00 - [206] - Quote masternerdguy wrote: Karak Kashada wrote: Erufen Rito wrote: Care to enlighten me, I simply cannot see it. No, I do not care to. It is there as plain as day. If you cannot see it, you didn't ever read it. At least, that is the only polite conclusion I can offer. You ever considered running for political office? No. Have you ever considered getting an education?
Yato Shihari The TERRA Guardians of Serenity 2	Posted - 2014.04.11 03:57:00 - [207] - Quote Sure you can buy in-game currency with real money, but I (among many others) choose not to. To me, that takes most of the achievement out of the game. So you can't say in-game currency isn't a reward. There is plenty of stuff to do while you wait for skills, it's just a matter of being adventurous and/or finding a good group of people to play with. What's the alternative? Grinding all day long for my next skill level? No thanks.
Karak Kashada Dispensation 26	Posted - 2014.04.11 04:18:00 - [208] - Quote Webvan wrote: Karak Kashada wrote: If you are an EVE veteran, I salute you. You have done what I cannotGÇöand will notGÇödo; you have endured the perpetual training cycles required to, at last, land you in the place you wanted to be. My time is simply worth more than what EVE offers in exchange. If you are thinking about joining EVE, consider yourself forewarned. If what you say is true, then no vet would ever roll an alt other than for forum trolling. I mean your typical low SP (1-10m) alt. Not speaking of account alts/multi-accounts, just regular specialized alts on the same vet account. But we do, and they are a blast to play, so much so CCP now offers muti-character training using PLEX. Since EVE's pilot-advancement mechanism is "hurry up and wait," I would expect the opposite of what you posit. I would expect ALL players to roll alts, seeing as how they can passively get an upgraded pilot with a different skill set while they play their "main." Webvan wrote: Prob is you are dreaming too big? This isn't the typical level progression mmo where you cap out and show off your micro-rewards, really bored, and then play something else while you wait for the next expansion. Fact is low SP characters are a blast to play, if you just leave all the other-game thinking at the door. I hear and understand your point. I didn't start EVE with a measuring rod dragged along from another MMO. I have judged it on its own merits. Again, the point in the OP is not a fairy-tale. It is how EVE character/pilot progression is done. That one player ignores it and finds in the game other things that he enjoys, while another is turned off by it and chooses not to attempt to convince himself that he will enjoy the game in spite of it by engaging in busyworkGÇöthose are individual choices. They don't bear on the actuality of the mechanism in question. Webvan wrote: But I did it too to some degree, big plans and ideas and all that, apart from my love for exploration/hacking (before the damn mini-game crap that killed it for me) which is/was easy early on. Now I'm quite content honing out T2 frig combat skills, cross-training, lots and lots of ships in my hanger from frigs on up to BS' (at least on one of my characters), one month skill que plans about the limit any longer. The best-laid plans of mice and men often go awry. Those other games just play with your head, they hire psychologists to find out how to mesmerize you long enough to get their hands in your money pocket. Nothing developed around actual fun-factor really, but around the wallet and whatever level of fun they can squeeze out of that focus. Maybe time to relearn how to just have fun? That's just it. I don't find EVE to be much fun. And I believe it would be more fun if there were a greater correlationGÇönot absolute, mind you, just greaterGÇöbetween the time I spend playing and the time it takes to acquire the skills that unlock ships/mods. For all the talk of creativity in this thread, it seems that no one here can (or perhaps has even tried to) stretch his own mind to conceive that maybe, just maybe, CCP *hasn't* found the best way to handle player-pilot development. I'm not saying they should copy everyone else. But I, and others who have posted here, are clearly disenchanted of the current system. And it sounds like others, who are inclined to agree that they dislike it, have given up and concluded that they'll just look the other way.
Malcolm Shinhwa Bad Touches 1809	Posted - 2014.04.11 04:20:00 - [209] - Quote The OP has self identified as someone not best suited for EvE. Congratulations OP, you just won EvE. Dammit. "You're a d-bag. But you're a caring d-bag." -- Sindel Pellion *** Psychotic Monk and DJ FunkyBacon for CSM ***
Caviar Liberta Moira. Villore Accords 512	Posted - 2014.04.11 04:26:00 - [210] - Quote Volar Kang wrote: LOL, read the title and thought it was a thread about having long waits to group up in null alliance fleets, left disappointed. Was expecting it to be another "why so many patches ccp thread".



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